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Alerean
Posted - 2010.07.28 19:11:00 - [1]
 

Hi folks, I hope you can help me with a ship choice dilemma.

I've been missioning for quite some time in Caldari space using a Kronos, it provides a reasonably quick mission turnover time but reading the forums suggests that people have found it to be one of the least effective marauders avaliable. Recently, I aquired the skills to fly a Paladin (a ship which comes much more highly reccomended). People tell me its a better ship but Im dubious about the actual improvement it provides given the mixture of targets generally encountered.

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The above graph shows DPS performance from both the Kronos(red) and the Paladin(green) versus a mock-up "Guristas Usurper" battleship (sig and resistance values from EVEinfo), although in EFT the Paladin has vastly higher damage output, the common local resistances would appear to mitigate this advantage. Is this actually the case? Which ship would provide the best option for fast and efficient mission running?

tl;dr Paladin or Kronos for missions in Caldari space? Are tachs worth it even despite the unfavourable local resists? Every time I've spoken to people about the Pala they say its better but I can't figure out why.

Cheers for any advice!

SirRalph
Minmatar
U.K.R.A.I.N.E
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2010.07.28 19:25:00 - [2]
 

Paladin to Sansha/Bloodraider/Drones, Vargur to rest.

Golem if you got missile skills.

Kronos for reprocessing.

Mr LaForge
Posted - 2010.07.28 19:29:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Mr LaForge on 28/07/2010 19:29:27
Nightmare for any Sansha/Blood/Drone targets.

Machariel for anything else.

HeIIfire11
Posted - 2010.07.28 19:34:00 - [4]
 

I think the Kronos is great..put two tracking computers on there and youll take the frigs out faster than you can target them..I hardly use my drones.

Alerean
Posted - 2010.07.28 20:38:00 - [5]
 

Given the amount of training time involved the Golem and the Vargur they're basically not viable. Mach...maybe in the longterm.

Still doesn't really answer the main question though- overall which of the two ships would be better for use against the motley collection of things you shoot at while running missions for the caldari?

HeIIfire11
Posted - 2010.07.28 21:19:00 - [6]
 

my corpmate has the paladin..i fly the kronos.Overall..i come out on top in most missions there because i shoot kin/therm.Most missions in caldari space are against guristas which are weak to kin/therm.But i havent done all too much of the math.She does alot better against mercs and bloodraiders.

Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.07.28 23:36:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Alerean
I've been missioning for quite some time in Caldari space using a Kronos, it provides a reasonably quick mission turnover time but reading the forums suggests that people have found it to be one of the least effective marauders avaliable. Recently, I aquired the skills to fly a Paladin (a ship which comes much more highly reccomended)

tl;dr Paladin or Kronos for missions in Caldari space?

You answered your own question. Fly Both. Kronos will work against gurista and the odd Serp misson to retrieve silicate glass or Quafe/wine, paladin vs blood/sansha/drones. You will get the odd Angel Extravaganza, but the Kronos will work well enough against them with the kin damage. I fly a Mach armor tanked right now and a Vargur in about 2 weeks once shield skills are done, couldn't be happier unless I had actually considered flying a golem.

Astald Ohtar
AtlantiA French Corp
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2010.07.29 00:54:00 - [8]
 

switch to amarr space , there is a couple good high sec caldari l4 agents.

Richard Christy
Posted - 2010.07.29 00:59:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Mr LaForge
Edited by: Mr LaForge on 28/07/2010 19:29:27
Nightmare for any Sansha/Blood/Drone targets.

Machariel for anything else.


Rolling Eyes

Qui Shon
Posted - 2010.07.29 07:35:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Alerean
Still doesn't really answer the main question though- overall which of the two ships would be better for use against the motley collection of things you shoot at while running missions for the caldari?


It's also a matter of which region you're in. If you get lots of Guristas, the answer is without a doubt the Kronos. Never use lasers against Gurista, it is the single worst weapon & NPC combination in all of Eve for PvE.


Many turret boats have their section of rats they excel against, but if you really want a one size fits all ship, it is, as it has always been, the Raven class, i.e. Golem & CNR. No turret boat, not even the fotm/foty Mach/Varg can come anywhere near their performance vs ALL rats.

This message brought to you by someone who speedran missions in, among other things, the Nightmare, in Amarr space, BEFORE Amarr became cool, and before missionrunning in Amarr became popular. Minnie is the new cool now though, but I'll stick to my Amarr/Gallente/Caldari boats, even if I do have Minnie BS 5 as well.

Anddeh McNab
Cadre Assault Force
Posted - 2010.07.29 07:55:00 - [11]
 

If you can already fly a Kronos then either a Mach or Vargur would be pretty viable. Both are going to need Matari Battleship and Large Projectile Spec so get them training, you're also going to need some shield skills if you don't have them already.

Dr Nefarius
Posted - 2010.07.29 09:54:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: Alerean
Still doesn't really answer the main question though- overall which of the two ships would be better for use against the motley collection of things you shoot at while running missions for the caldari?


It's also a matter of which region you're in. If you get lots of Guristas, the answer is without a doubt the Kronos. Never use lasers against Gurista, it is the single worst weapon & NPC combination in all of Eve for PvE.



I'm not 100% on this, but isn't it worse using lasers on angel ship? Since lasers do therm as secondary damage, and guristas secondary weakness is thermal...?
With lasers and angels, you will do em/therm when their weakness is expl/kin.


Ottman
Amarr
LoneWolf Mining
Veni Vidi Vici Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.29 10:07:00 - [13]
 

i fly paladin, dont know how you end up with crappy dps, i have at least the same dps as a kronos on 30 km range with mega pulse 2's...
it depends how much skilling effort on one side and how much isk wise effort you put into the paladin setup. yes i maybe need my drones here and there, but not that often. and before some ppl say its too much investment into implants, faction armor reps and i dont need marauder on level 5, let see it from that side, i had only to invest my sp and isk once and will get permanent performance from that for no further costs, any other marauder has still ammo costs and depending on the mission running speed you want the costs are higher or lower, the time for doing ammo freight logistics is not included or the time penalty for relaoding the ammo also not.
in close range my paladin has above 700 dps, and when you fly marauder on that level its not really important anymore how much resistance the npc has.

MfG Ottman

Qui Shon
Posted - 2010.07.29 13:38:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Qui Shon on 29/07/2010 13:41:04
Originally by: Dr Nefarius
I'm not 100% on this, but isn't it worse using lasers on angel ship? Since lasers do therm as secondary damage, and guristas secondary weakness is thermal...?
With lasers and angels, you will do em/therm when their weakness is expl/kin.


Yes, you're right.

So never use lasers on Angels and Gurista, they're the two worst weapon & npc combinations in all of Eve, Angels being even worse then Gurista.


Originally by: Ottman
in close range my paladin has above 700 dps, and when you fly marauder on that level its not really important anymore how much resistance the npc has.

MfG Ottman



Yes it is, even when you're pushing 1100-1200dps (1k+ gun dps) like my Nightmare was, it makes a big difference.

Ashira Twilight
Posted - 2010.07.29 17:40:00 - [15]
 

Sometimes I think I should fraps myself omgwtfpwnbbqing AE in my paladin...but then I remember I need to keep that quiet so they don't nerf my tachyons.

Star P'ergish
Posted - 2010.07.29 21:05:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: DerWish
Sorry to say it this bluntly, but this is bullocks.

Either you go Marauder with small investment in faction or you go faction ship with heavy deep-space fit... and you became a good high sec gank target.

All BS LVL V and all Large turret LVL V crew checking in.

I have flown all these ships with all kinds of setup. Maybe you deem me worthy throwing in my 2 ISK cents.

(i) Pulse Pala - it would be really good after all missions allow MWD, before that Tach is the way to go.
(ii) Golem - yeah, shining example of the lazy mission running or the extreme concentrated mission whoring. Are you counting the missile salvos you are sending? If not you are wasting ISK there. I hate T2 missiles, they gimp the ship too much for my liking.
(iii) Mach & NM - best in class PVE dmg if you have the ISK for the shiny stuff and you are not afraid of the suicide ganks.

My bottom line:
In high sec PVE LVL4 mission farming/whoring you can find good money in two ways, being a good Piņata or being clever. If you go Mach and NM you are Piņata, period. One day you will be cracked.

Doing it clever and like a true bitter vet:

There are 3 turret Marauders and only 1 missile one. If you go Golem you have to all way long and invest in the top torpedo implants, knowing you will never loose your high-sec-PVE-mission-*****-head, but you will have to change your fitt based on the mission you will get next.
I say one day you will **** up your fitt and only to realize it too late... and there goes your nice golem, killed in LVL4 mission... what a nice loss mail.

I change ships based on the next mission and never refit.
Get yourself together invest in T2 rigs and the best implants out there (dmg&tracking+2*cap) and you are not juicy bag of shiny officer & deep-space loot bag anymore... plus you don't need another char/acc to loot salvage or (dock, change ship, undock, warp, loot&salvage, warp, dock with your mission char).

I say use the right ship for the right mission.
Pala: Shansa &Blood & Amarr
Kronos: Gallente & Caldari & Serpentis & Gurista
Vargur: Angel & Matar & Drone
And look ma' I make bloody good money and the undock-point junkies scanning ships for targets leave me alone, because I'm not worth it.

Yeah, yeah Golem can change damage types. Nice, but I don't care, cause I also change my dmg type.

Okay, I know... you want a clear answer and you have read my rantings thus far. I started with Kronos, got my Pala and I wondered what the hack was I'm doing so far. My shiny new AC Vargur just visited Angelvaganza and came back victorious. OC

Salvage & loot BS they worth it.
Salvage only BC&Cruiser wrecks with loot, they are already close, right?
Loot small wrecks if you still shooting something or it's a E faction wreck.

Forget no-loot BS wrecks, you earn more money if you move on than the 1or 2 wrecks left behind.
Shoot the wreck the ninja salvager starts to salvage, and STFU in local.
Forget hate mails and only cry inside if you have to... and HTFU.
Ninjas leave your marauder alone 'cause they know they get less stuff from your **** you leave behind.


this

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2010.07.29 21:38:00 - [17]
 

The kronos isn't that bad against guristas from what I can see. I fly a paladin and after efting a very similar kronos setup, I got slightly higher turret dps at about the same range. This was 4x425mm rails with 3 damage mods vs 4x tachyons with 2 damage mods (tachs requires PDU II or implant). Both ships have the same drone bay so no difference there. If you do plug in the implant, then the paladin does slightly more damage with 3 heatsinks but slightly less with just 2. Either way the target's resistances are more important, the two are very close. I see no reason to swap to a paladin in caldari space.

The vargur is another issue. It's a pure falloff ship with a crazy tank. DPS at range is similar but it can pull it off with AC's rather than arty. So you will have better tracking. The selectable damage type is also very handy but you can't select kinetic. Against guristas you're probably still better off with the kronos. The vargur is nuts though, gotta love that thing.

Viva Che
Posted - 2010.07.29 22:11:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Star P'ergish
Originally by: DerWish
Sorry to say it this bluntly, but this is bullocks.

Either you go Marauder with small investment in faction or you go faction ship with heavy deep-space fit... and you became a good high sec gank target.

All BS LVL V and all Large turret LVL V crew checking in.

I have flown all these ships with all kinds of setup. Maybe you deem me worthy throwing in my 2 ISK cents.

(i) Pulse Pala - it would be really good after all missions allow MWD, before that Tach is the way to go.
(ii) Golem - yeah, shining example of the lazy mission running or the extreme concentrated mission whoring. Are you counting the missile salvos you are sending? If not you are wasting ISK there. I hate T2 missiles, they gimp the ship too much for my liking.
(iii) Mach & NM - best in class PVE dmg if you have the ISK for the shiny stuff and you are not afraid of the suicide ganks.

My bottom line:
In high sec PVE LVL4 mission farming/whoring you can find good money in two ways, being a good Piņata or being clever. If you go Mach and NM you are Piņata, period. One day you will be cracked.

Doing it clever and like a true bitter vet:

There are 3 turret Marauders and only 1 missile one. If you go Golem you have to all way long and invest in the top torpedo implants, knowing you will never loose your high-sec-PVE-mission-*****-head, but you will have to change your fitt based on the mission you will get next.
I say one day you will **** up your fitt and only to realize it too late... and there goes your nice golem, killed in LVL4 mission... what a nice loss mail.

I change ships based on the next mission and never refit.
Get yourself together invest in T2 rigs and the best implants out there (dmg&tracking+2*cap) and you are not juicy bag of shiny officer & deep-space loot bag anymore... plus you don't need another char/acc to loot salvage or (dock, change ship, undock, warp, loot&salvage, warp, dock with your mission char).

I say use the right ship for the right mission.
Pala: Shansa &Blood & Amarr
Kronos: Gallente & Caldari & Serpentis & Gurista
Vargur: Angel & Matar & Drone
And look ma' I make bloody good money and the undock-point junkies scanning ships for targets leave me alone, because I'm not worth it.

Yeah, yeah Golem can change damage types. Nice, but I don't care, cause I also change my dmg type.

Okay, I know... you want a clear answer and you have read my rantings thus far. I started with Kronos, got my Pala and I wondered what the hack was I'm doing so far. My shiny new AC Vargur just visited Angelvaganza and came back victorious. OC

Salvage & loot BS they worth it.
Salvage only BC&Cruiser wrecks with loot, they are already close, right?
Loot small wrecks if you still shooting something or it's a E faction wreck.

Forget no-loot BS wrecks, you earn more money if you move on than the 1or 2 wrecks left behind.
Shoot the wreck the ninja salvager starts to salvage, and STFU in local.
Forget hate mails and only cry inside if you have to... and HTFU.
Ninjas leave your marauder alone 'cause they know they get less stuff from your **** you leave behind.


this


This is the best advice in the thread. But if I had to interject with my own opinion: t3 ships do missions nearly as well and offer a lot more opportunites to make isk such as wh exploring, plexing, ratting, and working in more dangerous territory. I honestly can't think of a reason to skill for a marauder if you're even close to piloting a tengu instead.

Frozean
Posted - 2010.07.29 22:13:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Frozean on 29/07/2010 22:28:12
The only marauder i will only consider using, is the Golem. All other marauders, i can easily justify using a faction ship to blitz faster and earn more isk then the salvage you make by running missions slower.

This IS the case at least with paladin vs nightmare, there is no clear justification to use a pally and sweep the nightmare away, because their earnings are pretty darn close in any missions.

I never tried kronos yet. But golem is like, multitudes better then my paladin (torps vs tachys).

The golem has a 3-slot tank which can tank any faction by more then 500 dps tank (except sansha/blood raiders,400 tank or 500+ if i trade in an extra EM hardener)

With faction torps as my main ammo, it can 2-3 hit many half-million bounty battleships, and 3-4 hit many million-isk bounty battleships, while one hitting anything else non-elite (2 hit elise cruisers)

All this while still having an extra TP or two for my hammerheads (+120% tracking yummmm) and a nice perma run tank.

When i started to use golem, my macha toon started gathering dust insanely fast (now crosstraining amarr for the bhaalgorn). There is no <70km ship that can beat golem for mission tims,short-range brawling and isk/hour.

The only ship i can even consider using other then the golem, is CNR or nightmare (for its range superiority). And the Tengu (for its speed and anti-cruiser weaponry)

TLDR
Optimal combo (70<km missions) + (sniper missions)
Amarr space = (golem>pala/nm) + (nightmare>cnr/pala)
Caldari space = (golem) + (cnr/nightmare)
Minmatar space = (golem>machariel) + (cnr>>>>>nm)

GavinCapacitor
Posted - 2010.08.02 13:48:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: King Rothgar
4x tachyons with 2 damage mods (tachs requires PDU II or implant)


No they don't.


 

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