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Redon
Minmatar
GONE RETARD BACK LATER
Posted - 2004.12.21 22:06:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Redon on 21/12/2004 22:06:34
god can u guys give minmatar some love i mean omfg. you nerfed the projectiles and now u dont boost the minmatar ships like all the other reace ships whats with that?

Image removed, use the signature settings for signature graphics please. -Omniscience

Joshua Calvert
Caldari
Rule One
Posted - 2004.12.21 22:09:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Redon
Edited by: Redon on 21/12/2004 22:06:34
god can u guys give minmatar some love i mean omfg. you nerfed the projectiles and now u dont boost the minmatar ships like all the other reace ships whats with that?

Image removed, use the signature settings for signature graphics please. -Omniscience


Ummmmmmm

mafish
Minmatar
Dashavatara
Posted - 2004.12.21 23:04:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: mafish on 21/12/2004 23:04:27
i am crossing my fingers hear but i really doubt it but hear goes.

what will happen to cap injecters cos atm i use them and when fighting a armour tanked apoc or another nicly tanked ship i can just about win but i run out of boosters. now with this extra hp put into play i will easyly run out of boosters before killing my target now imo this will destroy sheild tanks maily because you can use diogs cap relays and flux's but they all have down falls I.E -20% total cap with flux's -10% sheild boost with cap relay's and just not giving the regen needed to fight a ship that can run forever which is diog's.

so my question is are you gonna increase the ammount given or lower the cargo needed to make sure that these mods are not only usful to kill cruisers with?

i dont care about ******s why may post cry me a river, do you want cheese with that whine or call a waaaamblence i would like to know so i can ajust me set up and start planing for if this comes in

Xtro 2
Caldari
El Bastardos
EVESpace
Posted - 2004.12.22 00:14:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: OffBeaT
like i said befor and somone has too stand up for the lesser skilled players. if they cant get their hands on the t2 weopons in reasonable time, they are gona be sitting ducks up against them tuffer ships with t2 firepower. this is not gona be a good deal for them in anyway trying too take on these ships with t1 firepower. Confused


Lower skilled players shouldnt be able to compete on level pegging with their low skills, their not meant to, nor should they be able too, train up over time like the rest of us had too, there should be no shortcuts just because some wish to blow up high skilled players with their low skills and are too impatient to wait...

Xtro 2
Caldari
El Bastardos
EVESpace
Posted - 2004.12.22 00:23:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 21/12/2004 20:04:56
Why whatís so bad about 108 shield points a second with no cap drain or 80+ with hardners and T1 modules? Thatís more then an extra large shield booster T1. Perhaps we should start a new thread about is or isnít passive tanking worth it as I dont want to take over this thread. But people use passive setups so so it does need to be balanced with the new changes.



because thats 108 shield points of unhardened shields, easily broken with a volley of laser fire or em torps.

Funny yes when you have no cap but still shield boosting, not funny for you when you try and warp when you need too but you cant due to no cap.

Your arguments about passive boosting (not tanking as your not hardening anything to make yourself tougher) while interesting are unfortunatly invalid due to such a small audience (basically just yourself i see here defending your prefered setup) trying to push the gallente into your prefered system is not a valid balance choice for CCP for the masses.

Gallente simply need higher armour stats than the amarr, to compensate for the lack of gallente cap recharge over amarr, allowing them a larger armour buffer before they need to repair and disable their repairers, while the amarr as they can now would simply boost the whole time and sustain their tank.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.12.22 08:48:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 22/12/2004 09:04:36
"Funny yes when you have no cap but still shield boosting, not funny for you when you try and warp when you need too but you cant due to no cap."
You have loads of cap to warp out as without boosters draining cap reactor cap lasts a long time and lots of people have got it to work.




ĒYour arguments about passive boosting (not tanking as your not hardening anything to make yourself tougher) while interesting are unfortunatly invalid due to such a small audience (basically just yourself i see here defending your prefered setup) trying to push the gallente into your prefered system is not a valid balance choice for CCP for the masses.Ē
Go up and read again I said 80+ shield points a second with hardeners which matchís shield tanking with T1 boosters. I do use hardeners in combat. I am not trying to push CCP into my preferred system am I trying to make it so my preferred system is not made to powerful or weak compared to shield boosting because no one is thinking about it.

Just because you donít believe passive tanking works, does not mean itís useless or does not have to be thought about. If you boost someoneís shields cap by 100% or even 120% like they said first then change shield extenders to give more shield cap per module your going end up with passive tanking giving twice as much points per second as amour tanking even when you use hardeners depending on how you change extenders. As soon as T2 modules come out we will be getting 150 shield points a second with current modules and hitpoints. Now with the other changes thatís going go up to 200 or 250 perhaps even 300+ a second with hardeners and your saying we do not need to think about balancing passive tanking. Some of the ideas here would have giving passive thanking 500+ a second because they didnít think about it. Which is to powerful.

Passive tanking with the new changeís need to be thought about so it does not become to powerful or to weak. I donít know about you but 250 + shield points a second seems like a lot to me. Thatís 1250 over 5 seconds more then an extra large shield booster and that's not takeing into account the two new implants that you can use at the same time that boost passive tanking. NPC will not stand a chance on missions and 1v1 PvP would not be hard.

Estios
Minmatar
Posted - 2004.12.22 14:21:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: flummox
Originally by: j0sephine
"two complaints... then don't test. okay?"

It was exactly my point, these things prevent people from testing they were asked to do.

What is your point, if you had any to begin with?


that there are plenty of people who have ships and mods. yes, even from a month ago. if you wish to help test the game, ask the COMMUNITY for assistance in giving you ships and mods.

how many whiners does it take to change a lightbulb?
none. they just sit in the dark and ***** about it...



Calling j0 a whiner actually evidences how little clue you have about anything really

Superb points j0 as usual, if you want players to test a host of scenario's then there has to be a FC.

Without FC your results are meaningless because players on TQ have access to everything and no matter how weird YOU think a certain set up is , chances are someone out there will run it. ALL modules need to available to gauge any real tested results



Estios
Minmatar
Posted - 2004.12.22 14:32:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Hardin
All people going 'Amarr for t3h win' please remember this:

Amarr ships are heavily dependent on cap for defence and offence.

Any change which means it is going to take longer to kill an opponent should realise that laser users (heavy cap use) will be penalised.

An Amarr ship with two large reppers and full set of lasers cannot keep a defence and offence going for more than a few minutes (and that is with maxed skills) unless they use cap injectors or pack spare slots with cap relay/rechargers (reducing general effectiveness)

If combat last longer then Amarr ships are going to run out of cap and die.

I can understand however why this change has been brought in as it will make gankgeddon setups obsolete in small engagements (though still handy in fleet engagements) as gankers will run out of cap before their enemy actually dies.

This change in general seem to suit projectile users who have no offensive cap requirements and can therefore take their time killing things.

But as I haven't tested this yet maybe I am all wrong... Razz

Btw Devs listen to j0sephine - she knows her stuff when it comes to testing



With all due respect Hardin the above is , well utterly incorrect.
Atm if you cannot keep lasers and THE BEST tank in the game running longer than any other ship out there then your set up sucks

I have an Apoc which tanks better than any of the other BS's I own (ie all) and I can run it and all its weapons almost forever. I can go afk in 0.0 npc belts.

I will not say its 'Amarr ftw' though as I havent tested much but dont use cap as a reason to defend Amarr ships because cap effects ALL ships and Amarr have the most anyway

I did just create a well hardened Scorp with 26 k shields though. NOTHING can kill that in the time it takes me to log off and disapear ugh


Estios
Minmatar
Posted - 2004.12.22 14:40:00 - [99]
 

Edited by: Estios on 22/12/2004 14:47:18
Originally by: Hardin


I don't want to turn this into just an Amarr vs the world arguement however our main weapon is pretty much the most cap intensive that exists.

Therefore the longer any fight lasts the more cap problems we will have. This change therefore directly impacts on laser users in a larger way than the other races.




Hmm you seem to be on a roll here Very Happy

Your weapons also happen to be the best weapons in game, only offset by their cap usage which is somewhat negated by your ship bonuses.

Your ships get no direct gun bonuses such as extra dmg because their base stats are good enough to not need it

You then mention that a longer fight will require more cap even though your ships have the most cap. Remember you dont HAVE to fit Lasers to an Amarr ship do you but why wouldnt you when they have the best stats and you wouldnt get the Hybrid or projectile bonuses other ships need to make their guns match

Also you fail to mention ammo at all in your post despite another huge benefit of longer combat being ammo capacity and reload times. A ship which has to stop firing for 10 seconds every 12 rounds or whatever 1400's hold (see its been that long since I fired one) is being effected much more than a laser firing ship which just keeps dishing dmg.

Again I dont know if this change is good or bad yet as I havent tested but attempting to defend Amarr vessels without really being fair isnt helping

Sorry dude, I still lub you but your argument is a little thin atm



Estios
Minmatar
Posted - 2004.12.22 14:50:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Hardin


Cap boosters for instance. You can only fit 8 x 800 cap boosters in an Apoc cargo hold at the moment. That is fine if engagements are typically short - but if engagements drag on you will soon run out of boosters.




I guess Im just on your case atm, sorry bud ...BUT ...what sort of argument is that

You can fit the MOST Cap boosters in your hold because you dont have to carry ammo.

You need to ask a Megathron or AC using Tempest pilot how many Cap boosters he can fit in his cargo with all his ammo


Xtro 2
Caldari
El Bastardos
EVESpace
Posted - 2004.12.22 16:31:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 22/12/2004 09:04:36
"Funny yes when you have no cap but still shield boosting, not funny for you when you try and warp when you need too but you cant due to no cap."
You have loads of cap to warp out as without boosters draining cap reactor cap lasts a long time and lots of people have got it to work.




ĒYour arguments about passive boosting (not tanking as your not hardening anything to make yourself tougher) while interesting are unfortunatly invalid due to such a small audience (basically just yourself i see here defending your prefered setup) trying to push the gallente into your prefered system is not a valid balance choice for CCP for the masses.Ē

Go up and read again I said 80+ shield points a second with hardeners which matchís shield tanking with T1 boosters. I do use hardeners in combat. I am not trying to push CCP into my preferred system am I trying to make it so my preferred system is not made to powerful or weak compared to shield boosting because no one is thinking about it.

Just because you donít believe passive tanking works, does not mean itís useless or does not have to be thought about. If you boost someoneís shields cap by 100% or even 120% like they said first then change shield extenders to give more shield cap per module your going end up with passive tanking giving twice as much points per second as amour tanking even when you use hardeners depending on how you change extenders. As soon as T2 modules come out we will be getting 150 shield points a second with current modules and hitpoints. Now with the other changes thatís going go up to 200 or 250 perhaps even 300+ a second with hardeners and your saying we do not need to think about balancing passive tanking. Some of the ideas here would have giving passive thanking 500+ a second because they didnít think about it. Which is to powerful.

Passive tanking with the new changeís need to be thought about so it does not become to powerful or to weak. I donít know about you but 250 + shield points a second seems like a lot to me. Thatís 1250 over 5 seconds more then an extra large shield booster and that's not takeing into account the two new implants that you can use at the same time that boost passive tanking. NPC will not stand a chance on missions and 1v1 PvP would not be hard.



Passive does work and yes myself+corp mates have tested it, however good your shields boost, your problem pvp wise is still that your cap only lasts so long to fire with or be able to warp off, invulnerability means little if you have limited fight back ability.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.12.22 17:45:00 - [102]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 22/12/2004 18:01:46
Edited by: Pottsey on 22/12/2004 17:54:52
If you use missiles or projectileís the passive reactor charge should be fast enough that the drain does not matter and you should be able to warp off if no one is scrabbling you. Even if the reactor is not enough you should be able to shoot for well over 30mins and still warp out with projectiles.

Although I have heard of lasers being used with passive setupís it seems extremely hard due to the high cap usage. I use 6 blasters and find without nos I can fight for 10 minuets any longer and cap is a problem and I cannot warp out. My reactor skills are at level 1. If I equipped lasers cap would run out in well under 5 minuets which is a problem. So I do kind of agree with you passive does not work well with certain weapons. Ships with 8 blaster or 8 laser do not work to well with passive setups.

Passive setups are certainly not suitable for all ships or all people.
Anyway I am posting too much about passive setups so I will try to cut down. If you want to talk about it start another thread. I dont want to keep posting about it in here unless its to do with balancing and how the hitpoints will effect it. Speaking of which has anyone worked out how the new scorp hitpoints will effect passive tanking on a scorp?


Redon
Minmatar
GONE RETARD BACK LATER
Posted - 2004.12.22 22:29:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Originally by: Redon
Edited by: Redon on 21/12/2004 22:06:34
god can u guys give minmatar some love i mean omfg. you nerfed the projectiles and now u dont boost the minmatar ships like all the other reace ships whats with that?

Image removed, use the signature settings for signature graphics please. -Omniscience


Ummmmmmm



joshua thats long overdue about the guns. they have sucked since they nerfed them oh what was it like 5months ago. im talking about the crappy new bonuses to shields, armor, structure.

Image removed, use the signature settings for signature graphics please. -Omniscience

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2004.12.23 13:07:00 - [104]
 

Minmatar are nothing but slaves
And this will get them earlier graves
It serves them right
To lose every fight
Or so my Amarrian shrink says.

Jael Markinsen
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.12.23 18:25:00 - [105]
 

lol, you are busting me up with that stuff! you go man!


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