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blankseplocked To people that want to remove T2 BPOs : give a GOOD reason why
 
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Fumitsugu Sylwia
Posted - 2010.07.30 09:25:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Sturmwolke
Originally by: Fumitsugu Sylwia
I would argue that there are many common T1 BPOs around that fit that description, and could be described as "licences to print ISK". What's more, they are not in limited circulation, and will not cost you your arm, leg and a reasonable chunk of your liver to gain their ownership.


In which case I would argue your point is out of context.
You're missing the core argument based on a snippet of a sentence.



Not really. You are arguing that T2 BPOs remove the effort from manufacturing, cf:
Originally by: Sturmwolke
"You can manufacture almost afk. There are plenty of options to go about streamlining the manufacturing process, but it's pretty irrelevant given that there's nothing unique about it. The main general premise of this argument is that you make (guaranteed) isk with little effort in the industrial context."


My point is that T2 BPOs are not the only BPOs that can produce an almost guaranteed profit with little effort. Several of the T1 BPOs I own also out-perform the stuff I invent on a profit/slot/day basis, and require a fraction of the legwork and clicking.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.07.30 10:47:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Sturmwolke
You're mixing T1 and T2 production lines to establish a profitability point. That itself has problems - one which is fairly obvious. Understand the context of my previous post to see where "license to print ISK" is coming from. The gist are :
* little effort (bypassing invention)
* guaranteed profits (however big or small)

The gist of what you were saying is irrelevant, ISK is ISK no matter where you get it from.
There's also very little effort in setting up a lowball buy order for T2 items, it also bypasses invention, since I get them without effort, I just wait. Should that mean that the ability to trade is also a license to print ISK that has to be quashed ?
Also, talk about guaranteed profits to those people that WOULD LOSE MONEY if they would manufacture with their T2 BPOs... and yes, there are T2 items where not even a T2 BPO holder will see any profit (or profit so tiny as to not even matter).

T2 BPOs are not "a license to print ISK". They WERE, back before invention came around. Not anymore.

Obi Kayes
Posted - 2010.07.30 11:24:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: Obi Kayes on 30/07/2010 11:32:56
I'm a new character and I have no worries about T2 BPO's. To be honest if you set up mineral buy orders in the right system, haul to a central location and find the right station to sell your manufactured goods in, you can make more profit on a T1 item (by volume) than a T2 one. TBH if you're going to nerf anything nerf ME researching.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.07.30 14:11:00 - [94]
 

Akita is 100% absolutely correct. Back in the day i remember the cost of a cap charger II hovered around 30-35 mil a pop. Now i havent done the maths on what they cost to manufacture but using logic and basing its cost to manufacture on todays current pricing id guestimate they cost around 100-250k isk a pop.

They WERE a liscense to print isk at those former numbers. Getting that bpo then, with the ease of transport and manufacturing would be like the united states gov't giving you a currency printing press. Or the way things are heading now the chinese.

Ya know something...i make copies off one of my ammo bpos(its a good one) and give them to corp mates to manufacture off of and make some isk. I dont ask for any %'s or set numbers of return. I simply ask for whatever they want to throw my way. Why do i do this? Mainly because i like sharing my isk(no you cant have any) with friends. I also give ship and modules out at cost + a couple % points to my bros.

T2 bpo holders arent making what they used to make. They all arent bad evil money grubbing beasts. Some if not most try to help others and make a fun time for all involved.

And i still havent seen one arguement yet that would validate their removal or validate adding more to the game so a 6 month old with 100 mil in his pockets could get a cerebus bpo instantly.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.07.30 14:25:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Jovialmadness
Back in the day i remember the cost of a cap charger II hovered around 30-35 mil a pop.

More like 15-20 mil a pop, but still. I remember some selling for around 150 bil back in that day, and you could easily make a profit of 300 bil in a year from one. If they would have sold for 35 mil a piece, that would have been over 700 bil ISK per year from one.
Now, they still sell for up to 50 bil or thereabouts (the CRII BPOs), yet you can only make around 10 bil profit per year from one of them.

If that's not cutting off the "ISK printing" capabilities, I can't say what else is.

Cashews
Bastelrunde EV
People in Lousy Ships
Posted - 2010.07.30 14:33:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Sturmwolke
It's a license to print isk, completely removing the invention process, thus saving you the (click) pain, grief and hassles that goes into doing inventions. You can manufacture almost afk.


Invention might be a bit more work, but it is also scalable! While your fabulous T2 BPO can only occupy one production line at a time, you can use multiple production lines and alts simultaneously with invention.
T2 BPOs are not really relevant to the market but to the owners, hence perfectly fine.

SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar
Aperture Science inc.
Posted - 2010.07.30 14:36:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: SFX Bladerunner on 30/07/2010 14:40:36
The only reason anyone would want T2 BPO's removed from game is that they do not own them and/or cannot afford them.

/thread

Any other discussion is irrelevant.

edit: @ Cashews:
Ever heard of a little thing called 'blueprint copying' ?
You think T2 bpo owners produce right off of the bpo? You think that a T2 BPO doesn't spend it's entire life in a copying lab?
Think again.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.07.30 14:39:00 - [98]
 

Edited by: Jovialmadness on 30/07/2010 14:40:48
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Jovialmadness
Back in the day i remember the cost of a cap charger II hovered around 30-35 mil a pop.

More like 15-20 mil a pop, but still. I remember some selling for around 150 bil back in that day, and you could easily make a profit of 300 bil in a year from one. If they would have sold for 35 mil a piece, that would have been over 700 bil ISK per year from one.
Now, they still sell for up to 50 bil or thereabouts (the CRII BPOs), yet you can only make around 10 bil profit per year from one of them.

If that's not cutting off the "ISK printing" capabilities, I can't say what else is.



Well i was getting ripped off in doodixie then. I never went to jita back then either so that might be why i remember those prices.

Edit: haha ripped off. At those prifit margins that is pointless to say.

Ophelia Ursus
Posted - 2010.07.30 14:44:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: SFX Bladerunner
You think T2 bpo owners produce right off of the bpo? You think that a T2 BPO doesn't spend it's entire life in a copying lab?
Think again.

Shocked

Cashews
Bastelrunde EV
People in Lousy Ships
Posted - 2010.07.30 14:50:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: SFX Bladerunner
edit: @ Cashews:
Ever heard of a little thing called 'blueprint copying' ?
You think T2 bpo owners produce right off of the bpo? You think that a T2 BPO doesn't spend it's entire life in a copying lab?
Think again.


Well then, tell me how long creating a 10-run-copy off your BPO takes.
And it's irrelevant, since you can still only use one copy slot at a time.

Voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
Posted - 2010.07.30 14:58:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: SFX Bladerunner


edit: @ Cashews:
Ever heard of a little thing called 'blueprint copying' ?
You think T2 bpo owners produce right off of the bpo? You think that a T2 BPO doesn't spend it's entire life in a copying lab?
Think again.


This just proves exactly how knowledgeable you are in this subject. Next time do your freaking homework.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.07.30 15:02:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: SFX Bladerunner

Ever heard of a little thing called 'blueprint copying' ?
You think T2 bpo owners produce right off of the bpo? You think that a T2 BPO doesn't spend it's entire life in a copying lab?
Think again.


Base times

Hulk BPO

Manufacture time 1 Day 9 hours 20 minutes
Copy time (1 run BPC) about 4 days

Javelin S BPO

Manufacture time 5 Hours, 33 Minutes
Copt time (1 run BPC) about 12 hours

Do the math Rolling Eyes

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.07.30 15:26:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: SFX Bladerunner
You think T2 bpo owners produce right off of the bpo ?

Yes.
Reasons : what people above already said.

Voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
Posted - 2010.07.30 15:31:00 - [104]
 

Edited by: Voogru on 30/07/2010 15:32:36
Originally by: Breaker77

Do the math Rolling Eyes


To be fair, this is something a lot of inventors can't do. They probably went through the government run public school system so even this might not be their fault.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.07.30 15:59:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: SFX Bladerunner
Edited by: SFX Bladerunner on 30/07/2010 14:40:36
The only reason anyone would want T2 BPO's removed from game is that they do not own them and/or cannot afford them.

/thread

Any other discussion is irrelevant.

edit: @ Cashews:
Ever heard of a little thing called 'blueprint copying' ?
You think T2 bpo owners produce right off of the bpo? You think that a T2 BPO doesn't spend it's entire life in a copying lab?
Think again.


I actually do make bpc's off one of my ammo bpos BUT i do that so friends can make some isk with me. Im fully capable of just manufacturing from it myself.

Dracnys
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.30 16:24:00 - [106]
 

Tech 2 BPOS have to be removed because they are against the very basic concept of EVE's economy: Every resource is available in infinite quantities.

Everything in EVE except some limited issue ships (which is their only point) can be produced infinitely. T2 BPOs can't. It is possible to have 1000 titans, but not 1000 Hulk BPOs. It is a thorn in EVEs economy and bypasses all rules, and thus, has to be removed from the game.

From an economic point they are meaningless, and gameplay wise they don't impact anyone too much. It is simply an old relic that doesn't fit into the philosophy and makes the game feel wrong for some people. My approach to remove them would be simple removal, and compensation in form of a lot of BPCs. And I'm speaking of several years worth of BPCs. The amount doesn't really matter as long as it doesn't crash the invention market too hard (which would be worse than the keeping the T2 BPOs). The current owners don't have to feel cheated, they get a fair compensation but the little error is finally removed, and the bad feelings are gone.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.07.30 16:35:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Dracnys
Tech 2 BPOS have to be removed because they are against the very basic concept of EVE's economy: Every resource is available in infinite quantities.

Everything in EVE except some limited issue ships (which is their only point) can be produced infinitely. T2 BPOs can't.



T1 BPOS are NPC sold, so tell me where I can buy an Anaconda mine BPO?

Oh wait, you get get them anymore, the only way is to buy it from someone who already owns it.

Your reasoning has been been shot down many times before. It's an invalid reason to remove T2 BPOs. It doesn't matter that mines are useless items, if you have a BPO you can still build them and sell them.


Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.07.30 16:54:00 - [108]
 

Edited by: Jovialmadness on 30/07/2010 16:55:52
Originally by: Dracnys
Tech 2 BPOS have to be removed because they are against the very basic concept of EVE's economy: Every resource is available in infinite quantities.

Everything in EVE except some limited issue ships (which is their only point) can be produced infinitely. T2 BPOs can't. It is possible to have 1000 titans, but not 1000 Hulk BPOs. It is a thorn in EVEs economy and bypasses all rules, and thus, has to be removed from the game.

From an economic point they are meaningless, and gameplay wise they don't impact anyone too much. It is simply an old relic that doesn't fit into the philosophy and makes the game feel wrong for some people. My approach to remove them would be simple removal, and compensation in form of a lot of BPCs. And I'm speaking of several years worth of BPCs. The amount doesn't really matter as long as it doesn't crash the invention market too hard (which would be worse than the keeping the T2 BPOs). The current owners don't have to feel cheated, they get a fair compensation but the little error is finally removed, and the bad feelings are gone.



Thats actually not bad bro.

Unfortunately i have to trump you. Adressing them in terms of just the economy that is true they are unique.

*Sigh*...buuuut...Tech 2 bpo's must stay because they stand for what makes eve what eve is as a whole. Oh and they can be purchased so they do see a type of market activity.


You did mention the ships but they are just as vital. For example. I want them removed(not really) because they cannot be gotten anymore. They serve no function in realistic combat due to their value. Yet people want them and ccp continues to keep them in game.

Why not remove the last state apoc from the game? (correct me if im wrong i think their is one left). How is one guy quiting going to hurt ccp after they remove it?

Why would ccp let one ship stay in the game? Why would ccp let prints stay in the game? Partially, in my opinion, because of a potential financial backlash but mainly because this is the effing way they want the game.

Dracnys
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.30 18:08:00 - [109]
 

But unlike the limited issue ships the T2 BPOs were not initially intended as collector items. They were a mistake which was corrected with Invention but some relics remained which have to be cleaned up. You might say that limited items have a reason to be there, and I agree. Because they were never intended to be anything else than collector items.

So all in all we're talking about something meaningless as we already concluded that T2 BPOs aren't important for the economy and gameplay. I stick with my opinion that they shouldn't be there, but the argument that they're an example for what makes EVE is also valid. I see the beauty of an imperfect game, but I prefer a perfect one. Its a matter of taste and whether you want to show the games past mistakes or not.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.07.30 18:27:00 - [110]
 

Edited by: Jovialmadness on 30/07/2010 18:30:00
Originally by: Dracnys
But unlike the limited issue ships the T2 BPOs were not initially intended as collector items. They were a mistake which was corrected with Invention but some relics remained which have to be cleaned up. You might say that limited items have a reason to be there, and I agree. Because they were never intended to be anything else than collector items.

So all in all we're talking about something meaningless as we already concluded that T2 BPOs aren't important for the economy and gameplay. I stick with my opinion that they shouldn't be there, but the argument that they're an example for what makes EVE is also valid. I see the beauty of an imperfect game, but I prefer a perfect one. Its a matter of taste and whether you want to show the games past mistakes or not.



I actually like this discussion. You make good points.

1. The lottery itself was stupid i agree. The premise behind lotteries though is that a unique prize will be won by a select few and/or one and be entered by masses. So in my opinion its possible ccp planned on them being collectable. Never heard them say either way but everything about the bpos points that way.

2. T2 bpos do infact help control the market.

A.) noninvented items get stocked. When the bpo holders get a bit crazy the inventors see it, swoop in and stabilize the item cost ilbeit slowly as they need time to invent and make the product.

B.). Without bpo holders keeping a check on items its possible for prices to be jacked for longer durations. For example. There are no longer tech 2 command ship bpos. Well historically tech 2 print holders hover just below the price set by inventors and make their profits. If only a select group of inventors are making ships it might take longer for other inventors to switch over and add stock to drive those prices down. Bpo holders can swoop in and immediately begin quick and carefree undercutting (something inventors might shy away from). This would drive the price down due to instant stock infusion.

I equate this to a market manipulator who jacked the price of say tech 2 large reppers to 10x their normal sale price and everyone and their brother showing up with stock to quickly infuse product, gobbling up buy orders and driving the sale price back down.

Im no akita t but it makes sense to me.

Edit: id like to emphasize that i do believe a market system with just invention is possible. Definately. I just feel bpos and invention have a nice symbiotic relationship.

Dracnys
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.30 19:23:00 - [111]
 

Interesting point. I never really saw it that way, as a healthy relationship.

So let's be a bit constructive, why shouldn't it be possible to acquire new T2 BPOs? They are always direct competitors with the invention system which is much more complex and vital for many activities in EVE.

The player base is growing and thus their influence is declining. So new ones have to be released in order to maintain their market power. This should be closely regulated so that invention doesn't become obsolete and everyone just saves up until he can buy a T2 BPO. Their market impact has to remain small, more of a helper for price finding. Furthermore the imperfection would be eliminated that way. What I fear would be a complete stop of invention if too many T2 BPOs are seeded, and the invention system fails along with datacores, exploration and T1 blueprint copying.

Finally T2 BPOs would serve as a smooth price helper to avoid cartels. Might be an option to look on, but I'm not fully convinced of it. Too high risk of invention crash, which would be sad as invention is a superior system.




Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.07.30 19:45:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Dracnys
Interesting point. I never really saw it that way, as a healthy relationship.

So let's be a bit constructive, why shouldn't it be possible to acquire new T2 BPOs? They are always direct competitors with the invention system which is much more complex and vital for many activities in EVE.

The player base is growing and thus their influence is declining. So new ones have to be released in order to maintain their market power. This should be closely regulated so that invention doesn't become obsolete and everyone just saves up until he can buy a T2 BPO. Their market impact has to remain small, more of a helper for price finding. Furthermore the imperfection would be eliminated that way. What I fear would be a complete stop of invention if too many T2 BPOs are seeded, and the invention system fails along with datacores, exploration and T1 blueprint copying.

Finally T2 BPOs would serve as a smooth price helper to avoid cartels. Might be an option to look on, but I'm not fully convinced of it. Too high risk of invention crash, which would be sad as invention is a superior system.






Yea its simply how you look at it. As far as ccp adding more bpo's i havent the foggiest clue how they would do it.

Mainly because..

1. How could they do it and not hurt the asset investments i worked hard for( selfish but my main concern)

2. How could they do it and not cause an issue with over supply. OR like you said make invention obsolete.

3. How could they do it in a way everyone would have a chance to get it? The way guys are today, a new lottery would probably end with players jumping in planes and showing up at ccp hq's with pitch forks and torches.

Honestly my concern is mostly selfish and its the retention of the bpo's in game. I worked hard to get them and any of the options ever mentioned from turning them into bpc's with long runs or just simple reimbursement probably will end up costing me isk.

Adding bpos would be pretty bad too. Check this out.

You have a mothership. They are resistant to ecm. Ccp announces they wont be 3 days before the patch. 300 guys spam the sell orders forum trying to offload their moms but its futile. They bought them for 16 bil but all the guys showing up keep posting "ill give you 5 take it or leave it. They are getting nerfed afterall".

If word even leaked out about T2 bpos getting put back ingame. A mass exodus of holders would try to offload their prints and get the best price they could. Hell some dip****s pulled off a good propoganda move about 6 months ago and did just that. Quite a few went up for sale during that time. I nabbed me some since i saw through their bull****.

Vherkin
Amarr
War Cake
Posted - 2010.07.30 19:57:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: Vherkin on 30/07/2010 20:39:23
Edited by: Vherkin on 30/07/2010 19:59:04
Edited by: Vherkin on 30/07/2010 19:58:42
I don't have any bpo t2, im a producer and im near 3 years old. My playtime is not to blame either, i play alot. Im just to lazy to make enough isk to buy them. Im even proud of it you know, it's a game and if i have fun being lazy, wasting my thing doing useless thing like crashing in a sun, i can Very Happy

Quote:
It's create an have/have not:

So? that how eve work!
For exemple. It's unfair that older player have alot more of SP, sure we could buy one, but more and more new player come, how will i be able to buy 6-7 year old caracter ? They are so rare and most of them are inactive! That ****ing unfair. I want all older caracter deleted! Rolling Eyes

Quote:
It's cut invention profit!
FALSE
Actually, invention cut invention profit!
The only difference is t2 bpo can go lower than invention and still be profitable. They don't need to cut the price more, they just have to wait for inventor to stupidly kill themself with competition.

Yeah you sucker, you actually destroyed yourself most of t2 invention profitability. The t2 bpo owner would be happy to return back and have the same price than before. But they can't, you will alway lower the price! Rolling Eyes

Quote:
It's make people angry, jealous and sad!

Cry some more?

Quote:
It's totally safe!, that unfair!

Like most of the production, research and invention. The only thing dangerous is moving stuff around really. You can even do nifty BPC to take no risk with pos... I have a idea, remove all possibility to research, create, or copy anything in high-sec and possibly in any npc station. That way it's gonna be fair and risky for everyone.Laughing

Yeah, i assure you i have no bpo t2. Im just **** off to hear the same escuse again and again. How it is fair to have other people who worked hard for their stuff deleted because you can't have it ?!

Ho i know: But it's not fair for me!

Agent Unknown
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.30 20:38:00 - [114]
 

I'll sum up the concept of opportunity cost:

Would you rather have a considerable lump sum NOW or work for it? As far as I know, it would take YEARS of constant manufacturing on most BPOs to even come close to their current selling cost. Remember, you only have one blueprint to manufacture from; inventors have as many as they can invent (and get from said invention). Because of this, you can produce far more from invention than a single BPO ever could.

Don't even get started on copying T2 BPOs either...from the looks of it it'll take months of research for a single max run BPC.

ZeeOhSix
Blackwater Manufacturing and Logistics
Posted - 2010.07.30 21:13:00 - [115]
 

I'm sorry; I'm simply too busy making healthy ISK from inventing T2 modules - ones where T2 BPOs exist - to respond to this thread.

Carry on.

Nahkep Narmelion
Gallente
CALIMA COLLABORATIVE
Atrox Urbanis Respublique Abundatia
Posted - 2010.07.30 22:22:00 - [116]
 

Jesus f***ing Christ the tard is strong in this thread.

I've already pointed out that T2 BPO's have one benefit, keeping markets active where the profit margin is thin. Invention provides a competitive fringe to T2 BPOs thus keeping prices in check. As, demand for t2 items grow over time the impact of T2 BPOs will continue to decline. The complaints about T2 BPOs is like a 5 year complaining they are too short relative to adults....and considering that most of the people doing the complaining reason like 5 year olds....

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.07.30 22:35:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Dracnys
Tech 2 BPOS have to be removed because they are against the very basic concept of EVE's economy: Every resource is available in infinite quantities.

So tell me, where exactly can I find those unoccupied Technetium/Neodymium/Dysprosium/Promethium moons ? Or where do I find the source of State Issue Ravens ? Hey, can you point me to the place that spawns Estamel's Invul fields when I push a button ?

Quote:
Everything in EVE except some limited issue ships (which is their only point) can be produced infinitely. T2 BPOs can't. It is possible to have 1000 titans, but not 1000 Hulk BPOs. It is a thorn in EVEs economy and bypasses all rules, and thus, has to be removed from the game.

T2 BPOs are not the end, but the MEANS to the end, the end being T2 items themselves.
And IT IS POSSIBLE to produce Hulks forever, via invention.
In fact, 90% of them are produced that way.
T2 BPOs are not radically different from unique ships, discontinued BPOs or any other number of limited-availability things. Sure, they are the most BENEFICIAL of those things, and the least risky to use, but those are the only real difference.

Quote:
From an economic point they are meaningless, and gameplay wise they don't impact anyone too much.

From an economic standpoint, they provide CHEAP-AS-DIRT T2 products in areas where inventors would never have had a chance to participate even if the T2 BPOs would have not existed.
They are also tools to allow really, really, REALLY rich people to let more of their money "work" at decreased percentage returns BUT for far less effort, which in turn means OTHER high-rolling sections of the economy are not being encroached by the uber-rich just because they still offer a worse ISK/effort ratio compared to T2 BPOs (as long as those are still in the game).
So, gameplay-wise, they offer a relatively secure investment option with low return and low required effort, the equivalent of a low-yield recurring bank deposit with tricky withdrawal of deposit options.

Quote:
It is simply an old relic that doesn't fit into the philosophy and makes the game feel wrong for some people.

So what ? Those people would have never made good inventors anyway (look at the number of inventors IN FAVOR of leaving T2 BPOs alone), and they would actually be among the first to be negatively affected from a removal of T2 BPOs anyway, so they don't really know what's best for them. In other words, people complaining about T2 BPOs have no idea what the consequences of their removal would be.

Quote:
My approach to remove them would be simple removal, and compensation in form of a lot of BPCs. And I'm speaking of several years worth of BPCs. The amount doesn't really matter as long as it doesn't crash the invention market too hard (which would be worse than the keeping the T2 BPOs). The current owners don't have to feel cheated, they get a fair compensation but the little error is finally removed, and the bad feelings are gone.

You're joking, right ? No, wait, you were being serious, because you can't comprehend what that means.
Several year's worth of BPCs suddendly appearing instead of BPOs WILL kill invention profitability for as long as it takes all those BPCs to be consumed and all corresponding items traded. Heck, even HALF A YEAR'S WORTH of BPCs will have almost the same effect, but it would last less overall.

And back to the previous bank deposit analogy... yeah, sure, tell me again just how much NOT cheated YOU personally would feel if the bank where you deposited 100,000.00 USD with the promise of 5% returns per year (AND the ability to get all your money back at any time you want) would all of a sudden tell you that they will NEVER return your 100k deposit, but you will be able to enjoy a 5% interest on them for the next 20 years or so (for a grand total of 100k received), after which the bank will promptly tell you to go frak yourself because you're now even.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.07.30 22:51:00 - [118]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 30/07/2010 23:01:07
Originally by: Jovialmadness
2. T2 bpos do infact help control the market.
A.) noninvented items get stocked. When the bpo holders get a bit crazy the inventors see it, swoop in and stabilize the item cost ilbeit slowly as they need time to invent and make the product.
B.). Without bpo holders keeping a check on items its possible for prices to be jacked for longer durations. For example. There are no longer tech 2 command ship bpos. Well historically tech 2 print holders hover just below the price set by inventors and make their profits. If only a select group of inventors are making ships it might take longer for other inventors to switch over and add stock to drive those prices down. Bpo holders can swoop in and immediately begin quick and carefree undercutting (something inventors might shy away from). This would drive the price down due to instant stock infusion.

Not really.
It works exactly the other way around.
The only markets "controlled by T2 BPOs" are those markets where inventors would never make a profit in the first place, and where even those BPO holders barely make any ISK at all themselves.

If ANY T2 BPO holders would EVER again try to jack up prices for an item that is nowadays profitable to invent (or, worse, for those NOT yet profitable to invent), heck, even if one person would actually own ALL of the T2 BPOs for a certain item type to form a monopoly which would have been devastating pre-invention, you know what would happen ?
(assuming of course some T2 BPO holder would actually be stupid enough to try to do any of that... and god forbid if a group of inventors has the "bright" idea to try it...)
The price MIGHT spike... for all of a couple of days.
Then it would crash down HARD as soon as inventor products start flocking in.
Still, it won't crash below BPO build cost, because in that case people would buy them off to reprocess... so the guy attempting to jack prices can't even really make a decent profit out of the crash itself either.

It's not T2 BPOs that offer any sort of market control, it's exactly the other way around.
Inventors automatically and naturally top-cap the possible price level of T2 items to a bit over invention break-even on a regular basis.
T2 BPO owners would have to be pretty stupid to sell for LESS than inventors sell, so, at least as far as the actual market is concerned (as long as real market demand really does outstrip T2 BPO supply).
In fact, in such markets, inventors and T2 BPO owners alike actually do compete on an even footing !!!
If a T2 BPO owner goes below invention breakeven, all the inventor has to do is BUY OUT THE T2 BPO HOLDER'S STOCK and sell it as his own (and therefore obtain the goods at slightly less than what he could have made it for himself).


Originally by: Jovialmadness
I equate this to a market manipulator who jacked the price of say tech 2 large reppers to 10x their normal sale price and everyone and their brother showing up with stock to quickly infuse product, gobbling up buy orders and driving the sale price back down.

That part is correct Smile
But you DO know how fast that would happen, don't you ?
Yup, the one jacking up prices that way in just about any market hub will end up LOSING money overall, and losing it fast.
There would be next to no way to recover his investments from such a (doomed to failure) manipulation attempt.

The "correct" manipulation way of such items would work like this : jack up prices by strategically forcing OTHERS to jack up THEIR buy orders, then wait for the wave of cheaply-produced products to arrive quashing existing high buy orders, driving prices down, and you buy your stuff at the LOWEST point, then you wait for the market to re-stabilize, THEN you sell your product at roughly the same price it used to cost before.
Trying it any other way will almost certaily result in losses instead of gains.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.07.30 23:54:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Akita T

Still, it won't crash below BPO build cost, because in that case people would buy them off to reprocess...



You are aware that only applies to ships?

With T2 modules you get some crappy T1 minerals and a couple of units of morphite. The other components are gone for good.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.07.31 00:11:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 31/07/2010 00:11:51
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Akita T
Still, it won't crash below BPO build cost, because in that case people would buy them off to reprocess...

You are aware that only applies to ships?
With T2 modules you get some crappy T1 minerals and a couple of units of morphite. The other components are gone for good.

Yes, but for modules, the invent/manufacture cycle is extremely short, only ships take long enough to even try to pull something like that off.
P.S. Not that it would work anyway Wink


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