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Siddy
Minmatar
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.20 19:15:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Reebo77
This could make it a lot more dangerous to fly pure damage ships like gankageddon and blasterthron. The enemy will hve more time to punish the gank/blaster before they are dead, which with no tanking could be bad news.


and not to mention that Gangeddon and Blaster tron got serios Cap problems to start with ....

Reebo77
Turbulent
Posted - 2004.12.20 19:20:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Reebo77 on 20/12/2004 19:20:16
Originally by: Siddy
Originally by: Reebo77
This could make it a lot more dangerous to fly pure damage ships like gankageddon and blasterthron. The enemy will hve more time to punish the gank/blaster before they are dead, which with no tanking could be bad news.


and not to mention that Gangeddon and Blaster tron got serios Cap problems to start with ....


Yeah that as well.

CCP please dont make my gankageddon poo to fight with Crying or Very sad

Siddy
Minmatar
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.20 19:22:00 - [33]
 

on the other hand, im shure Pottsey will be happy to test out her new Scorpion Passive shield tank...

i recon she can get 300shield/sec increase in recharge when shields hit 30% Laughing

drunkenmaster
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.20 19:29:00 - [34]
 

I have to agree with j0sephine here, the sisi environment is not up to scratch for testing.

As soon as I read the blog, I updated my sisi build, and jumped on, only to find I was still where I left myself pre-exodus launch. By which I mean, many jumps away from my main base in a poorly fitted cruiser, which was the best I could get. also, on the current sisi database, all my BS have been annihilated, due to testing lvl 4 kill missions on there. I have nothing to test, and no means to buy, or build anything.

Looking forward to the return of the FCC.

My comments regarding the blog are in the related thread on the ships/modules forum.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.12.20 19:37:00 - [35]
 

"how was i being a "fanboi" ?? by giving you suggestions to help solve your problem ?? that makes me a fanboy?"

No, by telling me to 'not test then because the test server is for the rest of us lemmings' which was your first reply.

(if that p.s. in it was supposed to be suggestion, then sorry. but it's worded vaguely enough to look rather like you're bragging "ohh look, *i* have enough ships to blow few of them, *i* can test" ... which, i hope you agree, isn't very helpful if read this way ^^


"okay. well, have fun with your problem then. i choose to do something about it instead of just whining."

I choose to do something about it -- that is, to signal the problem to the only people who can really fix it, i.e. the ones in charge of the test server.

If telling there's a problem and explaining why it is a problem is whining to you, then so be it... I just think it's more likely to get the proverbial lightbulb fixed if you actually tell the landlord that it needs fixing... rather than if you just sit quietly in dark corner, playing with piece of flint and telling yourself the few sparks you get from it are good substitute...

(but enough of it? we really went off tangent here and this has nothing to do with the subject of the thread anymore :/

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.12.20 19:41:00 - [36]
 

“Whatever it is, give it a read and make sure you test the ship hp changes on Singularity.”
81.9 hit points per second on test server with my passive shield setup. Total shields 10718 hitpoints with a Dominix.

On main server with same setup I am on 73.5 hitpoints per second and 9625 hitpoints

The change hardly seems worth it an extra 1093 shield hitpoints extra is not going to extend combat more then 10 or 30 seconds. Unless you also change large shield extenders.

If the aim is to boost the length of combat Gallente need a bigger shield boost then 50%.

For a pure passive tanking I got 112 hitpoints a second on the test server. On the main server I get 102 hitpoints per second.

So 10 points extra damage per second. How much are you planing on extending combat by? Are the large shield extenders going to be changed on the test server?





"Whatever it is,” on the other hand, im shure Pottsey will be happy to test out her new Scorpion Passive shield tank...
i recon she can get 300shield/sec increase in recharge when shields hit 30% ” give it a read and make sure you test the ship hp changes on Singularity."

Not tested yet as I don’t have the skills, Gallente ships only for me. Might try and train them up on Singularity if that’s possible.

Tautut
Amarr
Posted - 2004.12.20 19:53:00 - [37]
 

greater hitpoints = easier to log when under attack ???

Siddy
Minmatar
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.20 20:09:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
“Whatever it is, give it a read and make sure you test the ship hp changes on Singularity.”
81.9 hit points per second on test server with my passive shield setup. Total shields 10718 hitpoints with a Dominix.

On main server with same setup I am on 73.5 hitpoints per second and 9625 hitpoints

The change hardly seems worth it an extra 1093 shield hitpoints extra is not going to extend combat more then 10 or 30 seconds. Unless you also change large shield extenders.




Try scorp - it r0x0r at shield

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2004.12.20 20:15:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: j0sephine
"Whatever it is, give it a read and make sure you test the ship hp changes on Singularity."

Kieron, with all due respect... please don't ask for impossible.

There is no ships to test the hp changes with on Singularity, because the NPC market ends on tier.1 cruisers, and no one is insane enough to actually run mass-production on test server. So the best ships players can test stuff with are the basic cruisers, and whatever personal ships they have left on what, month+ old mirror?

Please, put back the FCC on test server, or give all players the /spawn command, or make a macro that seeds the market after every restart, or shut the bloody server down if no one can be arsed with any of these... whatever, just don't ask for what can't be done, because it comes through like mockery. Especially when the test in question will pretty much require blowing up large amounts of ships to 'test' this new change --;;


I would more like you to go there and test it on your current TQ loadout which should already be there, since it is a mirror of TQ.

If you are interested in further testing, you'll be pleased to know Fight Club will be reinstated on Sisi when we get some database admin love on it. However, if you are even more interested in structured testing, you might be able to get into one of the Sisi balancing teams.


what is the procedure for getting into a testing team? I've been trying for a while, asking various devs/bh on irc, and even having some friends on those teams refer to me, but so far I seem to get ignored.

I don't like the pointless duels of fcc, where no one actually cares about realistic tests, but I don't like sitting around on sisi with no mods available for my ships.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2004.12.20 20:21:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 20/12/2004 20:31:54
Edited by: Pottsey on 20/12/2004 20:22:03
”That would have put them in about 5th place from a size point of view.
Try scorp - it r0x0r at shield”


True but due to the low slots the scorp is worse at passive shield tanking then a Dominix. Though that might change with the new 120% boost to caldari. Gallente have always been the best passive shield tankers I hope they don’t swap it around so caldari suddenly become the best. Right now the scorp is not that far behind the Dominix so the 120% should put the scorp ahead.

Anyone with a scorp tested the new 120% boost? How many shield points do you get with the new boost and on the main server? Don’t have the skills to test my self.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.12.20 20:24:00 - [41]
 

"Anyone with a scorp tested the new 120% boost? Hopw many shield points do you get with the new boost and on the main server? Don’t have the skills to test my self."

I tried to, but the access to shield recharge modules in Nonni on test is rather poor. :/

For what's worth, the Scorpion with max skills, tech.1 power diagnostic systems in low slots and one large tech.1 shield extender clocks at 17.something k of shield... =)

Eldar Curunirr
The Evil League
Posted - 2004.12.20 20:26:00 - [42]
 

Amarr: 100%Armor 200%Structure
Caldari: 100%Shield 100%Structure

So, Not only do amarr get double the structure of caldari, they also get just as much armor as caldari do shield... And base with no mods armor is better then shield.. so hm...
where'd I leave my amaarr skill books....

Eldar (Still waiting for the engineering skills to give me base shield resistances boost)

Siddy
Minmatar
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.20 20:35:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 20/12/2004 20:31:54
Edited by: Pottsey on 20/12/2004 20:22:03
”That would have put them in about 5th place from a size point of view.
Try scorp - it r0x0r at shield”


True but due to the low slots the scorp is worse at passive shield tanking then a Dominix. Though that might change with the new 120% boost to caldari. Gallente have always been the best passive shield tankers I hope they don’t swap it around so caldari suddenly become the best. Right now the scorp is not that far behind the Dominix so the 120% should put the scorp ahead.

Anyone with a scorp tested the new 120% boost? How many shield points do you get with the new boost and on the main server? Don’t have the skills to test my self.



scorp got 9000 Shields by default

adding 5%/skill bonus you can get it up to 12000 without any modules

after that you add 4 Hardeners and 4 Exstendrs and 4 Chargers or whatever

Erty
Caldari
Exilis inc.
THE V I G I L
Posted - 2004.12.20 21:54:00 - [44]
 

This is an awesome change with the proper balancing, however the numbers are WAY off.
More like:
Amarr 100% armor, 100% structure
Caldari 100% shield, 100% structure
Gallente 50% shield, 50% armor, 100% structure
Minmatar 50% shield, 50% armor, 100% structure

Or something like that. Why does gallente get 300% structure and caldari 100% when they both get a combined 100% shield and/or armor?

Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2004.12.20 22:05:00 - [45]
 

Has anyone addressed the issues of logging off to save your ship. While these changes may very well be an improvement it may also encourage ships to log out of battle when it looks like they are about to loose since it is going to be hard enough to kill a tanked bs with a group of other bs in 2mins let alone small task force type groups.

Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2004.12.20 22:14:00 - [46]
 

So you're actually considering doubling the effective hitpoints of ships and while you're at it, give Amarr and Caldari battleships a *huge* boost? Good job shafting the already screwed Minmatar and Gallente even more.

It's also not true most 1v1 battles last on outcapping. An Apoc can run his dual large repair setup indefinately. Only way to kill him is to break his tank, which is hard enough already and now he has twice the time to kill you. Maller and Prophecy are already tough enough as it is, not even mentioning the Assault ships.

Amarr for t3h win I suppose?

There is, in fact, nothing wrong with ship hitpoints, except that perhaps cruisers could use a slight boost to survive a few more missiles. Battleships that are well setup are hard to kill and IMO the damage vs hitpoints balance is quite good.

Making fights last longer serves no purpose except making agent missions easier than they already are if you know what you're doing.

When I read ships would get an overall increase in hitpoints, I was thinking 10-15% on bs, maybe 30% for cruisers and 20-25% on frigs. Not some strange race-universal 300%.

I'm giving a big no to the changes as proposed.

Lifewire
TunDraGon
Posted - 2004.12.20 23:10:00 - [47]
 

I like the idea to make combats "slower". It also improves frigates - but it´s not a un-nerf!!! This is a 50% weapon nerf!!! In the end it will be less shipkills, but maybe good for PvP since a fleetbattle in a cruiser can be very short if a Gankageddon aims at your poor cruiser.

What i definitivly don´t like: Amarr are already uber - why give them more than all other races again? I know CCP wants to see less Caldary ships, but the better way would be to fix missiles instead of boosting Amarr again. It´s ubelievable how this race gets favorised. Caldarys wont have problems with this, because ECM is simply the key to succesfull PvP, but take a look at the Minmatar or Galente - these races are really poor equipped. The people favorise Caldary and Amarr ships. 2 reasons: Caldary can use ECM and Amarr are simple the most brutal gunships in this game. The "advantadge" of the Minmatar, the speed, doesnt help them much when they still get hit by guns and missiles like crazy. The "advantadge of the Galente, the drones, don´t help much too, since the drones will never reach an armageddon 20 km (most used battle distance) away in time. This game is ruled by FIREPOWER and EW. So it´s ruled by Amarr and Caldarys. Some specialist may be able to still do good in Galente and Minmatar ships - but hey, compared to Caldary and Amarr these ships are no choice for usage. i Would propose to help these two races. But i am fine with everything, since i can fly mostly any ship Wink

I wonder why CCP doesnt try to fix it by using the "resistances"? I would give smaller ships higher resistances like it was done with assault ships. This tweaking can be done slowly: 5% here, 5% there until the things are balanced. Doubling hitpoints are a risk to get crazy tank-fittings. We will have ships that are unkillable 2 or 3 vs 1 wich will cause more blobbing, more ganking. The game already forces to blob and gank so much - CCP should think about ways to reduce blobbing and ganking because these things cause boredome. I cannot imagine it can be funny to gank and blob for ever. We need more PvP content -> refineable shipwrecks Wink

Chade Malloy
Ardent Industrial
DEM0N HUNTERS
Posted - 2004.12.20 23:35:00 - [48]
 

Well, that would be the kill-switch for using drones against BS...

In general, these changes will only lead to more predictable setups, caldari will *only" shieldtank, and Amarr *only* Armortank. Gallente will go for armor too, since the 25% shield boost istn much of a benefit for ships which have more lowslots.
The poor Minmatar sobs can´t neither armortank as well as other races (since they have few lowlosts and get only 25% boost) nor shieldtank as good as the caldaris...thats WAY off balance.
Why not give all their ships a speed boost of 100% when you are at throwing large numbers around like mad?

Bohr
Posted - 2004.12.20 23:42:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Bohr on 20/12/2004 23:48:49
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Um. UM.

So, I shouldn't be armour tanking Minmatar ships? GAH.

Sorry, I think these changes are bad.



I feel another strike of hull tanking coming my way! Confused


Edit: Yay for my Tempest Sad

mafish
Minmatar
Dashavatara
Posted - 2004.12.21 00:25:00 - [50]
 

yea if this is going to come into play you really do need to look into the logging tactic thats going around alot now

Terle
Gallente
DRFSR
Posted - 2004.12.21 02:51:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Terle on 21/12/2004 02:59:37
Originally by: j0sephine
"Whatever it is, give it a read and make sure you test the ship hp changes on Singularity."

Kieron, with all due respect... please don't ask for impossible.

There is no ships to test the hp changes with on Singularity, because the NPC market ends on tier.1 cruisers, and no one is insane enough to actually run mass-production on test server. So the best ships players can test stuff with are the basic cruisers, and whatever personal ships they have left on what, month+ old mirror?

Please, put back the FCC on test server, or give all players the /spawn command, or make a macro that seeds the market after every restart, or shut the bloody server down if no one can be arsed with any of these... whatever, just don't ask for what can't be done, because it comes through like mockery. Especially when the test in question will pretty much require blowing up large amounts of ships to 'test' this new change --;;


Thanks for informing me that there is no FCC on the test server. I was crazy enough to use the offical eve FAQ for my info and couldn't figure out what i was doing wrong hehe. To quote the FAQ:


14.10 How can I get extra stuff to help me test?

There is a corporation available to all Chaos players called Fight Club Co (FCC). The offices are located in PF-346, Planet 1. (You cannot warp directly to the station, but must warp to the planet instead.) Joining FCC will give you access to all of the items on the live server as well as any items that are being tested on Chaos before they are introduced on Tranquility.

Rolling Eyes

edit: Just read Oveur's comments concerning this. Regardless, the FAQ really needs to be updated for poor noobs like me.(Imagine my confusion when I found there was no chaos server heheRazz )

Terle
Gallente
DRFSR
Posted - 2004.12.21 03:21:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: flummox
Originally by: j0sephine
"that there are plenty of people who have ships and mods. yes, even from a month ago. if you wish to help test the game, ask the COMMUNITY for assistance in giving you ships and mods."

Yes, if i wish to help to test the game, i have to ask other players to provide me with means to perform the tests and take extra time to jump through all involved hoops. The question remains -- how is that making the test server any more efficient?


"how many whiners does it take to change a lightbulb?
none. they just sit in the dark and ***** about it..."


How many fanbois does it take to change a lightbulb?
None. They just sit in the dark, claim it's fine as it is and tell everyone who don't like it to leave...


how was i being a "fanboi" ?? by giving you suggestions to help solve your problem ?? that makes me a fanboy?

so you wanted to whine but not get solutions to the problem? what, you just wanted someone to listen to you? my ex-girlfriend used to do that to me all the time. she'd moan and complain about something and after listening i'd offer my opinions. she'd just cry more and say, "i just wanted someone to listen to meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! waaah!"

okay. well, have fun with your problem then. i choose to do something about it instead of just whining.

ugh


You seem to be negating yourself with your basic premise, the "community" on the test server. Last time I logged onto the test server there were exactly 9 people on. It seems the only one "whining" here is you. Whining meaning complaining with no apparent reason, a concept you apparently do not get Flummox.

Of course, I highly doubt you'll get the meaning of this post either, it doesn't say what you want it too hehe.

BTW, I think the fanboi turnaround suited Flummox perfectly Josephine Laughing

OffBeaT
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.12.21 04:25:00 - [53]
 

like i said befor and somone has too stand up for the lesser skilled players. if they cant get their hands on the t2 weopons in reasonable time, they are gona be sitting ducks up against them tuffer ships with t2 firepower. this is not gona be a good deal for them in anyway trying too take on these ships with t1 firepower. Confused

Helmuth Halbstein
Posted - 2004.12.21 08:40:00 - [54]
 

Im sorry but this is more gay that freddie mercury.

Hardin
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.21 10:24:00 - [55]
 

All people going 'Amarr for t3h win' please remember this:

Amarr ships are heavily dependent on cap for defence and offence.

Any change which means it is going to take longer to kill an opponent should realise that laser users (heavy cap use) will be penalised.

An Amarr ship with two large reppers and full set of lasers cannot keep a defence and offence going for more than a few minutes (and that is with maxed skills) unless they use cap injectors or pack spare slots with cap relay/rechargers (reducing general effectiveness)

If combat last longer then Amarr ships are going to run out of cap and die.

I can understand however why this change has been brought in as it will make gankgeddon setups obsolete in small engagements (though still handy in fleet engagements) as gankers will run out of cap before their enemy actually dies.

This change in general seem to suit projectile users who have no offensive cap requirements and can therefore take their time killing things.

But as I haven't tested this yet maybe I am all wrong... Razz

Btw Devs listen to j0sephine - she knows her stuff when it comes to testing

KompleX
Gallente
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2004.12.21 10:45:00 - [56]
 

I'm not against this change, and not for it either. I don't really see why it is needed? Confused

KompleX
Gallente
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2004.12.21 10:47:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: KompleX on 21/12/2004 10:48:28
Originally by: Hardin
All people going 'Amarr for t3h win' please remember this:

Amarr ships are heavily dependent on cap for defence and offence.

Any change which means it is going to take longer to kill an opponent should realise that laser users (heavy cap use) will be penalised.

An Amarr ship with two large reppers and full set of lasers cannot keep a defence and offence going for more than a few minutes (and that is with maxed skills) unless they use cap injectors or pack spare slots with cap relay/rechargers (reducing general effectiveness)

If combat last longer then Amarr ships are going to run out of cap and die.

I can understand however why this change has been brought in as it will make gankgeddon setups obsolete in small engagements (though still handy in fleet engagements) as gankers will run out of cap before their enemy actually dies.

This change in general seem to suit projectile users who have no offensive cap requirements and can therefore take their time killing things.

But as I haven't tested this yet maybe I am all wrong... Razz

Btw Devs listen to j0sephine - she knows her stuff when it comes to testing


Not tr00! I can keep my apoc running 8x megapulses, 2x large reppers and 3/4 hardeneres going forever. And I do not have maxed skills.

Edit: and by this I am in no way saying that ammar is overpowered.

Hardin
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.21 10:54:00 - [58]
 

As I said you must have your spare mid slots and low slots filled with cap relays/rechargers then...

I have an 18mill SP character completely trained purely for Amarr ship/laser use (Amarr BS V, Large Pulse Laser Spec V for example) and two LARGE reppers with hardeners on autorepeat while firing guns will drain your cap much faster than it regrows.

Khaldorn Murino
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.12.21 11:08:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Khaldorn Murino on 21/12/2004 11:09:41
Ahh, but forgive me if im wrong here, but dont most of u shave to choose between high damage, low armour and low damage high armour? not both?

Also, if you could run all that without draining cap Hardin, id be a very scared Matari, as those shiny ships are a bugger as it is :)

Please remember that the greatest ship hull design in EVE is the Rifter hull. Pride of the Minmatar fleet, envy of all other nations.

Sforza
Gallente
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.21 11:17:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Hardin
All people going 'Amarr for t3h win' please remember this:

Amarr ships are heavily dependent on cap for defence and offence.

Any change which means it is going to take longer to kill an opponent should realise that laser users (heavy cap use) will be penalised.

An Amarr ship with two large reppers and full set of lasers cannot keep a defence and offence going for more than a few minutes (and that is with maxed skills) unless they use cap injectors or pack spare slots with cap relay/rechargers (reducing general effectiveness)


Respectfully Hardin.. this already happens. It just doesnt happen to you as yet.

It happens to Megathron pilots in blasterrigs, who dont have the grid to fit two large reps as you do, who have to use a cap injector to even make killing another battleship feasable, and cannot fit a full rack of even the MIDDLE ranking blaster without using RCU's / PDU's. We do not have the choice, as you currently do, to sacrifice some low slots/midslots to increase cap to make it cap stable, since it simply cannot be done.

I know everyone's going to fight their own corners on this issue.. but I see things like "300% structure boost for Gallente!" and I simply want to give up either on my racial ships, or the game entirely.

Sorry.. just had to vent Very Happy



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