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Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.01 11:28:00 - [91]
 

Sadly overhauled means here removing half the features.

McRoll
Minmatar
Heatseekers
Posted - 2010.08.01 11:48:00 - [92]
 

For example?

If you mean removing features from the campaign, like choosing your missions, that doesn't really matter as SC2 has its focus on multiplayer games. The only feature missing there I recall is LAN support.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.01 11:59:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 01/08/2010 12:19:25
Edited by: Furb Killer on 01/08/2010 12:06:25
LAN support, playing against people from other regions, public chat channels, private channels, game browser where you can give games a name. Yeah that really improved alot...


And havent played that much yet, only my 7 hours, but is there even clan support?


Edit: Havent played SC1, i just know those things are in any semi-decent game and i know SC1 had them (dont think clan support, but that is also seperate paragraph for a reason). I dont know how ladders were done in SC1, but how they are done in SC2 is pretty bad imo. Just make one ladder to rule them all, and seperate ladders then for 1v1, 2v2, etc. Just something based on elorating or something similar.

Now we got something like bronze, silver, and a load more in different ladders. Which i assume is done so crappy players can also be high on a ladder. But it doesnt make it better. Then add that you only play in your region, so you can mulitply the amount of ladders again with a factor 10. Lets say around 4 ladders for different type of games (1v1, 2v2, etc), something like 5 ladders per type (bronze, silver, etc), and 10 regions, and we are at a total of 200 ladders. Yes that makes it better...

And then there is also the division stuff i dont even understand, but looks to be making even way more ladders.

oniplE
MeMento.
Posted - 2010.08.01 12:52:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
By looking at amazon reviews, where i btw barely saw any who gave 1 or 5 stars, most gave a few with good arguments to support it.

Here ya go: amazon review breakdown 548 people out of 685 reviews gave it either 1 or 5 stars. Quality reviewing right there :P

A lot of the downsides mentioned have nothing to do with the game itself. Its about public chat channels and stuff like that. You know you're playing a great game when the only flaws found are not technical or gameplay related.
And seriously, who cares about LAN support? You can still play against each other, just connect to the internet. If you cant play SC2 against your brother in the other room because you dont have internet, you have bigger problems: you dont have internet, get it.


After playing it for a while, i can safely say its a great game. Missions, story, cutscenes, graphics, all good. There is no revolution in gameplay when compared to SC1, although some of the missions do have interesting twists to them that weren't in the original game.

Its not 10/10 though:
1. Its part 1 of a trilogy. Blizzard wants more of my money, i dont like that.
2. Region lock. This makes no sense, i'm sure they'll remove this eventually but that's probably years down the line.

Flaws i can live with.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.01 20:57:00 - [95]
 

I just read the first page of reviews, which werent 1s and 5s. I just looked at those, if you dont read the text with it consumer reviews are pretty useless.

Quote:
You know you're playing a great game when the only flaws found are not technical or gameplay related.

Well it seems to be a problem in that part of games country. MW2 (for PC) was also fine gameplay wise. But what could have been close to a perfect game wasnt worth more than 6-7/10 or something due to crap multiplayer system they made.
It isnt that bad with SC2, it also is pretty hard to top MW2 for crappy multiplayer systems, but such things make what could have been a near perfect game (in its niche, personal preferenced can for example make you like supcom or aoe better) into something not more than good.

Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
Posted - 2010.08.01 23:15:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Terranid Meester on 01/08/2010 23:19:32
Originally by: Vogue
Edited by: Vogue on 27/07/2010 20:57:17
A good RTS has 'rock paper scissors elements'.


Thats not strictly true although it does depend on what you mean by rock, paper, scissors. Every unit in every RTS has something that can defeat it [probably].

Im looking at Company Of Heroes [in my opinion possibly the best RTS of all-time] as a sort of anti rock,paper,scissors rts.

Originally by: Magnus Orin
Every RTS is the same as the last as far as game play.
I despise how the entire strategy genre is watered down by RTS games as well.



You should definitely play CoH


Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.08.02 04:56:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: oniplE
You know you're playing a great game when the only flaws found are not technical or gameplay related.


I'd disagree on the technical problems. Even the big reviews mention them.

But despite that - Flaws are flaws, hence the game is not great. It might be good, of course, but not great. I do admit that SC2 is a good game (though personally i'm leaning to mediocre at best), but it's lack of innovation and it's disregard for the player prevent it from becoming great. There's no way it's worth the 95 or 100 scores it's getting from the big sites, they're either blinded by their own nostalgia or bought by Activision/Blizzard.

Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.08.02 05:13:00 - [98]
 

Edited by: Reiisha on 02/08/2010 05:12:54
Wow, delayed double post. Ignore!

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2010.08.02 08:21:00 - [99]
 

When will RTS's learn from Supcom? Having a UI that takes up 1 quarter of the screen space AND being unable to rotate permanently AND being unable to zoom out a fair distance (None of this crap where you can just barely cover your main base in the screen)

I played at 1920*1200 and felt like i was back playing C&C on a 1280*1024

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2010.08.02 08:39:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Blane Xero
When will RTS's learn from Supcom?

Probably around the time when rts games go back out of mainstreamness.
Generally the only games worth playing nowadays are the ones produced by someone most people havent heard of.
Of course, most generalizations are also false, so take that as you wish.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.02 11:13:00 - [101]
 

I remember when aoe3 was released it had a freaking huge UI. Due to lots of complaints they made a smaller one pretty fast you got enable in the options, which was quite good. However there you also have the option to use custom UIs, anyone know if that is also possible with SC2? (Btw, at least still better than eve UI, yeah that is not so stealth whine).


Meanwhile the thing still isnt accepting my retail key. Apparently something went wrong with my SE asian trial key that is now preventing my retail key from being accepted, according to euro support. But they cannot remove SE asian keys, so now i got to mail them to remove my trial keys, and then it hopefully works. Would be nice if they could just call (or walk to, since it is probably all in one indian call center) SE asian support and ask them to do it instead of letting me mail again and wait again in the queue.

Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.02 11:19:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Magnus Orin


I despise how the entire strategy genre is watered down by RTS games as well.




There is something wrong when players of a "strategy" game brag about doing 200 clicks a minute.


Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.02 11:30:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Shawna Gray
Originally by: Magnus Orin


I despise how the entire strategy genre is watered down by RTS games as well.




There is something wrong when players of a "strategy" game brag about doing 200 clicks a minute.



Never played strategy game where anyone cared about that, but yeah apparently people care about that in the SC corner. I'll make it a personal goal to get my clicks per minute as low as possible without having negative impact on my gameplay. Apparently many just make completely random clicks to get their APM up.

Only game where i can see APM as being useful measurement of how good you are is PI tbh.

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2010.08.02 11:30:00 - [104]
 

Edited by: Blane Xero on 02/08/2010 11:31:09
Originally by: Shawna Gray
Originally by: Magnus Orin


I despise how the entire strategy genre is watered down by RTS games as well.




There is something wrong when players of a "strategy" game brag about doing 200 clicks a minute.


If you think about it, almost every game out there can be broken down to clicking. Especially Eve.

Bluefix
Gnu Terror Corps
Posted - 2010.08.02 12:37:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Blane Xero
If you think about it, almost every game out there can be broken down to clicking. Especially Eve.


I think the point was that the clicking requires very little thought, since the game is simple.

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2010.08.02 13:00:00 - [106]
 

done the campaign and on Multiplayer now. It's pretty fun, liking some of the new units a lot but I think some are a little too good, like the anti-everything Thor which is basically unstoppable when backed up by Siege Tanks and SCVs, at least as Zerg, but then Zerg were never good at defence

Still Zerg get the Nydus Tunnel which IMO is the single most useful thing to have in an RTS game
1 - Spawn Changeling, move it to back of enemy base
2 - Distract enemy with something while you spawn a Nydus Worm
3 - ???
4 - Profit Very Happy

seriously, there's nothing like express mailing a Zergrush direct to the enemy's Command Centre

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.08.02 13:57:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer

Never played strategy game where anyone cared about that, but yeah apparently people care about that in the SC corner. I'll make it a personal goal to get my clicks per minute as low as possible without having negative impact on my gameplay. Apparently many just make completely random clicks to get their APM up.

Only game where i can see APM as being useful measurement of how good you are is PI tbh.


Friend of mine used to show me how "pros" play SC. He was clicking like 10 times for one unit to move towards enemy base. "Look at my APM! thats how pros play". Well i just told him hes ******ed and 1 click suffices... but meh. Im not a "pro" v0v

Alina Khalid
Posted - 2010.08.03 12:47:00 - [108]
 

Edited by: Alina Khalid on 03/08/2010 12:53:59
Played the beta, thought it was alright.

Played the full game, thought it was alright.

After Dawn of War 1 and 2, Supreme Commander and hell even Homeworld 1 and 2 I am just not impressed by SC 2. The first one was great for it's time, but this is nothing special. Not by any stretch of imagination is this game deserving of all the hype. It's good, but it's not good enough to warrant all the fanboyism.

Not that I'm surprised though, if a company is popular just as Blizzard is, it's bound to attract masses of morons that think a better looking Command and Conquer in space is some revolutionary piece of work.

Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.08.03 13:52:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Alina Khalid
After Dawn of War 1 and 2, Supreme Commander and hell even Homeworld 1 and 2


You just listed almost all the reasons why SC2 does not deserve the praise it's getting right now.

Cyprus Black
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.08.03 14:45:00 - [110]
 

Lets keep things in perspective.

Would you buy a car that's way overpriced?
Would you still buy it if it's missing the seats, windows, interior lining, one wheel, the hood, all the doors, the muffler, the dashboard, AC, and two thirds of the frame?
Would you still buy this car under the stipulation that you could only drive it around on their lot and had to pay extra to access bonus features such as headlights and steering wheel?
Would you believe the "professional" car review sites who gave this car a perfect 100 score?

No?

Then why in the hell would you buy this game with the same metaphorical problems as the scenario above? Sure it does technically drive and the paintjob is pretty, but that's all its got going for this POS car.

Food for thought.

Winged Crime
Minmatar
The Blood Money Cartel
Posted - 2010.08.03 15:24:00 - [111]
 

Edited by: Winged Crime on 03/08/2010 15:41:05
Originally by: Cyprus Black
Lets keep things in perspective.

Would you buy a car that's way overpriced?
Would you still buy it if it's missing the seats, windows, interior lining, one wheel, the hood, all the doors, the muffler, the dashboard, AC, and two thirds of the frame?
Would you still buy this car under the stipulation that you could only drive it around on their lot and had to pay extra to access bonus features such as headlights and steering wheel?
Would you believe the "professional" car review sites who gave this car a perfect 100 score?

No?

Then why in the hell would you buy this game with the same metaphorical problems as the scenario above? Sure it does technically drive and the paintjob is pretty, but that's all its got going for this POS car.

Food for thought.


In advance: the following is coming from someone who had nothing good to say about Starcraft, the SC2 beta and Blizzard in general most of the time.. a serious doubter..


To be frank,
Hi I'm Frank. It isn't missing anything, it has MORE than expected.

I bought it for different reasons than most. I was fascinated with the editor and what you could do with it. HOWEVER - I discovered a pleasant surprise: It's jammed PACKED full of features, content, stuff to do... the only thing "missing" is that LAN support, which doesn't bother me most of the time (though does a little on principle).

The things most of the naysayers whine about are pointless. Why do you want "chat channels" and stuff?

Regardless of what you wish the game did or didn't have, I can assure you that as a supreme skeptic I've found my money worth here. There's so much to do, and it's a clever package. I prefer the gameplay of other more advanced/creative RTS games but they've done a good job of making it interesting through other methods.

Do I think it's worth the praise it's getting review-wise? Maybe not entirely. I think there needs to be a split in reviews from now on. A great game is not necessarily a great buy, and vice versa. I'd give the "value", what you get for your money a higher score than the gameplay and so forth for sure.


Whattis
Posted - 2010.08.03 15:43:00 - [112]
 

Edited by: Whattis on 03/08/2010 15:47:39
Quote:

LAN support


I would bet money that 98% of people complaining about lack of LAN support wouldn't use the feature if it was available.

Quote:
playing against people from other regions


Minor inconvenience at worst. Unless every 'friend' you have is an interweb-friend, in which case a lack of cross-region play in Starcraft 2 is the least of your problems.

Quote:
Public chat channels


For the fifty people that don't already use IRC? Yeah totally worth the resources. Also, if you read the EULA and Blizzard's Privacy Policy you wouldn't even WANT to chat on any Battle.net connected service.

Quote:
game browser where you can give games a name


Sucks.

Quote:
clan support


Surprise surprise, nobody cares what 'clan' you are in but you, use IRC to chat with friends like everybody else has been doing for the last ten years.

Stop parroting this same batch of "complaints" everywhere you go, think for yourself for christ sake.

Edit:

Originally by: Reiisha
You just listed almost all the reasons why SC2 does not deserve the praise it's getting right now.


Mediocre RTSes? Starcraft 2 isn't as great as people are making it out to be, but innovating or not, it's better than any of the games on that list.

Ace2001
Caldari
S E A R
Posted - 2010.08.03 16:02:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Whattis
Edited by: Whattis on 03/08/2010 15:47:39
Originally by: Reiisha
You just listed almost all the reasons why SC2 does not deserve the praise it's getting right now.


Mediocre RTSes? Starcraft 2 isn't as great as people are making it out to be, but innovating or not, it's better than any of the games on that list.


...Did you just call the HomeWorld games Mediocre?...Alright, where are my pitchforks and torches. There's a warlock that needs a burnin'.

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.03 18:49:00 - [114]
 

Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 03/08/2010 18:50:43

Originally by: Cyprus Black
Lets keep things in perspective.

Would you buy a car that's way overpriced?
Would you still buy it if it's missing the seats, windows, interior lining, one wheel, the hood, all the doors, the muffler, the dashboard, AC, and two thirds of the frame?
Would you still buy this car under the stipulation that you could only drive it around on their lot and had to pay extra to access bonus features such as headlights and steering wheel?
Would you believe the "professional" car review sites who gave this car a perfect 100 score?

No?

Then why in the hell would you buy this game with the same metaphorical problems as the scenario above? Sure it does technically drive and the paintjob is pretty, but that's all its got going for this POS car.

Food for thought.


Not much thought in there.

Your metaphor does not really work here, because I have played a lot of games, including a well known space based mmorpg were the features are a lot less polished. The lack of LAN support is really not a problem, it might have been 10 years ago, but now we live in the age of fast broadband connections. Chat channels, I guess all the spambot users are terribly hurt, but for me it saves the time finding a way OUT of a particular channel.

For the lack of steering wheel, well the mouse and keyboard controls work pretty well, thanks for asking. Very Happy

Sorry your post is just a random collection of rants of someone who is an expert at not playing the game.

Dray
Caldari
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.08.03 22:25:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Whattis

Mediocre RTSes? Starcraft 2 isn't as great as people are making it out to be, but innovating or not, it's better than any of the games on that list.


Actually every game on that list is as good as, or in the case of Supreme Commander, far better.

LAN is a big deal actually, just because you think that the internet is much better than it was 10 years ago, debatable in some cases, doesn't mean that people playing on LAN's don't matter, for all of its deficiencies I could forgive most of them for LAN support, as it is I'm playing a pirated version because I'm not going to pay for a game where LAN is important for me and my group of friends and isn't supported.

Ella C'Tronix
Posted - 2010.08.03 22:52:00 - [116]
 

Shampoo is better, I go on first and CLEAN the hair!



Seriously, getting into a "such and such" is better thing leads nowhere.. some people have really bad taste :)



digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2010.08.04 02:42:00 - [117]
 

well,according to firing squad article here,starcraft 2 sold more than 1.5 million copies in the first 48 hours of hitting retail,so that basically pays for the entire development of the game when each copy sells for 60$(rumored to be about 100 million $ to develop the game)....Impressive to say the least.

http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=22970


100 million to make the game is the kind of budget usually allowed for a major movie release.

Dray
Caldari
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.08.04 03:00:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: digitalwanderer
well,according to firing squad article here,starcraft 2 sold more than 1.5 million copies in the first 48 hours of hitting retail,so that basically pays for the entire development of the game when each copy sells for 60$(rumored to be about 100 million $ to develop the game)....Impressive to say the least.

http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=22970


100 million to make the game is the kind of budget usually allowed for a major movie release.


Avatar cost @ $250m to make, so far its pulled in over $18b, it's still a turkey, best dressed turkey you will ever see, but a turkey nonetheless.

Starcraft 2 is a solid release, not genre busting, not innovative but solid, if you're a fan of the original and don't mind battlenet as the only multiplayer option available I would be honest enough to say it's worth buying.

The presentation is first rate, and it's well balanced, a few niggles are the lack of map view options, the zoom range is a joke, the unit sound bites at first amuse then irritate, plus the medics annoy me as they like to march right to the front of a pitched battle and get pwnd when they should hang back and heal, think of the Rambo Jesus medics in Bad Company 2 except they die a lot more.

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2010.08.04 03:16:00 - [119]
 

Edited by: digitalwanderer on 04/08/2010 03:18:05
Originally by: Dray
Originally by: digitalwanderer
well,according to firing squad article here,starcraft 2 sold more than 1.5 million copies in the first 48 hours of hitting retail,so that basically pays for the entire development of the game when each copy sells for 60$(rumored to be about 100 million $ to develop the game)....Impressive to say the least.

http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=22970


100 million to make the game is the kind of budget usually allowed for a major movie release.


Avatar cost @ $250m to make, so far its pulled in over $18b, it's still a turkey, best dressed turkey you will ever see, but a turkey nonetheless.

Starcraft 2 is a solid release, not genre busting, not innovative but solid, if you're a fan of the original and don't mind battlenet as the only multiplayer option available I would be honest enough to say it's worth buying.

The presentation is first rate, and it's well balanced, a few niggles are the lack of map view options, the zoom range is a joke, the unit sound bites at first amuse then irritate, plus the medics annoy me as they like to march right to the front of a pitched battle and get pwnd when they should hang back and heal, think of the Rambo Jesus medics in Bad Company 2 except they die a lot more.



I gotta admit that the quotes used by pilots for the large thor walkers units sound like a famous german actor....I use the term actor very losely here obviously.

As for starcraft 2,the main point here is that it's a title that's PC exclusive,and not available on any console,so that 1.5 million + copies sold in 48 hours makes it even more impressive,and we have to see what the sales will be by the end of the first month,so it proves that there's a market for PC exclusive titles,and not making games that have to run on both PC's and consoles.

Current consoles are getting long in the tooth with there outdated hardware,even when compared with a Budget PC,and that holds developers back bigtime.


Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.04 06:28:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 04/08/2010 06:30:57
Originally by: Whattis
Edited by: Whattis on 03/08/2010 15:47:39
Minor inconvenience at worst. Unless every 'friend' you have is an interweb-friend, in which case a lack of cross-region play in Starcraft 2 is the least of your problems.

Unless, shocker, i have both? It is at least a completely ******ed idea that should give them at least a full point removed from any review.

Quote:
For the fifty people that don't already use IRC? Yeah totally worth the resources.

This may come hard for you, but relative barely anyone uses IRC, IRC is dying, deal with it. I dont want to join an IRC channel just so i can chat in a game with others playing.

Quote:
Sucks.

How can i counter such arguments, oh wait:

NO U

Quote:
Surprise surprise, nobody cares what 'clan' you are in but you, use IRC to chat with friends like everybody else has been doing for the last ten years.

IRC is still dead. And the vast majority of clans havent touched IRC the last 10 years. You are just projecting your IRC preferences others. Some people just want a finished game where not stuff that is in most RTS's/other games for years is missing.


Quote:
Stop parroting this same batch of "complaints" everywhere you go, think for yourself for christ sake.

Stop fanboying and accept that it misses alot in the multiplayer. Did i mention the ladder system still sucks?

Quote:

Mediocre RTSes? Starcraft 2 isn't as great as people are making it out to be, but innovating or not, it's better than any of the games on that list.

Well we can agree on that it isnt as great at it is hyped to be. Sadly according to you no one may want other stuff in a game where you just say you should use IRC. In not a single clan in not a single game i have been in IRC was used. What is listed above is all stuff that has generally been in pretty much every RTS released lately. Those things greatly improve the community feeling.

What i am used to in other RTS, lets say you just played a nice 3v3, with random teams just, so you decide to play again with most, some have to go, etc. Then you just hosted a custom game and everyone who wanted joined that. In SC2 i first need to get people mutually in my friends list and start a party with them, that just doesnt work.

SC2 has pretty many similarities to MW2 (on pc). Both were overhyped. Both had a solid core gameplay, although nothing really shockingly innovative. And both could have been non-innovating, but close to perfect, if they wouldnt have ****ed up the online system. Now SC2 isnt as bad as MW2, which went imo from the 10 from perfect to 6-7 at most. I would say SC2 goes to 7.5-8. Definately not bad, just greatly overhyped and missing alot.


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