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Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.08.15 01:44:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
They're not skills for the sake of skills, they're skills for the sake of time.

They are a waste of time and doesn't add any enjoyment for anyone. Yes I have over 10.5 million SP in learning skills spread across my chars and I can't wait to see them removed.

eliminator2
Gallente
Vindicated Blast.
Posted - 2010.08.15 12:27:00 - [32]
 

i guess the implants that give you more attributes are a waste of time eh lets remove them as well
hell for sake of it why not remove cap skills as well they help alot but i cba to actually train em... on second thought remove all skills cause i cba to train em

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.08.15 16:01:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Sokratesz on 15/08/2010 16:00:59

Originally by: eliminator2
i guess the implants that give you more attributes are a waste of time eh lets remove them as well
hell for sake of it why not remove cap skills as well they help alot but i cba to actually train em... on second thought remove all skills cause i cba to train em


Wow, look how dumb your character is.

Implants I consider OK - there's quite a few people who would disagree, but they have an associated cost and active risk of losing them (provided you undock..) so I don't see much of a problem there.

Other skills have associated benefits as well - improvements left and right, ability to fit certain modules etc, and therefor aren't just there for the sake of skills.

DontMindMe JustPassnThru
Posted - 2010.08.15 17:20:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
They're not skills for the sake of skills, they're skills for the sake of time.

Don't spread this secret around or anything, but in EVE skills are trained over periods of time. The learning grind is spending time training skills, in order to save you time training skills. Its a bizarre circle of tedium which pushes new players into stupid un-fun nonsense ("Hey, newbie, be sure to spend the first two weeks in your Ibis not getting better at killing things or flying your ship, but on training skills that will grant you a training payback in 6 months (if you don't get bored and quit by then)!") at the very time when they should be at their most wide-eyed and enthusiastic about this exciting new world they've entered.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.15 21:06:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: DontMindMe JustPassnThru
EVE skills are trained over periods of time.


... which is why being able to train the exact same skills as anybody else, but being able to do it quicker saves time.
There is no real difference between implants and skills other than the fact that you need implants for each jump clone and they're a good bit easier to lose since losing skills is generally pretty rare as long as you're not a total tard.

Originally by: DontMindMe JustPassnThru

Its a bizarre circle of tedium which pushes new players into stupid un-fun nonsense


No, it doesn't. This is just simple. If you do not want to train learning skills at first and want to get into a fast tackling Rifter... then do that. If new players can't figure that out for themselves or if they listen to bad advice, well, that's part of EVE too. Should we remove Exhumers because some new players will be convinced that they have to train right to a Hulk the very first thing they do, and forget everything else?

Yet-a-gain, there is absolutely no reason that a new pilot cannot pretend that learning skills don't exist (which is what everybody arguing against them wants anyways) and train for whatever they want. If learning skills are eliminated... players will do the exact same thing they can choose to do now, except there will be no choice and it will be mandatory. And this because some folks claims that the degree of choice offered right now is really an interdict because there are potential advantages to some choices.

Meh.

Yeay Fritg
Caldari
Confrerie de Kaedri
Cluster Of Rebirth
Posted - 2010.08.16 10:49:00 - [36]
 

Hello,

When are planned the Meeting Minutes ?

May we have the CCP purged version and the CSM version ?

Cheers,
Yeay

Gilgamesh1980
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
Posted - 2010.08.16 12:49:00 - [37]
 

how about having a SINGLE skill 'learning'

with this each level of learning will grant you 5 points you can allocate to your attributes, meaning that in total you can have 25 point for remap each year

I am sure the numbers can be figured out but to me it seems to be the most easily executable and woudl update the system more to be in line of the remap functions


Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.16 13:02:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
No, it doesn't. This is just simple. If you do not want to train learning skills at first and want to get into a fast tackling Rifter... then do that. If new players can't figure that out for themselves or if they listen to bad advice, well, that's part of EVE too. Should we remove Exhumers because some new players will be convinced that they have to train right to a Hulk the very first thing they do, and forget everything else?


Bitter old vets like you and I understand this, Finn. But noobs do not, and they also typically do not understand the tradeoffs involved -- all they see is "WTF? I've got to train these skills in order to not waste time training the rest of the skills?".

CCP has stated during a previous CSM that they would like to dump learning skills, but were unsure of how to do so. They want to do it because it hinders noob retention. Keep in mind that the typical noob quits playing EVE; we are all non-typical noobs.

The recent addition of the skillpoints bonus code gives them a clear way to implement something. It wasn't something they just whipped together during the Summit to address the long downtime; they'd already programmed it.

This makes it pretty obvious to me that they will do something about learning skills at some point. Therefore, I felt it was important to get a proposal on the table that ensured that current players who were patient and long-term focused and trained the skills didn't get screwed. That's why I raised the issue with CSM.

TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.08.16 13:23:00 - [39]
 

Raw logs available from the Wiki or via the CSM Database.

Summary versions of the minutes are in progress and will be caught up as soon as possible.

Yeay Fritg
Caldari
Confrerie de Kaedri
Cluster Of Rebirth
Posted - 2010.08.16 14:25:00 - [40]
 

Thanks a lot :-)

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.16 16:51:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

Bitter old vets like you and I understand this, Finn. But noobs do not, and they also typically do not understand the tradeoffs involved -- all they see is "WTF? I've got to train these skills in order to not waste time training the rest of the skills?".
CCP has stated during a previous CSM that they would like to dump learning skills, but were unsure of how to do so. They want to do it because it hinders noob retention. Keep in mind that the typical noob quits playing EVE; we are all non-typical noobs.


I grok that, honestly and truly.
And if CCP is going to scrap LS's, there might as well be a CSM proposal for how to do that, but...
The reason that most noob subscribers leave the game isn't some fault of the game, it's because EVE is inherently a niche product.

EVE is a PvP MMO where most other such titles are FPS games. EVE has a tremendously harsh death penalty and a player-driven economy to support (and take advantage of) the use and loss of ships. It revolves around a harsh and unforgiving universe where players fight for everything from market share to viable trade routes to control of hundreds of star systems in 0.0 space. It's got a famous learning curve.

The reason most noobs don't stick around is because EVE is not their kind of a game.
That won't ever change unless and until CCP changes EVE enough that it's no longer what we've all known as EVE; that is, if CCP decides that rather than being a quality niche product they want real market share, and kill the game in order to get it.
That does not seem like a good path for the playerbase, although I'm sure CCP's accountants would love it.

I understand that it looks like CCP may implement something like that at some point... and if they're going to they might as well be given some hints so they don't totally **** it sideways. But far better would be simply not fixing it since it's not actually broken.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.16 21:16:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
I understand that it looks like CCP may implement something like that at some point... and if they're going to they might as well be given some hints so they don't totally **** it sideways. But far better would be simply not fixing it since it's not actually broken.

I appreciate your perspective, and with my purist hat on, I might even agree with it. But when I put my game-designer hat on, I don't like learning skills so much, and when I put my business hat on, I like then even less.

EVE will, of course, always be a game with a learning cliff. But from a business perspective, raising the noob retention rate even 1% is a huge win in the long term.

In any case, the ball's in their court now, it will be interesting to see what happens.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.08.16 21:37:00 - [43]
 

If they do away with learning skills they should reimburse players for the sp. This will actually benefit newer players more than older players. While an older player may be able to throw that 45 days of training into 2 or 3 skills they have at level 4 and immediately get them to level 5 (@ +5% gain in each skill for a total of @ +10%-15%) a newer player will be able to throw that 45 days of training into 2 or 3 skills bringing them from level 0 to level 4. (@ plus 20% per skill for a total of = @40 -60% improvement)

Yeay Fritg
Caldari
Confrerie de Kaedri
Cluster Of Rebirth
Posted - 2010.08.17 11:42:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Yeay Fritg on 17/08/2010 11:49:24
Edited by: Yeay Fritg on 17/08/2010 11:42:11
Hello,

What about the Dev blog in the resume ?

'
Plucking the harp one more time

I wanted to bring up the CSM again, before signing off on this blog. Mass-testing is not just about data, or testing fixes, it is about involving the EVE community in assessing the overall quality of EVE. We feel very strongly that EVE's players must be involved, at some level, in the discussion about the quality of the game. You folks are, after all, the ones who play it day in and day out. You spend your free hours in the universe which we've built, so you should always have a say in how good, or bad, you think that universe is working. Obviously, it isn't feasible for us to have one-on-one discussions with everyone, so we have to find some more workable middle ground. We believe we've found a very appropriate one in the CSM. These are the people whom you all elect to represent you to CCP. These are the people who will carry your issues, your gripes, and your kudos to us.

We have struck up a new commitment with the CSM to build a sustainable and open dialog between CCP and the players about the quality and performance of EVE. This means that the CSM will be able to bring concerns to us more readily and that we can, in return, work together to ensure that we effectively communicate about those issues with all of you. This isn't limited to just the current causes of lag, but any issue that may crop up later that makes EVE run poorly, or limits the ability for people to have amazing 1000+ fleet fight once again. We feel this is a very positive change and look forward to working more closely with the CSM towards more effective communication and better mass-tests.
'

Waiting Backlog point with impatience.

If it's somewhere, please, link me the page.

Cheers,
Yeay

Sinister Dextor
Posted - 2010.08.18 09:10:00 - [45]
 

A problem with Learning skills, they put noobs off the game? The problem was the idiots in the noob help channel spamming 'TRAIN LEARNING SKILLS FIRST!!!'' at all the new players, when better advice was to encourage them to train up what skills they needed to make a start in game, and get on playing and enjoying themselves, then to train Learning as they went along.

This situation has unfortunately been compounded by the present character creation system, which lets face it, is more geared to the creation of Alts than for completely new players. This, I believe is where you should be focusing your attention.

Why are people supporting the idea of removing Learning skills? Simple, self-interest, everyone has their eye on the bundle of skill points that they hope and expect to receive to re-allocate. They want to escape the consequences of choice they made in game, always he worst impulse in Eve.

This whole endeavour is misdirected, in my opinion, what needs addressing is the present Character creation system, and we would be better served by discouraging CCP from implementing the trend towards skillpoint re-allocation.

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2010.08.18 13:01:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Sinister Dextor
Why are people supporting the idea of removing Learning skills? Simple, self-interest, everyone has their eye on the bundle of skill points that they hope and expect to receive to re-allocate. They want to escape the consequences of choice they made in game, always he worst impulse in Eve.

This whole endeavour is misdirected, in my opinion, what needs addressing is the present Character creation system, and we would be better served by discouraging CCP from implementing the trend towards skillpoint re-allocation.


Yep. The best thing we can do now is take note of the 4 CSMs that spoke out and voted against this proposal and make sure they get our votes next time and the others don't. This issue, more than any other, probably decided where my CSM vote will go next round.

Vilgan Mazran
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.08.18 14:08:00 - [47]
 

As someone who has tried to get friends into this game, I'm a big fan of removing learning skills. The 3 main problems I've had: 1) Tutorial very boring, 2) They make it through the tutorial but do the math and start doing learning skills and interest is gone when they are done, 3) No customizeable avatar that they can identify with (female friends for this one). I'd love to see something done about #2, as its hard to maintain interest in eve in those initial stages and realizing that the best thing they can do long term is to not play the game for a few days/weeks at the start certainly doesn't help things. Sure, they could not train learning skills. However, the typical gamer who might be interested in Eve is typically going to be the type that tends to min/max to some degree and telling them not to train learning skills conflicts with what seems to be the best "long term" plan.

I also disagree with any notion that learning skills add something to the game. What do they add? There is no long term customization since you need them all except maybe charisma. Its not like you can train 1 learning skill to 6 and the others only to 5 or something. When I make choices training in Eve, I need to choose between different ships or specializing more in 1 ship or learning a new one. There is no similar choice w/ learning skills because I need perc/will for ALL the ship/weapon skills and I need int/mem for ALL the support skills. All they seem to add is a patience test for how long can you wait to train real skills in order to benefit long term. I personally think we've got enough patience tests in Eve, and removing the learning skill one will be a nice improvement to the game.

Stethane
Posted - 2010.08.18 22:00:00 - [48]
 

Hi,


I'm one of those unfortunate noobs who recently created an account, focused on my learning skills, and I'm now working toward others. (Actually I created the account several months ago on a trial, real life came up, and I just got back to the game last week, but still: new player.)


After reading the minutes of the meeting, I would like to offer some feedback as a new player.

1. There was some concern in the minutes that refunding SP to everyone would hurt new players more than help them because of the amount of SP the veteran players would recieve.

I offer this as a possible solution--though I understand it could be quite the headache from the coding side. Perhaps refunded points from Learning Skills could only be reallocated to skills with the same Training Time Multiplier.

For example: points that have been refunded to me from Analytical Mind (x1 multiplier) could be invested in mining, or other low multiplier skills. But not Deep Core Mining (x6 multiplier.)

It would minimize the negative effects on newer characters that invested their initial time in Learning Skills, while giving veteran players who may have chosen to ignore certain skill groups a chance to invest them, and at the same time not 'widen the gap' as it were.


2. Offer characters a different avenue for increased skill progression that does not slow down initial game progression and exploration.



My 'problem' with skill progression as a new player is that by investing the time to max out learning skills I create a lull in my game play where I have zero motivation to play my character until other skills 'catchup'. The inflated game economy has made it so I have already purchased a bigger, better, ship for mining--one whose hold size makes it the equivalent of 23 mining trips on my current frigate. It seems kind of silly to mine anything in my frigate for the next 4 days while I want for my ship flying skills to catch up. So: I've done my starter missions, I have my newer, better ship waiting for me, and my skill progression is on a static time table, what can I do? No much. So I don't log into the game.

So I suggest two very different ways to replace the Learning Skills that would make character development a bit faster, and a bit more player orientated:

a) Implement primary/secondary stat increases from capping out skills with lower multipliers in their respective disciplines. Example: Taking 3 Ranks of Industry before learning 1 rank in Mass Production, vs: Taking 5 Ranks of Industry before learning 1 Rank in Mass Production. Taking the time to gain 5 ranks of industry first would shorten the time it takes to learn 1 rank Mass Production. (Obviously it would still take longer overall learning 5 ranks + 1 rank, vs. 3 ranks + 1 rank 1, but that that 1 rank in Mass Production--and subsequent ones, would be faster. The character increases their stats/learning speed of higher skills by completing the ranks of their lower ones.

Or

b) Grant bonus skill points from completing missions related to the discipline you are training in. If I'm waiting 10 days for Strip Mining to finish, it'd be nice if I could speed up the process by doing mining missions in the game. Maybe work towards removing a day or two off the clock. It's not much, but it gives me an excuse to play the game.


I know most of you vets don't need that, you have other skills that allow you to do other things while your current skills are training. However as a new player in a Frigate, you're a bit limited in your choices, and it'd be nice to have missions increase the rate you learn your desired skills.

Thank you for your time!

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.08.19 02:52:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Stethane
Hi,


I'm one of those unfortunate noobs who recently created an account, focused on my learning skills, and I'm now working toward others.....

1. There was some concern in the minutes that refunding SP to everyone would hurt new players more than help them because of the amount of SP the veteran players would recieve.


This concern is simply unfounded. Any time you give players a lump sum of skill points it will benefit newer players more than older players. The gap between older and newer players is always decreased when this happens.

You are not the only one who trained allot of learning skills when you started. So you will not be the only new player who will have the opportunity to dump those sp into different areas. That sp dump won't mean that much to a player who has years of training behind him.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.19 13:29:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Stethane
Hi,


I'm one of those unfortunate noobs who recently created an account, focused on my learning skills, and I'm now working toward others.....

1. There was some concern in the minutes that refunding SP to everyone would hurt new players more than help them because of the amount of SP the veteran players would recieve.


This concern is simply unfounded. Any time you give players a lump sum of skill points it will benefit newer players more than older players. The gap between older and newer players is always decreased when this happens.

I personally agree with you, Cearain, but in light of the controversial nature of the proposal and the close vote, I felt it was important to amend the proposal to reflect the concerns of the CSMs who were opposed. As you will see from the minutes, I proposed doing this after the vote.

Yeay Fritg
Caldari
Confrerie de Kaedri
Cluster Of Rebirth
Posted - 2010.08.20 14:14:00 - [51]
 

Hello,

Just to know.

Are CSM making alone the meeting Minutes or CCP want to see the content and adapt it to be 'marketingly in line' prior publication ?

Cheers,
Yeay

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.20 17:44:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Yeay Fritg
Are CSM making alone the meeting Minutes or CCP want to see the content and adapt it to be 'marketingly in line' prior publication ?

The regular bi-weekly minutes are created and edited by CSM without CCP input.

The most recent summit minutes were originally created by CCP, edited and expanded by CSM, and then reviewed and released with minor edits by CCP. However, the final draft was not as broadly distributed within CCP for comment as some, in retrospect, would have liked.

Dariah Stardweller
Gallente
NO U111 Enterprises
Posted - 2010.08.22 11:15:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

I appreciate your perspective, and with my purist hat on, I might even agree with it. But when I put my game-designer hat on, I don't like learning skills so much, and when I put my business hat on, I like then even less.



Tbh I quite like the CSM a lot less when they start prefering business hats to purist hats on.

Yes, the learning skills are a pain to train, so is Gallente Battleship lvl 5. No, you don't need to train them the first 2 months of your EVE career. I honestly don't understand why anyone would do such a thing.

That being said: I wouldn't mind if they were removed if it does not slow down my training speeds and I can reinvest the skill points I have in them instantly, in whatever I like for an indefinate ammount of time, like the free points we got recently due to the long down time.


Larkonis Trassler
Doctrine.
Posted - 2010.08.22 15:23:00 - [54]
 

I personally think that learning skills are one of the biggest turn offs for new players (and, indeed, those of us who indulge in training an alt). You could argue that CCP have made the game too noob friendly with accelerated learning and two free remaps right off the bat (back in my day you started with 40k SP and had to WT15 through 5 feet of snow etc etc).

If learning skills were removed and the SP added to a pool to redistribute then everyone wins.
Older players who have trained learning skills get a pool to spend on what they like AND they have benefited over the years from the increased training times compared to some of their peers.
Those who haven't trained learning skills to a reasonable level are now on a par with vets but with nothing to show for it otherwise.
New players aren't put off by the tedium of training learning skills for several weeks in total in order to get ahead.

Yes, this is a harsh universe where your choices may or may not have an otherwise unforseen knock on effect further down the line (as a hardcore Caldari mission runner I knew found to his dismay when he made his way into Gallente space) and not everyone is cut out for this game. But through the SP reimbursement system CCP have an opportunity to get rid of perhaps the biggest bone of contention amongst new and old players alike.

Yeay Fritg
Caldari
Confrerie de Kaedri
Cluster Of Rebirth
Posted - 2010.08.23 11:22:00 - [55]
 

CSM,

You talk about CSM7 but still no news from CSM 6 ?

My priority interest is :

- Did you presented the Backlog player priority list to CCP ?
- Do you wait a Backlog resolution planning from CCP?
- Will CCP add developers to solve the Backlog ?

Please, I will be happy with Yes/No/Don't know answers.

There is no answer from your side and CCP just tell us 'looks gives we have a good carbon engine' and we know about lag again...

Are you all waiting us to get out of the game and let the people that don't see the bug playing ?

Yeay

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.23 11:48:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Yeay Fritg
1) Did you presented the Backlog player priority list to CCP ?
2) Do you wait a Backlog resolution planning from CCP?
3) Will CCP add developers to solve the Backlog ?


1) Yes (see this wiki article for details)

2) We have received some information from CCP, have some clarification requests in, and are preparing a report we hope to issue shortly.

3) We don't know.

Yeay Fritg
Caldari
Confrerie de Kaedri
Cluster Of Rebirth
Posted - 2010.08.23 14:57:00 - [57]
 

Trebor Daehdoow,

Thank you.

Now it's clear that the point is 100% on CCP side.

There is a clear post on the point.

CSM does it's part of the job as Player Concil.

Yeay

Yeay Fritg
Caldari
Confrerie de Kaedri
Cluster Of Rebirth
Posted - 2010.08.26 12:40:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Yeay Fritg on 26/08/2010 13:08:05
Hell,

May i please ask about a date yet ?

Shortly means ?

What's the point that stop the publication right now ?

CCP don't want to tell anything about Bug Resolution. I hope CSM will give us some information.

CCP, stop flashing us with pseudo Lag Dev blog please. Give us a backlog Dev Blog.

29 it's Sunday and not yet any feed-back from the previous CSM.

Regards,
Yeay


Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.26 16:06:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Yeay Fritg
May i please ask about a date yet ?

Shortly means ?

What's the point that stop the publication right now ?

I am currently writing (and rewriting... and re-rewriting) a CSM devblog (CSMblog?) that gives some details about what happened during the release planning meetings.

The reason it is taking so long is that we've been working with CCP in order to provide as much information as possible while still staying inside their comfort zone. That should be finished today.

Then after I finalize the blog posting (this weekend?) it will have to be reviewed by CCP and published. Hopefully this time next week, though we will push for it to be expedited.

We know everyone wants to know what we think you ought to know. And we think you ought to know what we know. And CCP thinks they want you to know what the CSM thinks you ought to know.

In fact, part of the reason for the delay is that we keep getting updates that go "You know, you might want to let the players know that..."

Borgh Brainbasher
Saint Industrial Services
STEEL BROTHERHOOD
Posted - 2010.08.27 10:42:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Yeay Fritg
May i please ask about a date yet ?

Shortly means ?

What's the point that stop the publication right now ?

I am currently writing (and rewriting... and re-rewriting) a CSM devblog (CSMblog?) that gives some details about what happened during the release planning meetings.

The reason it is taking so long is that we've been working with CCP in order to provide as much information as possible while still staying inside their comfort zone. That should be finished today.

Then after I finalize the blog posting (this weekend?) it will have to be reviewed by CCP and published. Hopefully this time next week, though we will push for it to be expedited.

We know everyone wants to know what we think you ought to know. And we think you ought to know what we know. And CCP thinks they want you to know what the CSM thinks you ought to know.

In fact, part of the reason for the delay is that we keep getting updates that go "You know, you might want to let the players know that..."


♥ you


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