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Gaius Kador
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2004.12.21 11:25:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
Ahh, but forgive me if im wrong here, but dont most of u shave to choose between high damage, low armour and low damage high armour? not both?


One or the other, yes.

Ebedar
Gallente
Primary Intelligence
Posted - 2004.12.21 11:34:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: j0sephine
How many fanbois does it take to change a lightbulb?
None. They just sit in the dark, claim it's fine as it is and tell everyone who don't like it to leave...

Very Happy

Hardin
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.21 12:03:00 - [63]
 



I don't want to turn this into just an Amarr vs the world arguement however our main weapon is pretty much the most cap intensive that exists.

Therefore the longer any fight lasts the more cap problems we will have. This change therefore directly impacts on laser users in a larger way than the other races.

It also means EW ships like Scorpions become even more uber. With extra shields/armour/structure they have even more time to cycle jam everything on the battlefield.

Amarr ships have crap EW. The only EW we can have is at the expense of cap rechargers/relays. We also have only two damage types. Our defences against jamming are limited - kill the jammer quick (no longer so easy due to this change) or fit sensor boosters/radar backups but we cannot fit those countermeasures if battles take longer as we will need to fit cap relays and cap rechargers in order to sustain power.

As I said before I am generally like these changes but the developers do need to take these cap use issues into account. I think from TomB's post that they are to some extent but they need to look at the whole picture.

Cap boosters for instance. You can only fit 8 x 800 cap boosters in an Apoc cargo hold at the moment. That is fine if engagements are typically short - but if engagements drag on you will soon run out of boosters.

As I have said I have not tested this yet (being at work) but these seem like obvious drawbacks to the change.

I am also pointing out to those who are saying that with extra armour Amarr will be ubertanks that ubertank is pointless if you are jammed or have run out of cap...

Finally, just one other thing for the Devs to think about Smile If all ships have so much extra shield/armour/structure then tanking sentries in 0.4 to 0.1 becomes even easier. I forsee an increase in low-sec gate camping unless sentry gun damage is also upped. Or maybe that should be welcomed Wink



Khaldorn Murino
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.12.21 12:08:00 - [64]
 

So, my lady loving Amarrian advesary.

You wish for Amarr ships to be able to tank indefintely, deal more than two types of damages and have good ew defence. As well as have powerful well tracking weapons, and rocking armour? .. so what indeed would be your weaknesss?


Gaius Kador
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2004.12.21 12:13:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
So, my lady loving Amarrian advesary.

You wish for Amarr ships to be able to tank indefintely, deal more than two types of damages and have good ew defence. As well as have powerful well tracking weapons, and rocking armour? .. so what indeed would be your weaknesss?




He did not say that ;)

Hardin
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.21 12:19:00 - [66]
 

Indeed I didn't...

Discorporation
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.12.21 12:21:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Discorporation on 21/12/2004 12:21:36
Lasers use fkall cap when you got your skills maxed, so that's not really an argument, imo

Apocs will do fine, if not amazing, after a change like this.

Amarr ships can out-cap practically every other vessel. Laser cap-drain help balance this (on ships other then apocs), but they use little cap atm.

7.5% cap/lvl better?

Smile

Khaldorn Murino
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.12.21 12:25:00 - [68]
 

/ruffles Hardins sparse hair follicles.

Dude, i tell you what, ill swap chars with you for a day, and then we can see things from the other side. :)

Loka
Gallente
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2004.12.21 12:34:00 - [69]
 

well my Blastersetup suxx more cap than any of your lasers. Together with the MWD i HAVE to fit, you must admit, that the Gallente Blasterthsips are the most capintensive ships in EVE.

Dont come me with Amarr. When i already read, "damn i cant use my full offense AND defense for more than 10 min..." Damn i struggle doing it for 4 min!!!!!!!!

Most Megathron pilots not even have the ability to fit more than one large AR and one med!

Siddy
Minmatar
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.21 13:28:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Hardin
All people going 'Amarr for t3h win' please remember this:

Amarr ships are heavily dependent on cap for defence and offence.

Any change which means it is going to take longer to kill an opponent should realise that laser users (heavy cap use) will be penalised.

An Amarr ship with two large reppers and full set of lasers cannot keep a defence and offence going for more than a few minutes (and that is with maxed skills) unless they use cap injectors or pack spare slots with cap relay/rechargers (reducing general effectiveness)




i am NPC huntting in one, so dont try to fool us!

Apoch can without no problems use Beams and armor tank indefinetly

Hardin
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.21 13:56:00 - [71]
 

I am going to shut up now...

This is clearly a Minmatar conspiracyWink

H Zub
Captain Morgan Society
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.21 13:59:00 - [72]
 

This change may sound good, but is it really?

After this change how can you fight solo? Its hard as it is already to pick a fight, and easy for anyone who dont want to fight to just get away or stay out of pvp. If we double the hit points of all ships anyone who wish to escape will reach the gate or station before his ship will explode, even when webified. Could this be what CCP want? I truly hope thats not the case.

I'm not interested in big blob wars, if you try to force me I'll simply find another game.

Khaldorn Murino
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.12.21 14:22:00 - [73]
 

lads lads lads lads, lets hit the chill pills a bit eh?

Its just for testing and talking about afaik so far, so theres no need to panic, just put forth your view across and explain why, i think thats what they want.

Im sure they've thought about alot of this stuff and not just spent 5 minutes making up arbitary values.

Siddy
Minmatar
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.21 14:26:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
lads lads lads lads, lets hit the chill pills a bit eh?

Its just for testing and talking about afaik so far, so theres no need to panic, just put forth your view across and explain why, i think thats what they want.

Im sure they've thought about alot of this stuff and not just spent 5 minutes making up arbitary values.


like they did when they fixed projektiles? right?

Lifewire
TunDraGon
Posted - 2004.12.21 14:27:00 - [75]
 

It´s quite simple: tanking will get improved! This means a Scorpion with 15000 shield, 8 hardeners will be a very safe ship to travel. If you jump into an enemy team of 3 ships, just activate hardeners and log of. ugh Who will destroy 30000 hitpoints in 3 minutes if 15000 of these hitpoints have resistances about 70-80%???

Loka
Gallente
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2004.12.21 14:30:00 - [76]
 

well targets not webbed, will jump either. Webbed targets wont make it either, if they dont fight. Except you dont bring the firepower to break his tank.

1vs1 fights are always outanked or beeing a dmg*****. In both scenarios more HP wont change anything.

Not only your oponent has more but you too. If you break his tank or dry his cap, he will sink. That simple.

More HP will make a huge different in fleetbattles and will bring more setups ot the light.

Well we will see if its good or bad. But imo its too early to say either. NPC hunting must as ballanced as mining and PvP.

Khaldorn Murino
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.12.21 14:38:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Siddy
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
lads lads lads lads, lets hit the chill pills a bit eh?

Its just for testing and talking about afaik so far, so theres no need to panic, just put forth your view across and explain why, i think thats what they want.

Im sure they've thought about alot of this stuff and not just spent 5 minutes making up arbitary values.


like they did when they fixed projektiles? right?


I stand corrected.

flummox
Posted - 2004.12.21 14:40:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Terle
Originally by: flummox
Originally by: j0sephine
"that there are plenty of people who have ships and mods. yes, even from a month ago. if you wish to help test the game, ask the COMMUNITY for assistance in giving you ships and mods."

Yes, if i wish to help to test the game, i have to ask other players to provide me with means to perform the tests and take extra time to jump through all involved hoops. The question remains -- how is that making the test server any more efficient?


"how many whiners does it take to change a lightbulb?
none. they just sit in the dark and ***** about it..."


How many fanbois does it take to change a lightbulb?
None. They just sit in the dark, claim it's fine as it is and tell everyone who don't like it to leave...


how was i being a "fanboi" ?? by giving you suggestions to help solve your problem ?? that makes me a fanboy?

so you wanted to whine but not get solutions to the problem? what, you just wanted someone to listen to you? my ex-girlfriend used to do that to me all the time. she'd moan and complain about something and after listening i'd offer my opinions. she'd just cry more and say, "i just wanted someone to listen to meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! waaah!"

okay. well, have fun with your problem then. i choose to do something about it instead of just whining.

ugh


You seem to be negating yourself with your basic premise, the "community" on the test server. Last time I logged onto the test server there were exactly 9 people on. It seems the only one "whining" here is you. Whining meaning complaining with no apparent reason, a concept you apparently do not get Flummox.

Of course, I highly doubt you'll get the meaning of this post either, it doesn't say what you want it too hehe.

BTW, I think the fanboi turnaround suited Flummox perfectly Josephine Laughing


really? exactly how am i the one whining? and what's the topic i'm whining about? could you quote me where i am complaining about something but not doing anything about it?

you are dead wrong on everything in your post about me. fanboi? uh, okay. if "hating whiney people who cry to their god/dev instead of picking up their own pieces" makes me a fanboi, then i must be in a parralel universe.

okay. maybe i'm a little irritated about FCC because we've been hearing people WHINE about it for 3 months now. and, those WHINERS, and even the people who ask nicely, have been given the answer to their problem. they said they'd look into it. there were thread after thread posted about this subject during Shiva testing. okay? it's getting old...

yeah. i'm a fanboi alright. pfffffffffff!

i ain't the one whining about FCC, Terle. only thing i can be said to whine about would be people who rag on about topics that have been fussed over for months.

and, yes, i'm a fanboi of stamping out ignorance...

Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.12.21 14:59:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Hardin
I am going to shut up now...

This is clearly a Minmatar conspiracyWink


its better, cause rails/blaster use much more cap then lasers Wink

Ever seen your cap when you activate your blasters on a megathron?

Sforza
Gallente
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.21 15:03:00 - [80]
 

Hardin probably hasnt actually seen the cap usage on blasters, as he and the rest of PIE (admirably, in my view) only fly Amarr ships.

I also remember when lasers did the rare feat of managing to both suck and blow at the same time Very Happy

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2004.12.21 15:49:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 21/12/2004 15:50:56
A humble suggestion... actually READ the dev blog before you post your opinion here, including the dev responses included in it. Better yet, do as the post asks and actually try it out on the test server first.
PVP is concentual on the test server, so you do NOT have to fight to the death. I'm very happy the fight club will be started up there, it will help a lot.... but it certainly does not mean that zero testing can be done in the meantime.
Granted, combat to the death will be much more informative... but that will come.
And then, when you have some vague idea of how it will work in practice, form an opinion and post. Back it up with facts and observations and someone might pay attention to your opinion.
Remember, they are ASKING you for informed opinions on how to balance this... the numbers are far from final.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.12.21 18:14:00 - [82]
 

What I don’t want to happen is finding out Gallente are no longer the best passive shield tankers. It seems unfair to take a race that was the best at something for over a year and making it so they are no longer the best.

Caldari should have the most shield hitpoints and best active shield boosters.

Gallente should have the best passive shield tanking but overall less shield hitpoints then Caldari. Perhaps boost Caldari hitpoints by 100% but boost Gallente shield recharge more by 30% and shield hitpoints by 50%.

Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.12.21 19:27:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
What I don’t want to happen is finding out Gallente are no longer the best passive shield tankers. It seems unfair to take a race that was the best at something for over a year and making it so they are no longer the best.

Caldari should have the most shield hitpoints and best active shield boosters.

Gallente should have the best passive shield tanking but overall less shield hitpoints then Caldari. Perhaps boost Caldari hitpoints by 100% but boost Gallente shield recharge more by 30% and shield hitpoints by 50%.




ähh please dont disturb Devs getting PvP back in Order ok?

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.12.21 19:41:00 - [84]
 

”ähh please dont disturb Devs getting PvP back in Order ok?”
I am not trying to disturb the devs I just want them to get it right without missing it up for us lot that passive tank and this change effects more then just PvP and some of us passive tank in PvP.

If your going mess around with shield hitpoints you need to think about how its going effect passive tankers. Will it make us to powerful or will it make or worse. Right now passive tanking is balance but these change's could unbalance it.

Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.12.21 19:56:00 - [85]
 

i would laugh at anyone who does passive tanking no matter what Very Happy

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.12.21 20:03:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 21/12/2004 20:04:56
Why what’s so bad about 108 shield points a second with no cap drain or 80+ with hardners and T1 modules? That’s more then an extra large shield booster T1. Perhaps we should start a new thread about is or isn’t passive tanking worth it as I dont want to take over this thread. But people use passive setups so so it does need to be balanced with the new changes.

Gierling
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2004.12.21 20:08:00 - [87]
 

Ok can someone please explain the logic of 300% structure?

Structure has no resists, the number would have to be ridiculous big to even be remotely useable.

Hell giving a 3000% increase to structure HP wouldn't be as effective as 100% more to armour or shields when one factors in Tanking.

Unless of course, this is coming as a prereq to getting rid of Tanking (which would be great). Maybe thier planning on making all repairers unusable in combat that would give Logistics cruisers a purpose.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2004.12.21 20:26:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Gierling
Ok can someone please explain the logic of 300% structure?

Structure has no resists, the number would have to be ridiculous big to even be remotely useable.

Hell giving a 3000% increase to structure HP wouldn't be as effective as 100% more to armour or shields when one factors in Tanking.

Unless of course, this is coming as a prereq to getting rid of Tanking (which would be great). Maybe thier planning on making all repairers unusable in combat that would give Logistics cruisers a purpose.


Nah, you're wrong. 3000% to structure would be insanely better than 100% extra armor. The amount of raw damage you'd have to do is huge.

But alas, its only 300% and I doubt you'll ever be able to tank structure.
Megathron has around 9300 armor and 24000 structure while apoc has 12000 armor and 10000? structure..

Main problem right now is the balance of the megathron. Apoc's bonus makes it so lasers use less cap than hybrids, which is the stupidest thing I've heard of, since one of the main justifications for their cap bonus is they need it.

Now they don't, which lets them tank forever. Tbh giving megathron structure bonus only reinforces the fact that its better to just go in gank style, since tanking nerfs your damage significantly on the megathron, and you'll never be able to match an apoc.

Imo, megapulse need a significant range nerf so it gives people a reason to use the higher cap use lasers like megabeam/tach in ranges that don't exceed 60km. Cap use of lasers should be reset to old values or the bonus should be lowered back to 5%, when they did the laser rebalance it was clearly too much to do both.

ps: I did go on sisi and test.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.12.21 20:41:00 - [89]
 

"Hell giving a 3000% increase to structure HP wouldn't be as effective as 100% more to armour or shields when one factors in Tanking."

... To balance 3000 hp of structure with 100 hp of hardened shield/armour, you'd need your hardening/tanking be at least 97% effective. ^^;

Joshua Calvert
Caldari
Rule One
Posted - 2004.12.21 20:56:00 - [90]
 

DC,

The hybrid cap vs laser cap argument has been brought up a million times but nothing is ever done about it Rolling Eyes

Will the increased HP's result in a change of MASS for each ship?


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