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blankseplocked To people that want to remove T2 BPOs : give a GOOD reason why
 
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Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2010.07.29 19:02:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
2) This creates an elitest class system of haves and have-nots.


That's where your argument breaks down. There were 'haves' and 'have-nots' before there were ever any T2 BPOs. For the most part, the 'Haves' leveraged their assets to buy their BPOs from the 'have-nots', and used them further seperate themselves from your 'unwased masses'.

When the problems of production monopoly 1st started to really rear it's head and murmurs of invention came out, the smart ones sold their BPOs for huge sums to yet another investor that hoped to get a return through years of monopoly. When invention poped their bubble, many of them cut their losses & sold out.

I'd really love to see a list of BPO holders that got their BPO from the lottery and still activly play & produce today. I'm betting it's a short list. I'd also bet it's mostly a list of relatively unknown players.

Nobzy
Posted - 2010.07.29 19:04:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Nobzy on 29/07/2010 19:04:52

So wait, let me get this straight.

If I started eve last year, and through succesful and perilous earning I am now standing at 900 billion isk, and I spend it all on a hulk bpo, LHA says it's unfair and needs to be removed because not everyone bothers earning isk that much?

Please don't make me do funny faces.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.07.29 19:21:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Jovialmadness on 29/07/2010 19:23:20
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Jovialmadness
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 29/07/2010 18:34:18
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Mr LaForge
Yeah, I DEMAND MY STATE RAVEN NOW. Its simply unacceptable that I wasn't there for it and now have no chance to get one at all because those that have one will never sell it.


Unlike T2 BPOs, the rare ships can't be used with virtually no risk of loss.

Therefore, those situation will eventually "work themselves out". Either you own one that you never undock, giving you no advantage, or you use it and eventully lose it.

T2 BPOs can be used while left in an untouchable NPC station with no real risk of loss, and therefore, they will never "work themselves out".


Somebody back me by agreeing with what im going to say please cause he is wrong again.

Social engineering. You know scamming right? Just happens to be another thing ccp allows.

How many here have been around long enough to hear about epic thefts that were years in the making. Sure my bpos are locked down and sure i am the ceo but check this out.

Who is to say i couldnt be manipulated over years to trust in someone and get my bpos stolen? Better yet who is to say some bpo holders dont lock them down and could get manipulated? Who is to say that bpo holders may need to move their print and it gets popped in the process by suicide gankers. Who is to say a holder couldnt unlock his bpos for any number of reasons and a director nabs them.

Point is, NOTHING is 100% safe! Comparing the usefullness of an exotic item of one use to another isnt worth a damn. The ONLY thing you CAN deduce is that CCP does promote unique items and thats IT. That is what these guys are trying to tell you genius.

Most importantly the safety of an item totally is rubbish to ccp in terms of removal. CCP historically alters said item to bring it back in line NOT removes it so your statement has been summarily smash to ****.

Next




When I say loss, I mean, REMOVAL FROM THE GAME.

You know.... like when you lose a rare ship and it simply ceases to exist in the game.

If the scam removed the BPO from the game, then your argument would have some merit. It does not, so it does not.

The scam simply transfers the elite status and special advantage from one player to another and does not remove the inequitable nature or the elitest class structure.





Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I got ya. Well then i had no idear that ships and prints were to be treated the same like that!!! My bad dude.

I mean wtf was i thinking. Ships can be shot at in space because well....they are ships. Ill just petition ccp to allow me to strap an engine and some guns on my blueprints so i can magic carpet ride my ass all over the universe and get shot at too!!!! They have to be destroyable!! They just have to!!!!

Umega
Solis Mensa
Posted - 2010.07.29 19:32:00 - [64]
 

You know..

It ain't fair that some players have been around longer and have better success rates at inventing than a lower, younger SP person. Their ability to do more is just not fair.. now is it?

We should make it so the newer inventors have the same advantages of older inventors.

Everyone should have the same success rate and access to varies abilities, because damn.. it just ain't fair that older players have some sort of 'elitist' advantage over the newer, younger, startup players to the craft.

Damn, why not just give every player the ability and same success right off the bat. Cause it really ain't fair otherwise. God damn, why should people have to earn anything.. we should be flying every ship and pooping out T2 BPOs of our own right outta the box. Otherwise.. it ain't fair and creates 'elitist' people, and that's bad. Very very bad.

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2010.07.29 19:55:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 29/07/2010 19:58:32
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Yes, you can pay an insanly high price for a T2 BPO and spend half-a-decade or more trying to earn back that money. That is not the same as a new player knowing that with focus and dedication they have a reasonible (key word REASONIBLE) chance to eventually be able to compete with an older player on a level playing field.


Level playing field? Hell, as someone that never bought a BPO, I think sometimes I have the advantage!

1st and foremost, I don't have 10s of billions invested to recoup before I see a profit from my work.
I don't need to fear that the T2 widget I make will fall out of favor 4 years from now.
If I don't feel like manufacturing this week, I don't have to work toward that ROI.
I can make whatever is most profitable today on all 10 lines. When the most profitable thing changes tomorrow, and it will, so will I.
If I want to close shop & sell out of my business, I just stop buying materials, and I'm out. No need to find someone to take take my BPO off my hands, no worry about selling it at a loss.

Against my advantages, a BPO holder has a fraction of my wasteage & no invention costs. As long as I do my homework before I manufacture something, choose what to produce based on that, & set my prices appropriate to my costs, I'm not working at a disadvantage to anyone that bought a BPO.

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2010.07.29 20:06:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Umega
You know..

It ain't fair that some players have been around longer and have better success rates at inventing than a lower, younger SP person. Their ability to do more is just not fair.. now is it?

We should make it so the newer inventors have the same advantages of older inventors.

Everyone should have the same success rate and access to varies abilities, because damn.. it just ain't fair that older players have some sort of 'elitist' advantage over the newer, younger, startup players to the craft.

Damn, why not just give every player the ability and same success right off the bat. Cause it really ain't fair otherwise. God damn, why should people have to earn anything.. we should be flying every ship and pooping out T2 BPOs of our own right outta the box. Otherwise.. it ain't fair and creates 'elitist' people, and that's bad. Very very bad.


[continuing the sarcasm]
... and while were leveling the whole playing field, I don't think it's fair that I'm no good with Stealth Bombers since I've only put 27k SPs in missiles... Waahhh, no fair!!! Crying or Very sad
[/sarcasm]

Aurum Bellator
Posted - 2010.07.29 21:22:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
T2 BPOs need to be removed from the game for the same reason that lottery needed to be removed.

1) They provide too large of an advantage, to too few players with the vast majority of players never having a reasonible oppertunity to participate. Removing the lottery removed new imbalances from occuring, however, levaing the existing T2 BPOs behind simply locked in the existing imbalances.


I had to stop reading this thread when I got to this guy's post. I can't stand the "it's not fair because I never had a chance!" argument. Reminds me of the loathesome characters in a book called Atlas Shrugged.

The only reason to remove tech 2 BPOs from the game would be, that they gave a vastly undeserved reward. The only time this reason would have been valid is where the BPO was still in the hands of the original owner. Since so much time has passed, it seems to me there is absolutely no reason to remove them from the game. The market has set their value.

That doesn't mean there can't be balancing changes to tweak the dynamic between BPO production and invention. For example, removing the ability to manufacture directly from the BPO and instead requiring it to be copied into BPCs would be one change I think would be acceptable. Making invented BPCs a 'random' ME/PE factor would be another.

That is only if you believe there is an unfair advantage. I don't know one way or another, because I don't manufacture. I will say, however, that doing business with a BPO owner is different experience than doing business with an inventor.

There are enough ways to work with the current system with minor tweaks that the argument to remove them should be dead.

AUB

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.07.29 23:03:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Aurum Bellator
I had to stop reading this thread when I got to this guy's post. I can't stand the "it's not fair because I never had a chance!" argument. Reminds me of the loathesome characters in a book called Atlas Shrugged.




The villans of Atlas Shrugged wanted things to be given to them while the heros wanted the oppertunity to receive just compensation from the products of their labor. The heroes wanted a level playing field, and to be able to win.

No one is asking that everyone be given a full set of T2 BPOs. I'm asking that either 1) T2 BPOs be removed or 2) newer players be given the reasonible oppertunity to gain one through a reasonible game mechanic.

I don't want the out put of the T2 BPOs to be confiscated and given to me. I want the T2 BPO to cease to exist.

Here is an ISK, go buy a clue.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.07.29 23:27:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Aurum Bellator
I had to stop reading this thread when I got to this guy's post. I can't stand the "it's not fair because I never had a chance!" argument. Reminds me of the loathesome characters in a book called Atlas Shrugged.




The villans of Atlas Shrugged wanted things to be given to them while the heros wanted the oppertunity to receive just compensation from the products of their labor. The heroes wanted a level playing field, and to be able to win.

No one is asking that everyone be given a full set of T2 BPOs. I'm asking that either 1) T2 BPOs be removed or 2) newer players be given the reasonible oppertunity to gain one through a reasonible game mechanic.

I don't want the out put of the T2 BPOs to be confiscated and given to me. I want the T2 BPO to cease to exist.

Here is an ISK, go buy a clue.



You might want to hold on to that isk bro. Seriously. Wink

captain foivos
Posted - 2010.07.29 23:33:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
The villans of Atlas Shrugged wanted things to be given to them while the heros wanted the oppertunity to receive just compensation from the products of their labor. The heroes wanted a level playing field, and to be able to win.



Let me whip out my 37-page report on this book.

Ah, relevant section: Henry Rearden and Rearden metal.
T2 ships: vastly superior to T1 variants.
Rearden metal: vastly superior to regular steel.

Henry Rearden was the only man who could produce Rearden metal (at first), because he spent ten years researching metallurgy to get it.
Bob was one of six capsuleers who could produce T2 Arkonor crystals from a BPO, because he spent months making hordes of RP-generating alts and received a BPO from the lottery.

The government stole Rearden metal and didn't pay anything for it.
Bob turned around and sold his BPO to Charlie for twenty billion ISK. Charlie had played EVE for three months but, IRL, was a very rich person, and so he sold a large number of plex to generate his wads of cash.
Charlie then turned around and sold the BPO to David, who started out mining veldspar in his Ibis years ago. David still had his second Bantam (since someone came along and randomly ganked his first one five minutes after he got it) and treasured it as a memento to the hard work that led to his success. David worked his spreadsheets and figured that owning the BPO would be worthwhile after about eight years. Jimmy was neither rich nor smart, and when he saw David flying around in his faction-pimped State Raven, cruising past Jimmy's armor-tanked drake, Jimmy got mad and demanded CCP hit David senseless with the nerfbat.


Also: there is no way to "win" EVE.

Umega
Solis Mensa
Posted - 2010.07.29 23:40:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Aurum Bellator
I had to stop reading this thread when I got to this guy's post. I can't stand the "it's not fair because I never had a chance!" argument. Reminds me of the loathesome characters in a book called Atlas Shrugged.




The villans of Atlas Shrugged wanted things to be given to them while the heros wanted the oppertunity to receive just compensation from the products of their labor. The heroes wanted a level playing field, and to be able to win.

No one is asking that everyone be given a full set of T2 BPOs. I'm asking that either 1) T2 BPOs be removed or 2) newer players be given the reasonible oppertunity to gain one through a reasonible game mechanic.

I don't want the out put of the T2 BPOs to be confiscated and given to me. I want the T2 BPO to cease to exist.

Here is an ISK, go buy a clue.


Heres two isk.. now quit avoiding some of the solid points and questions directed your way in this thread that utterly knock your premise to the floor. Provide some actual concrete evidence to support your claims. I'm serious.. actually make a valid arguement about how unfair it is that an item is literally avialable to be obtainable by any player in the game.. if they have earned enough isk to aquire it for themselves.

People's faults and failures are their own. Why should others end up losing out on what they want just because others can't achieve? Isn't that just a bit more unfair than claiming new players emo-rage quit simply cause T2 BPOs exist, that it is unfair because of POTENTIALLY higher profit margins? I bet a smart inventor can generate better margins, ontop of the better net, than a moron at the helm of a T2 BPO.

So by your absurd, crazy 'logic'.. isn't it unfair that the inventor can switch mod/ship, make more per month, not have billions tied down into one, destroyable item that may decrease in value at any given patch? (helloooo dirt cheap meta+ prop mods)

I get it now.. what you really want is for CCP to somehow nerf brilliance and intelligence, because morons, idiots, dumb ass ****s can't compete with those kind of people. Ahhhh I get it now.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.07.30 00:29:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Umega

now quit avoiding some of the solid points and questions directed your way in this thread that utterly knock your premise to the floor.


Don't feel bad. Everytime someone makes valid points he completely ignores them. As far as Mr LHA Dumb**** can see, he is right and every other person in EVE is wrong.

Do a search on eve search and you will see several threads from him about T2 BPOs and 99% of them were locked.

He is nothing but an attention ***** and I wouldn't even wish him to go back to WoW as he is even to ******ed for that game.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.07.30 00:58:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
T2 BPOs need to be removed from the game for the same reason that lottery needed to be removed.

Really ? Is purchasing a T2 BPO a roulette spin ? If I keep donating some money to random people I get a chance to get a T2 BPO ?

Quote:
1) They provide too large of an advantage, to too few players with the vast majority of players never having a reasonible oppertunity to participate. Removing the lottery removed new imbalances from occuring, however, levaing the existing T2 BPOs behind simply locked in the existing imbalances.

Already answered in the OP. Your reasoning is invalid. You used a combo of invalid arguments #2 and #3.

T2 BPOs DO NOT provide "TOO LARGE" of an advantage, they just provide some mild financial advantage (costs-wise) and a convenience advantage (no need for constant clicking).

Quote:
2) A new player should know that, given enough time and focus (and alt accounts), they will eventually be able to compete with anyone on a level playing field. T2 BPOs are the one area of Eve where this is not true.

Again, tackled in the OP. Your argument is invalid. You used a modified version of invalid argument #6 disguised to look like #3.

Inventors WERE NEVER SUPPOSED to compete on an even field with T2 BPO owners, they are at a mild disadvantage by design, T2 BPO owners always get first pick, and then, IF DEMAND IS HIGHER THAN THEY CAN FILL AND ONLY THEN, that's where inventors get to compete.
And wow, what a coincidence, competition between inventors _IS_ on a level playing field. That doesn't stop them from screwing eachother even for items where no T2 BPOs exist.

Quote:
3) Thier existance creates a "have and have not", "elete few and the vast unwashed masses" situation. The hate and discontent among newer players due to this caste system is harmful to the geme. Yes, removing them will create anger among the existing owners, but that is just a matter of proper conpensation for the existing holders. There is no "acceptable compensation" that can be given to every new player to remove the hate and discontent of never having a reasonible oppertunity to be one of the "elite few".

Again, it's in the OP. It's invalid silly reason #7.

In the words of CCP : HTFU.

Quote:
4) When invention was created, it had to suck so as to maintain the value of the T2 BPOs to the existing owners. -4 ME? 1 run BPCs? The fixes that need to be done to invention would devistate the value of T2 BPOs(passing ME and number of runs through invention), so they can not be done until after the T2 BPOs have been removed and the current owners compensated.

What a miracle, yet again, tackled in the OP. It's the direct form of invalid argument #6.

Who says invention was created to provide a level playing field in the manufacture business ? MAYBE YOU, BECAUSE CCP SURE DIDN'T EVER SAY IT. From the very start, they stressed out the intention of introducing invention was to break off the highly profitable T2 manufacture cartels and allow access (at a certain higher-than-BPO-cost price) to all T2 items to all people.
Yes, you could argue "why did they introduce new T2 items without introducing T2 BPOs for them" to claim that this is not the case, but it's not what you think, just a "so how the hell are we supposed to put any T2 BPOs for these things in without having people go all hissy-fit on us ? Beats me, let's not release any, and just keep whistling".

Quote:
lottery was a LAME mechanic that gave too much reward to too few. It created a caste system of the elite few haves that get to play Eve in easy mode and the vast majority of everyone else that will never have. The hate and discontent that lottery created is bad for the game, and leaving the T2 BPOs behind simply locked in that unacceptable situation.

I see you are STILL conveniently ignoring the fact the vast majority of T2 BPOs are in the hands of people that PURCHASED THEM WITH ISK !!!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.07.30 01:06:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 30/07/2010 01:35:53

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Akita T
[...about a system to create new T2 BPOs without capping their number...]Yup, they'll whine they can't invent ANYTHING for a profit anymore, and they'd sadly be right about it Laughing
It's only a matter of time in case something like that happens.

Show me one time where ANY of my arguements have been based on lack of profitability of invention.

Show me one time where you reasonably argue that the resulting situation would be better overall for the game.

Quote:
My arguments are based on
1) The rarity and fixed nature compared to the large and growing player base means that the vast majority of players can never gain reasonible access to one.
2) This creates an elitest class system of haves and have-nots.
3) This class system, created by a lame mechanic that handed out too large of an advantage to too few players creates hate and discontent among the majority of those that don't have this special advantage.
4) Because the T2 BPOs can easily be used with little to no risk of loss, the inequity created by the lottery will never "work itself out" the way limited edition ships does.
5) When invention was created, it had to be done in a way that maintained the high value of T2 BPOs. As a result, the invention mechanic mostly sucks with neither ME or licensed runs being passed through. The lameness of T2 invention can't be fixed wihout greatly reducing the value of T2 BPOs.

1) Irrelevant. Nobody NEEDS a T2 BPO to get T2 items. T2 BPOs themselves are a perk, not a necessity. They are convenience tools. And the vast majority of people that have them HAVE PAID THE PRICE for having them.
2) We like having elitist classes in EVE. Too bad T2 BPO ownership is not elitist at all. Oh, if only I could just buy a random item and call myself "elite"... well, I wouldn't, but you seem to think some people would.
3) Those players that got T2 BPOs from the lottery have mostly cashed out since. Very few T2 BPOs remain in the hands of people that "spawned" them into the game. How do you reconcile that ?
4) Using some T1 BPOs and some capital BPOs offers HIGHER PERCENTAGE PROFITS than most T2 BPOs, and even the best T2 BPO out there is beaten at times by some T1/cap BPOs. Those other items are freely available. How exactly is that an unfair advantage for T2 BPOs again ?
5) Invention was not created for the purpose you seem to think it was created. Of course, it doesn't help when CCP does confusing things like release new T2 items without releasing any T2 BPOs, but what else could they do ?

Quote:
Therefore, to begin to work off the great inequity created by the lottery, to remove the class system of a few elite and a majority of never-gonna-haves, to begin to heal the hate and discontent, and to allow invention to be improved, T2 BPOs must be removed.

Hogwash.

Giving people 5 years worth of BPCs instead of a BPO is not fair either - at the end of 5 years, the current BPO owners could have sold their BPO for roughly the same (if not higher) price than what they paid for it, ON TOP of "breaking even" on the initial investment.
Fair compensation for current T2 BPO owners in form of spawned ISK would throw the system into the chaos of heavy inflation.
T2 BPOs cannot be "fairly" removed without major problems of some kind.

Also, you can always improve invention at any time, without compensating T2 BPO owners in any way, shape or form.
Tell me, how exactly were T2 BPO owners compensated when invention was introduced, making T2 BPO value plummet ?
THEY WEREN'T, that's the correct answer.
You can always improve invention without removing T2 BPOs, but that STILL wouldn't solve much (if anything).
Yeah, you might get a few less morons complaining about how T2 BPOs are still "unfair" (even if they aren't), but that's about it. Almost nobody else is noticeably happier.

HTFU, this is a game of hyper-capitalism AND THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WE LOVE IT !

Sjugar
Posted - 2010.07.30 01:46:00 - [75]
 

Fair or not fair are bad arguments.

Eve is about a free and open market. T2BPO production is cheaper then T2 invention prodution. In this way T2 BPO's corner the market.

Take for instance T1 production: everyone can get the skills and the person getting his minerals cheapest and being the most efficient "wins".

Not so much in the T2 market. The T2 market is divided in 2 parts: the percentage that the T2BPO holders can supply and that's what's left for the inventors. In markets where the T2BPO holder don't cover 100% the price will always crawl to what invention costs. T2BPO holders do not have to be efficient or competitive, they can be the opposite and still run a succesful business, that's very much against the spirit of EVE.

So, do I think T2 BPO's need to go? No, because there's also another thing. A thing called "concept of ownership". For people to have faith in a systems and have markets thrive it's important that things just don't get taken away by some "act of god". Eve needs this too. If you take out T2 BPOs, it will impact the entire system.

But, investing is also about risk. It started with T1 modules, then the T2 modules came, so a good investor should see it coming that there will at some time possibly be T3 modules. Which influence their investment.

And that's what would be natural and a way for CCP to correct this horrible way of making T2 modules in 2 different ways: the introduction of T3 modules.

Nahkep Narmelion
Gallente
CALIMA COLLABORATIVE
Atrox Urbanis Respublique Abundatia
Posted - 2010.07.30 03:00:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Nahkep Narmelion on 30/07/2010 03:28:31

Quote:
T2 BPOs are detrimental because they create jealousy/envy/whatever....


Really, grow up please.

Quote:

The really good ones, Hulk BPO springs to mind, rarely change hands and then for prices that are enormous. The original winner of said BPO got a huge advantage over the others.


This is a great point. The true advantage is not going to the current holders, unless they got a really good BPO and have yet to sell it. The first people who got the, realized their value, and sold them for enormous amounts of isk got the initial advantage.

Think about this, even if it hurts most of you, suppose I'm going to give you an asset that will pay you $1,000,000/year each and every year for 100 years.

Are you going to sell it for

A)$1 million,
B)$1 billion,
C)the present value sum of $100 million?

If you answer A or B, Hello Kitty Online is that way ----->

If you answered C, congratulations you pass.

Quote:
1) They provide too large of an advantage, to too few players with the vast majority of players never having a reasonible oppertunity to participate. Removing the lottery removed new imbalances from occuring, however, levaing the existing T2 BPOs behind simply locked in the existing imbalances.


Ahhh enter LHA Tarwa with his wonderful assuming that which must be proven. LHA, the point, in case you missed it, is to explain the above statement. Provide support, a cogent argument, something. Not just a bald faced assertion.

You'd be right about shutting down the lottery and T2 BPOs if CCP didn't add invention, which minimizes the impact of T2 BPOs, in fact, I'd say it negates their negative effects entirely. The influence of T2 BPOs is pretty much dead since invention renders price fixing damn near impossible.

Quote:
The villans of Atlas Shrugged wanted things to be given to them while the heros wanted the oppertunity to receive just compensation from the products of their labor. The heroes wanted a level playing field, and to be able to win.

No one is asking that everyone be given a full set of T2 BPOs.


No, instead you are asking to have less competition....which means you are rent seeking--i.e. trying to gather unearned economic profits...which is precisely what the poster was talking about.

Try again.

Quote:
The government stole Rearden metal and didn't pay anything for it.
Bob turned around and sold his BPO to Charlie for twenty billion ISK. Charlie had played EVE for three months but, IRL, was a very rich person, and so he sold a large number of plex to generate his wads of cash.
Charlie then turned around and sold the BPO to David, who started out mining veldspar in his Ibis years ago. David still had his second Bantam (since someone came along and randomly ganked his first one five minutes after he got it) and treasured it as a memento to the hard work that led to his success. David worked his spreadsheets and figured that owning the BPO would be worthwhile after about eight years. Jimmy was neither rich nor smart, and when he saw David flying around in his faction-pimped State Raven, cruising past Jimmy's armor-tanked drake, Jimmy got mad and demanded CCP hit David senseless with the nerfbat.


Capt. Foivos,

If we ever get walking in stations, I'm buying you a drink....Hell make it a case of your favorite drink.

Mella Elcus
Posted - 2010.07.30 04:03:00 - [77]
 

Solution: Make npc's sell T2 bpo's for 100B each. Now everyone can earn their way into the upper class of the industrial society in Eve.

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.07.30 08:01:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Akita T

I CHALLENGE YOU TO :
A) FIND A GOOD REASON WHY T2 BPOs MUST BE REMOVED
B) DETERMINE A FAIR SYSTEM FOR THEIR REMOVAL
C) ARGUE WHY THE RESULTING SITUATION WOULD BE BETTER OVERALL THAN THE CURRENT ONE.




It's a license to print isk, completely removing the invention process, thus saving you the (click) pain, grief and hassles that goes into doing inventions. You can manufacture almost afk. There are plenty of options to go about streamlining the manufacturing process, but it's pretty irrelevant given that there's nothing unique about it. The main general premise of this argument is that you make (guaranteed) isk with little effort in the industrial context.

How do you get T2 BPOs? By investing either isk (for those that bought T2 BPOs) or time (for those that had gotten it through lotteries). The problem with ROI is that it doesn't treat the amount invested as a capital asset, which will either depreciate/hold/appreciate in resell value depending on game CCP changes. I'd say most of the times, it'll hold or appreciate in value. A possible depreciation example is the case of T2 MWD recently where CCP made Y-T8 MWD rain from the sky.

Fixing the system will require a fair assessment of these T2 BPOs' value, based on the current market prices. The metrics to use should tie profits and the avg isk spent on T2 BPO purchases. Most of the T2 BPO holders are industrialist and traders, and many would have similar metrics to evaluate its value. That said, I seriously doubt CCP would want to fix this, from the non-interference standpoint (if its not anything critical) and also from powerful pro T2 BPO lobbies (a bit like RL).

To address point C), end result if CCP removes T2 BPOs? No more effortless isk printing press.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.07.30 08:09:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 30/07/2010 08:14:19
Originally by: Sturmwolke
It's a license to print isk

The BEST type of T2 BPO you can get (a Hulk BPO, that is) will yield only a bit over 2 bil ISK/month at current material/ship prices.
At the same time, a T1 battleship BPO can yield more than half a bil ISK/month, even at current mineral ship/prices.

The profitability numbers fall down quite rapidly for other T2 BPO types, and the vast majority of T2 BPO types don't even remotely come close to the above numbers, yet they still trade for a lot more than a battleship BPO.
Heck, a lot of T2 BPOs barely break even with T1 AMMO BPOs as far as profitability goes.

How exactly is any of that a "license to print ISK" ?

MiaAmorea
Posted - 2010.07.30 08:11:00 - [80]
 

WTS 2 Hulk BPOs...

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.07.30 08:15:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: MiaAmorea
WTS 2 Hulk BPOs...

I'll give you 30 bil for both combined, do we have a deal ? Twisted Evil

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.07.30 08:23:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Akita T
The BEST type of T2 BPO you can get (a Hulk BPO, that is) will yield only around 2 bil ISK/month tops at current material/ship prices.
At the same time, a T1 battleship BPO can yield more than half a bil ISK/month, even at current mineral ship/prices.

The profitability numbers fall down quite rapidly for other T2 BPO types, and the vast majority of T2 BPO types don't even remotely come close to the above numbers, yet they still trade for a lot more than a battleship BPO.
Heck, a lot of T2 BPOs barely break even with T1 AMMO BPOs as far as profitability goes.

How exactly is any of that a "license to print ISK" ?



You're mixing T1 and T2 production lines to establish a profitability point. That itself has problems - one which is fairly obvious. Understand the context of my previous post to see where "license to print ISK" is coming from. The gist are :

* little effort (bypassing invention)
* guaranteed profits (however big or small)

Voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
Posted - 2010.07.30 08:44:00 - [83]
 

Not this again.

T2 BPO's will go away naturally when the owners of them quit, or gets banned because its a fairly common cycle for people to find an exploit, buy up t2 bpos with illegal profits, then get banned for said exploit, eliminating their bought BPO's from the pool.

This is really just the have-nots going against the haves, it's simple jealously and a complete misunderstanding of the market. I didn't have T2 BPO's either, I saved ISK and I bought my T2 BPO's after sweet talking the owners out of them dangling billions of ISK in their faces.

The primary reason for removing the T2 BPO's is the illusion that it will increase the profit margin of invention, it won't, because many inventards (as I call them), sell their wares at LOSS and have to keep buying PLEX's to even stay in business. If you want invention to be profitable you need to add more risk to invention, and make inventing POS only, or even low-sec POS only if you want to go to the extreme.

People say that there is no risk in owning T2 BPO's, while there isn't as much risk owning a T2 BPO, that risk was offloaded to saving the required 10 to 100 billion ISK to buy the BPO, the less risk they took, the longer it took them to earn that ISK.

I would support making all T2 production pos only (BPO's can stay in stations though, the cost production runs on T2 BPO's are usually in the billions and are enough risk), and invention low-sec pos only. The profit margins for everybody would rise, inventors could go to war with entities that own T2 BPO's and blow up their POS's, inventors can hire mercs to go blow up other low-sec inventors, and the T2 BPO owners can repay the favor.

Resulting in more stuff getting blown up which benefits all production profiteers.

Instead, we have station camping 100% safe production, so of course it's going to drive profits down because pretty much every product made ends up on the market, there isn't much of an opportunity for a competitor to intercept it.


Fumitsugu Sylwia
Posted - 2010.07.30 08:46:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Sturmwolke

You're mixing T1 and T2 production lines to establish a profitability point. That itself has problems - one which is fairly obvious. Understand the context of my previous post to see where "license to print ISK" is coming from. The gist are :

* little effort (bypassing invention)
* guaranteed profits (however big or small)



I would argue that there are many common T1 BPOs around that fit that description, and could be described as "licences to print ISK". What's more, they are not in limited circulation, and will not cost you your arm, leg and a reasonable chunk of your liver to gain their ownership.

Cuppa Coffee
Posted - 2010.07.30 08:49:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Voogru
Not this again.

T2 BPO's will go away naturally when the owners of them quit, or gets banned because its a fairly common cycle for people to find an exploit, buy up t2 bpos with illegal profits, then get banned for said exploit, eliminating their bought BPO's from the pool.

This is really just the have-nots going against the haves, it's simple jealously and a complete misunderstanding of the market. I didn't have T2 BPO's either, I saved ISK and I bought my T2 BPO's after sweet talking the owners out of them dangling billions of ISK in their faces.

The primary reason for removing the T2 BPO's is the illusion that it will increase the profit margin of invention, it won't, because many inventards (as I call them), sell their wares at LOSS and have to keep buying PLEX's to even stay in business. If you want invention to be profitable you need to add more risk to invention, and make inventing POS only, or even low-sec POS only if you want to go to the extreme.

People say that there is no risk in owning T2 BPO's, while there isn't as much risk owning a T2 BPO, that risk was offloaded to saving the required 10 to 100 billion ISK to buy the BPO, the less risk they took, the longer it took them to earn that ISK.

I would support making all T2 production pos only (BPO's can stay in stations though, the cost production runs on T2 BPO's are usually in the billions and are enough risk), and invention low-sec pos only. The profit margins for everybody would rise, inventors could go to war with entities that own T2 BPO's and blow up their POS's, inventors can hire mercs to go blow up other low-sec inventors, and the T2 BPO owners can repay the favor.

Resulting in more stuff getting blown up which benefits all production profiteers.

Instead, we have station camping 100% safe production, so of course it's going to drive profits down because pretty much every product made ends up on the market, there isn't much of an opportunity for a competitor to intercept it.




The issue I have with this is that it would increase significantly the capital necessary to begin as an inventor.

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.07.30 08:55:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Fumitsugu Sylwia
I would argue that there are many common T1 BPOs around that fit that description, and could be described as "licences to print ISK". What's more, they are not in limited circulation, and will not cost you your arm, leg and a reasonable chunk of your liver to gain their ownership.


In which case I would argue your point is out of context.
You're missing the core argument based on a snippet of a sentence.

BP Buyer
Posted - 2010.07.30 08:59:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Sturmwolke
* little effort (bypassing invention)
* guaranteed profits (however big or small)

One of my T2 BPOs has a profit margin of about 90M (!) per month. It lies dormant in my hangar, because I make more money with producing T1 modules on this lane.

You wanna have it? You'll have 'guaranteed profits' (however big or small)

Voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
Posted - 2010.07.30 09:04:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Cuppa Coffee
The issue I have with this is that it would increase significantly the capital necessary to begin as an inventor.


But it won't be as high as a T2 BPO would be, and the higher profit margins would make up for it much quicker. Newbies would still have T1 production to get a foothold of how the market works and can eventually advance into POS production. T2 being POS only also gives even more of a reason for POS's to exist in high sec in low sec, increasing the demand for the POS fuels and commodities, boosting the needs of PI.

Everybody wins, but everybody is also exposed to more risk, but when they win, they win more.

I want to add, that "LHA Tarawa" is most likely a real world socialist or communist.

Newsflash LHA Tarawa, this game is the official game of Unregulated, Ruthless, Capitalism.

I will be playing this game far longer than you ever will. I will play EVE until the servers go down forever, as long as CCP doesn't give into your socialist demands.

If they do give into your socialist demands, you will still eventually quit the game because you will be bored. Socialist Utopia's are not exactly very much fun.

If you want a Utopia, go play second life.

Ophelia Ursus
Posted - 2010.07.30 09:05:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Voogru
The primary reason for removing the T2 BPO's is the illusion that it will increase the profit margin of invention, it won't, because many inventards (as I call them), sell their wares at LOSS and have to keep buying PLEX's to even stay in business. If you want invention to be profitable you need to add more risk to invention, and make inventing POS only, or even low-sec POS only if you want to go to the extreme.



Just FYI, most everything you said there is wrong. First, invention is perfectly profitable as is if you're capable of doing a bit of research to identify products worth making. Second, you already need a POS or the ability to move freely in low/nullsec if you're going to maintain an adequate supply of BPCs - making invention POS only wouldn't have any noticeable impact on T2 production.

Voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
Posted - 2010.07.30 09:18:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Voogru on 30/07/2010 09:19:22
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
Originally by: Voogru
The primary reason for removing the T2 BPO's is the illusion that it will increase the profit margin of invention, it won't, because many inventards (as I call them), sell their wares at LOSS and have to keep buying PLEX's to even stay in business. If you want invention to be profitable you need to add more risk to invention, and make inventing POS only, or even low-sec POS only if you want to go to the extreme.



Just FYI, most everything you said there is wrong. First, invention is perfectly profitable as is if you're capable of doing a bit of research to identify products worth making. Second, you already need a POS or the ability to move freely in low/nullsec if you're going to maintain an adequate supply of BPCs - making invention POS only wouldn't have any noticeable impact on T2 production.


First, you're assuming most inventors do their homework, most don't. My evidence? These everlasting threads with inventors whining about profit margins. I agree with you that invention CAN be profitable, but it requires the player to do their homework and research, and most don't. They tend to invent modules that they are in love with and want to make babies with, rather than what's profitable.

Second, I'm willing to bet you there are more invention jobs being done in the safety of stations than in low sec POS's. Making invention low-sec POS only would be a huge change.


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