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Ressiv
Massive PVPness
Posted - 2010.07.23 07:11:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
To try an imagine crew requires one to come up with all kinds of odd reasoning like you do here


Eh ... no ... it requires one to accept the backstory. Issues with the backstory's touch with reality are a laughable joke ... you're playing a game which has no touch with reality in most aspects of it.

Takashi Halamoto
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.23 07:26:00 - [32]
 

and when come incarna the first thing you see is a crewman going welcome captain your going to look like an ass,

the eve space mechanics are simplified so even mediocre computers can run it, this means abstracting alot of functions so it becomes a game, only when your able to walk around will there be a need to show the crew in a way that is meaningful,

i just dont get what it is about some people's personality that a man goes well in the world X happens and you have to say unless i see it i dont believe you, clearly you have trust and imagination issues,

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2010.07.23 08:14:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
I cannot believe that ISK is worth a lot compared to planetary currency, and simultanously believe the current price of NPC trade goods is realistic. Either the crew doesn't get paid, or the trade goods are priced wrong.


Option #3: volumes of NPC trade goods (and other items) are set for gameplay reasons (to balance cargo hold sizes and profit per trade run, etc), and are not accurate representations of the actual volume of those goods.

If you accept the NPC goods cost/volume, you end up with the absurd conclusion that a bucket of water is more expensive than a nuclear missile. Seriously, look up the average cost and descriptions of water vs. piranha light missiles. See anything wrong here?

Ford Mersombre
Posted - 2010.07.23 08:29:00 - [34]
 

Wow, we have crews?

I thought I read or heard in beta that it was just use in the goo flying ships.

Us having crews explains why our ships look like they have windows all over them. Always wondered about that if we were the only one in the ship.

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
Posted - 2010.07.23 08:31:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Jint Hikaru on 23/07/2010 08:31:04
Originally by: Monistat Seven

There are ship crews as stated in fiction that is true, but it is not reflected in any way shape or form (except for a few mission rescues) that crews are indicated.


Our ships have windows.

Think about it...

Y Berion
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.23 08:43:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Y Berion on 23/07/2010 08:49:43
Originally by: Ressiv
Originally by: Merdaneth
To try an imagine crew requires one to come up with all kinds of odd reasoning like you do here


Eh ... no ... it requires one to accept the backstory. Issues with the backstory's touch with reality are a laughable joke ... you're playing a game which has no touch with reality in most aspects of it.


Backstory -or at least that blurry part about human crews- should be better connected with reality of the game and made in much more "believable" manner for me to accept. Idea of hordes of human workers on capsuleer's ships might look interesting at first glance but in fact it's infested with unanswered questions, inconsistencies and logical flaws.

Also: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1351966

Originally by: Jint Hikaru
Our ships have windows.

Think about it...


They shouldn't. Why do we need so many windows? Most of them are combat ships after all, not tourist cruisers.

Ressiv
Massive PVPness
Posted - 2010.07.23 08:55:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Ressiv on 23/07/2010 08:55:35
Originally by: Y Berion
stuff


Answer me how you find these believable:

- top speed limit on spaceships
- no inertia
- km's long ships turn on a dime
- collision model
- gravity ? whuts that ?
- Most ships would break into pieces with how they are designed, the second you engage your engines
- <endless list continues>

Also, nice to point me to a previous topic, with 6 pages of the same content as is being discussed here ... any relevant post in mind, or are you just pointing out this has been covered already ?

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2010.07.23 09:40:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
and simultanously believe the current price of NPC trade goods is realistic


Who said the price you pay is equal to the actual goods?
The way I see it, most of the price is the containers with that planck thingies. And you get the container price back when you sell it. The price of the actual good is low.

Same as when you buy a bottle of water. You pay for the bottle, and get the money back when you return the empty one. The price of the actual good is much lower than what you payed for.

Graelyn
Amarr
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2010.07.23 10:10:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: foksieloy
Who said the price you pay is equal to the actual goods?
The way I see it, most of the price is the containers with that planck thingies. And you get the container price back when you sell it. The price of the actual good is low.



That's actually quite brilliant. Cool

Dasola
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.23 10:39:00 - [40]
 

actyally i dont think you want that crew really there. Meaning in face of suicide mission, dont you think that crew would raise mutiny and take over that ship to save their lifes?

Or they might object to idea of going to wormhole (2 mil jumps from home all of sudden).

Come to think of it, theyre pretty dump. when ship is dmaaged, crew just sits there doing nothing. yeah let that atmosheric presure vent to space. Dont even thing about that you could actually fix that hole in bulkhead.

Y Berion
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.23 11:00:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Ressiv


Answer me how you find these believable:

- top speed limit on spaceships
- no inertia
- km's long ships turn on a dime
- collision model
- gravity ? whuts that ?
- Most ships would break into pieces with how they are designed, the second you engage your engines
- <endless list continues>

Also, nice to point me to a previous topic, with 6 pages of the same content as is being discussed here ... any relevant post in mind, or are you just pointing out this has been covered already ?


See, things you've mentioned are directly affecting core gameplay, so the way they were implemented (or not) can be justified by two simple factors: technical limitations and overall playability. Human crews are different and certainly less complicated story - they exist only in RP department. Apparently, we have them but we can also think that there is no any other human being on ships except us pod pilots, and nothing is really changing regarding the gameplay. One way or another, it doesn't matter: it's all about how YOU see it and what YOU think is more logical. My oppinion is already known: human crews on capsuleers ships just don't fit very well.

Btw I've linked that thread just in case if you or someone else missed it because it was pretty interesting... I had no particular post in my mind.

Peter XZ
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.23 11:07:00 - [42]
 

OK, I'm about to solve this issue once and for all; your ship is actually just bunch of pixels and there's no-one inside,

WOW, I think I just saved people waffling on for another 6 pages on this silly topic LOLOLOL

Zaerlorth Maelkor
The Maverick Navy
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.07.23 11:12:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Zeredek

I recommend reading this.


I have already read this. It jars my suspension of disbelief. I cannot get 6000 people into my Bestower, but they hapiily sit inside a packaged battleship waiting for me to unpack it? In some kind of suspended animation?




I'm not disagreeing with you on the overall subject, but the 6000 figure is for a npc battleship, a capsuleer greatly reduces the need for crew on his ships. By what factor? Who knows, nothing stated by CCP on that account as far as I know, so why not make it factor 100! So you'll only need 60 crew on a BS and something like 10 on a cruiser.

King Gore
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2010.07.23 11:21:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Zeredek

I recommend reading this.


I'm never happy


Thanks for the EvE Chronicles link. Good read.

Arkios Odymei
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.23 13:47:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Zaerlorth Maelkor
I'm not disagreeing with you on the overall subject, but the 6000 figure is for a npc battleship, a capsuleer greatly reduces the need for crew on his ships. By what factor? Who knows, nothing stated by CCP on that account as far as I know, so why not make it factor 100! So you'll only need 60 crew on a BS and something like 10 on a cruiser.


From "The Jovian Wetgrave" short story on this page:
Quote:
"But how can a single man control a whole ship?" Ouriye pressed.
"Thank you, captain, I was coming to that. As I said, the captain acts as the central unit in a highly advanced computer. This role allows him to access and evaluate data at extreme pace. He can easily handle the jobs it takes 5 or 10 people to do normally. It also makes him a better commander, he has better understanding and awareness of his environment and he's not boggled down by tedious crew management issues and frequent communication breakdowns are now history." Anu finished, looking over the faces of the thoughtful Caldari standing before him.


Right there, it stated that the Capsule reduces the required number of crew by 5 to 10 people. Since the pod is controlling all commands, we can assume that it replaces the normal ship's command structure, aka the officers of the Bridge Crew.

The rest are all still there.


As for why they aren't included as a major part in the game itself? Simple: ITS A GAME. What the crew are supposed to do doesn't need to be micromanaged by the player, as they are supposed to be trained crew who do the jobs they are supposed to do on board the ship. For the sake of having a simple easily playable game, they have made the crew merely a background RP part of Eve (We already have High, Medium, Low, Rig, and Subsystem slots on ships, do we really need crew slots too? and do you really want to have to remember whether or not you paid your monthly upkeep costs on the dozens of ships that you own that are spread across the star cluster? Eve already has to many things that are tedious and bordering on "work" instead of fun. Remember: IT IS A GAME! It is meant to be fun before anything else!)

Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2010.07.23 14:03:00 - [46]
 

I think what the OP is trying to do is say..."HEY CCP, I HAVE ANOTHER FEATURE YOU CAN ADD THAT WONT WORK EITHER...over here...over here!"*waves arms up and down*


...no new features, fix whats already in the game and broken.



Monistat Seven
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.23 14:30:00 - [47]
 

No the OP (me) simply states...

The fiction is out of phase with the game. Fix it by picking one, choose wisely.

Actually, I'm all ok in my royal highness state to simply fly around in the most highly advanced robotic ship extension of my being. But the reason this keeps coming up is that the fiction is broken, or the game is not representative. It actually took me a while to get used to the idea of a solo-piloted battleship, but now I'm ok.

I did not read the fiction then play the game; I played the game, and THEN became interested in the fiction. The more I read, the more disenchanted I was in the backstory regarding the crews. I enjoyed the YouTube "ClearSkys" but again, not representative.

There seems to be a blowback on the POD concept that people just can't get their heads around. It could be fixed by the writers of the fiction *OR* it could be fixed by making actionable game mechanics.

Pick one, choose wisely.


Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2010.07.23 14:55:00 - [48]
 

Play eVe...or play Hello Kitty online, pick one.

hint: Hello Kitty doesn't have any crew to worry about.



Zofe Stormcaller
B4D W0LF
B4D W01F
Posted - 2010.07.23 15:27:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Syn Callibri
Play eVe...or play Hello Kitty online, pick one.

hint: Hello Kitty doesn't have any crew to worry about.





What about the Hello Kitty kestrel?

Monistat Seven
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.23 15:43:00 - [50]
 

LOL

Hello Kitty FTW!

Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2010.07.23 15:55:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Zofe Stormcaller
Originally by: Syn Callibri
Play eVe...or play Hello Kitty online, pick one.

hint: Hello Kitty doesn't have any crew to worry about.





What about the Hello Kitty kestrel?


LOL...your bad! Wink

Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
Posted - 2010.07.23 16:05:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Mithfindel on 23/07/2010 16:08:00
I fully support that the requirement of separately-hired crew is added to the game.

There you go, try to leave Jita 4-4 when trained crewmembers spawn every once in a while and there's a few scores of other players waiting to get crew to their ships, too. And your Raven still has 3,772 crewmembers to go until it can undock. Also, they mutiny and steal the ship if you don't pay their wages. If you happen to be in that ship, you're podkilled. Better save some spare change if you go on a vacation while playing.

(Btw, uranium is not found in any temperate planets. That's right, none of them has any uranium - or at least no uranium that could be commercially utilized.)

Now, the question would be that in the relating fiction, what is the role of the crew? Clearly it does not matter to the most capsuleers - including several capsuleers who have started to believe that they do not even have any crew - but what could it matter to those few who care?

To be a bit more serious about game mechanics, I wouldn't have minded having the rig slots used for crew, with no crew units installed standing for no or a skeleton crew. Thus by hiring a real crew (which would leave or need to be payed for contract extension after their tour was over) you could get some bonuses. The salvage mechanic would have been ok, since you could have added crewmembers in the salvage (weapon systems operators, engineers, janitors etc.) along with crew module parts (missile control desk, reactor monitoring station, utility closet). Of course, to escape the logical loop, this would require that crew was also available at other sources than rescued from blown-up hulls, the greatest source of course being planets.

And yes, the current rig system would also adapt to "different-sized" crews, as you'd have small, medium and large squads of crew, corresponding roughly to individual/tens of crewmembers, hundreds of crewmembers and thousands of crewmembers for frigates, cruisers and battleships. The initial cost could be a bit higher (unless you recruited crew from your own planetary colonies) and if the crew stayed alive to the contract extension it could be cheaper (since you've displayed the ability not to get blown up).

Y Berion
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.23 16:05:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Arkios Odymei
For the sake of having a simple easily playable game, they have made the crew merely a background RP part of Eve (We already have High, Medium, Low, Rig, and Subsystem slots on ships, do we really need crew slots too? and do you really want to have to remember whether or not you paid your monthly upkeep costs on the dozens of ships that you own that are spread across the star cluster? Eve already has to many things that are tedious and bordering on "work" instead of fun. Remember: IT IS A GAME! It is meant to be fun before anything else!)


But I like complicated games, complexity is major part of the fun Sad

Anyway. Human crew as another factor we must take care of (something like you described PLUS effects of experience, morale, fatigue...) could be a great addition. That, or CCP should just forget whole idea about crews on capsuleers ships.

Zeredek
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.07.23 16:42:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Y Berion


I really think you should be silent now.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.23 16:46:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Ressiv
Originally by: Merdaneth
To try an imagine crew requires one to come up with all kinds of odd reasoning like you do here


Eh ... no ... it requires one to accept the backstory. Issues with the backstory's touch with reality are a laughable joke ... you're playing a game which has no touch with reality in most aspects of it.


Eh.... no.... You see me talking about reality anywhere? I don't even believe in 'reality'. I do believe in internal consistency. The whole ´crew´ background story currently has plot holes the size of small moons. I don´t like it.

If the backstory says that a stargate jump requires 10 minutes, then I'm not going to invent all kinds of convoluted arguments just to make the backstory fit the in-game reality. At this point the in-game reality supports no or few crew better than crew. You don't need convoluted arguments to justify few or no-crew situations.


Ehranavaar
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.23 16:49:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth

I also wouldn't believe Amarr ships are green with pink even if the fiction said they were in 10 different articles.


fortunately your belief or lack thereof is irrelevant to the facts of the situation.

Zeredek
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.07.23 16:50:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth


You should also be silent now.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.23 16:53:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: foksieloy
Originally by: Merdaneth
and simultanously believe the current price of NPC trade goods is realistic


Who said the price you pay is equal to the actual goods?
The way I see it, most of the price is the containers with that planck thingies. And you get the container price back when you sell it. The price of the actual good is low.

Same as when you buy a bottle of water. You pay for the bottle, and get the money back when you return the empty one. The price of the actual good is much lower than what you payed for.


So, the difference in price between two different good is explained largely by the difference in price between their containers according to you? Say, the difference between water and spiced wine is that the plank containers of spiced wine are actually a lot more expensive?

If all regular trade good price is determined largely by the price of their containers, then price difference between those goods would be minimal. If water costs 60 isk per unit, and 59 isk is the cost of the container, and 1 isk due to the price of the water, than spiced wine would be something like 5 isk, and a container spiced wine would be 64 isk?

You argument just isn't internally consistent. The more logical approach would be to assume that the good are priced differently because there is an actual difference in the value of the goods. The plank container story is just a nice attempt to cover up other internal consistencies.

Arkios Odymei
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.23 17:02:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Arkios Odymei on 23/07/2010 17:07:11
Edited by: Arkios Odymei on 23/07/2010 17:02:48
Originally by: Merdaneth
If all regular trade good price is determined largely by the price of their containers, then price difference between those goods would be minimal. If water costs 60 isk per unit, and 59 isk is the cost of the container, and 1 isk due to the price of the water, than spiced wine would be something like 5 isk, and a container spiced wine would be 64 isk?


The funny thing about a free market like the one in Eve, is that the price of anything may have absolutely nothing to do with its actual "value". The price is merely a reflection of supply vs demand.

A real life example: a US penny from 1943 (officially valued at 1 cent, duh its a penny) was purchased at auction for $60,000, due to its scarcity of supply and the demand of collectors.

I'm not saying that in-game items like water and spiced wine are collectors items, but the same principles can hold true if you factor in a little bit of in-game role playing, maybe something along the lines of: They are relatively scarce or expensive due to the fact that these things must be rocketed into or manufactured in space, hence them being available for purchase at space stations.

Farrellus Cameron
Sturmgrenadier Inc
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.07.23 17:15:00 - [60]
 

My understanding is that if you zoom in on a fighter drone you can see the crew in the cockpit.


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