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blankseplocked To people that want to remove T2 BPOs : give a GOOD reason why
 
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Aesahettre
Posted - 2010.08.10 09:10:00 - [181]
 

Edited by: Aesahettre on 10/08/2010 09:10:59
I actually dont have the time to discuss this matter but since I am also a tradesman and interested in free market balance I will add my 2 cents to the discussion.

First off, EVE aims to be as close as possible to real world economics. Seeing the aiming for total player controlled production of products of all sorts and spreading of those in the universe proves that. If not then NPC sells should simply stay eve for t2 stuff wwhy not having a zero profit competitor? But then again, all would cry, the small the medium and the big players like Akita.

Anyway lets come to "Why to remove t2 bpos?"
The reason is simply, matching it to the real world would imply that one or a handful of companies would have an infinite supply of zero cost materials which they never pay for (lets call it steel, coal or oil) which is infinite in supply. But then again we all know, nothing is infinite, no resource supplies eternally. All companies are dependand on different resource companies with changing oil fields, changing coal mine locations and also iron mines. So they create contracts to buy these materials, all for a different price of course and in diffferent quantities but they end up all paying for the resources they need to build something (lets say cars).

Mapping this on EVE means simply, a BPO has to deplete, someday. Why? Because it cuts the material costs in comparison to 98% of the trading market and gives a handful of companies the possibility to still untercut anyones prices and make profit simply because they never payed for resources everyone else had to buy. Now they will say "we are sooo less, we wouldnt influence the market?" But actually they do, they can build 2 cars instead of one with the same amount of invested isk (sometimes) and when they undercut then they do it agressive (simple capitalism) so they will setup 20 cheap ships in jita and everyone else wont be able to sell it so simply not produce it because its a loose of investement.
Everyone with a basic understanding of economics understands this simply story.

Question about refund for converting each t2 bpo to a X run bpc? Non. Or would anyone argue that "Ford or GM" would get a reward for emptying an oil well? Or 10 iron mines? No.

PS: Sorry its my twink but who cares anyway.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.10 09:42:00 - [182]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 10/08/2010 09:45:06
Originally by: Aesahettre
Anyway lets come to "Why to remove t2 bpos?"
The reason is simply, matching it to the real world would imply that one or a handful of companies would have an infinite supply of zero cost materials which they never pay for (lets call it steel, coal or oil) which is infinite in supply. But then again we all know, nothing is infinite, no resource supplies eternally. All companies are dependand on different resource companies with changing oil fields, changing coal mine locations and also iron mines. So they create contracts to buy these materials, all for a different price of course and in diffferent quantities but they end up all paying for the resources they need to build something (lets say cars).

Does "Microsoft Windows" ring any bells ?
What about "copyright", "license", "DRM" ?
Now, guess what T2 BPOs are.


Originally by: Aesahettre
Mapping this on EVE means simply, a BPO has to deplete, someday. Why? Because it cuts the material costs in comparison to 98% of the trading market and gives a handful of companies the possibility to still untercut anyones prices and make profit simply because they never payed for resources everyone else had to buy.

Actually, a far more realistic way to do it would be to have T2 BPOs decrease in ME/PE value on a regular basis, so you would have to stick them back into research to keep the "edge".
Or alternatively, have invention ME/PE increase over time from -4/-4 to positive values.

wizard87
Posted - 2010.08.10 11:56:00 - [183]
 

Troll thread detected.

Akita, you can be a right arse sometimes.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.08.10 11:56:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Akita T

Does "Microsoft Windows" ring any bells ?
What about "copyright", "license", "DRM" ?
Now, guess what T2 BPOs are.



So I can go out and invent Windows, and it would be identicle to Microsoft's. And every time I sell it, I have to reinvent it again for each customer?

Any attempt to link EVE to RW is lame. Infinate respawning materials, infinate inflow of cash from missions, have to re-invent the wheel each manufactruing job, infinate inflow of modules from rat drops wihtout corresponding demand/purchase of those modules, etc. etc.

T2 BPOs are an artifact of a lame lottery mechanism that gave too much reward to too few people, creating a caste systems of haves and have nots which resulted in hate and discontent. Leaving the T2 BPOs behind when the lame lottery was removed, perpetuates that hate and discontent into each new generation of industrialists who discover they will never have a reasonible chance to compete on a level playing field.

Aesahettre
Posted - 2010.08.10 12:08:00 - [185]
 

Edited by: Aesahettre on 10/08/2010 12:09:41
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 10/08/2010 09:45:06
Originally by: Aesahettre
Anyway lets come to "Why to remove t2 bpos?"
The reason is simply, matching it to the real world would imply that one or a handful of companies would have an infinite supply of zero cost materials which they never pay for (lets call it steel, coal or oil) which is infinite in supply. But then again we all know, nothing is infinite, no resource supplies eternally. All companies are dependand on different resource companies with changing oil fields, changing coal mine locations and also iron mines. So they create contracts to buy these materials, all for a different price of course and in diffferent quantities but they end up all paying for the resources they need to build something (lets say cars).

Does "Microsoft Windows" ring any bells ?
What about "copyright", "license", "DRM" ?
Now, guess what T2 BPOs are.


Originally by: Aesahettre
Mapping this on EVE means simply, a BPO has to deplete, someday. Why? Because it cuts the material costs in comparison to 98% of the trading market and gives a handful of companies the possibility to still untercut anyones prices and make profit simply because they never payed for resources everyone else had to buy.

Actually, a far more realistic way to do it would be to have T2 BPOs decrease in ME/PE value on a regular basis, so you would have to stick them back into research to keep the "edge".
Or alternatively, have invention ME/PE increase over time from -4/-4 to positive values.


(1)
Microsoft is a giant. It has nothing to do with depleting resources and even they change suppliers but can lower the bought resource cost due to higher buy volumes. But they dont get resources free and thats what you imply.
Copyright/License and DRM (the last the least) protect you and your product from reproduction cheaper from another company or person, it gives you an exclusive right which means noone else can or will produce that item for the paid amount of time given through law. Thus it doesnt apply in this case also (try not to throw in sticks if you have no real argument).

I know what t2 BPOs are but you seem not.

(2)
No, that idea is phsychologically seen just existend because you cant let go ...of your bpos and you know its going to happen sooner or later. Thats why so many bpos got traded in the last 5 months for insane amounts of isk. Fear...

(3)
Last but not least. I like Akita trolls.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.10 16:12:00 - [186]
 

Quote:
T2 BPOs are an artifact of a lame lottery mechanism that gave too much reward to too few people, creating a caste systems of haves and have nots which resulted in hate and discontent.

SO WHAT if it resulted in a few whiny babies that can't even be bothered to do invention properly complaining about their existence ? Do we care about people that can't afford big-ticket items otherwise ?
SO WHAT if some people hate the self-imagined separation this allegedly creates ? Do we care about people that just can't seem to get into a 0.0 alliance, or don't seem to be able to successfully PvP ? How's this any different from economic PvP ?
No, this whole approach is completely bogus.

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
So I can go out and invent Windows, and it would be identicle to Microsoft's. And every time I sell it, I have to reinvent it again for each customer?

That's not what I meant, and you know it.

Quote:
Any attempt to link EVE to RW is lame. Infinate respawning materials, infinate inflow of cash from missions, have to re-invent the wheel each manufactruing job, infinate inflow of modules from rat drops wihtout corresponding demand/purchase of those modules, etc. etc.

Right... because from a PRACTICAL standpoint, in real-life, we don't have renewable resources, recycling, our banks "do NOT" create money out of thin air, nobody ever bothered starting something else that was done before from ground up, and so on and so forth.

It's NOT LAME to attempt to DRAW PARALLELS between EVE and RL.
What IS lame is to demand EVE be changed to mirror RL more closely at the detriment of gameplay.
Hey, guess what exactly you did, keep doing and just did ? EXACTLY THAT ! You are using perceived RL values to demand a change in the way EVE works ! Because last time I checked, EVE wasn't exactly touting its fairness and equality, quite the contrary, EVE has always been about hypercapitalism and dangerous, cut-throat environments (for both the simulated world and mindset).

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.10 16:17:00 - [187]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 10/08/2010 16:22:32
Originally by: Aesahettre
I know what t2 BPOs are but you seem not.

Oh really ? Don't I ?
What about this tidbit from the BACKSTORY of EVE regarding the invention process then ?
[...]"You really are doing the same thing as before, improving the design of an item. You're just getting a little computerized help to do it, and you end up with something new, in this case a copy of a tech 2 blueprint. We'd have liked to make originals, but the DRM on these things is horrendous, so we only have permission to make copies"[...]
Twisted Evil

Quote:
No, that idea is phsychologically seen just existend because you cant let go ...of your bpos and you know its going to happen sooner or later. Thats why so many bpos got traded in the last 5 months for insane amounts of isk. Fear...

Fear on the seller side, you mean ? Probably some might have been afraid. But... you seem to conveniently ignore the flipside... SOMEBODY ELSE PAID TO PURCHASE THEM, and it wasn't at exactly rock-bottom prices. For every person that was afraid, there was another one not just confident, but also rich enough.

Quote:
Last but not least. I like Akita trolls.

Me too ! Very Happy

Tset Tsun
Posted - 2010.08.10 16:38:00 - [188]
 

Originally by: Akita T
* the "lucky" older players didn't exactly get them by twiddling their thumbs

Duh, I know they had to put in RP time to have a chance to win the LOTTERY.
So yes, some luck was involved and that's all that was meant.

Originally by: Akita T
the whole mechanic was NOT changed

Sorry, Are Tech 2 BPO's still available to the general public from a lottery?
Nope Think not. So yes, the game mechanics have changed.


Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Tset Tsun
Give you (the older player) a fair market return on the T2 BPO. (Since from the post it can always be bought, Ahemm cough, cough, Right)

Yes, yes, sure... now please do establish WHAT EXACTLY such a "fair return" would be.


How many years do you think they should profit with an option (Lottery, not buying, come on jeesh)?
Kind of a tit for tat point.
By the way if you can point me to a Hulk or Mack BPO I would appreciate it.
Like always if the price is right.

Again if CCP would tweak invention a bit I think this would all still be a mute point.
But not holding my breath on that one.

Originally by: Akita T
ALL OF THAT FREAKING ISK HITTING THE GAME ECONOMY AT THE EXACT SAME TIME LIKE A JACKHAMMER.

I seem to remember an exploit not so long ago, (Or mayby it was - Getting old you know) that was falsely putting TRILLIONS of isk into the market and yet, we're still here.

For so many people supposedly not making any profit on Tech 2 BPO's and for Someone not having any Tech 2's it seems there is an awful lot of concern about it. hmmm?
I think thou doth protest too much.
Ah well, Some topics just aren't worth the time.
Wasted energy, which in space is a no, noExclamation

Like I said in my original post.
Originally by: Tset Tsun
For the most, part I couldn't really care less other than the above thought above about the whole topic.....
Let's fix invention, but first fix that crappy PI clickfest. (Off Topic I know, but I couldn't help myself-Again!)


I still honestly don't see why this is a big issue again all of the sudden.
We've all been told CCP is focusing on Dust and 'Walking in stations'
Does anyone really expect this to be changingQuestion
Unless I missed a dev note somewhere. (Sure not impossible in these forums.)

Have fun Akita and I wish you well, I"m on to newer an more profitable things.

Tset

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.10 17:01:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Tset Tsun
Originally by: Akita T
ALL OF THAT FREAKING ISK HITTING THE GAME ECONOMY AT THE EXACT SAME TIME LIKE A JACKHAMMER.

I seem to remember an exploit not so long ago, (Or mayby it was - Getting old you know) that was falsely putting TRILLIONS of isk into the market and yet, we're still here.

It was putting in materials worth a whole lot of ISK, but no actual ISK. It had the exact opposite effect of what would happen if T2 BPOs were "reimbursed" and destroyed.
Wink

Rikki Sals
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.10 17:57:00 - [190]
 

Edited by: Rikki Sals on 10/08/2010 22:07:06
Tech 2 BPOs hurt perception of EVE by the unwashed masses; that is, the ENTIRE group of people that represent the potential growth of EVE subscribership. It is difficult to explain to people why they shouldn't envy the possession of an item that not only appreciates in value over time as a collector's item, but also generates a more probable revenue over what current game mechanics allow. Since there are very few of them, their removal or alteration will effect very few people, but remedy the situation in the eyes of many. Purchasers of Tech 2 BPOs do so taking this possibility into account. This is sufficient reason for their alteration or removal.

Edit:
Also, I actually suspect that it is only a matter of time before CCP takes some sort of action on Tech 2 BPOs, as their commitment to Incarna to broaden the appeal of EVE, and their original blog on deep safe spot removal, indicate.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.10 18:05:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Rikki Sals
Tech 2 BPOs hurt perception of EVE by the unwashed masses; that is, the ENTIRE group of people that represent the potential growth of EVE subscribership. It is difficult to explain to people why they shouldn't envy the possession of an item that not only appreciates in value over time as a collector's item, but also generates a more probable revenue over what current game mechanics allow. Since there are very few of them, their removal or alteration will effect very few people, but remedy the situation in the eyes of many. Purchasers of Tech 2 BPOs do so taking this possibility into account. This is sufficient reason for their alteration or removal.

Are you HONESTLY advocating the bowdlerization of the game in order to appease the masses as a GOOD thing ?
What's next, non-consensual PvP and wardecs in highsec ?

Berikath
Posted - 2010.08.10 19:59:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: Akita T
the bowdlerization of the game



.... wut?

Searched on bowdlerization, and..... it's censorship. How would removing T2 BPOs be censoring anyone?

Also, why would you ever choose such an arcane synonym for censorship?

Narfas Deteis
Posted - 2010.08.10 20:03:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: Berikath
Originally by: Akita T
the bowdlerization of the game



.... wut?

Searched on bowdlerization, and..... it's censorship. How would removing T2 BPOs be censoring anyone?

Also, why would you ever choose such an arcane synonym for censorship?


This word should be removed because it's not available for the masses and gives Akita unfair advantage!!!one

Rikki Sals
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.10 20:29:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: Akita T

Are you HONESTLY advocating the bowdlerization of the game in order to appease the masses as a GOOD thing ?



Yes. Twisted Evil

Voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
Posted - 2010.08.10 23:28:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: Rikki Sals
Originally by: Akita T

Are you HONESTLY advocating the bowdlerization of the game in order to appease the masses as a GOOD thing ?



Yes. Twisted Evil


Then would you support CCP giving every player 100 billion ISK? Right from EVE central bank?

If it was put to a vote do you think it would win?

What would happen if every player suddenly had 100 billion ISK in their wallets?

Hint: The same thing if the US government or any countries government gave everybody lots of money.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.10 23:37:00 - [196]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 10/08/2010 23:40:05

Originally by: Voogru
If it was put to a vote do you think it would win?

The scary part ? It probably almost certainly would.

Originally by: Berikath
Originally by: Akita T
the bowdlerization of the game

.... wut? Searched on bowdlerization, and..... it's censorship. How would removing T2 BPOs be censoring anyone ?
Also, why would you ever choose such an arcane synonym for censorship?

It's actually "removing or changing the parts deemed offensive or objectionable", and it fits the context of the quote that contains stuff like "hurt perception".
Also, seriously, arcane ? TVTropes would like to have a word with you...

Originally by: Narfas Deteis
This word should be removed because it's not available for the masses and gives Akita unfair advantage!!!one

Very Happy

TooFatToFish
Posted - 2010.08.10 23:40:00 - [197]
 

Remove T2 missile BPO's
Reason- annoying spam in the WTS forum

Esculia
Gallente
Deep Space Corporation
Posted - 2010.08.11 00:58:00 - [198]
 

What i see here is that some people are really angry about this issue. It seems to be an unbalance for a large part of the game community, for another large part, the people that want some changes are all whinners so they arguments have no value and they are wasting space on forums with each thread/post.

What i think is that the problem exists, because boths sides of the argment have some merit we still didnt reach a good solution. I dont believe that just dissmising the opinions of such a large part of the community is really good.

What i believe is that CCP must choose how they want the production of T2 items being handled (actual system is just generating to many discussions)

For what i see there are two possible answers:
First one:
- T2 BPO must go from the game because invention is the way to go so all players have the same opportunity.
The alternative one:
- T2 BPO are good for the game, so we will fix invention so all players have some opportunity go get them. The chances need to be really slim, maybe 1/10000 or even 1/100000 but the perception of players will be really different if they know they could get one, even if it is almost impossible to get one this way.

Just my 2 cents (but if each post is worth 2 cents this topic is already worth millons)

alittlebirdy
Posted - 2010.08.11 02:18:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: alittlebirdy
Hmmm t2 bpo = money press...

A little bird told me you didn't really even bother to skim the thread, let alone read it.
If you would have, you would have noticed your assumption debunked multiple times.



Are you stupid? If I can sit and run off copys... and sell them for omfg money... (go check contracts sometime, forgot who was selling +5me ishtar bpc for retarđed money...) ALL bpo's are money presses, however ALL bpos cept t2 ANYONE can buy...

If you somehow think a BPO is not a money press, well can I haz your drugs?

Rikki Sals
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.11 02:39:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: Voogru

Then would you support CCP giving every player 100 billion ISK? Right from EVE central bank?

If it was put to a vote do you think it would win?

What would happen if every player suddenly had 100 billion ISK in their wallets?

Hint: The same thing if the US government or any countries government gave everybody lots of money.


Actually, it probably wouldn't be anything like if a real government gave everyone lots of money, seeing as it is an internet spaceship game.

Though a humorous proposition, that is not something I would support. Wink

My response was intended for this specific case, but as Akita T's post was a leading question, I'll clarify.

In this instance, a large group appear to believe that:

Collector's items that
-Function only as such, due to risk aversion to their accidental loss
-Get priced as such
-Serve as rewards and vanity items

= Good

A limited number of items that
-Confer the ability to take advantage of a more efficient and convenient game mechanic
-Will never go up in number
-Will never be used by over 99.9% of people playing EVE
-Perform a function now fulfilled by a different mechanic that is intended to be theoretically doable by all players of EVE
-Are freely utilized without risk of accidental loss

= Bad

I tend to agree. Cool

Bluebeard
Minmatar
LoneStar Industries
Comatose Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.11 11:06:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: alittlebirdy
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: alittlebirdy
Hmmm t2 bpo = money press...

A little bird told me you didn't really even bother to skim the thread, let alone read it.
If you would have, you would have noticed your assumption debunked multiple times.



Are you stupid? If I can sit and run off copys... and sell them for omfg money... (go check contracts sometime, forgot who was selling +5me ishtar bpc for retarđed money...) ALL bpo's are money presses, however ALL bpos cept t2 ANYONE can buy...

If you somehow think a BPO is not a money press, well can I haz your drugs?


Confirming that the following threads do not really exist:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1366725
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1365651
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1365603
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1367141
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1285353
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1364453
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1366442

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.11 14:03:00 - [202]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 11/08/2010 14:05:16
Originally by: alittlebirdy
If I can sit and run off copys... and sell them for omfg money... (go check contracts sometime, forgot who was selling +5me ishtar bpc for retarđed money...) ALL bpo's are money presses, however ALL bpos cept t2 ANYONE can buy... If you somehow think a BPO is not a money press, well can I haz your drugs?

First off, anyone can buy any T2 BPO. The only REAL difference between T1 BPOs and T2 BPOs is that the supply is not infinite and the price is highly variable for T2 BPOs.

Second, I strongly suggest you look around and try to figure out what exactly makes more ISK from a T2 blueprint, manufacturing from it or making copies then manufacturing from it. You will find that direct manufacture is almost always at least as profitable regardless of circumstances, and that in general, direct manufacture is noticeably more profitable. Whoever purchases overpriced BPCs instead of purchasing the item itself has a serious problem.

Finally, you pretty much just said it yourself, in YOUR eyes, all BPOs are "money presses", not just T2 BPOs. So the only LOGICAL (as opposed to emotional) reason to do anything at all would be if in general, T2 BPOs would be RADICALLY more profitable than T1 BPOs. As it turns out, ever since invention came around, that's NO LONGER THE CASE.


In other words, the only marginally relevant argument you could possibly make is to slightly buff invention to lower T2 BPO profitability a tad bit more than it already dropped post-invention.
You have absolutely no good argument for the outright removal of T2 BPOs.

Rikki Sals
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.11 15:23:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: Akita T
First off, anyone can buy any T2 BPO.
Except not. And you even say as much in your next line. There is absolutely no gaurantee that at a high enough price, a given T2 BPO holder would be willing to sell their BPO. For many of the most profitable Tech 2 BPOs, the owner would only part with the item if they had completely lost interest in the game, or if the offered sum was incredibly large to the point that really only a handful of people could even make the offer, and would only ever do so jokingly. These people are in general already traders, highly profitable Tech II BPO holders, or Alliance leadership. Such is the perceived value of profitable Tech II BPOs by their owners.

Originally by: Akita T
So the only LOGICAL (as opposed to emotional) reason to do anything at all would be if in general, T2 BPOs would be RADICALLY more profitable than T1 BPOs.



Please explain this line.

"Radically" different? Faction and deadspace modules, which in many cases only differ from next-best options by 1-5% in an attribute or two, often go for ten times the price of next-best options. Many highly profitable, high volume trades can be made with profit margins of less than 1%.

Any difference at all between Tech 2 production costs from a BPO versus invention can be seen as radical.

I also contest that the profitability being radically different is the ONLY LOGICAL reason for a change to be made. Removal of anomalous game mechanics, improvement of perceived competitiveness for new players, removing the excess supply of low demand Tech 2 items that exist due to BPOs, and cleaning up of the S&I forums are all very logical reasons for CCP to make a change to Tech 2 BPOs. Very Happy

Narfas Deteis
Posted - 2010.08.11 15:37:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: Rikki Sals

Except not. And you even say as much in your next line. There is absolutely no gaurantee that at a high enough price, a given T2 BPO holder would be willing to sell their BPO.
[cut]



Well, I believe it's time to remove this unlimited and artificial supply of T1 BPOs. Also skillboks and implants.

All NPC sell orders have to go!

It's called "player driven market".

I hope T2 BPO market is a good start and playground for further changes.

Now I watch threads like "POS owners DESERVE cheap fuel" and I enjoy all these whines.

Player driven market FTW! If you want to buy something you have to find someone who wants to sell it and it's good.

Lets get rid of all NPC orders. Time has come. Cool

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.08.11 15:43:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: Rikki Sals
Originally by: Akita T
First off, anyone can buy any T2 BPO.
Except not. And you even say as much in your next line. There is absolutely no gaurantee that at a high enough price, a given T2 BPO holder would be willing to sell their BPO. For many of the most profitable Tech 2 BPOs, the owner would only part with the item if they had completely lost interest in the game, or if the offered sum was incredibly large to the point that really only a handful of people could even make the offer, and would only ever do so jokingly. These people are in general already traders, highly profitable Tech II BPO holders, or Alliance leadership. Such is the perceived value of profitable Tech II BPOs by their owners.

Originally by: Akita T
So the only LOGICAL (as opposed to emotional) reason to do anything at all would be if in general, T2 BPOs would be RADICALLY more profitable than T1 BPOs.



Please explain this line.

"Radically" different? Faction and deadspace modules, which in many cases only differ from next-best options by 1-5% in an attribute or two, often go for ten times the price of next-best options. Many highly profitable, high volume trades can be made with profit margins of less than 1%.

Any difference at all between Tech 2 production costs from a BPO versus invention can be seen as radical.

I also contest that the profitability being radically different is the ONLY LOGICAL reason for a change to be made. Removal of anomalous game mechanics, improvement of perceived competitiveness for new players, removing the excess supply of low demand Tech 2 items that exist due to BPOs, and cleaning up of the S&I forums are all very logical reasons for CCP to make a change to Tech 2 BPOs. Very Happy


Dont be dense. Akita said CAN. Zero chance and a chance are two totally different situations. I wait for bpos to come available all the time. If you cant...tough. Bye.

Radically statement. T2 bpo's are profitable some arent. They ARE NOT anymore epic though compared to a good inventor. Dont argue this point it will get you burnt bad.


Besides all this you are a nit picking troll way worse than i could ever be. You grind verbage so insanely you could probably make the U.S. Constitution sound fascist.

Rikki Sals
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.11 15:44:00 - [206]
 

Edited by: Rikki Sals on 11/08/2010 15:49:43
Originally by: Narfas Deteis

Lets get rid of all NPC orders. Time has come. Cool


Stop it, I might have a econ-nerdgasm. Laughing

It would be fantastic if there was a different game mechanic to generate BPOs than simply via NPC sell orders.

Edit:
Jovial, what on Earth are you blabbering about?

Berikath
Posted - 2010.08.11 16:39:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: Rikki Sals
Edited by: Rikki Sals on 11/08/2010 15:49:43
Originally by: Narfas Deteis

Lets get rid of all NPC orders. Time has come. Cool


Stop it, I might have a econ-nerdgasm. Laughing

It would be fantastic if there was a different game mechanic to generate BPOs than simply via NPC sell orders.

Edit:
Jovial, what on Earth are you blabbering about?
LP stores?

I mean, they already sell BPCs, and some skill books are only available through them, right?

Maybe add a new group that sells BPOs, and has "industry" missions (like the mining missions) where you deliver produced goods in bulk for market price across eve (modified down by how many people do that mission) + LPs? LVL 1 missions take something like missiles or hybrid charges, and higher levels take more valuable goods? I mean, it kinds of makes sense.... SOMEBODY must supply faction navies and such, why shouldn't capsuleers be able to take out supply contracts w/ governments?

Say, maybe storyline missions require tech 2 goods or something, and give a random max-run BPC?

Not sure if it would really be the best idea, but it would at least be interesting... and it would give people something to do if they have excess manufacturing capacity and can't figure out what to make.

I must say, I would kind of appreciate being able to get BPOs for 20% ISK, 80% LPs instead of 100% ISK. I shudder to think how much stuff you'd have to build to get a titan BPO, tho... o.0

Rikki Sals
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.11 16:58:00 - [208]
 

@Berikath
That's an interesting option, but IMO industry is already a bit more dependent on missions than it ought to be. Faction items depend on the lp store/pve combat drops, which makes sense, but datacore supply is already dependent on players running a lot of missions for standings grind. Some sort of research/invention mechanic for production/chance of production of BPOs could be pretty interesting, and wouldn't require skilling for missioning activities for the industry minded.

Narfas Deteis
Posted - 2010.08.11 17:00:00 - [209]
 

Edited by: Narfas Deteis on 11/08/2010 17:07:11
Originally by: Berikath

LP stores?
[cut]



No.
No.
NO WAY.
Enough of these crappy missions. And I wouldn't call it "player driven market" anyway.

How about this: new POS module, or new use for Experimental Laboratory.
You have to sacrifice built item on the altar of probability god to have a chance for:
1) 1 run T1 BPC (high chance, like 75%)
2) full run T1 BPC (say, 20% chance)
2) T1 BPO (tiny chance, 1-3%)

Chances should be partly skill dependant.

In other words, it's some form of reverse engeneering.

Shortly, ammo BPOs should be stupidly cheap, but capital BPOs... it's different story.

Diversity. I like it.

Anyway, this is the first idea what came to my mind. Maybe not the best one, but using LP stores is a no-no.

Edit: using this method you could also reverse engeneer Meta modules, both "named" (Meta Level 1-4) and faction/deadspace/officer. In this case chances should be lower (REALLY low if it comes to officer modules) and no chance for BPO. WIN!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.11 17:06:00 - [210]
 

Originally by: Rikki Sals
Originally by: Akita T
First off, anyone can buy any T2 BPO.
Except not. And you even say as much in your next line. There is absolutely no gaurantee that at a high enough price, a given T2 BPO holder would be willing to sell their BPO.

But there IS a guarantee that at any given time, many of the owners of the T2 BPOs would be willing to part from it for a high enough price. So, you CAN buy any T2 BPO that exists. It's not impossible. It's just hard and expensive.

Originally by: Rikki Sals
Originally by: Akita T
So the only LOGICAL (as opposed to emotional) reason to do anything at all would be if in general, T2 BPOs would be RADICALLY more profitable than T1 BPOs.

Please explain this line.
"Radically" different?

Can't you even see what you quote ?
It says "radically MORE profitable".
As in, how much ISK can you make with them per time unit, how much ISK can you make for a certain amount of ISK invested, or a combination of those two.

ISK made / ISK invested ? T2 BPOs are on average the _worst_ ones, just about any T1 BPO beats them in that regard.
ISK made / time ? A select few T2 BPOs make more than some of the better T1 BPOs, the vast majority of T2 BPO types doesn't even come close to the top of the T1 BPO ranking, and some T2 BPOs, you can't even use to make any profit at all.

Quote:
Any difference at all between Tech 2 production costs from a BPO versus invention can be seen as radical.

No, it can't. At best, it can be seen as a mild advantage that comes at a great cost, either actual cost, or potential ISK not made by deciding to not sell the BPO. Overall, the benefits just about break even with the disadvantages, and that's quite damn normal.


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