open All Channels
seplocked Science and Industry
blankseplocked To people that want to remove T2 BPOs : give a GOOD reason why
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 ... : last (40)

Author Topic

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2010.08.23 19:47:00 - [241]
 

Originally by: Akita T
And that's exactly why all those "waah waaah remove T2 BPOs" people have to come up with a really GOOD reason for CCP to do it first.

No, they do not have to come up with a really good reason. A "waah waaah" is enough to see there is an issue and a reason for CCP to investigate. You want to see a reason only to troll once more on the forums, and you are more on the forums than in the game anyway, which means anything you write will be "waah waaah" to CCP. They do not need Akita to tell them what to do and how to do it.

And when people come with good arguments do you dodge them, Akita. So the discussion is far from over.

SurrenderMonkey
Posted - 2010.08.23 19:54:00 - [242]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Akita T
And that's exactly why all those "waah waaah remove T2 BPOs" people have to come up with a really GOOD reason for CCP to do it first.

No, they do not have to come up with a really good reason. A "waah waaah" is enough to see there is an issue and a reason for CCP to investigate.


And, what, you think in the 3? 4? years since invention was introduced, they've never noticed sobbing just like yours? It's been investigated. It's even been in the QEN. The conclusion was that there wasn't a problem. So, what now? You keep crying, hoping that your tears will result in more investigations and that, eventually, someone will be dumb enough to see it your way? Rolling Eyes

Kryss Stevenson
Caldari
Red Stallion Mercantile and Manufacturing
Posted - 2010.08.23 19:57:00 - [243]
 

Whitehound if you think that there is a problem then file a petition with CCP that is the only way that they will know. With out that there is no problem that they need to be concerned about.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.23 20:08:00 - [244]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Akita T
And that's exactly why all those "waah waaah remove T2 BPOs" people have to come up with a really GOOD reason for CCP to do it first.

No, they do not have to come up with a really good reason. A "waah waaah" is enough to see there is an issue and a reason for CCP to investigate.

CCP has investigated and came up with the answer of "it's not a problem".

Quote:
You want to see a reason only to troll once more on the forums, and you are more on the forums than in the game anyway, which means anything you write will be "waah waaah" to CCP. They do not need Akita to tell them what to do and how to do it.

Precisely, they don't need me to tell them T2 BPOs are not a problem, they know full well.
It's the people that WANT T2 BPOs GONE that need explaining why they're not a problem and why they don't need to be removed.

Quote:
And when people come with good arguments do you dodge them, Akita. So the discussion is far from over.

There were no good arguments. Not a single one. Quote some.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2010.08.23 20:27:00 - [245]
 

Originally by: Akita T
There were no good arguments. Not a single one. Quote some.

I would be feeding a troll. Sorry, but I will not do that.

There have been many good reasons. Be serious and read them again.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.08.23 20:35:00 - [246]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Akita T
There were no good arguments. Not a single one. Quote some.

I would be feeding a troll. Sorry, but I will not do that.

There have been many good reasons. Be serious and read them again.



Lol. I think akita is referring to points that dont involve "cause i dont own one" and "lol invention is hindered" you absolute crybaby

Keep this up and you may surpass LHA as the biggest troll on this subject.


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.23 20:39:00 - [247]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 23/08/2010 20:41:06
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Akita T
There were no good arguments. Not a single one. Quote some.

I would be feeding a troll. Sorry, but I will not do that.

Aww, come on, I *am* feeding you, and you're an even bigger troll, so play nice.
Quote:
There have been many good reasons.
Be serious and read them again.

I have shot down every single one (that had any merit whatsoever after a first look), and I have done so by using facts and logic.
YOU go back and read my rebuttals and make counter-arguments to THOSE if you feel they were lacking.

If I managed to MISS one of them altogether, one that you somehow consider valid, quote it so I can mash it into its constituent nonsense particles.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2010.08.23 20:47:00 - [248]
 

Edited by: Whitehound on 23/08/2010 20:53:48
Originally by: Akita T
YOU go back and read my rebuttals and make counter-arguments to THOSE if you feel they were lacking.

No, thanks. I remember most of what you wrote. You do not care for the issue, you write like there is something to win each time you argue (=> troll). You then do not see the people's problem, but always only dismiss the people with pretty arguments based on your own logic and reasoning. It is not helpful and it is also not how arguments are won.

T2 BPOs are not needed. They make invention less fun, because they compete with the invention. And people feel an unfairness about them.

This is why I want them removed.

SurrenderMonkey
Posted - 2010.08.23 20:56:00 - [249]
 

Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 23/08/2010 20:58:55
Originally by: Whitehound


T2 BPOs are not needed.


This is a logically fallacious argument. Or, more accurately, a non-argument. It works for anything. Battleships are not "needed" - let's remove all battleships. Clones are not "needed" - let's remove clones. The ISK in your wallet isn't needed. Let's set your wallet balance to -20b. Strictly speaking, the game itself isn't a necessity. "X isn't needed" is not, nor has it ever been, a valid reason for change.


Quote:
They make invention less fun, because they compete with the invention.


You know how a few posts up you were going on about how tear-posts will cause CCP to investigate? Well, they already did investigate, and what they found is that this assertion is not actually true at all. Due to the volumes involved, there is really no competition at all between most BPOs and invention. You're just sticking your fingers in your ears and going, "LALALALAICAN'THEEEEEAAARYOOOU" at this point.

Quote:
And people feel an unfairness about them.


That's a personal problem. I would suggest you cry about it, if you weren't already. Rolling Eyes

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2010.08.23 20:57:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
...

Grow up!

SurrenderMonkey
Posted - 2010.08.23 20:59:00 - [251]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
...

Grow up!


Big talk from someone who can't stop sobbing for long enough to figure out that 2+2 does not equal 5.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.23 21:06:00 - [252]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
No, thanks. I remember most of what you wrote. You do not care for the issue, you write like there is something to win each time you argue (=> troll). You then do not see the people's problem, but always only dismiss the people with pretty arguments based on your own logic and reasoning. It is not helpful and it is also not how arguments are won.

If they have arguments based on facts, logic and reasoning, let them bring it forth. Problem is, they have none.
OF COURSE I don't give a rat's ass about arguments that basically reduce to "I just feel it's unfair, so they need to go" or "I don't have it and it costs too much to buy, so they need to go", without any shred of factuality to support them.

Quote:
T2 BPOs are not needed.

T2 BPOs are not harmful either.

Quote:
They make invention less fun, because they compete with the invention.

For heavily in-demand items, the market is pretty much only inventors, with T2 BPO-produced items a negligible drop in the ocean.
For low-demand items, even T2 BPOs are too much for the market, so it's completely closed for inventors - HOWEVER, for those markets, even if T2 BPOs are removed, inventors would still have no place, because nobody would bother buying stuff at invented-price level.

INVENTION is the only thing that directly competes with invention.
T2 BPOs just shrink the available market share where inventors compete against other inventors.
Removing T2 BPOs will NOT make invention more profitable, and it certainly would not make it "more fun".

Quote:
And people feel an unfairness about them.

Some people feel unfairness about loads of things in EVE.
In fact, I'd guess that there is no single aspect of EVE where not one single person ever complained about it being unfair.
It's never a good reason to remove anything for that.

Quote:
This is why I want them removed.

And still, you fail to provide a good reason for why we should care about what you want.
Meanwhile, we want the exact opposite, and we do have good reasons for wanting that.

Greyson Stone
Amarr
Scientia Consortio Angustus
The Donkey Rollers
Posted - 2010.08.23 21:10:00 - [253]
 

I wonder what would happen if all of this was left up to a vote. Have all the players in EvE vote what they want, an the majority wins. Wonder how much crying their would be then.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.23 21:14:00 - [254]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 23/08/2010 21:19:50
Originally by: Greyson Stone
I wonder what would happen if all of this was left up to a vote. Have all the players in EvE vote what they want, an the majority wins.

[sarcasm]

I also propose several other votes :
"cap wallet size to 2 billion ISK and give everybody 2 billion ISK",
"cap max SP to 50 mil and give everybody 50 mil free SP"
"remove all capital ships"
"make wardecs in highsec impossible"
"introduce CONCORD in lowsec"

Gee, I wonder what would happen. The results would almost certainly be similar for all votes.

Greyson Stone
Amarr
Scientia Consortio Angustus
The Donkey Rollers
Posted - 2010.08.23 21:21:00 - [255]
 

Lets do it then, put this whole T2 BPO issue up for a vote to ALL the players. Once you sign on to your account, before you can even pick which toon you want to sign on to, you have to vote, keep T2 BPOs or burn them all. Then once an for all the forums madness about this whole topic would die, well, till whatever side lost an started crying again. You have a 50/50 shot, just how many people want T2 BPOs an how many don't.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.23 21:23:00 - [256]
 

Originally by: Greyson Stone
Lets do it then, put this whole T2 BPO issue up for a vote to ALL the players. Once you sign on to your account, before you can even pick which toon you want to sign on to, you have to vote, keep T2 BPOs or burn them all. Then once an for all the forums madness about this whole topic would die, well, till whatever side lost an started crying again. You have a 50/50 shot, just how many people want T2 BPOs an how many don't.

Let's also put all the other votes I mentioned above into action then !

Greyson Stone
Amarr
Scientia Consortio Angustus
The Donkey Rollers
Posted - 2010.08.23 21:31:00 - [257]
 

Akita, face it, if the vote was put to the test, all your arguments while very valid an true might come crashing down an die. Or, all your arguments may finaly fall onto ears that have sound open minds, an can see the light. It all wouldn't matter, the whole affair would be decided in a matter of days, by ALL of EvE.

Lets face one fact, WE are all the consumers. We pay to play, an some of us, like myself buy GTCs so others can play without spending their own money, or if they can't afford it. You have a right, I have a right, we ALL have a right to pick an choose. Hell, what would EvE/CCP be without the paying player? I don't wish to leave out those who buy GTCs with their own isk. They are just as much a paying player as anyone else.

Mr LaForge
Posted - 2010.08.23 21:35:00 - [258]
 

We really need to remove T1 BPOs because those that have had them for a long time have them researched up and a new player can't compete with that. they have to save up to buy one and then research it themselves. How could CCP not see this?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.23 21:41:00 - [259]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 23/08/2010 21:42:05

Just because something is POPULAR doesn't mean it's right.
Putting something like this to a vote would have absolutely no merit in determining the validity of arguments for or against it.
The majority of people are ill-informed (thanks to not really caring), don't have the time or patience to listen to any of the arguments for them, so obviously there is a much greater chance the majority would vote to remove them.
It still wouldn't make them right.

As for the rest of ridiculous votes, yes, the majority of people have less than 2 bil ISK in their wallets (so hey would not care if that was the cap), and they don't understand what giving everybody 2 bil ISK would mean (so they would want that), that still doesn't make it a good idea.
And so on and so forth.



If you want a vote, fine, let's have a vote.
But all people will FIRST have to go through a test to determine they understand the exact effects T2 BPOs have on the game world as a whole, test designed by S&I and MD people and vetted/corrected by the CCP economist for accuracy.
The test score result (raised to the power of 10) will determine the weight of the vote in the final tally.
People that have no clue what they're voting for will not matter. People that know the facts best will have the most influence.

Celia Therone
Posted - 2010.08.23 21:55:00 - [260]
 

I would say that the existence of T2 BPOs increases the opacity of the market to most players. Whilst complexity is often good, complexity that exists purely because of the legacy of a past error that has now been fixed is bad. Keeping the T2 BPOs simply reinforces failure.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the industry experiences of senior CCP folks were influenced by a much heavier exposure to t2 bpos than that of the general populace. This might be a contributing reason why the invention interface see so little love. ("It works fine when I use my T2 BPO's" lol CCP)

CCP routinely screw players because of mistakes in game balance that they're fixing. One example that affected me was the T3 datacore drop rate change which resulted in datacores dropping by a couple of orders of magnitude in price virtually overnight. The fact that T2 BPO owners are somehow magically immune from this creates an illusion of favoritism especially as the T2 lottery was clearly a bigger error (thus needing more correction) than the T3 datacore supply was. This illusion of favoritism isn't helped at all by the existence of the T2 BPO spawning scandal (definite actual favoritism).

Having favoritism play an important part in the development of the game is poisonous and can go a long way towards creating bitter vet syndrome.

Greyson Stone
Amarr
Scientia Consortio Angustus
The Donkey Rollers
Posted - 2010.08.23 21:58:00 - [261]
 

Akita, I was agreeing with your debate. Your absolutely right, the majority of the people would most likely vote to fry T2 BPOs.

What I am saying is simple, lets just end this once an for all, put it to a vote for ALL players.

I also agree they should be well informed voters, so they can make the proper vote, but even well informed, it won't matter. Humans are not un-biased enough.

In the end, the majority of people would probably want to get rid of T2 BPOs period. Whether its right or wrong, or causes market harm or not, wouldn't really matter to them.

I honestly don't see CCP ever coming up with enough grit to put the idea to a vote anyway. They will keep quiet an ignore the issue, an pray that in time it will all go away.

So, why should T2 BPOs be gotten rid of? Because EVERYONE in EvE decided to do it. There is your valid answer. Let democracy decide, an then no one will have a valid argument anymore, simply because the majority of players decided what THEY wanted. You can spin whatever else you want into this, by making or causing more arguments about other topics an adding it in here, in the end, the players should decide.

SurrenderMonkey
Posted - 2010.08.23 22:11:00 - [262]
 

Originally by: Greyson Stone
Akita, I was agreeing with your debate. Your absolutely right, the majority of the people would most likely vote to fry T2 BPOs.

What I am saying is simple, lets just end this once an for all, put it to a vote for ALL players.



Why would this issue, and none other, be put to a mass vote?

This isn't a democracy, and this is not a unique issue by any means. BPOs are pretty much just one item in a long list of issues that people with a poor understanding of the game whine about.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.23 22:15:00 - [263]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 23/08/2010 22:16:42
Originally by: Greyson Stone
I also agree they should be well informed voters, so they can make the proper vote, but even well informed, it won't matter. Humans are not un-biased enough.

That's the part I disagree with.
If informed people's votes mattered orders of magnitude more than that of some random Joe (and nobody cheated on the test), the vote would end up a resounding "keep T2 BPOs".

Greyson Stone
Amarr
Scientia Consortio Angustus
The Donkey Rollers
Posted - 2010.08.23 22:17:00 - [264]
 

Akita, your giving the average human too much credit, not enough people think, they just act.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.23 22:18:00 - [265]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 23/08/2010 22:35:30

Originally by: Greyson Stone
Akita, your giving the average human too much credit

That's just it, I'm not giving the average human any credit.
I just think they'll be quite thoroughly selected out by the test Twisted Evil
(again, assuming cheating is made if not impossible, then at least extremely difficult)

It has been experimentally proven that humans are hardwired for perceived "fairness" (experiments with variations of the "ultimatum game")...
...so people that are perfectly well informed about all the facts regarding T2 BPOs, their effects, and the effects their removal would have will tend to vote to leave them alone (because they will be aware that is the fairer option overall)
...while uninformed people will tend to vote to remove them (because they'll falsely believe their existence is unfair, that their owners are evil and need to be punished, and that nothing bad would come out of their removal).

If you bias the vote in favor of well-informed people, the outcome will most likely be "keep T2 BPOs". A far less likely but still marginally possible outcome would be to remove them, while giving more than ample compensation for their removal. The option to "remove without compensation" will barely even register.

Narfas Deteis
Posted - 2010.08.23 22:26:00 - [266]
 

Edited by: Narfas Deteis on 23/08/2010 22:33:46
Originally by: Greyson Stone
Akita, I was agreeing with your debate. Your absolutely right, the majority of the people would most likely vote to fry T2 BPOs.

What I am saying is simple, lets just end this once an for all, put it to a vote for ALL players.

I also agree they should be well informed voters, so they can make the proper vote, but even well informed, it won't matter. Humans are not un-biased enough.

In the end, the majority of people would probably want to get rid of T2 BPOs period. Whether its right or wrong, or causes market harm or not, wouldn't really matter to them.

I honestly don't see CCP ever coming up with enough grit to put the idea to a vote anyway. They will keep quiet an ignore the issue, an pray that in time it will all go away.

So, why should T2 BPOs be gotten rid of? Because EVERYONE in EvE decided to do it. There is your valid answer. Let democracy decide, an then no one will have a valid argument anymore, simply because the majority of players decided what THEY wanted. You can spin whatever else you want into this, by making or causing more arguments about other topics an adding it in here, in the end, the players should decide.


Well, if there would be voting for setting NPC price of all items on 100 ISK, like on sisi, The Crowd probably would vote for it. And all skills on 5 for everyone. This of course would destroy EVE, but The Crowd would be happy for 5 minutes, and then abandon this game.

That's why CCP employs game designers.

Don't mix democracy of ADHD kids with game design.


Nahkep Narmelion
Gallente
CALIMA COLLABORATIVE
Atrox Urbanis Respublique Abundatia
Posted - 2010.08.24 01:47:00 - [267]
 

Quote:
One reason is that they are not needed, since we have got invention.


OMFG...the barest seed of an idea. I for one am shocked! Shocked I say! Shocked that our most recent troll on this topic actually posted something other than a one liner worth dog turds.

I know he wont respond in any reasonable manner to what I'm about to write, so I'll just toss off this post to those who might be reading and not participating.

The above is true. We don't NEED T2 BPOs. But as SurrenderMonkey pointed out we don't NEED battleships. They are nice and all, but in the end we could do without them. Same goes with the game as a whole. So that is one possible rebuttal.

But there is more as well.

Yes, some markets are currently dominated by T2 BPOs. These are markets where I suspect that the profit margin is too low for inventors. As such, the T2 BPOs keep this market supplied. If we removed the T2 BPOs two things would happen.

Case 1: Prices rise and inventors re-enter the market.

In this case, non-inventors would lose out over the status quo since higher prices mean an overall decline in player welfare. You have less isk to spend on stuff and thus have less fun. This is a bad thing, IMO.

Case 2: Demand is not sufficient for inventors to re-enter the market.

In this case the market just ceases to be (example, Akerlof's Lemon Model). This too is a "bad thing" in that those players that were happily buying said items no longer can. This too is a reduction in player welfare.

To what extent we will have case 1 or case 2 is an empirical question, but my guess is we'd have more or 1 than 2. Unless you're reading Whitehound in which case you get quite alot of number 2.

Quote:

Have you considered creating copies of a fully researched T2 BPO yet?
Have you considered selling copies of a fully researched T2 BPO, too?


And here we can see more of Whitehound's ignorance displayed on the forums for all to see. Copying a T2 BPO takes longer than actually making the item in question. An owner of a T2 BPO, generally speaking, would be foolish to make copies. This part of his argument is just outright irrelevant.

Now we it is also instructive to look back at the bad old days when the lottery was in effect and there was no T2 invention. The price of tech 2 items was sky high. Why? Because with a few producers and the limitations on BPOs only a few items could be made. Even without collusion on the part of producers you'd still end up with prices well above the competitive price. This is bad in that it means that not only are T2 BPO owners capturing economic profits (unearned profits basically) they are also imposing a deadweight loss on the game. Collusion on the part of BPO holders makes the problem even worse.

So CCP introduced invention which brought about massive competition dropping prices to very low levels. This is good for the Eve community as it makes the fun items much more accessible, allows for a new profession, and increases the diversity and resilience of the New Eden economy.

Removing T2 BPOs would result in a net loss for the New Eden community and only a perceived benefit.

I know that is a lot of information there to take in. But that is the problem is lies and liars like Whitehound. Their lie gets half way around the world before the truth even has its boots on.

SurrenderMonkey
Posted - 2010.08.24 01:56:00 - [268]
 

Quote:

Have you considered creating copies of a fully researched T2 BPO yet?
Have you considered selling copies of a fully researched T2 BPO, too?


Hah, I missed that before. It's always a treat when people who are fully ignorant of the actual game mechanics are lobbying for change. Of course, Whitehound has already admitted that the facts are unimportant to him, and that he merely wants them removed to salve his butthurt.

Nahkep Narmelion
Gallente
CALIMA COLLABORATIVE
Atrox Urbanis Respublique Abundatia
Posted - 2010.08.24 01:58:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: Greyson Stone
Akita, your giving the average human too much credit, not enough people think, they just act.


No, she's not. She's giving them precisely the credit they deserve with is worth about as much as a bowl of punch with a turd floating in it.

Akita is basically making the same point Winston Churchill did, to paraphrase, "Democracy is the worst form of government that has been tried except for all others." Or as I like to put it, a dog turd sandwich is might be the best turd sandwich, but it is still a turd sandwich. Wanna bite?

We've become so enamored with democracy we've elevated it to a cult like status. We use it for all sorts of allocation issues and then are shocked and dismayed that it doesn't work out. That the allocation is entirely unsustainable.

I've disagreed with Akita on a few rather esoteric points in the past, but on this issue she (uhhh...he? no matter) absolutely right. T2 BPOs have minimal, if any, adverse impact and in some markets have a positive impact. Any views to the contrary are merely perceived and are subject to the dishonest manipulations of people like Whitehound.

Hopefully, if CCP does consider doing anything they'll consult with their economist who will say, "Epic fail guys....epic fail. Just leave them be and they will continue to be less and less of a force in the economy."

Greyson Stone
Amarr
Scientia Consortio Angustus
The Donkey Rollers
Posted - 2010.08.24 02:35:00 - [270]
 

Nahkep, my point was well made, Akita asked for a good reason why T2 BPOs should be removed. Whether you like democracy or not isn't even relavent. It was a form of expression, I could of said like a Republic, with CCP being the First Consul. The simple fact of the matter was a vote, an all this had started off with sarcasim, I just kept forgetting to add the smiley faces. I personally could care less about T2 BPOs, like someone posted way back, "it would take 8 years to start making a profit from a T2 bpo, versus inventing the same thing with BPCs". I know I probably got that quote wrong, but you get the idea, its about what he said.

Whether democracy sucks or not, who cares, point is, if you left it up to EvE players to decide the fate of T2 BPOs, the BPO owners might get screwed.

Not enough people think of the consequences of their actions, just look at the real world.

In the end, I was just having fun, I got bored, my clone was stuck in high sec, an I was reading the forums, an decided to add my opinion, we all know opinions are like A-holes, everybody has one an they all stink.

Take what I say with a grain of salt, an then add sarcasim to it, an you might find my arguments over this amusing.

Besides, could you imagine the fallout if CCP did leave it up to all of the EvE players to decide?


Pages: first : previous : ... 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 ... : last (40)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only