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N3M37H
Amarr
McWOOKIE'S REVOLOUTION
Posted - 2010.07.23 15:36:00 - [1]
 

This is quite an annoying subject.
Since there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.
This i believe is wrong, Last night i was running missions along with a friend and of course salvage thieves come along. So I get the great idea of popping the wrecks. And of course, I get concorded. What happens when you salvage someone else's wrecks?!?! NOTHING!
This is stealing, it's the exact same as going up to someones jet can while their mining and taking from it. But with no consequences. The owner of those wrecks should be able to agress the "thief in question". If not get concorded!

Anddeh McNab
Cadre Assault Force
Posted - 2010.07.23 15:48:00 - [2]
 

Every time some muppet makes a post like this I go and remove a limb from a small child. Let me tell you I have an entire garage of child limbs.

It has been said time and time again by CCP that they endorse this kind of them, ninja salvaging is a completely valid way to make money and isn't going to change any time soon. Wreck do not, and I repeat do NOT, belong to you. Loot does, wrecks do NOT. Are you starting to understand?

There are some things you can do about it; salvage as you go (ideally in a mararuder), blow up your wrecks, or simply leave the mission. This will hopefully dump a pocket's worth of rats on his end so either he'll die or leave as well.

WarpCore Breacher
Posted - 2010.07.23 15:49:00 - [3]
 

well I can agree with you on it to a point ofc in missions more so thats why we can turn them blue if they are still not yours but as in yellow sure if you take you get agrroed. but same should apply if they are just wrecks. That new blue RULE SHOULD mean something right??
Peace and fly safe 0/Confused

Party Scout
Posted - 2010.07.23 15:50:00 - [4]
 

Don't mine into cans.
Go to a lower populated system.
Blow up the wrecks (make sure they belong to you first...
Salvage while missioning.
Make your ship unprobable.

Saying "there is nothing I can do" is pretty false, there are a lot of things you can do. I like the "blow wrecks up" approach. They tend to leave after a while. The other one I like to do, if I'm not really going to salvage, is just abandon the wrecks. Some people leave after that because they are looking for tears, not salvage.

N3M37H
Amarr
McWOOKIE'S REVOLOUTION
Posted - 2010.07.23 15:51:00 - [5]
 

Then why does shooting an empty wreck still get you concorded??

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.23 16:11:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: N3M37H
This is quite an annoying subject.
Since there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.
This i believe is wrong, Last night i was running missions along with a friend and of course salvage thieves come along. So I get the great idea of popping the wrecks.


All wrecks in the mission are flagged as owned/created by the mission runner, even if someone else creates the wreck. (It's okay/legal to salvage someone else's wreck though.)

If it was your friend's mission, you might have gotten popped for shooting his wrecks. You should have gotten a popup warning about performing a concordable action though.


Sully Tude
Posted - 2010.07.23 16:16:00 - [7]
 

I agree with the OP:

Everyone should be able to freely blow up wrecks.

I will then volunteer to personally follow you and your friend around, blowing up your wrecks as you pop the ships so that no one can steal them from you.

Now STFU and stop whining about losing 1% of your mission income!

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.07.23 16:33:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: N3M37H
Since there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.
Incorrect. You can beat them to the punch or make yourself an unlikely target. Both can be done in numerous ways.
Quote:
This i believe is wrong,
Incorrect. It's an entirely intentional mechanic.
Quote:
Last night i was running missions along with a friend and of course salvage thieves come along.
Incorrect. The salvage isn't yours, so they're not stealing, so they're not theives.
Quote:
So I get the great idea of popping the wrecks. And of course, I get concorded.
Of course. You destroyed someone else's property.
Quote:
What happens when you salvage someone else's wrecks?!?! NOTHING!
Of course, you're leaving said property behind and only taking the free-for-all salvage.
Quote:
This is stealing, it's the exact same as going up to someones jet can while their mining and taking from it.
Nope. Taking from the the wreck is exactly the same as taking stuff from a jet can. Salvaging quite intentionally bypasses this by leaving the contents of the wreck behind.

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2010.07.23 17:01:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 23/07/2010 17:05:32
Originally by: Tippia
The salvage isn't yours, so they're not stealing, so they're not theives.
Quote:
So I get the great idea of popping the wrecks. And of course, I get concorded.
Of course. You destroyed someone else's property.


IF there's any issue, I think this highlights it.
Either the wrecks are yours and ninja salvagers are stealing, or no one owns the wrecks and Concord shouldn't WTFPWN anyone for shooting wrecks.

Personally, I think whatever rules are applied to the wrecks should also apply to the loot, and that if wrecks/loot are unowned you should be able to probe them out.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.07.23 17:13:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 23/07/2010 17:22:42
Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow
IF there's any issue, I think this highlights it.
Either the wrecks are yours and ninja salvagers are stealing, or no one owns the wrecks and Concord shouldn't WTFPWN anyone for shooting wrecks.
The issue is really that people have problems with the concept of separating the wrecks themselves from their contents. The contents are owned, and blowing the wreck up destroys those contents and gets you concorded. Salvaging a wreck just removes the free-for-all wreck itself, and leaves the owned contents untouched.
Quote:
Personally, I think whatever rules are applied to the wrecks should also apply to the loot, and that if wrecks/loot are unowned you should be able to probe them out.
True it should be the same rules everywhere: stealing from the wreck should give you an aggro timer towards whomever owned the ship that got blown up, viz. the mission rats.

Alternatively, and to drive the above point home: empty wrecks (whether they've spawned empty or been cleaned out) should automatically count as abandoned, now that we have that mechanic.

GavinCapacitor
Posted - 2010.07.23 20:16:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Tippia

Alternatively, and to drive the above point home: empty wrecks (whether they've spawned empty or been cleaned out) should automatically count as abandoned, now that we have that mechanic.


But only owners can tractor beam wrecks.

Cifese
Posted - 2010.07.23 20:32:00 - [12]
 

Loot and Salvage are two different things.
Loot belongs to the victor
Salvage belongs to whomever collects it.

Running missions out of high-volume mission hubs is like throwing dollar bills on the sidewalk. People come to get the free money (a.k.a. salvage), and they come for the tears (a.k.a. your post).

Solution: don't run missions out of hubs. Go somewhere less busy and the likelyhood of ninja salvagers goes down (but it always exists). Or, HTFU and play the game the way it is designed to work. Salvage does not belong to you. For all we know, you think of it as trash and will leave it behind, cluttering up my view of the stars...

Von Kapiche
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.23 20:41:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Von Kapiche on 23/07/2010 20:41:35
Originally by: GavinCapacitor
Originally by: Tippia

Alternatively, and to drive the above point home: empty wrecks (whether they've spawned empty or been cleaned out) should automatically count as abandoned, now that we have that mechanic.


But only owners can tractor beam wrecks.


Because when you remove the salvage, you're left with a jetcan; if it's an empty wreck the can despawns instantly. You can't tractor other people's jetcans, ergo you can't tractor a wreck. You can unwrap these particular jetcans, though...

knentil
Posted - 2010.07.25 01:39:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: knentil on 25/07/2010 01:40:22
Your forgetting the best option of all.

Ignore them.

Especially if they steal, unless of course you laid the falcon(or pilgrim, and or warp in a curse)/tackle alt accepting the mission trick waiting close by in the same corp as u.
great lulzs are to be had.

CanI haveyourstuff
Posted - 2010.07.25 06:31:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Anddeh McNab
Every time some muppet makes a post like this I go and remove a limb from a small child. Let me tell you I have an entire garage of child limbs.

It has been said time and time again by CCP that they endorse this kind of them, ninja salvaging is a completely valid way to make money and isn't going to change any time soon. Wreck do not, and I repeat do NOT, belong to you. Loot does, wrecks do NOT. Are you starting to understand?

There are some things you can do about it; salvage as you go (ideally in a mararuder), blow up your wrecks, or simply leave the mission. This will hopefully dump a pocket's worth of rats on his end so either he'll die or leave as well.



hey look.. we have another ******* here .......

if i shoot that rat then all thats left over it belongs to me. U getting that man? maybe now?

if i shoot u, ur stuff belongs to me... k?

ccp says that "oh snap.. wrecks doesnt belong to anybody" because????? because when they implemented salvaging they totally forgot that little stealing aspect. It should be same as with cans but... they forgot.. and now say "oh its working as intended"

why else does wrecks have corp tickers etc? just to notify every people in the world that this wreck belongs to everyone?

o'rly?

Srialia
Misfit Toys
Posted - 2010.07.25 11:45:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: CanI haveyourstuff

hey look.. we have another ******* here .......

if i shoot that rat then all thats left over it belongs to me. U getting that man? maybe now?

if i shoot u, ur stuff belongs to me... k?



To split hairs, the actual truth is that nothing belongs to you until you get it into your cargo hold. If I snatch it up first, be it loot or salvage, it all belongs to me. Now, apparently Concord has decided that salvage is salvage and loot is loot, and that only one of those is worth their time. If I take the loot from a wreck you made, you're welcome to try and take it back, but if I'm just salvaging, I'm breaking no laws.

Remember, the price of criminal assault against peaceful salvagers is your ship. Do try to avoid breaking the law; it's just the right thing to do.

Babel
Utopian Research I.E.L.
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2010.07.25 11:53:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Babel on 25/07/2010 11:56:53
Edited by: Babel on 25/07/2010 11:55:30
Edited by: Babel on 25/07/2010 11:54:29
Edited by: Babel on 25/07/2010 11:54:08
Originally by: N3M37H
Then why does shooting an empty wreck still get you concorded??


Because wrecks are flagged as 'belonging' to whoever's mission it is .... if not in your corp and you shoot = concord ensues. If you've turned off the 'this will upset concord' popup, well, err .. oops :)

I think the distinction from CCP's point of view is that Loot [functional modules, ammo, tags, instantly useful stuff etc] is flagged as 'belonging' to the missioneer, Salvage however is just the crappy, often 'broken', 'dysfunctional', 'wrecked' rubbish that anyone can scavenge .... Thus the current aggro flagging rules.

Makes perfect sense to me :)

vondronage
vondronage Corp
Posted - 2010.07.25 20:17:00 - [18]
 

You need to start bringing someone along dedicated to salvaging. It's being greedy and trying to accomplish all of the objectives with as few people as possible that creates the opportunity for other people to come salvage.

Terrutder
Posted - 2010.07.25 20:59:00 - [19]
 

loot belongs to me?
salvage doesnt? because.. its not loot? what is it? its..... "the mysterious thing" that doesnt belong to anybody...

great stuff that you guys are smoking, really.

It cant be more obvius than it is that ccp just forgot about flaging wreck salvage as criminal act and stealing.

its same stuff in real life.. thieves say "that car wreck seemed to have no owner, so we took it to disposal to make money off it"

yeah...

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2010.07.25 21:05:00 - [20]
 

Per CCP Mitnal:
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."

Per GM Faolchu :
Originally by: GM Faolchu
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.

Per Senior GM Ytterbium :
Originally by: GM Ytterbium
Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.

Per CCP Prism X :
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.

Per CCP Incognito :
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Had a chat with some designers this evening.
Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private.
They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.

(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)

Von Kapiche
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.25 21:06:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Terrutder

its same stuff in real life.. thieves say "that car wreck seemed to have no owner, so we took it to disposal to make money off it"

yeah...


BRB, shooting cars IRL to farm wrecks to take to junkers.

Yeah, that doesn't hold up at all, does it. YOU'd be the thief in real life. Ingame you're stealing from pirates. Someone else is stealing from you. Who's got the most right to the wreck?

Terrutder
Posted - 2010.07.25 21:13:00 - [22]
 

i know it all.. but it still sucks imo and nothing changes that.

CeneUJiti
Posted - 2010.07.25 22:25:00 - [23]
 

Just use a damn Golem or Paladin or whatever. Richest mission runners, those who everyone screams at that they make too much money... are the ones least affected by loot and salvage thieves. If they are smart of course and dont linger on gates in 0.5 systems in billion fit CNRs and Golems.

Even better solution, wait for SW:TOR to come out, cancel your account, trash all your stuff and biomass your character.

Lady Aja
Posted - 2010.07.25 22:41:00 - [24]
 

concord is raping your collective asses for shooting a wreck because of the contents.

Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow
Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 23/07/2010 17:05:32
Originally by: Tippia
The salvage isn't yours, so they're not stealing, so they're not theives.
Quote:
So I get the great idea of popping the wrecks. And of course, I get concorded.
Of course. You destroyed someone else's property.


IF there's any issue, I think this highlights it.
Either the wrecks are yours and ninja salvagers are stealing, or no one owns the wrecks and Concord shouldn't WTFPWN anyone for shooting wrecks.

Personally, I think whatever rules are applied to the wrecks should also apply to the loot, and that if wrecks/loot are unowned you should be able to probe them out.

Salient
Caldari
APOCALYPSE LEGION
Posted - 2010.07.25 22:44:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: N3M37H
Then why does shooting an empty wreck still get you concorded??


It doesn't...you must have shot someone else's wreck or done something else equally stupid

Terrutder
Posted - 2010.07.26 06:25:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: CeneUJiti
Even better solution, wait for SW:TOR to come out, cancel your account, trash all your stuff and biomass your character.


Im afraid that swtor will be even 10 times worse than wow.

anyways I mission in lowsec or do plexes in 0.0 - those ninjasalvagers doesnt bother me at all but it just aggrevates crap out of me seeing here people claiming that its ok to grief and that actually eve belongs to them.

Jason1138
Posted - 2010.07.26 07:04:00 - [27]
 

its pretty funny that wrecks "belong to no one" until you blow them up, then they belonged to the guy who created them

that's kind of ******ed CCP. just so you know

AstarothPrime
Posted - 2010.07.26 07:38:00 - [28]
 

If i understood correctly:

1) You were missioning
2) You had absolutely no intention of salvaging the wrecks
3) There was someone who actually invested his time in showing up and found it profitable to do so
4) You being a biatch decided WTF WTH why should he profit - Ill rather invest my time and ammo in preventing him even tho there is no financial nor sane reason to do so
5) You got the message - you will do dangerous act and clicked away to proceed
6) You got shot down by concord
7) You came to biatch about it in forums?

Is that correct? And what do you want? Simpathy? Applause? Or something else.

I.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.26 10:09:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: N3M37H
Then why does shooting an empty wreck still get you concorded??


Because gameplay is more important than consistency.

Max Cetera
Capital Researchs Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.26 14:24:00 - [30]
 

Lol @ fail players who get a "UR GONNA BE CONCORDED !1! Do you really want to do this ?" pop-up and manage to press "yes".

Rolling Eyes


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