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Lykouleon
Gallente
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.07.27 21:14:00 - [391]
 

Originally by: General Windypops
Why haven't you guys considered calling my esteemed former U'K colleague Butthurt Plug?


Mostly because it doesn't really rhyme well. Come on, can't have a good nick-name unless it rhymes

Kazzzi
Amarr
Heathen Legion
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.07.27 22:02:00 - [392]
 

Originally by: Garreck

No. I'm referring to U'K's rather gleeful use of -A-'s real-time intel from vent compromise, the same use of POS passwords for bowling, and general mockery of CVA when we, at the time, proposed this was against certain gentlemen's rules U'K and CVA used to stick to (not unlike U'K's implications now that Aralis knowing of U'K's imminent demise is a similar breach of those rules.)


Dude, I couldn't ever run a ten man roaming gang without at least two of your blue's spies trying to join gang and vent. People you work with have attempted to pos bowl us in the past. You had the least e-honorable blues I've ever seen. We stopped bothering to let you know about them convo spamming to lag us, spamming our pilots with fleet invites, and being notorious for dishonoring 1v1s since it was clear long ago you didn't mind working with d-bags.

Do you think you guys are special? Get off your high horse.

Garreck
Gallente
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.27 22:18:00 - [393]
 

Originally by: Kazzzi
We stopped bothering to let you know


Conveniently enough for the purposes of this discussion, eh? Wink

You still think this is a discussion about who "started it," and I'm beginning to feel like I'm speaking another language or something.

The point remains Aralis had no obligation, by any standard, to tell U'K what he knew, and U'K blaming CVA for Hyrda's independent actions is cognitive dissonance at best and staggering hypocrisy at worst.

Maybe I'm being trolled?

General Windypops
Gallente
The Littlest Hobos
En Garde
Posted - 2010.07.27 22:33:00 - [394]
 

Edited by: General Windypops on 27/07/2010 22:35:30
Originally by: Garreck
Originally by: Kazzzi
We stopped bothering to let you know


Conveniently enough for the purposes of this discussion, eh? Wink

You still think this is a discussion about who "started it," and I'm beginning to feel like I'm speaking another language or something.

The point remains Aralis had no obligation, by any standard, to tell U'K what he knew, and U'K blaming CVA for Hyrda's independent actions is cognitive dissonance at best and staggering hypocrisy at worst.

Maybe I'm being trolled?


People stopped bothering to tell you because you did nothing about it, Garreck, and you know that better than anyone. To claim ignorance is just laughable.

The simple fact is that when CVA was disbanded we felt that the tradition of our conflict was too important to abuse the situation. Even when U'K defeated you militarily we still preserved the spirit of our conflict in the space we controlled.

Aralis and yourself, however, have shown that you prefer to win through director level disbands than through genuine victory. It's not the first time by any means. We all know what you did with the tower spam, buddy. Do you know what? I'd have done the same thing personally, but I have far lower morals than most of U'K.

The puzzling bit is your attemt to retrospectively paint CVA as the injured party... you used the age old tactic of people who couldn't win through straight fights. Fine. Just stop trying to desperately whitewash history. You're scum like me, and you should just admit it, Garreck.


Kazzzi
Amarr
Heathen Legion
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.07.27 22:34:00 - [395]
 

Originally by: Garreck
Conveniently enough for the purposes of this discussion, eh?


Originally by: Garreck
We were well past the point with U'K where we felt obligated to report as we had in the past,


Double standard. Your diplos received a ton of complaints and you know it :p

Originally by: Garreck


The point remains Aralis had no obligation, by any standard, to tell U'K what he knew, and U'K blaming CVA for Hyrda's independent actions is cognitive dissonance at best and staggering hypocrisy at worst.

Maybe I'm being trolled?


Don't care about Aralis and what he knew and no you aren't being trolled, just saying your people have no business proclaiming their holier than thou attitude.

Originally by: Garreck

I'm really not concerned about who started what at this point; the conversation (particularly mis/disinformation about the tower spam in 9uy) is old and tired.

Your mis/disinformation of our complicity in what you think happened at D-G is old and tired already.

Garreck
Gallente
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.27 22:39:00 - [396]
 

Originally by: General Windypops
Aralis and yourself, however, have shown that you prefer to win through director level disbands than through genuine victory.


Originally by: General Windypops
The puzzling bit is your attemt to retrospectively paint CVA as the injured party...


Aha. Definitely getting trolled now, as I've stated exactly the opposite of each of these assertions multiple times.

ED FAT
Gallente
Muppet Factory
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.07.27 22:46:00 - [397]
 

Originally by: General Windypops
Edited by: General Windypops on 27/07/2010 22:35:30
Originally by: Garreck
Originally by: Kazzzi
We stopped bothering to let you know


Conveniently enough for the purposes of this discussion, eh? Wink

You still think this is a discussion about who "started it," and I'm beginning to feel like I'm speaking another language or something.

The point remains Aralis had no obligation, by any standard, to tell U'K what he knew, and U'K blaming CVA for Hyrda's independent actions is cognitive dissonance at best and staggering hypocrisy at worst.

Maybe I'm being trolled?


People stopped bothering to tell you because you did nothing about it, Garreck, and you know that better than anyone. To claim ignorance is just laughable.

The simple fact is that when CVA was disbanded we felt that the tradition of our conflict was too important to abuse the situation. Even when -A- defeated you militarily we still preserved the spirit of our conflict in the space we controlled.

Aralis and yourself, however, have shown that you prefer to win through director level disbands than through genuine victory. It's not the first time by any means. We all know what you did with the tower spam, buddy. Do you know what? I'd have done the same thing personally, but I have far lower morals than most of U'K.

The puzzling bit is your attemt to retrospectively paint CVA as the injured party... you used the age old tactic of people who couldn't win through straight fights. Fine. Just stop trying to desperately whitewash history. You're scum like me, and you should just admit it, Garreck.




Fixed

Garreck
Gallente
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.27 22:47:00 - [398]
 

Originally by: Kazzzi
just saying your people have no business proclaiming their holier than thou attitude.


And your people have no business proclaiming we proclaim a holier than thou attitude.

Our standards are our own, and for ourselves. We don't expect our enemies to encumber themselves with the same standards, and we've stopped expecting this from ushra'khan for some time as well. That's not an indictment. It just is. We had gentlemen's rules, now we don't. We can sit here all day and cry "you started it" without getting anywhere, which is why I was quick to steer the conversation away from that pointless line of bla-dee-bla, but you and yours seem really insistant on keeping it there.

D-G? When has that been thrown around by CVA? You're the one who keeps bringing it up as if it's relevant at all to this conversation, to YOUR pilot's betrayal, to HYDRA's schemes, and to U'K's demise.

General Windypops
Gallente
The Littlest Hobos
En Garde
Posted - 2010.07.27 22:48:00 - [399]
 

Edited by: General Windypops on 27/07/2010 22:52:00
Edited by: General Windypops on 27/07/2010 22:50:16
Originally by: Garreck
Originally by: General Windypops
Aralis and yourself, however, have shown that you prefer to win through director level disbands than through genuine victory.


Originally by: General Windypops
The puzzling bit is your attemt to retrospectively paint CVA as the injured party...


Aha. Definitely getting trolled now, as I've stated exactly the opposite of each of these assertions multiple times.


Disclaimer: I'm going to get a bit emo now, so flame me CAOD


Garreck, I've always had more time for you than for most you crew precisely BECAUSE you have usually been straight up.

When I first saw you posting on this subject I thought I knew what you would stand for. Saying that you're 'disappointed' to 'win' this way, but just going along with it because you have to is just ludicrous. As I said just above I'd have had no qualms about using whatever advantage I could get. However I've got far fewer scruples than the rest of U'K.

Edit: Ok, your post above just confirms what I have said. I love how 'gentlemans rules' apply when you're losing, but not when you get a cheap shot at overturning your genuine defeat.



Kazzzi
Amarr
Heathen Legion
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.07.27 22:56:00 - [400]
 

Originally by: Garreck

D-G? When has that been thrown around by CVA? You're the one who keeps bringing it up as if it's relevant at all to this conversation, to YOUR pilot's betrayal, to HYDRA's schemes, and to U'K's demise.

D-G is where your pilots claim we did much of the naughty stuff they like to complain about. Like how we sat in our evil lair with our kitty and laser beam sharks and masterminded the pos bowling you've mentioned several times.

Garreck
Gallente
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.27 23:05:00 - [401]
 

Originally by: General Windypops
Garreck, I've always had more time for you than for most you crew precisely BECAUSE you have usually been straight up.

I can't be any more straight up than to say we had nothing to do with Hydra's plan and from where I sit Aralis had no obligation even by long-held CVA standards to tell U'K what was coming due to (now clearly demonstrated) degredation of relations between CVA and U'K.

That's my straight-up "take" on all of this.

I'm really confused about what we've "won" here, because at the end of the day, U'K no longer existing doesn't change CVA's strategic readiness and capability one little bit. Besides, our goal has never been the destruction of U'K such that even their name was no longer theirs, so seeing that happen is not a victory of any kind.

What do we do about it? Stop playing the game? Because everybody else uses spies or buys off disgruntled members or metagames etc and we don't? By logging in and playing we ALL accept that treacherous crap goes down in Eve all the time. We're all indirectly complicit in it because nothing happens in this game that doesn't affect dozens of organizations directly or indirectly, whether those organizations want to be affected or not.

No, we just press forward, play our way, and stick to our rules 'cause that makes us feel warm and fuzzy.

Garreck
Gallente
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.27 23:13:00 - [402]
 

Originally by: Kazzzi

D-G is where your pilots claim we did much of the naughty stuff they like to complain about.

I was unaware it had been brought up in this thread or any others regarding U'K's demise, or indeed any thread involving U'K and CVA at all. Our beef in D-G is solely with CCP, and we've written it off as FCs making ill-advised decisions optimistically and unrealistically hoping for adequate server performance.

Y'know, just for the record Wink

General Windypops
Gallente
The Littlest Hobos
En Garde
Posted - 2010.07.27 23:15:00 - [403]
 

Edited by: General Windypops on 27/07/2010 23:16:22
Originally by: Garreck
I'm really confused about what we've "won" here


I'm not surprised. You've lost far more than you've gained, from what I can see. I've always been puzzled as to why U'K was so determined to make sure that CVA was always kept alive. Personally I couldn't give a toss, but I've only been a part of U'K for 2 years, and I know the relationship has lasted for many many more years than that.

I don't understand why Hydra has some sort of level of control over CVA though, since you claim your decision about whether to participate or not was out of your control?



Kazzzi
Amarr
Heathen Legion
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.07.27 23:19:00 - [404]
 

Originally by: Garreck

I can't be any more straight up than to say we had nothing to do with Hydra's plan and from where I sit Aralis had no obligation even by long-held CVA standards to tell U'K what was coming


This is fine, I don't care what Hydra did, we'll fix the mess. I don't care if Aralis knew all along. I don't care if you even try to take advantage of the situation. My only complaint through this entire ordeal is your alliance members attitude with their delusions of superior e-honor and stating we deserved what happened.

I understand your people needed scapegoats to explain the loss of their first epic fleet battles to all the disheartened nubs, but seriously, your people have gotten very childishly bitter, like a 10 year old who's sister has just broken his model airplane.

Originally by: Garreck

No, we just press forward, play our way, and stick to our rules 'cause that makes us feel warm and fuzzy.
Rock on

General Windypops
Gallente
The Littlest Hobos
En Garde
Posted - 2010.07.27 23:20:00 - [405]
 

Edited by: General Windypops on 27/07/2010 23:21:07
Originally by: Garreck

I can't be any more straight up than to say we had nothing to do with Hydra's plan


Originally by: Garreck
Aralis had no obligation, by any standard, to tell U'K what he knew


Drop the crap, Garreck. You've admitted you knew. This is getting ridiculous now. I think it's cute that you've been sent out to defend your honour, but at least try to be consistent within posts you've made in the last 10 minutes...



Kazzzi
Amarr
Heathen Legion
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.07.27 23:24:00 - [406]
 

Edited by: Kazzzi on 27/07/2010 23:25:46
Originally by: Garreck

I was unaware it had been brought up in this thread or any others regarding U'K's demise,


Originally by: Garreck
[This was our understanding of our relationship until U'K pilots were bowling CVA POSes

post 339 and pretty much every time I talk to a cva member it gets brought up

Garreck
Gallente
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.27 23:37:00 - [407]
 

Originally by: General Windypops
You've admitted you knew.

Aralis knew, yes. And he told nobody about it. And CVA had nothing to do with the plan. It's pretty straight-forward, really.

Garreck
Gallente
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.27 23:43:00 - [408]
 

Originally by: Kazzzi
post 339 and pretty much every time I talk to a cva member it gets brought up

Aha.

I see the confusion. This is not a D-G issue; it was an every-system-in-Providence issue, Kazzzi. And yeah, we do bring it up quite a bit. Not to get into a back-and-forth of who started what, but to illustrate why we feel old decorum no longer applies (it obviously didn't then.) Specific to this discussion, I mention it as the reason Aralis was not obligated to tell Ushra'Khan of the tragedy heading their way.

Kazzzi
Amarr
Heathen Legion
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.07.28 00:18:00 - [409]
 

Originally by: Garreck
I mention it as the reason Aralis was not obligated to tell Ushra'Khan of the tragedy heading their way.


That's fine, Aralis doesn't need to have any friends here. But if your blues warped your fleet into our POS, I really don't think that would justify me being happy with seeing your alliance stolen by a spy. We're not that petty.

Ohh Yeah
Minmatar
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2010.07.28 04:51:00 - [410]
 

It's only a matter of time before Jade starts throwing spoons.

Soldarius
Caldari
Peek-A-Boo Bombers
Posted - 2010.07.28 06:02:00 - [411]
 

Seems to be a lot of this going around lately.

Niding
Amarr
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.07.28 08:10:00 - [412]
 

Edited by: Niding on 28/07/2010 08:11:08
Originally by: General Windypops
Edited by: General Windypops on 27/07/2010 23:16:22
Originally by: Garreck
I'm really confused about what we've "won" here


I'm not surprised. You've lost far more than you've gained, from what I can see. I've always been puzzled as to why U'K was so determined to make sure that CVA was always kept alive. Personally I couldn't give a toss, but I've only been a part of U'K for 2 years, and I know the relationship has lasted for many many more years than that.

I don't understand why Hydra has some sort of level of control over CVA though, since you claim your decision about whether to participate or not was out of your control?





Control of what? Attacking r3/n8 or the UK hostile takeover?
We didnt see Hydra around since they pulled out of Sev3rance, so I wouldnt say thatHydra had a hold on us.
For the most part we have been sticking around r3 area doing our own thing until Hydra made their play that have revived the intrest some of the ex CVAers that
moved north.
If we let ourselves be "controlled", we would have accepted the AAA deal back before Providence got sieged beyond D-G.

As for r3/n8 if thats what your talking about;
Havent we been throwing SBUs like they are candy at those systems the last few months?
Its not like Hyrda have had anything to do with that fact in the past, nor now.

Avicenna Sarfaraz
Caldari
The Maverick Navy
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.07.28 08:33:00 - [413]
 

Now Now, how could you all have a discussion about providence and leave me out of this?
==


FOEHAMMER006
Caldari
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.07.28 08:38:00 - [414]
 

We are missing more goon infestation and WIdots. Then this thread will be complete!

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.28 08:41:00 - [415]
 

I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, but seriously guys, neither the CVA nor the former U'K are doing themselves any favours with this mostly irrelevant back-and-forth.

The fact of the matter is that whether or not Aralis should have tipped off his enemies in advance is actually a pretty minor component in this whole sorry tale.

Niding
Amarr
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.07.28 08:55:00 - [416]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, but seriously guys, neither the CVA nor the former U'K are doing themselves any favours with this mostly irrelevant back-and-forth.

The fact of the matter is that whether or not Aralis should have tipped off his enemies in advance is actually a pretty minor component in this whole sorry tale.


Why leave us wondering Rodj? Why not point to the MAJOR component(s)?

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.28 09:02:00 - [417]
 

Originally by: Niding
Originally by: Rodj Blake
I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, but seriously guys, neither the CVA nor the former U'K are doing themselves any favours with this mostly irrelevant back-and-forth.

The fact of the matter is that whether or not Aralis should have tipped off his enemies in advance is actually a pretty minor component in this whole sorry tale.


Why leave us wondering Rodj? Why not point to the MAJOR component(s)?


Well, the major component specific to this incident would appear to be that a U'K director decided to defect to Hydra and took the alliance name with him.

Consider the following: a man gets murdered. Who should be punished more severely - the actual killers or the bloke who overheard them discussing their plans down the pub?

Of course, the real problem is one of crappy game mechanics. I mean, how difficult can it be to put in place a cooldown timer when ejecting corps from an alliance?

Niding
Amarr
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.07.28 09:14:00 - [418]
 

Fair enough Rodj, but that goes back to the whole discussion Garreck have been conducting.

Not sure how informed you are with regards to the conduct at the battlefield the last year in Providence.
You might have drawn different conclusions if exposed to the changed nature of the ROE.

Butter Dog
Gallente
The Monocled Elite
Posted - 2010.07.28 10:15:00 - [419]
 

no-one in UK 'blames' CVA for this, at least no-one sane

no-one sane blames Hydra either

it was the actions of one person, it was within game mechanics, and thats it

however, trolling CVA for their lack of e-honour is pretty fun Embarassed

Minigin
Caldari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.07.28 11:14:00 - [420]
 

this thread has really gone downhill since i lost my drake =(


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