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Fumitsugu Sylwia
Posted - 2010.08.03 11:40:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Voogru
Originally by: Drojdier
Oh, and there are also those that claim that T2 BPOs and limited edition ships/items in-game create social class problems....those people have different and way deeper issues and I doubt any move from CCP will be able to cure them.


We have a name for these kinds of people. Idiots.


Better. Personally, I'm all for paid sick leave and holiday, minimum wages, and some sort of state provision for pensions and sick people.

Please don't class me with the T2 BPO whiners.

Thanks.

Voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
Posted - 2010.08.03 11:50:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Fumitsugu Sylwia
Originally by: Voogru
Originally by: Drojdier
Oh, and there are also those that claim that T2 BPOs and limited edition ships/items in-game create social class problems....those people have different and way deeper issues and I doubt any move from CCP will be able to cure them.


We have a name for these kinds of people. Idiots.


Better. Personally, I'm all for paid sick leave and holiday, minimum wages, and some sort of state provision for pensions and sick people.

Please don't class me with the T2 BPO whiners.

Thanks.


State provisions for pensions (social security) and sick people ('free' healthcare), requires confiscation of assets from 'rich people' in order to pay for them.

Asking CCP to take away T2 BPO's for the perceived benefits of the inventors is not much different. There is a whole slew of economic issues with the other things you mentioned but thats way to off-topic.

Fumitsugu Sylwia
Posted - 2010.08.03 12:14:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Voogru
Originally by: Fumitsugu Sylwia
Originally by: Voogru
Originally by: Drojdier
Oh, and there are also those that claim that T2 BPOs and limited edition ships/items in-game create social class problems....those people have different and way deeper issues and I doubt any move from CCP will be able to cure them.


We have a name for these kinds of people. Idiots.


Better. Personally, I'm all for paid sick leave and holiday, minimum wages, and some sort of state provision for pensions and sick people.

Please don't class me with the T2 BPO whiners.

Thanks.


State provisions for pensions (social security) and sick people ('free' healthcare), requires confiscation of assets from 'rich people' in order to pay for them.

Asking CCP to take away T2 BPO's for the perceived benefits of the inventors is not much different. There is a whole slew of economic issues with the other things you mentioned but thats way to off-topic.


It's very different. You must be American.

Voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
Posted - 2010.08.03 12:36:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Fumitsugu Sylwia
It's very different. You must be American.


T2 BPO whiners want T2 BPO's removed (read: confiscation) for the 'greater good' of the game.

Not sure how this is 'very different'.

Fumitsugu Sylwia
Posted - 2010.08.03 13:00:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Voogru
Originally by: Fumitsugu Sylwia
It's very different. You must be American.


T2 BPO whiners want T2 BPO's removed (read: confiscation) for the 'greater good' of the game.

Not sure how this is 'very different'.


Firstly, because it's a game!

Secondly because everyone can benefit from a subsidised health system. Everyone has the potential to benefit from paid sick leave. Equally, everyone get's taxed. On average, people live longer. Nobody whines about an alternative, even though there are some.

On the other hand, the only people who benefit from T2 BPOs are their owners. No one else is affected. Tarawa whines Smile


Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.08.03 13:07:00 - [156]
 

Edited by: Jovialmadness on 03/08/2010 13:09:08
Originally by: Fumitsugu Sylwia
Originally by: Voogru
Originally by: Fumitsugu Sylwia
Originally by: Voogru


We have a name for these kinds of people. Idiots.


Better. Personally, I'm all for paid sick leave and holiday, minimum wages, and some sort of state provision for pensions and sick people.

Please don't class me with the T2 BPO whiners.

Thanks.


State provisions for pensions (social security) and sick people ('free' healthcare), requires confiscation of assets from 'rich people' in order to pay for them.

Asking CCP to take away T2 BPO's for the perceived benefits of the inventors is not much different. There is a whole slew of economic issues with the other things you mentioned but thats way to off-topic.


It's very different. You must be American.


You definition righteous guys make me giggle. I already had to burn one other dreamer who doesnt understand the fundamentals of government.

Apparently its a naughty subject due to several socialists on these forums having totally different views on what exactly they stand for. The problem you guys have is no different than arguing about religion. If you believe in your views so strongly you feel its the best way for you and everyone else. Those views become so strong you might actually think its a better way of life especially if that is all you have known.

France, germany, england and even the united states have all dabbled in socialist policies intermingled with government forms that tend to differ. Understanding that the government itself might not be socialist but some of its policies are is key. Understanding what a socialist policy IS is key.

Still if you think socialism is awesome then no matter what is said about it you will always return to your defense mechanism of pointing out others are wrong both about how bad it is for personal growth and about the definition.

Voogru is making a point that is simple and ive made it before. Eve is packed full of uniqueness. Citing just two examples one being two players meeting on the field of battle with the probability of their ships, fits, skillpoints and skill types being different and UNFAIR and the other being expensive one of a kind items. Changing either of those two and all the other "unequal" aspects by REMOVING them from players by force and either destroying them or reallocating them to make the game "equal" is not capitalism. Its not free market. Its not pro private enterprise. Tell me just WTF exactly it is? Players FORCING other players to make economic changes without the interferance of CCP is more equal to what?





Voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
Posted - 2010.08.03 13:26:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Fumitsugu Sylwia
Originally by: Voogru
Originally by: Fumitsugu Sylwia
It's very different. You must be American.


T2 BPO whiners want T2 BPO's removed (read: confiscation) for the 'greater good' of the game.

Not sure how this is 'very different'.


Firstly, because it's a game!

Secondly because everyone can benefit from a subsidised health system. Everyone has the potential to benefit from paid sick leave. Equally, everyone get's taxed. On average, people live longer. Nobody whines about an alternative, even though there are some.

On the other hand, the only people who benefit from T2 BPOs are their owners. No one else is affected. Tarawa whines Smile




Firstly, this is a game built on CAPITALISM and you're trying to mix SOCIALISM with it.

Secondly, the non-producers benefit from the T2 BPO owners undercutting inventors (at least thats what inventors say happens), resulting in cheaper T2 items for the masses of players.


Originally by: Fumitsugu Sylwia
Equally, everyone get's taxed.


No, only the people with assets and money get taxed. Taxes go up, people decide it's not worth it to produce and go on the welfare bandwagon, as more people get on the welfare bandwagon it requires higher taxes to pay for it, so more people give up and join the welfare bandwagon. You then have more people on the bandwagon with fewer people to pull it.

As time goes on there are fewer and fewer people pulling the bandwagon, with more and more people jumping on the wagon, the wagon progressivly gets slower and slower until eventually nobody is left to pull it.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.08.03 13:43:00 - [158]
 

Edited by: Jovialmadness on 03/08/2010 13:50:39
Quote:
No, only the people with assets and money get taxed. Taxes go up, people decide it's not worth it to produce and go on the welfare bandwagon, as more people get on the welfare bandwagon it requires higher taxes to pay for it, so more people give up and join the welfare bandwagon. You then have more people on the bandwagon with fewer people to pull it. As time goes on there are fewer and fewer people pulling the bandwagon, with more and more people jumping on the wagon, the wagon progressivly gets slower and slower until eventually nobody is left to pull it.


Yep the key though is to not make it attractive. Once you do the above actually would come true. In the case of socialized medicine all the guys ive talked to(i play raquetball with some docs) told me this.

Listen to this carefully guys...

Ill never forget this. He said, "i make 650k a year. This healthcare bill they are trying to get passed isnt really an issue yet. If the system trully goes to socialized medicine my salary will drop to 100-200k a year. All morals and ethics aside, would you want to be on my operating table?"

Of course the douche bags will say they have an ethical responsibility to patients. They will say docs will adjust. Well if you ask canadian docs they are happy as a clam i wont argue that. Bill clinton and osama bin laden also didnt go to canada for treatment even though hillarycare would have increased the mortality rate of heart attacks in all those but the elites and bin laden is trying to destroy us. They both had procedures here in the united states.

Let those docs know just how you feel too! Tell them they are obligated to help you even if they live in a house and drive a car thats the same as that janitor down the street. You tell them that! I say pay them what they diserve.


Ccp bout time to lock this baby.

Fumitsugu Sylwia
Posted - 2010.08.03 13:48:00 - [159]
 

Edited by: Fumitsugu Sylwia on 03/08/2010 13:49:14
Originally by: Jovialmadness

France, germany, england and even the united states have all dabbled in socialist policies intermingled with government forms that tend to differ. Understanding that the government itself might not be socialist but some of its policies are is key. Understanding what a socialist policy IS is key.

Still if you think socialism is awesome then no matter what is said about it you will always return to your defense mechanism of pointing out others are wrong both about how bad it is for personal growth and about the definition.



Who said I thought socialism was awesome, or that I was a socialist? I pointed out some "socialist" policies are now standard in many otherwise capitalist countries and that many benefit from them, in response to Voogru's rather black and white post that equated BPO whiners to Socialists.
This point of view, I have only heard expressed by Americans who continue to buy into their convenient myth of freedom that is overtly and covertly supported by the US' economic oligarchy because it helps them (the de facto rulers of the US) get richer.



Originally by: Voogru
Originally by: Fumitsugu Sylwia
Originally by: Voogru
Originally by: Fumitsugu Sylwia
It's very different. You must be American.


T2 BPO whiners want T2 BPO's removed (read: confiscation) for the 'greater good' of the game.

Not sure how this is 'very different'.


Firstly, because it's a game!

Secondly because everyone can benefit from a subsidised health system. Everyone has the potential to benefit from paid sick leave. Equally, everyone get's taxed. On average, people live longer. Nobody whines about an alternative, even though there are some.

On the other hand, the only people who benefit from T2 BPOs are their owners. No one else is affected. Tarawa whines Smile




Firstly, this is a game built on CAPITALISM and you're trying to mix SOCIALISM with it.




If you actually read my posts, instead of blindly responding to my bait, you would see that I am really not. You just can't call BPO whiners socialists purely because they are jealous of T2 BPO owners. There is plenty of actual socialism in Eve however, just not in this case.

Originally by: Voogru

Secondly, the non-producers benefit from the T2 BPO owners undercutting inventors (at least thats what inventors say happens), resulting in cheaper T2 items for the masses of players.



It's actually the other way around in most cases. How can a minority of items dictate prices to the majority?

Originally by: Voogru
Originally by: Fumitsugu Sylwia
Equally, everyone gets taxed.


No, only the people with assets and money get taxed. Taxes go up, people decide it's not worth it to produce and go on the welfare bandwagon, as more people get on the welfare bandwagon it requires higher taxes to pay for it, so more people give up and join the welfare bandwagon. You then have more people on the bandwagon with fewer people to pull it.


I've heard this argument before, and it does not stand in developed countries with low unemployment, primarily because everyone works, and secondarily because the level of welfare is miserable, at least in the UK. It is basically there to stop you from starving to death, which would have a larger negative impact than the state giving you 30 pounds a week if you are unemployed and which you can only claim if you are actively jobhunting. Therefore there is an incentive to contribute to the economy.

ed. Jovial is right, let's lock this awful thread

Enal Angus
Posted - 2010.08.03 14:50:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: adriaans
Edited by: adriaans on 31/07/2010 00:52:21
Stop blaming t2 bpo's... it's stupid idiotic moron inventors who undercut WAY to much that makes for the pathetic profits... INVENTORS SETS THE PRICE!


where do these idiots come from? The inventors who want something sold sell at market price which is controlled by supply and demand. If demand is higher, everyone can make a profit. If not, only those with the lowest margins can compete. Bpo:s have lower margins, ergo: bpo:s set the lowest ossible price and inventors will fall off the cart.

heheheh
Phoenix Club
Posted - 2010.08.03 14:58:00 - [161]
 

Edited by: heheheh on 03/08/2010 14:59:18
I used to argue for the removal of T2 BPos until i borrowed one for a while and realised how horrible they actually are, i can produce many many more T2 items from invented BPCs in any decent time slot, than i can with a BPO.
BPOs have lower margins, yes, but you can only put them in one slot at a time.
T2 BPo owners due to low production amounts, do not set the prices as far as i can see.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.08.03 15:18:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: heheheh
Edited by: heheheh on 03/08/2010 14:59:18
I used to argue for the removal of T2 BPos until i borrowed one for a while and realised how horrible they actually are, i can produce many many more T2 items from invented BPCs in any decent time slot, than i can with a BPO.
BPOs have lower margins, yes, but you can only put them in one slot at a time.
T2 BPo owners due to low production amounts, do not set the prices as far as i can see.



We state those who want them removed do so out of jealousy and financial gain. I personally have bpos because i both wanted them for collectable reasons and im limited in game time. Simply put they make generally moderate profits with massive upfront costs and less work.

Jealousy is a *****.

Enal Angus
Posted - 2010.08.03 15:31:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: heheheh
Edited by: heheheh on 03/08/2010 14:59:18
I used to argue for the removal of T2 BPos until i borrowed one for a while and realised how horrible they actually are, i can produce many many more T2 items from invented BPCs in any decent time slot, than i can with a BPO.
BPOs have lower margins, yes, but you can only put them in one slot at a time.
T2 BPo owners due to low production amounts, do not set the prices as far as i can see.

I wasn't aware a BPC could be used in many slots at once.

heheheh
Phoenix Club
Posted - 2010.08.03 15:33:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Enal Angus
Originally by: heheheh
Edited by: heheheh on 03/08/2010 14:59:18
I used to argue for the removal of T2 BPos until i borrowed one for a while and realised how horrible they actually are, i can produce many many more T2 items from invented BPCs in any decent time slot, than i can with a BPO.
BPOs have lower margins, yes, but you can only put them in one slot at a time.
T2 BPo owners due to low production amounts, do not set the prices as far as i can see.

I wasn't aware a BPC could be used in many slots at once.


Yet it seems you are unaware, that you can obtain many BPCs from invention.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.06 16:32:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Enal Angus
Originally by: adriaans
Stop blaming t2 bpo's... it's stupid idiotic moron inventors who undercut WAY to much that makes for the pathetic profits... INVENTORS SETS THE PRICE!

where do these idiots come from? The inventors who want something sold sell at market price which is controlled by supply and demand. If demand is higher, everyone can make a profit. If not, only those with the lowest margins can compete. Bpo:s have lower margins, ergo: bpo:s set the lowest ossible price and inventors will fall off the cart.

Oh, hey, what a surprise, your "argument" has been demolished in the OP. Look up #4.

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2010.08.06 20:50:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Enal Angus
Originally by: adriaans
Edited by: adriaans on 31/07/2010 00:52:21
Stop blaming t2 bpo's... it's stupid idiotic moron inventors who undercut WAY to much that makes for the pathetic profits... INVENTORS SETS THE PRICE!


where do these idiots come from? The inventors who want something sold sell at market price which is controlled by supply and demand. If demand is higher, everyone can make a profit. If not, only those with the lowest margins can compete. Bpo:s have lower margins, ergo: bpo:s set the lowest ossible price and inventors will fall off the cart.


yes i wonder where idiots like these come from... Rolling Eyes

read nr #4 of the OP.


bpo's does not set the price since they DO NOT meet demand, guess where that massive extra supply comes from.. oh yes inventors who undercut and dump massive stocks at break even or at a loss
(having people undercut me by 25k, 50k etc every 5 min is not uncommon and those are INVENTORS, not traders or bpo's holders, i do my research, and then more inventors undercut those again until someone buys them all out and ship it somewhere else(usually when it hits 25% loss for the inventors) and cycle starts again).

Inventors fill and by far oversupplies the demand, thus they set the price.



Berikath
Posted - 2010.08.06 23:41:00 - [167]
 

Good reason why to remove T2 BPOs:

The system was changed for a reason. The mechanic was removed from the game for a reason. Leaving the BPOs in the game sets up a dangerous double-standard that sometimes patch changes are retroactive, and sometimes they are not. If they ARE retroactive, then a savvy, knowledgeable player can prepare for the change, minimizing or eliminating the harm they suffer from said change. If they are NOT retroactive, then a new player has no way of attaining the same advantage at the same price the older player got it at.

Imagine if ship or module changes were only applied to those created AFTER the patch. An OP ship would still be just as OP, it just would become irreplaceable if destroyed... and therefore, far more valuable. Not only would this not FIX an imbalance, it would actually make it WORSE: those who are lucky enough to have the unnerfed ship would both retain their imbalanced advantage with the ADDED benefit that no new players could match their advantage, much less surpass it.


Good reasons not to remove T2 BPOs:

1. Removing BPOs of the low-demand items would render them either unavailable, or far more expensive. This would kind of suck for players looking to buy T2 ships or looking to fit with T2 modules... however the market would eventually adjust.

2. It would penalize the players who currently hold T2 BPOs- and would do so long after the initial round of changes were made, when it would have, by far, been the most reasonable time to do so.

3. The players who are penalized by removing the T2 BPOs would, by and large, not be the ones who got the benefit of being awarded those BPOs. The ones penalized would be the ones who invested legitimately-earned ISK in something they had every reason to expect would remain in the game.


IMHO- The FAIREST way to deal with the problem would be to:

1. Replace the T2 BPOs with a BPC of equal ME/PE with enough runs to keep it running constantly for 6 months (yes, this would almost certainly be above the run limit... I'm sure it could be worked out so that it could happen).

2. Provide the owners with compensation equal to the market value of the BPO. So, T2 BPOs sell for generally, what- the amount of profit you'd make by running it constantly for 2 years? Well, you have a BPC which gives you 6 months of that. Give the players the amount they would make in 1.5 years with it, either in straight liquid ISK (maybe not the best idea; that much instant ISK being created would probably lead to SIGNIFICANT inflation) or in a mix of raw materials at the average usage ratios CCP uses (which we know they have, since they said as much in the devblog about rebalancing meta0 drops and drone alloys). That way, they could sell the materials and be made (mostly) whole of what they lost, or they could get to work processing it up into widgets to sell, and make a profit on it. If they are big enough industrialists to buy T2 BPOs, they are probably big enough industrialists to be able to use several billion ISK worth of raw materials.


That said, it probably won't happen... and that might well be for the best. However, the status quo is less FAIR.

Ghoest
Posted - 2010.08.06 23:56:00 - [168]
 

Just posting to note that Kiras starter posts in this thread are perhaps her worst and least intellectually defensible posts ever.

Sikkukkut
Posted - 2010.08.07 00:50:00 - [169]
 

The good: the original idea to put some better ships in the game. T2 ships and stuff.

The bad: to make it happened leting only a handful of players actually own the T2 BPOs.

The ugly: make a good idea (T2 invention) come to life as the only way to control in some extent the ISK printing machine of the T2 BPOs owners.

What I see in this thread are some T2 BPOs crybabys owners afraid of CCP doing "something" in the near future about their "rights".

What they dont see is that CCP have already taken measures to limit their profit. First, the half-baked T2 invention and more recently T3 reverse engineering. Yes, its also very ugly. But "ISK speaking" works much better than T2 invention :)

I predict that CCP will nerf T2 more and more as to make it irrelevant.

Calgorac
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.08.07 18:15:00 - [170]
 

I use to own two bpo's both of which I bought one for 10 billions of isk and one for 3 billions
I produced both for a little over a year
then I sold the more expensive one for in excess of 30 billions of isk.. and let the less expensive one sit idle Because even running my POSs to make moon goo to build t2 components with and using my t2 components to produce that t2 bpo I was producing at a LOSS IE start with 1b in wallet and end cycle with LESS isk in wallet at start of next month.

That bpo sat idle for over a year and then I sold it for 7 billions of isk.. nothing has changed patch wise or market wise to make that bpo suddenly valuable. Its possible that one day that bpo could become profitable but I really doubt it.

Now I produce t1 items and t2 components using a fraction of the assets I had tied into my production before and making almost double the per month profit. I am thinking hard about weather to do invention myself..the only thing keeping me from doing invention myself is laziness.

Anyone who whines about T2 BPO's and how much of an unfair advantage it is.. save up some isk and buy one.
If you actually sat down without emotion and looked at the numbers you would see that your isk would be better spent invested in other things that are much more profitable.

Tuvar Hiede
Caldari
Quovis
Posted - 2010.08.08 08:17:00 - [171]
 

I vote bring back the lottery, let everyone have a chance at winning a fail BPO if they want to get T2 a shot at T2 standard missles since the BPO is random. Personally I have alot of research points saved up I'd throw in since I dont do T2 ATM, then also leave in T2 invention for those who do not win. I think its a win/win personally. U can be lazy and hope to win a BPO, or if your pretty active U can still invent. For those that sell the research cores maybe prices will increase alittle as well =-D

Rustynail79
Posted - 2010.08.08 11:34:00 - [172]
 

I've not been arsed reading most of this thread as it just flaming (end of page 2). Simple solution though imo would be to reintroduce T2 BPO as very very very rare lot drops for certain types of L5 missions.

I am a noob so I'm probably wrong but from what i understand L5 missions are very unpopular as its more profitable to solo L4 missions. If you introduced T2 BPO as very very very rare loot drops for L5 missions. You actually give players a reason to do L5 missions and also in a way sort out the T2 BPO problem.

Zenst
Hall Of Flame
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2010.08.08 14:19:00 - [173]
 

Edited by: Zenst on 08/08/2010 14:22:57
I personaly believe the current situation is unfair, But the T2 BPO's should not be removed!

Why is it unfair - very simply put it is a closed opertunity that goes against logic. If somebody invents something IRL it does not prevent others from inventing the same or better - there is no artificial cap. there is the aspect of copyright and royalties but again transposing that ingame is moot as there was more than 1 invented and pirates care not for copyright and as such they would all have there own illegal originals following that avenue of logic.

What to do.

Well CCP did moot introducing auctions and that with say one of each type offered for auction once per 1-3 months would be a fair way to address any unfairness. It simply boils down to a case of people playing early with non combat characters being more able to gain a advantage later on and being able to buy al the combat characters they could need and more with there only effort being luck.

Summary - T2 BPO's should stay, BUT others need to be introduced via auctions by CCP, if existing owners wish to maintain a monoply then there just as able as others to be able to make a bid. Perhaps bids could be in the form that they need so many RP's per bid - that would be fun.


Voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
Posted - 2010.08.08 14:46:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Zenst

Summary - T2 BPO's should stay, BUT others need to be introduced via auctions by CCP, if existing owners wish to maintain a monoply then there just as able as others to be able to make a bid. Perhaps bids could be in the form that they need so many RP's per bid - that would be fun.




And then slowly invention becomes worthless.

There is only one fair way to remove T2 BPO's. Turn the BPO's into patent licenses and add a 10% tax to all of those items, when they are sold, split the tax among all of the license holders.

The patent licenses can still be bought and sold, but can't be produced off of. They still provide passive income from the taxes.

This gets rid of 'competition from t2 bpos' for inventors, and keeps the t2 bpos as revenue generators like they are now.

alittlebirdy
Posted - 2010.08.09 01:09:00 - [175]
 

Hmmm t2 bpo = money press...
Ya sounds really good to have in the game.

But of course if you can just sit back and run off money you will want to keep t2 bpos in the game.

Also learn how a market works, if profits become too thin on t2, people will yes move away, prices will go up, people will invent them again... so the sht you state is flat out wrong let alone everything you call "invalid". Moon mats having a hard cap means nothing, if t2 bpo's are really making THAT large of a difference they REALLY need to be taken out.

T2 bpos are just money presses and do not belong in eve.

With t2 bpos just the people who have it make obscene amounts of isk for nothing, remove them, datacores are worth more, decrypters are worth more, bpcs go up, moon goo goes up (along with the fuel now that has gone up this would be nice) and the price of t2 aint gona go up more than it did from PI.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.09 07:21:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: alittlebirdy
Hmmm t2 bpo = money press...

A little bird told me you didn't really even bother to skim the thread, let alone read it.
If you would have, you would have noticed your assumption debunked multiple times.

Tset Tsun
Posted - 2010.08.09 20:44:00 - [177]
 

Edited by: Tset Tsun on 09/08/2010 20:48:35
Sorry, an item that is not available to all players in an MMORPG and just the few 'lucky' older players should have been removed when the whole game mechanic (ie Tech 2 BPO's/invention) was changed.
Give you (the older player) a fair market return on the T2 BPO.
(Since from the post it can always be bought, Ahemm cough, cough, Right)

I've had 4 accounts for about 4 years now.
For the most, part I couldn't really care less other than the above thought above about the whole topic

I invent the items I need and have about a hundred blueprints researched out as far as I'm going to go with those.

Let's fix invention, but first fix that crappy PI clickfest. (Off Topic I know, but I couldn't help myself)

RentableMuffin
Posted - 2010.08.09 23:49:00 - [178]
 

the only fair thing to do is seed t2 BPOs on the market! everyone can have one!

Narfas Deteis
Posted - 2010.08.10 00:05:00 - [179]
 


It's interesting how T2 BPO haters always avoid fact that they can buy such BPOs (as it did most of the current owners).

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.08.10 08:54:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Tset Tsun
Sorry, an item that is not available to all players in an MMORPG and just the few 'lucky' older players should have been removed when the whole game mechanic (ie Tech 2 BPO's/invention) was changed.

Hey, what do you know, you just hit one of the holy trifectas of invalid arguments ! Too bad it was mostly covered in the OP already (and more than just that soon after, but I guess it's too much to ask from people to read more than the thread title).

So, let's see...
* the items ARE available to all players (but the vast majority either can't afford one OR can afford but don't want one at that price... the exceptions to those two mini-rules WILL actually get a T2 BPO soon) ; just because YOU don't have something, it's not justifiable to ask nobody else should have it (especially if you could get one too but are unwilling to pay the price)
* the "lucky" older players didn't exactly get them by twiddling their thumbs, there was some fierce competition in getting the most RP so you would get the most chances at the lottery, winners tended to have quite a lot of RP stored up and they were all removed each time a BPO was given out, the non-winners got to cash out in form of datacores when invention came around ; also, the fact that MOST of the T2 BPO "lucky winners" just turned around and SOLD THEIR T2 BPOs, almost instantly invalidating your "lucky T2 BPO owner" argument - in fact, most T2 BPO owners (especially those of high-value blueprints) purchased them from somebody else, and the blueprints themselves each changed through quite a lot of hands
* the whole mechanic was NOT changed, invention was NOT meant as an outright replacement of T2 BPOs but as a pressure-release valve, one that worked so well that new items COULD be introduced for which T2 BPOs never existed ; if invention would have really been intended as a replacement of T2 BPOs, there would have been no logical reason to give it a -4/-4 starter attribute set, or at least, no reason to keep it at those stats for so long... and it is, by the way, one of the most trivial things to change, CCP could do it just about any time... but THEY DON'T ; shouldn't that tell you something about just how wrong your assumption was ?

Quote:
Give you (the older player) a fair market return on the T2 BPO. (Since from the post it can always be bought, Ahemm cough, cough, Right)

Yes, yes, sure... now please do establish WHAT EXACTLY such a "fair return" would be.

What about collector value ? I mean, there are skillbooks for sale that do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING BENEFICIAL, yet they still sell for even up to billions of ISK.
To keep it relatively fair, a half-decent starting point would be at least as much as the current buyer paid for it... but how exactly do you determine that when T2 BPOs aren't exactly always purchased cash down through contracts ? You have things like 3rd party trades, direct trades, trades involving not just ISK but also items and/or favors. And it's not like T2 BPOs have a stable selling price either.
You could go by relative profitability. How much DO you plan to figure it to be worth ? 3 years' worth of profit ? 5 ? 10 ? 100 ? Profit where and under what conditions ? Since, you know, different regions have different prices for materials and finished product. Also, some facilities build stuff faster. What about T2 BPOs that DO NOT yield a profit at all ? What exactly would be a fair compensation for those, remove ISK from owner's wallet while also removing the BPO ?

And after you finished concocting a formula for what exactly a fair recompense would be, now imagine ALL OF THAT FREAKING ISK HITTING THE GAME ECONOMY AT THE EXACT SAME TIME LIKE A JACKHAMMER.
Congratulations, you just screwed over so many people that you never even imagined you could screw over.

So, no, removing T2 BPOs for a "fair return" is not an option.


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