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CCP kieron

Posted - 2004.12.20 17:05:00 - [1]
 

Yup, you read it right, the Master of the Nerf Bat has posted a new Dev Blog, but this one isn't a nerf. In fact, it's an anti-nerf (un-nerf?). Whatever it is, give it a read and make sure you test the ship hp changes on Singularity.


flummox
Posted - 2004.12.20 17:08:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: flummox on 20/12/2004 17:08:46

awesome!

UnNerf !! w00t !

LoxyRider
Posted - 2004.12.20 17:14:00 - [3]
 

I'l take "Buff" bob for 100.

And oooooooh interesting.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.12.20 17:15:00 - [4]
 

"Whatever it is, give it a read and make sure you test the ship hp changes on Singularity."

Kieron, with all due respect... please don't ask for impossible.

There is no ships to test the hp changes with on Singularity, because the NPC market ends on tier.1 cruisers, and no one is insane enough to actually run mass-production on test server. So the best ships players can test stuff with are the basic cruisers, and whatever personal ships they have left on what, month+ old mirror?

Please, put back the FCC on test server, or give all players the /spawn command, or make a macro that seeds the market after every restart, or shut the bloody server down if no one can be arsed with any of these... whatever, just don't ask for what can't be done, because it comes through like mockery. Especially when the test in question will pretty much require blowing up large amounts of ships to 'test' this new change --;;

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2004.12.20 17:28:00 - [5]
 

Um. UM.

So, I shouldn't be armour tanking Minmatar ships? GAH.

Sorry, I think these changes are bad.

CCP Oveur

Posted - 2004.12.20 17:30:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: j0sephine
"Whatever it is, give it a read and make sure you test the ship hp changes on Singularity."

Kieron, with all due respect... please don't ask for impossible.

There is no ships to test the hp changes with on Singularity, because the NPC market ends on tier.1 cruisers, and no one is insane enough to actually run mass-production on test server. So the best ships players can test stuff with are the basic cruisers, and whatever personal ships they have left on what, month+ old mirror?

Please, put back the FCC on test server, or give all players the /spawn command, or make a macro that seeds the market after every restart, or shut the bloody server down if no one can be arsed with any of these... whatever, just don't ask for what can't be done, because it comes through like mockery. Especially when the test in question will pretty much require blowing up large amounts of ships to 'test' this new change --;;


I would more like you to go there and test it on your current TQ loadout which should already be there, since it is a mirror of TQ.

If you are interested in further testing, you'll be pleased to know Fight Club will be reinstated on Sisi when we get some database admin love on it. However, if you are even more interested in structured testing, you might be able to get into one of the Sisi balancing teams.

Gunstar Zero
Caldari
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.20 17:33:00 - [7]
 

I love the idea of more HP, especially as I'm in a frigate 90% of the time. The bonuses dont look quite right just yet, but perhaps I dont see the whole picture? Perhaps a quick paragraph detailing the motivation behind each race's changes?


meowcat
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.12.20 17:34:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: meowcat on 20/12/2004 17:36:45
any particular reason gallente get loads of crappy structure points?

just curious, always thought gallente were supposed to amrour tank?

edit: great idea, just that the split seems a bit odd.

note: reducing duration of reps may need some tweaks to cap usage also


RollinDutchMasters
Gallente
Ordnance Delivery Services Inc.
Posted - 2004.12.20 17:38:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Oveur
I would more like you to go there and test it on your current TQ loadout which should already be there, since it is a mirror of TQ.

If you are interested in further testing, you'll be pleased to know Fight Club will be reinstated on Sisi when we get some database admin love on it. However, if you are even more interested in structured testing, you might be able to get into one of the Sisi balancing teams.
What should those of us with very low security status do? Sit around and swap stories about what it was like on Chaos, when things could actually be tested?

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2004.12.20 17:41:00 - [10]
 

Okay, more detail.

Perhaps frigate combat's a bit quick. Maybe.

But BS combat ISN'T. When you have fleets of 40+ clashing, and ~10 die over the space of 30 minutes, the toughness of BS is FINE. Increasing it is just going to lead to it being hard to have meaningful fleet PvP.

Also, as I said, it's going to REALLY punish those ships which are NOT set up for the majority "boosting" type of that race.

Finally, it's allready hard for some BS and cruiser duels to end in a satisfactory soloution. I can see a LOT of "draws" where small combats end in a stalemate becuse of these, and it makes it even harder for say a cruiser pack to take down a battleship.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.12.20 17:47:00 - [11]
 

"I would more like you to go there and test it on your current TQ loadout which should already be there, since it is a mirror of TQ."

There's two unfortunate drawbacks to this: #1 as stated already, the TQ mirror is quite old and so the chances for anyone who spends some reasonable amount of time on test server to still have their TQ setup is very slim. And #2, this sort of test can be done just once. When your TQ ship gets blown up, you can't really repeat the test with similar setup, which means any testing will give very random results (can't really test things reliably if the tests cannot be repeated enough times)

It's good to hear the FC might make the re-appearance, though. ^^

Bundin Sirannon
Caldari
The Federated Suns
Posted - 2004.12.20 17:48:00 - [12]
 

In fact, this is a nerf.

All guns will be less effective at killing someone. So all guns/missiles are nerfed. This means you'll have to bring more ammo/missiles, which reduces cargohold. How do you justify the changes with respect to mass and agility? Agent kill-missions will take longer and cost more for non-laser ships, is that taken into account? They'll also become easier, since player ships don't die that quickly anymore.. There are tons of variables that need to be taken into account.


An alternative:

If the guns are considered too powerful when compared to the ships, make sure everyone can fly T2 ships more easily. Evolution means new models, not radically changing an old model all of a sudden. Reduce the costs and speed up skill-training ability for the T2 ships a bit, and slowly phase out T1. At a certain point, I can imagine new players starting at T2 level, since that's the lowest tech-level generally in use.

In short: don't update T1, it doesn't make sense that the old kestrel suddenly has more hitpoints. Instead, get moving with T2/3/4/5/6... We already have a virtual Tech 1.5 with the destroyers and the like, does that not compensate enough?

flummox
Posted - 2004.12.20 17:55:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: j0sephine
"I would more like you to go there and test it on your current TQ loadout which should already be there, since it is a mirror of TQ."

There's two unfortunate drawbacks to this: #1 as stated already, the TQ mirror is quite old and so the chances for anyone who spends some reasonable amount of time on test server to still have their TQ setup is very slim. And #2, this sort of test can be done just once. When your TQ ship gets blown up, you can't really repeat the test with similar setup, which means any testing will give very random results (can't really test things reliably if the tests cannot be repeated enough times)

It's good to hear the FC might make the re-appearance, though. ^^


two complaints... then don't test. okay?

the Sisi testing is for the rest of us lemmings who think trying stuff out isn't a waste of our time.

p.s. some people own a lot of ships/mods. i for one wouldn't mind blowing a few up...

flummox
Posted - 2004.12.20 17:56:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Bundin Sirannon

An alternative:

If the guns are considered too powerful when compared to the ships, make sure everyone can fly T2 ships more easily. Evolution means new models, not radically changing an old model all of a sudden. Reduce the costs and speed up skill-training ability for the T2 ships a bit, and slowly phase out T1. At a certain point, I can imagine new players starting at T2 level, since that's the lowest tech-level generally in use.


no.

aeti
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.12.20 18:07:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Bundin Sirannon
In fact, this is a nerf.

All guns will be less effective at killing someone. So all guns/missiles are nerfed. This means you'll have to bring more ammo/missiles, which reduces cargohold. How do you justify the changes with respect to mass and agility? Agent kill-missions will take longer and cost more for non-laser ships, is that taken into account? They'll also become easier, since player ships don't die that quickly anymore.. There are tons of variables that need to be taken into account.



it did say npcs will stay as they are

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.12.20 18:14:00 - [16]
 

"two complaints... then don't test. okay?"

It was exactly my point, these things prevent people from testing they were asked to do.

What is your point, if you had any to begin with?

Siddy
Minmatar
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.20 18:15:00 - [17]
 

Thnak you CCP for nerffing projektiles some more

i will now mostly run out of my ammo before i get even trought apoch armor! Confused

flummox
Posted - 2004.12.20 18:18:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: j0sephine
"two complaints... then don't test. okay?"

It was exactly my point, these things prevent people from testing they were asked to do.

What is your point, if you had any to begin with?


that there are plenty of people who have ships and mods. yes, even from a month ago. if you wish to help test the game, ask the COMMUNITY for assistance in giving you ships and mods.

how many whiners does it take to change a lightbulb?
none. they just sit in the dark and ***** about it...

Siddy
Minmatar
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.20 18:19:00 - [19]
 

Aand not to mention Logging off now actualy saves your ship more Rolling Eyes

RollinDutchMasters
Gallente
Ordnance Delivery Services Inc.
Posted - 2004.12.20 18:19:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: RollinDutchMasters on 20/12/2004 18:20:02
Originally by: flummox
Originally by: j0sephine
"I would more like you to go there and test it on your current TQ loadout which should already be there, since it is a mirror of TQ."

There's two unfortunate drawbacks to this: #1 as stated already, the TQ mirror is quite old and so the chances for anyone who spends some reasonable amount of time on test server to still have their TQ setup is very slim. And #2, this sort of test can be done just once. When your TQ ship gets blown up, you can't really repeat the test with similar setup, which means any testing will give very random results (can't really test things reliably if the tests cannot be repeated enough times)

It's good to hear the FC might make the re-appearance, though. ^^


two complaints... then don't test. okay?

the Sisi testing is for the rest of us lemmings who think trying stuff out isn't a waste of our time.

p.s. some people own a lot of ships/mods. i for one wouldn't mind blowing a few up...
Seeking suggustions for how to test on singularity. Currently located 30 jumps from empire (and the nearest other person) in a battleship that I cannot replace if I lose it, making combat testing difficult, assuming I can find someone to test with.

The changes as suggusted now seem to be unbalanced, but theres no real way for me to check and see.

Also, I cannot travel through .5+.

KompleX
Gallente
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2004.12.20 18:20:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: KompleX on 20/12/2004 18:20:31
Originally by: Bundin Sirannon
In fact, this is a nerf.

All guns will be less effective at killing someone. So all guns/missiles are nerfed. This means you'll have to bring more ammo/missiles, which reduces cargohold. How do you justify the changes with respect to mass and agility? Agent kill-missions will take longer and cost more for non-laser ships, is that taken into account? They'll also become easier, since player ships don't die that quickly anymore.. There are tons of variables that need to be taken into account.


An alternative:

If the guns are considered too powerful when compared to the ships, make sure everyone can fly T2 ships more easily. Evolution means new models, not radically changing an old model all of a sudden. Reduce the costs and speed up skill-training ability for the T2 ships a bit, and slowly phase out T1. At a certain point, I can imagine new players starting at T2 level, since that's the lowest tech-level generally in use.

In short: don't update T1, it doesn't make sense that the old kestrel suddenly has more hitpoints. Instead, get moving with T2/3/4/5/6... We already have a virtual Tech 1.5 with the destroyers and the like, does that not compensate enough?



No,no,no,no... Surprised

meowcat
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.12.20 18:21:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Siddy
Aand not to mention Logging off now actualy saves your ship more Rolling Eyes


VERY good point.

Log off timers will need to be increased significantly (they need increasing anyway tbh, but lots more now)

a week should just about do it Laughing

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.12.20 18:42:00 - [23]
 

"that there are plenty of people who have ships and mods. yes, even from a month ago. if you wish to help test the game, ask the COMMUNITY for assistance in giving you ships and mods."

Yes, if i wish to help to test the game, i have to ask other players to provide me with means to perform the tests and take extra time to jump through all involved hoops. The question remains -- how is that making the test server any more efficient?


"how many whiners does it take to change a lightbulb?
none. they just sit in the dark and ***** about it..."


How many fanbois does it take to change a lightbulb?
None. They just sit in the dark, claim it's fine as it is and tell everyone who don't like it to leave...

KompleX
Gallente
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2004.12.20 18:42:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: KompleX on 20/12/2004 18:42:24
Originally by: Oveur

I would more like you to go there and test it on your current TQ loadout which should already be there, since it is a mirror of TQ.

If you are interested in further testing, you'll be pleased to know Fight Club will be reinstated on Sisi when we get some database admin love on it. However, if you are even more interested in structured testing, you might be able to get into one of the Sisi balancing teams.


Glad to hear that! Very Happy

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2004.12.20 18:46:00 - [25]
 

Quote:
Amarr: 100%Armor 200%Structure
Caldari: 100%Shield 100%Structure
Gallente: 25%Shield 75%Armor 300%Structure
Minmatar: 75%Shield 25%Armor 150%Structure




...now if minmatar are suposed to shield tank, can we have more midslots in their ships plz? cuz shield tanking while having 4 or 5 med slots (tops.. and that's in BS'es) is kinda.... bad?
Structure increase of the gallente is a bit err... weirdNeutral
Can't argue with Caldari and Amarr cuz they had the best shields and armour respectively, and now they just are better at it... Think it's better that I start training caldari and amarr BS's and scrap my gall/minnie BS skillsEvil or Very Mad

Siddy
Minmatar
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.12.20 18:51:00 - [26]
 

its odd that Amarr and Caldari got HUGE prosentual increase of HP in the HP tissue they actualy TANK.

And minmatar and galentees were redused to halfwith Stuktire/whatever-floats-your-boat tanks Neutral

Not to mention neither of two shafted races's, minmatars or Galentees do that kind of damage to justify Caldari and Amarr increases Rolling Eyes

OffBeaT
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.12.20 19:01:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: OffBeaT on 20/12/2004 19:04:29
i think you guys are starting too make too many changes too freaken fast and forgeting the players who dont have ubar skills and have planed there skills months ago. these t2 weopons are the first **** off for mid range skilled players like me who have 7-8mil in mostly ship and combat skills, since its all i work for skills. i am still almost two months away from them weopons. thank good for missiles too deal with the players who have ubar t2 weopons up the ass now, but we do not. so they get too blow the **** out of us even faster now. i wont even get into the elite ships, becouse thats just a BS deal aswell for us. i mean just too use a reactor control unit 2 it took me 15 days too lvl5. total bs on that one do too the fact i didnt need lvl5 skills too use t2 pdus or t2 caps witch are way more usful in a ship. its funny too becouse the guys who would need too use a t2 rcu arnt the old farts who have all the skills but the mid range and low range players who need too fit that one more idem. so now you wona make the ships tuffer. well that should be fair i bet for the players like me who dont got the t2 weopons too punch a hole in them ships. so i guess ill have too say i dont like what they are thinking of doing too the hit points of the ships. it dont look right too me. ps, dont freak up my raven is all i care about.Rolling Eyes

flummox
Posted - 2004.12.20 19:02:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: j0sephine
"that there are plenty of people who have ships and mods. yes, even from a month ago. if you wish to help test the game, ask the COMMUNITY for assistance in giving you ships and mods."

Yes, if i wish to help to test the game, i have to ask other players to provide me with means to perform the tests and take extra time to jump through all involved hoops. The question remains -- how is that making the test server any more efficient?


"how many whiners does it take to change a lightbulb?
none. they just sit in the dark and ***** about it..."


How many fanbois does it take to change a lightbulb?
None. They just sit in the dark, claim it's fine as it is and tell everyone who don't like it to leave...


how was i being a "fanboi" ?? by giving you suggestions to help solve your problem ?? that makes me a fanboy?

so you wanted to whine but not get solutions to the problem? what, you just wanted someone to listen to you? my ex-girlfriend used to do that to me all the time. she'd moan and complain about something and after listening i'd offer my opinions. she'd just cry more and say, "i just wanted someone to listen to meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! waaah!"

okay. well, have fun with your problem then. i choose to do something about it instead of just whining.

ugh

pardux
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2004.12.20 19:11:00 - [29]
 

SadSadSad i wish i had picked amarr\caldari when i whas making a charNeutral

Reebo77
Turbulent
Posted - 2004.12.20 19:13:00 - [30]
 

This could make it a lot more dangerous to fly pure damage ships like gankageddon and blasterthron. The enemy will hve more time to punish the gank/blaster before they are dead, which with no tanking could be bad news.


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