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blankseplocked To people that want to remove T2 BPOs : give a GOOD reason why
 
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scoutsacoutanus
Posted - 2010.07.29 14:19:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: scoutsacoutanus on 29/07/2010 14:20:02
Edited by: scoutsacoutanus on 29/07/2010 14:19:39
Akita T we get it, you have t2 bpos. You don't have to keep making these posts trying to explain how you don't have an advantage over us peasant inventors.

Simple fix for T2 bpos: CCP announce t2 bpos will be destroyed 1 year from announcement. This will give plenty of chance for t2 bpo holder to redeem their purchase price and in the end will level the playing field.

Kalas Khanid
Posted - 2010.07.29 14:36:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: scoutsacoutanus

1 year


Have you checked ROI on those things? 1 year is nothing.

Sophia Truthspeaker
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2010.07.29 14:41:00 - [33]
 

The problem isn't about the profitability of the T2 BPO but the rather limited chance to get a good one.

Quite a few T2 BPOs are worth less than the paper they are written on. Anyone ever fitted a 50mm plate T2?

The really good ones, Hulk BPO springs to mind, rarely change hands and then for prices that are enormous. The original winner of said BPO got a huge advantage over the others.

That advantage can't be undone. And it should not be tried.

But if you really want to change anything T2 BPO... what about removing the uniqueness? How about a tiny, tiny chance to actually create a T2 BPO with invention instead of a BPC? Perhaps very slightly modified by an encryptor (datacore? never done invention, never will) that would create BPCs that are inferior to those created by the other encryptors.
Value of those extremly profitable BPOs would fall, new players have a chance to aquire a T2 BPO and people could whine about something diffrent...

oh and CCP isn't tempted to actually remove T2 BPOs, which would be very bad, just in case I ever want to fit a 50mm T2 plate.

Widemouth Deepthroat
Posted - 2010.07.29 14:49:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Widemouth Deepthroat on 29/07/2010 14:49:53
I own a X-L shield booster and photon scattering field bpo. If they got nerfed I going to quit Eve so fast and sned an envelope full of my waste to CCP office you won't believe it. That is how strongly I and other T2 BPO holder feel about our well deserved advantage over the rest of you.

edit: how is well deserved? We had to train for about 2 week to get chance for lottery and grind some standings. I feel we deserving something for this effort not just a little tickle of isk called datacore.

Vasundhara
Posted - 2010.07.29 15:44:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Widemouth Deepthroat
Edited by: Widemouth Deepthroat on 29/07/2010 14:49:53
I own a X-L shield booster and photon scattering field bpo. If they got nerfed I going to quit Eve so fast and sned an envelope full of my waste to CCP office you won't believe it. That is how strongly I and other T2 BPO holder feel about our well deserved advantage over the rest of you.

edit: how is well deserved? We had to train for about 2 week to get chance for lottery and grind some standings. I feel we deserving something for this effort not just a little tickle of isk called datacore.


When I discovered how the research lottery worked I changed the corps I had been missioning with as a newb to start the standings grind with an R&D corp. I also dedicated time to training the relevant R&D skills so I'd be ready once I had the standings. I started gaining some RP and sat on it on the off chance I'd win the lottery. Turns out that they had just shut it off. It was kind of a let down to spend time preparing for something only to have the game mechanic change out from under me. To be clear, CCP doesn't owe me anything other than the ability to log on to their servers for the time I pay for but for me, issues like this make the game less fun to play.


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.07.29 15:50:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 29/07/2010 15:55:26
Originally by: scoutsacoutanus
Akita T we get it, you have t2 bpos.

Wrong right from the very start of your post.

Originally by: scoutsacoutanus
Simple fix for T2 bpos: CCP announce t2 bpos will be destroyed 1 year from announcement. This will give plenty of chance for t2 bpo holder to redeem their purchase price and in the end will level the playing field.

First off, valuable BPOs go for well over 3, maybe even over 5 year's worth of maximum potential profit, so 1 year would be completely laughable.
Second, where exactly (or from whom) would T2 BPO holders "redeem their purchase" anyway ? Who the bloody hell would buy it if they knew they'll be gone in a year ?

Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker
But if you really want to change anything T2 BPO... what about removing the uniqueness? How about a tiny, tiny chance to actually create a T2 BPO with invention instead of a BPC? Perhaps very slightly modified by an encryptor (datacore? never done invention, never will) that would create BPCs that are inferior to those created by the other encryptors.
Value of those extremly profitable BPOs would fall, new players have a chance to aquire a T2 BPO and people could whine about something diffrent...

Yup, they'll whine they can't invent ANYTHING for a profit anymore, and they'd sadly be right about it Laughing
It's only a matter of time in case something like that happens.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.07.29 15:59:00 - [37]
 

As i have said countless times i could give a rats ass about what the haters think. My job is to simply coming into these threads and inform them that there are two types of people in the world and in game as well.

1. Person who grinds to make money not thinking of the future. This category gets further broken down into good folks that still make ends meet and live their lives and others who stay broke and are envious. These last guys are the ones *****ing on the forums.

2. Group two think ahead, bust their butts working toward a goal and attempt achievements that can financially benefit them.

I started with nothing and spent 2 YEARS of play time getting the isk up to buy my first 25 billion isk bpo. In 4 years im worth hundreds of billions because i worked for it.


Now some dip **** is gonna come in here and tell me after 6 years of playing the game he wants my achievements erased?

If it happens i can gurantee merc contracts on a biblical scale against those who showed up in these threads whining.

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2010.07.29 16:06:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 29/07/2010 16:31:53
Originally by: Nobzy
Is there anyone who has ever beaten Akita T in an industrial argument?


[humor]
Debating against Akita on industrial & economic topics is like wrestling a pig.
The pig likes it, & you just get dirty. Wink
[/humor]

In all seriousness, I don't think there's any issue with T2 BPOs at this point. As the player base and market volumes grow, the impact of the BPOs on the market shrinks.

As for it being 'fair', the only players that gained an 'unfair' advantage are the ones that won a quality BPO and put it to work rather than selling it. Even that advantage is questionable compared to the potential windfall of selling it at some point over the years.

Inventors have the option to chase profits as the market changes, while BPO holders are stuck with the investments they've made. BPO holders also run the risk of having their asset loose value due to changes in game mechanics.

Case in point, some poor suckers were left holding T2 Rocket Launcher BPOs & Rage Rocket BPOs when rockets got slammed by the changes to missile mechanics. How many billions did their 'unfair' advantage cost them, and what's their ROI now? Meanwhile, the rocket scientists simply moved on to inventing other missile products.

In the interest of disclosure: I don't own a T2 BPO, have never actually seen one, and have no interest in buying one at multiple years ROI. Invention works well enough for me without the outrageous front end costs.
If one dropped out of the sky and landed in my lap, I would most likely sell it.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.07.29 17:16:00 - [39]
 

T2 BPOs need to be removed from the game for the same reason that lottery needed to be removed.

1) They provide too large of an advantage, to too few players with the vast majority of players never having a reasonible oppertunity to participate. Removing the lottery removed new imbalances from occuring, however, levaing the existing T2 BPOs behind simply locked in the existing imbalances.

We need the imbalances to "pass through the snake". We can't get them to pass through the snake if we keep feeding the snake.


2) A new player should know that, given enough time and focus (and alt accounts), they will eventually be able to compete with anyone on a level playing field. T2 BPOs are the one area of Eve where this is not true.


3) Thier existance creates a "have and have not", "elete few and the vast unwashed masses" situation. The hate and discontent among newer players due to this caste system is harmful to the geme. Yes, removing them will create anger among the existing owners, but that is just a matter of proper conpensation for the existing holders. There is no "acceptable compensation" that can be given to every new player to remove the hate and discontent of never having a reasonible oppertunity to be one of the "elite few".


4) When invention was created, it had to suck so as to maintain the value of the T2 BPOs to the existing owners. -4 ME? 1 run BPCs? The fixes that need to be done to invention would devistate the value of T2 BPOs(passing ME and number of runs through invention), so they can not be done until after the T2 BPOs have been removed and the current owners compensated.




In short, lottery was a LAME mechanic that gave too much reward to too few. It created a caste system of the elite few haves that get to play Eve in easy mode and the vast majority of everyone else that will never have. The hate and discontent that lottery created is bad for the game, and leaving the T2 BPOs behind simply locked in that unacceptable situation.

Everytime I bring this up there is another round of "not this again". No, not this again. THIS STILL!!!!!!

I assure you AND CCP, that the hate and discontent caused by T2 BPOs is not going to go away until after the T2 BPOs are removed; or perhaps some new mechanism is created that will allow newer players to eventually compete on a level playing field with the existing T2 BPO holders (such as allowing them to invent T2 BPOs).


rain9441
Big Head Want Dolly
Posted - 2010.07.29 17:23:00 - [40]
 

The only way to make people who don't have T2 BPO's happy is to raise the cost of T2 production using a T2 BPO (Add additional requirements) or reduce amount of supply a T2 BPO can put on the market (Which would give inventors a larger share of the market). Neither of which are acceptable by either party.


There is an alternative though. One that attempts to not change the current state of the game in terms of supply/demand/price, but rather simply adds opportunity for profits to T2 invention which is in some way related/linked to T2 BPO holders. Currently T2 BPO holders have complete power over invention. By establishing some power in the inventors hands, the situation will be 'more fair'.

1) Increase the production time requirements of the T2 BPO by 50%.
2) Reduce the time required to make BPC copies of the T2 BPO to 53.3% of the new production time (or 80% of the old production time).
3) Add a new required item for copying the T2 BPO which is invented or manufactured. Call it "T2 copy sheets". There can be many types of copy sheets. Diverse types for different T2 BPOs would follow the path Eve has seemed to love to take.

How this would work is as follows...

T2 BPO holders would now be able to make copies of a BPO at a slightly higher rate they could have built T2 product in the past. They then use those copies to create the T2 items or sell the copies for profit. Since the BPO is being copied at a slightly increased rate compared to the production rate right now, the actual T2 item supply from said BPO will remain almost unchanged (EG the market will see very little, if any, additional T2 items created via a BPO). And since production time is greater than the copy time, the incentive for BPO holders is to make copies rather than stick the BPO in a manufacturing slot.

The copies will now have a value associated with them, and that value will be (((NumberOfT2BPCRuns * MaterialCostPerRun + CostToCopy)/NumberOfT2BPCRuns) - (BestCase(NumberOfInventedBPCRuns * MaterialCostPerRun + CostToInvent)/NumberOfInventedBPCRuns)) * NumberOfT2BPCRuns.

Another way of looking at it is this; Copies would be valued at the difference between profits of invented BPCs and copied BPCs. CostToCopy and CostToInvent would include anything and everything you can label a cost to (Even time spent clicking).

Now take a look at "T2 copy sheets". These items will raise the price of copying a T2 BPO in such a way that will cause the T2 BPO holders anywhere between 1% and 50% more to manufacture a T2 product at the old rate. The reason it is capped at 50% is because if the cost of copying + manufacturing exceeds that of simply manufacturing using the original BPO, the T2 BPO holders will stop making copies and just stick the BPO in the manufacturing slot and call it a day. They lose 33% of their quantity which is the 50% added cost.

[continued]

Richard Christy
Posted - 2010.07.29 17:28:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Nobzy
I hereby challenge anyone to give me 7 reasons why this should not be a sticky.

Also, a question. Is there anyone who has ever beaten Akita T in an industrial argument?


She reminds me of Scott Depace.

rain9441
Big Head Want Dolly
Posted - 2010.07.29 17:29:00 - [42]
 

[continued from above]

So if it costs 100k ISK to create a T2 item from a BPO right now that sells for 200k ISK, the BPO holder is making 100k ISK per unit time. Since production time is up 50% now, they will make 33% less ISK per unit time or 66k ISK (if they don't make copies). If the price of copying a T2 BPO is 0, the BPO holder can make 120k ISK per unit time. They just have to make copies and manufacture the copies instead of the original. I've established that here that the net profits T2 BPO holders (with these changes in effect) is anywhere between 66% and 120% of the profits they are making right now.

Since T2 copy sheets will end up dictating the profit margin a T2 BPO holder will create, it is entirely up to the playerbase to decide the price. If T2 copy sheets flood the market and price drops to basically zero, then T2 BPO holders will make the same profits they do today. But if everyone's burning hatred towards T2 BPO holders shows its colors, the price of T2 copy sheets will remain high and cause T2 BPO holders to make less profits. They will make less profits because they are producing less goods, which in turn raises the price of T2 product enticing inventors to join the market.

I'm going to examine best case scenario using the same example as above.

T2 production using BPO now: 100k ISK per unit time.
T2 production using BPO with my changes: 66k ISK per unit time.
T2 copying using BPO now: pointless
T2 copying using BPO with my changes: 120k ISK per unit time - T2 copy sheet costs.

Assuming T2 copy sheet costs = 20k per unit time, BPO holders will make the same profits they do today.

Where do T2 copy sheets come from though? Byproduct of invention. You invent a minmatar battlecruiser you get some "Minmatar starship engineering invention notes" which are used to copy "Minmatar starship engineering blueprints". This establishes a link between T2 BPO manufacturing and Invention. Without invention, T2 BPO profits will suffer. Thus T2 BPOs are less useful without inventors joining the market. T2 BPO holders will have to consider this.

End result:
-T2 BPO holders make nearly the same ISK per unit time.
-T2 Inventors make more ISK by selling the notes to T2 BPO holders.
-Without T2 Inventors, T2 BPO holders cannot make copies and thus have reduced ISK income.
-T2 items created via BPO holders remains the roughly the same.
-T2 BPO holders can move BPCs and spread reduced cost T2 items to remote locations without having to transport the T2 BPO itself.
-Most importantly - T2 BPO profits are finally linked invention.


So to answer the initial questions:


A) FIND A GOOD REASON WHY T2 BPOs MUST BE REMOVED
B) DETERMINE A FAIR SYSTEM FOR THEIR REMOVAL

T2 BPOs should not be removed. Removal of T2 BPOs cannot be fair as it is in all ways a form of stealing from a player.

C) ARGUE WHY THE RESULTING SITUATION WOULD BE BETTER OVERALL THAN THE CURRENT ONE.

By making T2 BPO holders rely on invention occuring, it is more likely that invention will be profitable. Doing so while keeping the T2 BPO holders profits per unit time intact is manditory.


PS. I dont actually invent, I just enjoy thinking up solutions to possible problems. It's challenging to me, and it took me a long time to think this up.

TL;DR: Link T2 Profits to invention in such a way that T2 BPOs are at reduced usefulness without invention.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.07.29 17:32:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: rain9441
The only way to make people who don't have T2 BPO's happy is to raise the cost of T2 production


Wrong.

The way to make us happy is to either
1) remove the existing T2 BPOs (with compensation to the existing holders)

or

2) create a new mechanism by which everyone will have a reasonible chance of eventually competing on a level playing field. Whether that be a new lottery or some way to invent a T2 BPO.


The current "elite-few-haves and vast-majority-of-have-nots-and-can-never-gets" is simply unacceptable.

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2010.07.29 17:39:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 29/07/2010 17:43:22
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
1) They provide too large of an advantage, to too few players with the vast majority of players never having a reasonable opportunity to participate. Removing the lottery removed new imbalances from occurring, however, leaving the existing T2 BPOs behind simply locked in the existing imbalances.


This is only true with regard to the BPOs that were not sold. For any BPO that was sold, the buyer made a risk investment that is a wash to any advantage he now has.
In addition, any other player has the option to place a WTB ad for their own investment.

For the BPOs that were not sold, the owner did get a windfall gain from the lottery, but chose to risk long term profits over huge short term profits by holding the BPO.

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
2) A new player should know that, given enough time and focus (and alt accounts), they will eventually be able to compete with anyone on a level playing field. T2 BPOs are the one area of Eve where this is not true.

Again, this is only true in the case of players that won a BPO and never choose to sell it. Any player in the game has the same opportunity to buy a BPO as any player that bought one during the lottery; even more so since invention has eroded the asset value of the BPOs.

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
3) Their existence creates a "have and have not", "elite few and the vast unwashed masses" situation.


Once again, any player has the same opportunity to buy a BPO as any other player. In any MMO, there are players that "have" and those the do not. It usually comes down to drive & discipline. The players that accumulated enough cash to pay 20Bisk for a BPO during the lottery had it; the ones that can't seem to break 500Misk in today's game don't.

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
In short, lottery was a LAME mechanic that gave too much reward to too few.


Agreed, that's why it's gone. If you choose to penalize the players that won on the lottery while the lottery still existed, I don't know that I'd be able to offer any rational debate.

To come in years later and say that players that invested in BPOs need to be penalized for making their investment is as unfair, if not more so, than the fact that the lottery ever happened in the 1st place.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.07.29 17:47:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Breaker77 on 29/07/2010 17:47:36
Originally by: LHA Tarawa

2) A new player should know that, given enough time and focus (and alt accounts), they will eventually be able to compete with anyone on a level playing field. T2 BPOs are the one area of Eve where this is not true.



Bull****! Given enough time and focus you can compete and beat established veterans.

Can a T2 BPO owner make over a thousand T2 modules a day? NO

Now you are going to be saying "Well they can also invention with owning a BPO". Yes they can, but if T2 BPO owners are also doing invention then doesn't that say that T2 BPO's are pretty useless?? Leave them in the game, let idiots waste billions on buying them. I'll just keep right on doing my several hundred invention jobs a day and making a fortune.

Originally by: LHA Tarawa

The way to make us happy is to either
1) remove the existing T2 BPOs (with compensation to the existing holders)



The way to make the people that read the S&I forum happy is if you weren't allowed to post stupid **** over and over.

Mr LaForge
Posted - 2010.07.29 17:48:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa

The current "elite-few-haves and vast-majority-of-have-nots-and-can-never-gets" is simply unacceptable.


Yeah, I DEMAND MY STATE RAVEN NOW. Its simply unacceptable that I wasn't there for it and now have no chance to get one at all because those that have one will never sell it.

Seriously give it up. I run alot of invention slots and plenty of manufacturing slots and I'm doing just fine. For a while I was envious of those T2 BPO holders but I realized and with some helpful excel sheeting how stupid they really are. Seriously, 1 damn slot. Unless the person has like 10 of the same T2 BPO they won't be making nearly what I can produce in a week. I can churn out thousands of a product a week, but the T2 BPO holder, only a few hundred. If it were ships, I'd still out produce.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.07.29 18:03:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow

This is only true with regard to the BPOs that were not sold. For any BPO that was sold, the buyer made a risk investment that is a wash to any advantage he now has.
In addition, any other player has the option to place a WTB ad for their own investment.



This is the strongest argument as to why they should remain.

And to defeat it I have many counter arguments.

Invention can't be fixed because doing so would decrease the value of T2 BPOs. The rarity of T2 BPOs means not everyone can have a REASONIBLE chance of getting one. Transferring them to a new player does not remove the elitest nature creating a class system that breads hate and discontent among the unwashed masses.

The lottery created great inequity, and leaving the T2 BPOs behind when lottery was removed simply locked in that unacceptable inequity.


The argument that I can buy a T2 BPO is bunk. Since there are a fixed number of T2 BPOs and a growing number of players that would want them, simple supply and demand would dictate that the majority will never have a reasonible oppertunity to obtain one.


And, the main issue remains. Their existance creates a class system which, regardless of how long someone plays or how much they focus on it, they will never have a reasonible oppertunity* to compete on a level playing field.

* Again, reasonible oppertunity does not include the ability to purchase one since the supply is small and fixed while the demand is high and growing, therefore, it is impossible for the majority to reasonibly obtain one. A player would be forced to pay an unreasonibly high price (as shown by the current going rate of something like 5x the theroitical max possible annual profits.

captain foivos
Posted - 2010.07.29 18:08:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: captain foivos on 29/07/2010 18:10:08
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Titans need to be removed from the game for the same reason that lottery needed to be removed.

1) They provide too large of an advantage, to too few players with the vast majority of players never having a reasonible oppertunity to participate. Removing serious sovereignty warfare removed new imbalances from occuring, however, levaing the existing Titans behind simply locked in the existing imbalances.

We need the imbalances to "pass through the snake". We can't get them to pass through the snake if we keep feeding the snake.


2) A new player should know that, given enough time and focus (and alt accounts), they will eventually be able to compete with anyone on a level playing field. Titans are the one area of Eve where this is not true.


3) Thier existance creates a "have and have not", "elete few and the vast unwashed masses" situation. The hate and discontent among newer players due to this caste system is harmful to the geme. Yes, removing them will create anger among the existing owners, but that is just a matter of proper conpensation for the existing holders. There is no "acceptable compensation" that can be given to every new player to remove the hate and discontent of never having a reasonible oppertunity to be one of the "elite few".


In short, sovereignty was a LAME mechanic that gave too much reward to too few. It created a caste system of the elite few haves that get to play Eve in easy mode and the vast majority of everyone else that will never have. The hate and discontent that sovereignty created is bad for the game, and leaving the Titans behind simply locked in that unacceptable situation.

Everytime I bring this up there is another round of "not this again". No, not this again. THIS STILL!!!!!!

I assure you AND CCP, that the hate and discontent caused by Titans is not going to go away until after the Titans are removed; or perhaps some new mechanism is created that will allow newer players to eventually compete on a level playing field with the existing Titan pilots (such as allowing them to construct Titans in highsec).




Bawwwwwwwwwwww Rolling Eyes

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.07.29 18:10:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Mr LaForge
Yeah, I DEMAND MY STATE RAVEN NOW. Its simply unacceptable that I wasn't there for it and now have no chance to get one at all because those that have one will never sell it.


Unlike T2 BPOs, the rare ships can't be used with virtually no risk of loss.

Therefore, those situation will eventually "work themselves out". Either you own one that you never undock, giving you no advantage, or you use it and eventully lose it.

T2 BPOs can be used while left in an untouchable NPC station with no real risk of loss, and therefore, they will never "work themselves out".

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.07.29 18:18:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: captain foivos

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Titans need to be removed from the game for the same reason that lottery needed to be removed.



trollness


I created an EveMon trainign plan for an alt with no skills. Pulled up titan and added the needed skills to training plan.

WITHOUT remaps, attributs or what not, is spit out a plan that would allow me to fly a titan in 238 days.

Okay, able to fly is not the same as able to fly well. So add... what, 2 more years of dedicated training....

Materials for a Titan are easily availabe on the market. BPs are available. Assembly arraies are available...


How about you create a skill plan for how a new player can reasonibly get access to a T2 BPO?

captain foivos
Posted - 2010.07.29 18:24:00 - [51]
 

Step 1: Cut a hole in the box.
Step 1: Train salvaging to level 3.
Step 2: Salvage until you have enough initial capital to get going.
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Profit.
Step 5: Use that profit to buy a T2 BPO.
Step 6: Profit.

There, I gave you a nice big hint. Here's another: the way to "win" EVE is to find out what the ???? stands for. Rolling Eyes

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2010.07.29 18:28:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
T2 BPOs can be used while left in an untouchable NPC station with no real risk of loss


Tell that to the players that owned Rocket BPOs when rockets got smacked with the nerf bat. Or Sensor Damps after their nerf. How about the guys with 100MN BPOs now that Quad-Lifs are basicly free?

When your investments ROI is measured in years, your real risk isn't from other players, it's in the patch notes.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.07.29 18:28:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Yup, they'll whine they can't invent ANYTHING for a profit anymore, and they'd sadly be right about it Laughing
It's only a matter of time in case something like that happens.



Show me one time where ANY of my arguements have been based on lack of profitability of invention.

My arguments are based on
1) The rarity and fixed nature compared to the large and growing player base means that the vast majority of players can never gain reasonible access to one.
2) This creates an elitest class system of haves and have-nots.
3) This class system, created by a lame mechanic that handed out too large of an advantage to too few players creates hate and discontent among the majority of those that don't have this special advantage.
4) Because the T2 BPOs can easily be used with little to no risk of loss, the inequity created by the lottery will never "work itself out" the way limited edition ships does.
5) When invention was created, it had to be done in a way that maintained the high value of T2 BPOs. As a result, the invention mechanic mostly sucks with neither ME or licensed runs being passed through. The lameness of T2 invention can't be fixed wihout greatly reducing the value of T2 BPOs.


Therefore, to begin to work off the great inequity created by the lottery, to remove the class system of a few elite and a majority of never-gonna-haves, to begin to heal the hate and discontent, and to allow invention to be improved, T2 BPOs must be removed.

* Note that I never claimed invention is unprofitable, because it is, for the vast majority of items, reasonibly profitable. If it were not, people would stop doing it until it became more profitable.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2010.07.29 18:31:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Jovialmadness on 29/07/2010 18:34:18
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Mr LaForge
Yeah, I DEMAND MY STATE RAVEN NOW. Its simply unacceptable that I wasn't there for it and now have no chance to get one at all because those that have one will never sell it.


Unlike T2 BPOs, the rare ships can't be used with virtually no risk of loss.

Therefore, those situation will eventually "work themselves out". Either you own one that you never undock, giving you no advantage, or you use it and eventully lose it.

T2 BPOs can be used while left in an untouchable NPC station with no real risk of loss, and therefore, they will never "work themselves out".


Somebody back me by agreeing with what im going to say please cause he is wrong again.

Social engineering. You know scamming right? Just happens to be another thing ccp allows.

How many here have been around long enough to hear about epic thefts that were years in the making. Sure my bpos are locked down and sure i am the ceo but check this out.

Who is to say i couldnt be manipulated over years to trust in someone and get my bpos stolen? Better yet who is to say some bpo holders dont lock them down and could get manipulated? Who is to say that bpo holders may need to move their print and it gets popped in the process by suicide gankers. Who is to say a holder couldnt unlock his bpos for any number of reasons and a director nabs them.

Point is, NOTHING is 100% safe! Comparing the usefullness of an exotic item of one use to another isnt worth a damn. The ONLY thing you CAN deduce is that CCP does promote unique items and thats IT. That is what these guys are trying to tell you genius.

Most importantly the safety of an item totally is rubbish to ccp in terms of removal. CCP historically alters said item to bring it back in line NOT removes it so your statement has been summarily smash to ****.

Next


LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.07.29 18:39:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: captain foivos
Step 1: Cut a hole in the box.
Step 1: Train salvaging to level 3.
Step 2: Salvage until you have enough initial capital to get going.
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Profit.
Step 5: Use that profit to buy a T2 BPO.
Step 6: Profit.



Your plan (actually, dang close to how my industrial career advanced) breaks down when a large and growing player base all try to execute step 5. The rare and fixed number of T2 BPOs means that the majority of players will never have access to one.

This locks in an class system of elite few and "the low lifes".

Yes, you can pay an insanly high price for a T2 BPO and spend half-a-decade or more trying to earn back that money. That is not the same as a new player knowing that with focus and dedication they have a reasonible (key word REASONIBLE) chance to eventually be able to compete with an older player on a level playing field.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.07.29 18:41:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Pantload on 29/07/2010 18:47:46
Originally by: LHA Tarawa

2) This creates an elitest class system of haves and have-nots.
3) This class system, created by a lame mechanic that handed out too large of an advantage to too few players creates hate and discontent among the majority of those that don't have this special advantage.



What creates hate and discontent is people like you. There is no elitest class system. You have imagined it. It is very clear what this is all about. You don't have a T2 BPO so you feel like you should just ***** until nobody gets one.

Originally by: LHA Tarawa

This locks in an class system of elite few and "the low lifes".



Nice! You just told everyone who doesn't own a T2 BPO that they are a low life. Very cosmopolitan.


This is just another newb whine thread. Did you participate in the "Down with learning skills one yet"? That thread is full of whiny newbs like you who can't stand this game and want it changed to suit them and damn the consequences. You should fit right in.

We need Jasdemi or Xenuria or that Fenring broad. There's not nearly enough dumb **** going on in this thread yet.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.07.29 18:45:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Jovialmadness
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 29/07/2010 18:34:18
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Mr LaForge
Yeah, I DEMAND MY STATE RAVEN NOW. Its simply unacceptable that I wasn't there for it and now have no chance to get one at all because those that have one will never sell it.


Unlike T2 BPOs, the rare ships can't be used with virtually no risk of loss.

Therefore, those situation will eventually "work themselves out". Either you own one that you never undock, giving you no advantage, or you use it and eventully lose it.

T2 BPOs can be used while left in an untouchable NPC station with no real risk of loss, and therefore, they will never "work themselves out".


Somebody back me by agreeing with what im going to say please cause he is wrong again.

Social engineering. You know scamming right? Just happens to be another thing ccp allows.

How many here have been around long enough to hear about epic thefts that were years in the making. Sure my bpos are locked down and sure i am the ceo but check this out.

Who is to say i couldnt be manipulated over years to trust in someone and get my bpos stolen? Better yet who is to say some bpo holders dont lock them down and could get manipulated? Who is to say that bpo holders may need to move their print and it gets popped in the process by suicide gankers. Who is to say a holder couldnt unlock his bpos for any number of reasons and a director nabs them.

Point is, NOTHING is 100% safe! Comparing the usefullness of an exotic item of one use to another isnt worth a damn. The ONLY thing you CAN deduce is that CCP does promote unique items and thats IT. That is what these guys are trying to tell you genius.

Most importantly the safety of an item totally is rubbish to ccp in terms of removal. CCP historically alters said item to bring it back in line NOT removes it so your statement has been summarily smash to ****.

Next




When I say loss, I mean, REMOVAL FROM THE GAME.

You know.... like when you lose a rare ship and it simply ceases to exist in the game.

If the scam removed the BPO from the game, then your argument would have some merit. It does not, so it does not.

The scam simply transfers the elite status and special advantage from one player to another and does not remove the inequitable nature or the elitest class structure.

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2010.07.29 18:47:00 - [58]
 

My hate towards T2BPO is pretty much becuase i cant bloddy blown them up.


captain foivos
Posted - 2010.07.29 18:54:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Your plan (actually, dang close to how my industrial career advanced) breaks down when a large and growing player base all try to execute step 5. The rare and fixed number of T2 BPOs means that the majority of players will never have access to one.


Wrong. That simply means the price of a T2 BPO will advance towards the equilibrium point as determined by supply and demand. Supply is very low and demand is very high, therefore leading to high prices. It's a player's problem if he or she doesn't want to earn the ISK necessary to own a T2 BPO. Learn2Capitali$m.

Originally by: LHA Tarawa

This locks in an class system of elite few and "the low lifes".



lolwut

Originally by: LHA Tarawa

Yes, you can pay an insanly high price for a T2 BPO and spend half-a-decade or more trying to earn back that money. That is not the same as a new player knowing that with focus and dedication they have a reasonible (key word REASONIBLE) chance to eventually be able to compete with an older player on a level playing field.


EVE is not about equal results, only similar starting conditions. There would be no point to this game if everyone who just started had the same access as someone who has played since beta. I can give you a long-winded and extended version of what I just said, but that'd be a bit TL;DR. Unfortunately I have the sneaking suspicion I will have to anyways, and it still won't have any effect.

Also, you just admitted that your argument was invalid because people can buy T2 BPOs from other players. I bolded that part for you. YARRRR!! Sounds like someone is butthurt they're not super-rich.

Umega
Solis Mensa
Posted - 2010.07.29 19:02:00 - [60]
 

This isn't a game to test Socialistic vs Capitalistic Ideals, LHA.

It is a game for enjoyment purposes. To grow, establish, set goals, and to achieve. If everyone is given the same as everyone else, no matter length of devoted game time.. it'll get rather boring, rather quickly, and die. Think SWG. Didn't work their.. won't work here.

So by your logic.. Those who have carriers in lowsec and wh should be removed from the game, it is not far to those that do not have, can not build, can not fly such empowering vessels in those specific locations.. correct? This is the same exact principle you ***** about concerning T2 BPOs. So answer this very question and don't avoid it. Lets expose you're actual thought process to everyone here, once again.

Remember everyone.. according to LHA, everyone gets the same amount of bread and water and land space, no matter how hard you work now or have ever. Those things are irrelevent. Only thing that matters is equal, flat, fairness for all.


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