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Stuart Price
Caldari
FLA5HY RED
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2010.07.26 22:37:00 - [31]
 

The only people who get actually laughed at on kb's are those with stupid fits or those who took stupid risks. Neither of those things have any relation at all to skillpoints.

Making isk at a massive rate requires some specialisation into the required areas - not broad crosstraining and getting every skill to 5. You can get an isk-grinding character up and running pretty damn fast, everything after that is fine tuning if you keep down the same path.

In the mean time you could always try to learn some actual skills (and I say that in my most non-condescending voice, which is unusual) like how to fly manually, how each weapon system actually works (and therefore how to optimise performance - having 20mill gunnery SP doesn't really help you hit a close orbiting Dramiel with 1400mm Howitzers...).

You could try learning tactics and nomenclature for different ships and modules so that when you see one in space, you can have an educated guess as to how it might be fitted and how it might perform; compare it to your own ship's fitting and how you fly it.

You could learn the local faces, individuals, corps, alliances etc. Who works with who, who's an easy target and who you should avoid. Who honours 1v1's and who cyno's supercaps on anything that locks them. You could learn the area you're operating in, which systems are dangerous and why, which systems you could make some money in etc.

You could learn all that. Or you could whine a bit.

Yeah I know, easy for me to say as an '04 vet with loads of SP. Sure, it does help ('help', not 'cause instant victory'), since I can fly loads of different, mostly shiny things with loads of different, mostly shiny modules but if I'm good at what I do it's because I bothered to learn everything I just listed. Sometimes really, really well.

Any 'pro' will have as many stories of how he got torn to bits by a far younger player as of winning against insane odds. Plenty of the 'younger' guys I fly with have become very competent players - because they bothered to learn.

Msc Berzerk
Posted - 2010.07.27 12:57:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: foksieloy
Except in high end EvE play you can loose tens of billions of ISK and years of work.
In high end WoW gameplay you loose 15 minutes.

TOTALLY comparable.


And im sure you have never played highend arena in wow, have you? Highend wow arena (youknow the stuff they stream over the internet, kinda) one match can ruin about 2-3 months of hard work (and i mean hard, as in 5 hours a day) for 5 people.

Im not saying the loss is bigger, just saying that unless you have played wow to to edge, you cant realy comment. Tbh i found wow required more skills than eve, at least as in skills in what to do at a certain time and that kinda ****, in wow you have about 40 buttons you regulary use plus an eviroment you actualy have to care about (only time this happens in eve is when you gotta dodge the big bad asteroid so you dont lose transversal and still you can shoot someone through the asteroid, in wow you cant shoot through stuff), eve is more strategic and long term, earning gold in wow is **** easy, but in eve you can be smart and earn alot. Mostly i like eve because it gives you more room for inovative smart stuff, like the 10 thoraxes alliance tournament game, that kinda stuff doesnt happen in WoW, this doesnt make WoW skilless tho.

knentil
Posted - 2010.07.27 19:21:00 - [33]
 

In the mean time? Get owned on Starcraft 2.

Zyress
Posted - 2010.07.27 20:30:00 - [34]
 

pick a smaller ship, say a frigate, train only skills relevant to its weapon and tanking system, mods you use on it and command skills, you can max out the skills you need for a frigate in much less than a year You'll be capable of flying it as well as anyone in the game, all their extra skillpoints won't let them do a thing you can't in an equivalent ship (as long as you don't step out of a frigate role in battle you will be as good as you can be, pick a cruiser, preferably the same race weapon system type and tanking type , again train only skills needed to improve its performance and the performance of the modules you use, shouldn't take as long as the frigate for most things but Cruiser V can be a bear, anyway you get the idea, its a progression, skills from the previous hull apply on the next hull as long as you stay in the same general ship types.

Philip Flatline
Posted - 2010.07.28 07:05:00 - [35]
 

So, dear mr. OP why do you think you're entitled to play with the big boys? Maybe you're not where you should be.

As with any game, before you can compete with longer standing players it takes time. In the mean time, gang up on them. Eve is a multiplayer game, not solo. What you might not be able to do on your own you can do with friends.

Regis Nex
Posted - 2010.07.28 13:10:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Regis Nex on 28/07/2010 13:11:15
When EVEMON was invented.
People started planning BIG ships instantly.
Thus, the OP's thread.

Problem this created was the natural game progression from the use of easily trainable ships and starting skills is skipped, just trained(playtimewise).
They chuck in big expensive ships which takes longer to train skipping everything below it. When they can skill up and enjoy the game as their character progress.

Yes itll take you that long before your BIG shinny e-pheen ship.

But if you play like the rest of us.
Start small, learn how to play gradually. Youll be ready for your dream ship before you know it. Dont rush things, cause eve cant be rushed. Can't wait? Other games available for you.

But how can I compete with the other pilots older than me?
Specialize!

If you still insist on the evemon way and whinge about it. Ill bet my man-gonads, you'll still suck and whinge more even with your dream ship. More pirate fodder though Razz





Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.28 14:42:00 - [37]
 

It is true that for every subcapital ship, it takes longer to fully learn to fly it than it takes for your character to fully skill for it.

(It may be true for capitals as well)

Surol
Posted - 2010.07.29 05:02:00 - [38]
 

I just started stepping into T2 ships and that was only for SB roams. Stick to T1 and just build support skills all the fancy ships in the game are not worth it. My BC was putting out almost as much dps as my friends command ship and he has over 20m more sp then me. specialise for combat and fly cheap.

Barrak
Caldari
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2010.07.29 09:30:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Barrak on 29/07/2010 09:44:13
Originally by: Brannor McThife
Originally by: Durararagi
Edited by: Durararagi on 26/07/2010 02:39:10
Most are characters with less than optimized skills that can't make over 20m/hr and none of them could survive without prealignment or megablobz upon meeting a lololz nanogang in anything they fly.

a) Why do you need to make 20m/hr?
b) You don't have to go to Nullsec to have fun. Stop equating money and fun.

I'm tempted to start a new alt and hit lowsec from day 1 and make him/her self sufficient.
You know what more SP/money brings you? The same issues as in RL. You're scared to lose it (money) and you get too many (expensive) options to fly. Start early and start cheap. Best way to learn and have fun.

-G


Outstanding reply Sir. I used to make this connection. Now I actualy have tons more fun in ships that cost a fraction of the price. Sure..... sometimes I still bring out the shineys.... but who doesn't?


Sometimes I wonder why people bother coming to the forums...... and I am not refering to the new guys.

How is it that all of you (not everyone) that continualy gripe at new players (who do not have a greater understanding of the game) continue to do so?

Don't you get it, this is where they come to learn the game, this is where they get advice from supposed 'players with experience'......... that means you! and what do they get? nothing but 'yeah... leave, can I have your stuff'.... my god thats a funny one, I've not heard that before.

I mean, come on. Quit the crap and either A) don't reply or B)offer some of your damned experience to them.

Don't try and pretend that you didn't go through this at some stage (I know not all of you would have), just help some people for once instead of posting crap!

To the OP. The quote that I have listed here is spot on and so are many of the 'constructive' comments. Skill points are not much use unless they are in the correct places........ have you ever wondered why so many chatacter skill websites show how many skills you have at level 5? That is not to say that all skills must be at level 5, however when someone has a lot of them, you 'generaly' know they are getting the most out of the their chatacter! Very few people train skills to level 5 just for the 'fun' of it.

Find yourself a decent PvP corp and have some fun in hisec and whilst you are doing this you will A) Learn something about PvP and B) It will give you time to fine tune some skills - I don't mean tons of more random stuff... sadly I mean the boring two week skills that realyl make a difference.

Once you start using your skills correctly, you will WANT to eek that little more out of them and the only way to do that is to focus down on them.

I don't want to turn this into a come to RvB, but I have recently joined them and am loving it. I am a well skilled pilot, but my PvP is not good so I am learning stuff here daily. That said, there are pilots here with just 2-3 mill SP!

Barrak

Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.01 09:27:00 - [40]
 

Posting in a RvB Recruitment Thread.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2010.08.03 14:28:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Rashmika Clavain
Posting in a RvB Recruitment Thread.


Why is it every time someone mentions RVB the peanut gallery has to chime in with this kind of nonsense?

On the original topic, Don't worry about skill points. They come with time and there is only so much you can do to accelerate it (short of buying a character).

But as was pointed out it's not like one can get into an end game raiding guild and geared up decently in those other games in less than a year.

I was an end game raider in EQ it would take months to get a good gear set from a new expansion and you couldn't do any of it afk. Oh and you'd better have a decent gear set to start with or we were going to make fun of you and send you back to the minor leagues. Once you got in you had to make the raids save the DKP then hope that the item you want drops and that no one with more DKP wanted it.

Unlike EVE which if you stick around long enough you'll be able to get into that Titan should you so desire. And anyone can do it. In the other MMO's that everyone likes to dog out and compare to in these conversations only a small percentage of the gaming population will ever get into the best gear while it's still current. The vast majority run around in group/solo attainable crap and drool over the end game raiders drop links.

In EVE anyone can buy anything, Want a Titan buy a character who can fly one then buy the Titan.

Want a Dramiel? Train Gal and Minmatar frig and take a trip to Jita.

The only real difference between EVE and those other games is that EVE tends to reward sustained effort while in most MMO's one is rewarded for intensity of effort.

Since you can't accelerate your skill advancement it creates more incentive to enjoy the ride.

In other MMO's everyone rushes to max level then figures out they only have a limited amount of things to do and missed out on most of the content.

In EVE on the other hand, since your going to be waiting 2 years to fly that Titan you've got time to tramp around and try out different things.

You can do the mission runner thing or run plex's or do exploration or pirate in low sec, You can ninja salvage and Suicide gank, you can build up an industrial empire or become a tycoon on the markets.

The biggest problem I've found in EVE isn't a lack of skill points to do things but a lack of sufficient free time to try all the things my character can already do that I want to try out.

The lack of a level grind also helps to keep mudflation in check. Since there isn't really an endgame and characters can be effective at all skill levels there is no need to release new tougher content every 6 months to feed the hungry horde of min-maxing power gamers.

Since the upper level of character power doesn't bump up every 6 months there is less need to dumb down the game so newer players don't face a longer and longer level grind with each expansion just so they can join the bulk of the player population.

In EVE a 1 million SP character can fly with a 100mil SP character and actually offer a meaningful contribution to the efforts. In level based MMOs a 5th level character could contribute nothing grouped with a top leveled character.

The truth is they might as well start people out at max level in those game after they've been out a couple years since the lower levels are just a hurdle to clear to get to the real game.

In EVE every ship counts the 1 mil SP newb can get the tackle for that cool kill that would gotten away otherwise. 10 of them can take out the 100mil sp character if they can catch them with their pants down.

Or that 1 mil SP newb can play the market and make a fortune and buy a character with the skills they want.

You won't see that in other games.

So stop worrying about the destination and enjoy the journey.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.08.03 14:51:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore
Since you can't accelerate your skill advancement it creates more incentive to enjoy the ride.

In other MMO's everyone rushes to max level then figures out they only have a limited amount of things to do and missed out on most of the content.

[]

So stop worrying about the destination and enjoy the journey.
This is really an important observation, and one that I think throw a lot of people of who come from other games.

In most games, you play to advance your character.
In EVE, you play as you advance your character.

It might not sound like that big a difference, but in actuality, it's huge. EVE isn't a game of character advancement it's a game of internet spaceships, and it just so happens that your character advances in ability as you play that game. Yes, you could play it the way those other games play, and make the character building take centre stage, but then you're missing out on the actual content EVE provides. You're effectively skipping 99% of the game in order to concentrate on something the game has been specifically designed to keep you from concentrating on because it is so unimportant for the gameplay.

In time, you'll have more SP. Until then, play the actual game you might actually find it entertaining.

Flapkonijn
Diamonds and Guns
Posted - 2010.08.04 12:09:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Flapkonijn on 04/08/2010 12:37:08
Edited by: Flapkonijn on 04/08/2010 12:34:25

Originally by: Skex Relbore
Originally by: Rashmika Clavain
Posting in a RvB Recruitment Thread.


The biggest problem I've found in EVE isn't a lack of skill points to do things but a lack of sufficient free time to try all the things my character can already do that I want to try out.


^^This !^^

I think i can say i am a old player i've crossed 6 years and i still don't have enough time to do stuff.
In the first 6 months in game i trained basic mining skills and mined with a banthem for 6 hours a day (Sad i know :-) Then i switched to missions for a while ect... ect...
ALSO remember in this time you had 3 ships classes Frig, Cruiser, BS no T2 and no Spec ships.
If you want to do only 1 thing in eve and money is top issue then you'll be bored after a while.
It's easy to make 5 billion in a month or 2 and then blow it on a few elite fitted ships and lose it.
BUT if you don't enjoy making the isk and then losing ships in something you like then i would not even bother playing it or you'll end of not liking the game.

And skillpoints don't mean that much im 100mil+ skillpoint toon i just started going into PVP now and i suck against 2 - 5 Mil SPS chars. Wink (I Still enjoy learning PVP though)

That was my rant...

Fly Safe!

Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
Halinallen veroparatiisi
Inglorious Carebears
Posted - 2010.08.04 12:47:00 - [44]
 

You don't need to be on the same level to compete. There so many podpilots that are so utterly drunk while playing that they get a -20mil sp penalty :) A friend of mine got whacked with a T1 rubbish noob frigate (and it was a noob) because he wasn so drunk that he almost passed out. He did all the mistakes one could make. Lolfail if I've ever seen one :D

Riho
Gallente
Drop of Blood
Posted - 2010.08.04 13:20:00 - [45]
 

i have over 60m sp.

i can fly:

marauders(gallente, amarr)
recons(gallente, amarr, minmatar)
hacs
command ships
+ all the other t1 ships with t2 fits.

but 90% of the time i fly a t2 fit t1 Battlecruiser :P

so whats good about all the skills iv trained.... choise i guess.

it doesnt take long to train a BC skills close to my lvl (i have pretty much maxed em all out)... only thing is i have few very longs at 5 while someone has them at 4... and with that you can allready beat me if you play it right.

what i want to say is you can train a ship quite fast and be good at it... you dont need to wait 2 years to train all the ships you want and then start playing.

Verrenici
Posted - 2010.08.04 18:44:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Msc Berzerk

And im sure you have never played highend arena in wow, have you? Highend wow arena (youknow the stuff they stream over the internet, kinda) one match can ruin about 2-3 months of hard work (and i mean hard, as in 5 hours a day) for 5 people.



Skill doesn't enter the WoW equation, so they lost (wasted, rather) those 2-3 months regardless of whether they won or lost.

'High-end wow arena'. The Dane Cook of competitive gaming *obscure Archer reference*.

Dramis
Posted - 2010.08.05 11:21:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Dramis on 05/08/2010 11:20:50
As posted elsewhere, in response to the usual 'omg, I can't make ISK with a new char'. My brother started a brand new account last year and after 11 weeks, with no scamming or assistance, he'd made 7 billion ISK.

You don't need 2 years of skills to make ISK in this game, you just need a brain that can think for itself and a backside that doesn't need somebody else to wipe it for you.

Demolishar
Posted - 2010.08.05 12:58:00 - [48]
 

Just unsub. You'll take 2 years to become your best, and at the end of those two years you'll find out your best isn't good enough.

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.05 21:25:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 23/07/2010 10:45:04

Originally by: Durararagi
I've been doing some Evemon/EFT planning, and I realized that its gonna take me two years before I'm making "Real money" of 100m/hr while not being laughed by the entire universe when I show up on a KB.

So what should I do in the mean time?


I fully agree with you!! I have the same problem too! I have been playing for 5 years now and I still cant compete with Dr. Caymus and the rest of the ilk who has me beaten! Crying or Very sadCrying or Very sadCrying or Very sadI try and try and try! But when I have earned 85 million SP Caymus got 155 million! And when i get 100 million he will have 170 million! Its unfair! I simply cant compete with them! So I hope CCP will do something about it so I can claim his position! Evil or Very MadEvil or Very Mad

What you can do while you waiting? Ship hangar spinning is a good pastime activity I have heard.


ugh




I thought they told you in rookie camp not to expunge the secrets to those that are unworthy Evil or Very Mad


Slade

Irae Ragwan
Posted - 2010.08.05 21:53:00 - [50]
 

Train battlecruiser, support, navigation, and weapon skills to V. You'll have access to the best cost/effectivness ships in the game and will be welcomed anywhere you want to pvp. You can further specialize, but chances are you'll be bored soon. BC's give you a HUGE variety of effective fits, uses, and playstyles. They can run missions, station camp, gatecamp, be effective parts of a large fleet, small gang, you name it: they can do it.

Granted, they aren't the cheapest ships in the game, and most pvp'ers will advise you to fly frigates for a long time because of their cost, but honestly if you want to be self-sufficient you'll need at least a bc hull that can run level 3 misisons unless you fancy being a ninja salvager (personally that bores me even more than mission running and ratting).

TLDR: The answer to newb frustration is battlecruisers. They're easy to get started with, incredibly versatile, dangerous in pvp, and not horribly expensive to replace.

phantomshura
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.06 05:43:00 - [51]
 

so you want to reach the endgame in 2 days?... do you start at max lv making tonsd of gold in wow?

Widemouth Deepthroat
Posted - 2010.08.08 17:30:00 - [52]
 

Sell your greasy ringhole and then buy some gtc with the profits. Trade them for isk and buy a character. Otherwise watch **** for 750 days while doing high sec missions till your ready for pvp.

Xearal
Minmatar
SOL Industries
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.08 18:03:00 - [53]
 

Defintily agreeing with the 'old crowd' that are talking about the newb helping out in a big fight. Been there.. done that.

A few months ago, my alliance had a war in a wormhole with another corp invading it.
We lost the war, but that's not the point.
The point is.. between the 30 odd battleships and whatnot on each side. there was a single rifter flying.
That rifter was me.
And it was responsible for being able to kill 3 battleships when we got the drop on a couple of them.

How? I was the tackler. I flew around with an MWD on, like mad, avoiding drones and hoping not to die before they got him, getting some RR from a couple of friendly drones around me.
Being that pain in the ass to those battleships, tackle, web, vamp drain, all the little evil things you can do that seriously annoy enemy battleships.

Because of me, those 3 battleships could not warp out, without me, they would have, and all that firepower on our big ships pounding them would have been wasted. So while I didn't do the big baboom, I was a key part in a chain that led to the destruction of those three battleships. All with a T1 frigate, with T1 fittings, not even good meta stuff.

That ship was a true minmatar ship, I put it together from junk I had collected doing Level 1 and Level 2 missions. At most, that ship cost about 2 million ISK. and that is mostly because I had some 'shiny' modules to spare, aka Meta 1, meta 2 modules, where I was out of the regular Meta 0 ones. ( sold those all on the market I think, or reprocessed them for minerals ).

Did I die in that fight? Yes.. when we engaged a Loki, he had the brains to kill me FIRST, so yes, I died horribly that day. Double horribly because while those 3 battleships were just 'enemies' to me, that loki pilot was someone I met before, and exchanged fire with. an experienced pirate, who got the better of me on several occasions, though it was a close call every time. I REALLY wanted him DEAD, alas, next time, I will get him for sure.. he's on my hitlist, and when I meet him on the field of battle, he will feel the wrath of my GUNS.

You hear me, E6O5? I'M GUNNING FOR YOU! I will fill my aquarium with the goo from your POD!
I will use your implants for artistic wall decorations, and I will sell your ship to the junkyard, becuase once I'm through with you, thats where it will belong!






Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.08.08 18:33:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Widemouth Deepthroat
Otherwise watch **** for 750 the rest of your days while doing high sec missions till your because you will never be ready for pvp.
Fix'd.


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