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Veliria
Posted - 2010.07.20 20:39:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Veliria on 20/07/2010 20:40:07
As nice as my Tengu is for Angels and Guristas, when it comes to drones and Sansha/Blood I need a better ship.
As a Golem is still a bit far away and I'd like something other than the run of the mill CNR, I went for the Nightmare.

Since Sansha love to spam TDs I'm bringing a few Tracking Enhancers so that I can still hit something.
I've gone for Pulses at the moment, with roughly 64km optimal and 16km falloff with Scorch, which is more than a Torp Golem can reach.

[Nightmare, Pulses]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Domination 100MN Afterburner
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Photon Scattering Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Energy Locus Coordinator I
Large Energy Locus Coordinator I
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II

Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

Afterburner is there to manage transversal and it's also nice to be able to kite when needed and to burn a little faster to the accel gate.
I know I could use Tachs, but I was wondering if Pulses with Scorch are better, if not alone for being able to do serious DPS to anything that gets close (or when I get warped to something close) and having excellent tracking.

Thoughts, suggestions?

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.20 20:44:00 - [2]
 

Sansha TDs are still old-style, they don't affect your falloff. So beams can be better if you know how to keep transversal low.

Veliria
Posted - 2010.07.20 20:51:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
Sansha TDs are still old-style, they don't affect your falloff. So beams can be better if you know how to keep transversal low.


Lasers don't have all that much fall-off though. Razz

Miriiah
Posted - 2010.07.20 20:56:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Miriiah on 20/07/2010 20:56:40
Not fitting Tachs on a Nightmare is a crimeCool

Also get a 4th HS, skip a therm hardner(they do more EM than therm and your EM resist is your lowest one) and add a TC, and use ccc rigs or 1 t2 burst + cap safeguard

Also don't need an AB, put another TC there

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.07.20 21:44:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Veliria
Thoughts, suggestions?

Fit faction Tachyons, typically Dark Blood/True Sansha drops ought to be much cheaper than IN Tachs. It'll save you some cap over the std T2 Tachs at the cost of PG, but that's not a big problem on this boat.

With the superior damage for faction crystals and MF optimal range > 50km, you really have little reason not to fit Tachyons ... for most of the times. There are missions where pulse trackings are desireable - close range missions with plenty of cruisers/elite cruisers or fast BS with low sig (aka Angels), but you can usually get away with Tachs for these almost as well.

As the poster above pointed out, the (Sansha TD not affecting) falloff is fairly critical in doing some damage when you're under heavy TD. Its effect on tracking can be somewhat compensated if you fit a TC (or two) and do manual alignment as necessary.

Lastly, your fit relies too heavily on cap boosters, the cap boosters will go poof in a very short time for extended battles. The NOS is less useful than you think, either fit a salvager, another tractor or a T2 autotargeter. For rigs, I'd fit the usual 2-3x CCC and 1-0x T2 Energy Elutriation respectively. Your Locus rigs is stacked to hell with TEs, not optimal unless you absolutely need the extra range.

Mike712
Posted - 2010.07.21 02:09:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Mike712 on 21/07/2010 02:11:50
Being able to use multifrequency at all ranges is usually better, use tachs, you'll kill most stuff before it gets anywhere near orbit distance so the superior tracking of pulses is wasted.

Also you don't really need 4 hardeners fit a tracking comp.

As Sturmwolke said you don't want to be relying on cap boosters to run your guns, I'd suggest 3 x CCC rigs if you can afford make one of them t2.

[Nightmare, Lv4 Nightmare]
Tracking Enhancer II
True Sansha Heat Sink
True Sansha Heat Sink
True Sansha Heat Sink
True Sansha Heat Sink

Domination 100MN Afterburner
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Photon Scattering Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam I
Auto Targeting System II

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Von Kapiche
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.21 05:06:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Von Kapiche on 21/07/2010 05:06:53
Originally by: Veliria
Originally by: Merdaneth
Sansha TDs are still old-style, they don't affect your falloff. So beams can be better if you know how to keep transversal low.


Lasers don't have all that much fall-off though. Razz


46km on my boat, that's surprisingly long. Also usually enough.

I run the fit above me, with a 2nd TC instead of the AB most of the time, and detail differences in the actual mods.

Veliria
Posted - 2010.07.21 12:16:00 - [8]
 

Isn't an Afteburner needed to dictate transversal?
Won't the rats move/orbit too fast without one? (or atleast the BCs)

Von Kapiche
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.21 12:31:00 - [9]
 

It will track and hit orbiting cruisers at 10km ( non TD, obviously ). There are very few times when I've had intrusive TD, and the only one I can think of that really ruins your day is Sansha Blockade. I use an AB when I have to get the stupid slow lump 50km to the next gate, if I'm shooting stuff I just swap scripts around & shoot it.

Veliria
Posted - 2010.08.06 21:18:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Von Kapiche
It will track and hit orbiting cruisers at 10km ( non TD, obviously ). There are very few times when I've had intrusive TD, and the only one I can think of that really ruins your day is Sansha Blockade. I use an AB when I have to get the stupid slow lump 50km to the next gate, if I'm shooting stuff I just swap scripts around & shoot it.


Still, I'd rather use an Afterburner to dictate transversal rather than to try and fight it.
Afterburner also helps with keeping some off the damage off by being out of range.

[Nightmare, Hm]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Capacitor Flux Coil II

Domination 100MN Afterburner
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Pith C-Type Photon Scattering Field
Pith C-Type Photon Scattering Field
Heat Dissipation Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Auto Targeting System II
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

It's just about stable firing just the guns and the hardeners.
Auto targeting is there for utility mostly letting me lock 10 targets.
Dishes out 1035 dps with implants and lvl 4/5 skills.
Not sure if it has enough tank on it but the AB should help with that.

vicror
Critical Density
Posted - 2010.08.06 23:00:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: vicror on 06/08/2010 23:02:04

Originally by: Mike712


[Nightmare, Lv4 Nightmare]
Tracking Enhancer II
True Sansha Heat Sink
True Sansha Heat Sink
True Sansha Heat Sink
True Sansha Heat Sink

Domination 100MN Afterburner
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Photon Scattering Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam I
Auto Targeting System II

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


This looks similar to my old Bad Dreams fit that I erased when I got ****ed at Mad.
If using t2 tachs instead of faction you save lots of cap fitting a t2 energy discharge rig to go with the 2x t1 ccc.
Also, with the sick range/dps of tachs fitting a second tc instead of ab or cap booster is best.
Overall this fit works great for killing sanshas/blood.

RentableMuffin
Posted - 2010.08.07 02:01:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Veliria
Originally by: Von Kapiche
It will track and hit orbiting cruisers at 10km ( non TD, obviously ). There are very few times when I've had intrusive TD, and the only one I can think of that really ruins your day is Sansha Blockade. I use an AB when I have to get the stupid slow lump 50km to the next gate, if I'm shooting stuff I just swap scripts around & shoot it.


Still, I'd rather use an Afterburner to dictate transversal rather than to try and fight it.
Afterburner also helps with keeping some off the damage off by being out of range.

[Nightmare, Hm]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Capacitor Flux Coil II

Domination 100MN Afterburner
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Pith C-Type Photon Scattering Field
Pith C-Type Photon Scattering Field
Heat Dissipation Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Auto Targeting System II
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

It's just about stable firing just the guns and the hardeners.
Auto targeting is there for utility mostly letting me lock 10 targets.
Dishes out 1035 dps with implants and lvl 4/5 skills.
Not sure if it has enough tank on it but the AB should help with that.


god no, just double tap and trans shouldn't be an issue. the ab is nice for burning to accel gates in the 2 or 3 missions where you need to move. and if you need to burn out of range to avoid damage you are doing it wrong

I use t2 tachs cuz I'm a dps *****, and well cap isn't really an issue.

Von Kapiche
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.07 04:56:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Von Kapiche on 07/08/2010 04:58:36
Originally by: Veliria

[Nightmare, Hm]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Capacitor Flux Coil II

Domination 100MN Afterburner
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Pith C-Type Photon Scattering Field
Pith C-Type Photon Scattering Field
Heat Dissipation Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Auto Targeting System II
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

It's just about stable firing just the guns and the hardeners.
Auto targeting is there for utility mostly letting me lock 10 targets.
Dishes out 1035 dps with implants and lvl 4/5 skills.
Not sure if it has enough tank on it but the AB should help with that.


That's one more hardener than I have. I hardly ever use my booster let alone the cap booster, it's usually one particular rat that will hurt significantly ( last one in Sansha Blockade is an example ). I would ditch the CFC & pop a booster if you're low on cap from shooting, stick a TE in there. You don't want to be totally dependent on cap boosters, but I doubt guns will cap you out that fast in an actual fight.

Ashira Twilight
Posted - 2010.08.07 10:27:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Ashira Twilight on 07/08/2010 10:37:23
Same advice as from the other thread, USE TACHYONS.

Lasers have pitiful falloff, true, but the falloff is pretty decent when you have a tracking computer and 1-2 tracking enhancers. With the nightmare's tracking bonus and switching scripts in the tracking computer, you can hit -most- cruisers that make it to their orbit range...though, you should do your best to hit them BEFORE they get that close. There are few missions where mega pulse is better than tachyons.

Tachyons are more efficient because of the superior range, but MY main reason for using them is because scorch sucks balls. Oh sure, against sansha/blood raiders scorch is pretty good...but you're going to be shoveling scorch into your cargohold. Mega pulse use up crystals much faster, and you'll be using scorch more than anything else.

I only use pulse for damsel, cargo delivery(and only because I start firing while I'm still moving, decent amount of bounties in that mission, though you could just keep using tachs and not bother with the cruisers), and that silly merc mission where you loot the reports from shadow.

I understand that you use a tengu for missions where the nightmare isn't all that good, but as long as you fit tachs, you're going to find that it's such an awesome ship that you CAN do non-drone/sansha/blood raider missions pretty fast. The thermal damage on multi allows you to hit most rats pretty hard.

I hate using it in the guristas missions, but I actually prefer using it to a CNR for AE.

Edit

Thought I'd mention a couple of other things, since some of my friends asked me about it...

USE navy crystals. The cycle time on tachs is great for them, the extra damage is worth way more than what you pay for the ammo. It takes quite a while to burn a cystal out. I did the math last year at some point, and they paid for themselves in 5-6 missions and they last a lot longer than that.

The other thing is, DON'T GROUP YOUR GUNS. Your volley damage per-gun is so great, that you can 3 gun(or maybe even 2 gun with a wrecking) a battlecruiser rat. I dual-box two tach boats, and even then I keep the guns UNGROUPED. It's a little more hassle for me, but worth it.

Vossten Vader
Posted - 2010.08.07 18:21:00 - [15]
 

You might want to consider Large Semiconductor Rigs.

They give you a slightly worse recharge-rate but you last a lot longer due to a tremendously huge capacitor.

Ashira Twilight
Posted - 2010.08.08 03:41:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Vossten Vader
You might want to consider Large Semiconductor Rigs.

They give you a slightly worse recharge-rate but you last a lot longer due to a tremendously huge capacitor.


That's what I use on my nightmare. I have a cap booster as well, but the rigs are handy for those times when I forgot to top off my charges. Not that I use cap boosters all THAT often.

For efficiency, I'd rather be using something other than cap rigs. The thing is, that the nightmare doesn't really NEED to do anything with it's rigs. with two tracking enhancers and a tracking computer, optimal/tracking rigs wouldn't make much sense. That and I like having that extra grid for mucking about with different fits.

Arazel Chainfire
The Awakened Armada
Apex United
Posted - 2010.08.08 04:59:00 - [17]
 

This is what I run my nightmares with:

Fit 1:
Highs
4 tach 2's
1 tractor beam
1 whatever (salvager or drone link augmentor usually)

Mids
1 large shield booster 2
3 hardener's
2 tracking computer 2's
1 cap recharger 2

Lows
3 heatsink 2
1 TE 2
1 cap power relay

Rigs
3 CCC

drones to taste. This fit when optimal scripts are in has a 46km range + 46km falloff with multifrequency - it outdamages any other ammo type out to 60km easily. And, when the optimal scripts of switched for tracking, it can hit orbiting angel BS's at 5km, while still having a 37km optimal. Tank is more than enough for all the missions that I've done, provided that you are paying attention, and having a 100km targeting range with max skills is always a good thing.

Fit 2:
Highs
4 tach 2's
1 tractor beam
1 whatever (salvager or drone link augmentor usually)

Mids
1 large shield booster 2
3 hardener's
1 tracking computer 2's
2 cap recharger 2

Lows
4 heatsink 2
1 cap power relay

Rigs
2 CCC
1 Energy Locus coordinator

Drones to taste. This fit is the older one that I use (personally, I like fit 1 better), and it does do better DPS than fit one. The downside is the optimal is only 42km, and falloff is only around 30km, so I end up switching to X-Ray past 55km. Cap is about the same with both ships, and tank is more than enough for all the missions that I run.

I actually have two characters, one in fit one and one in fit two, and generally run two separate missions at a time unless my agent takes a great dislike to one of my characters. Completion time between the two fits is pretty even, though the alt-tabbing can get a bit skitzofrenic at times. At the moment I just use t2 equipment, except for navy crystals. As for what it can complete... Mordus headhunters is surpisingly easy with either fit, and angel extra is a pushover (note, I haven't tried the bonus room), though fit one is a bit better for angel missions. Running both at once is also quite interesting too...

Hope this helps.

-Arazel

Tabitha Gnillort
Posted - 2010.08.08 07:38:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Tabitha Gnillort on 08/08/2010 08:30:46
I personally have found recharge mods to be a losing battle; the cap recharge on a Nightmare could be compared to a corpse doing laps in a tar pit. The only way you're going to get anything out of it is to electrocute the f^$k out of it and hope the whole thing doesn't go up in flames.
Inane analogies aside - here's what I currently use:

High:
Tachyon Beam Laser II
Tachyon Beam Laser II
Tachyon Beam Laser II
Tachyon Beam Laser II
Small Tractor Beam I
Drone Link Augmentor I

Mid:
Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Dread Guristas Shield Boost Amplifier
Dread Guristas Shield Boost Amplifier
Photon Scattering Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Tracking Computer II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II

Low:
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Tracking Enhancer II

Rigs:
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Large Core Defence Capacitor safeguard II
Large Core Defence Capacitor safeguard II

Drones:
5x Hammerhead II
5x Hobgoblin II

IN Multifrequency / IN X-Ray

Why those rigs and the pith booster? Basically because by using them you don't lose any real efficiency on level 4s and it's much easier to refit for PvP.
On an unrelated note, the second boost amp works better than another hardener against most any damage type on this fit.

Bigg Gun
Posted - 2010.08.08 23:17:00 - [19]
 

just a few notes:
IN tachyons (and you mostly wanna use tachyons for the ship) use 23(or so) less energy per shot than t2 so if price is not a problem might wanna use those.( you lose only a tiny bit of damage)
The NM tracks pretty good - 1 tracking enhancer might be all you need.
You could get cap stability or at least 10-20 mins of cap using Gist Large or pith medium booster - don't forget - the heavy bruisers best tank is gank

codemaster28
Caldari
Phobos Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.10 11:10:00 - [20]
 

[Nightmare, nightmare ganky tank]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System

Pith A-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Pith A-Type Photon Scattering Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Gist A-Type 100MN Afterburner
Dark Blood Heavy Capacitor Booster, Cap Booster 800
Gist A-Type Shield Boost Amplifier

Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Drone Link Augmentor I
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

1022 dps
tank is about 1231
easy switch to standard or longer range crystals to kill ships incoming, at long range you`ll still one shot frigs , couple of shots for cruisers and chews through battleships nicely. Cap stable ships are over rated. if you cant hit battlecruisers at close range with this setup due to tracking your doing something wrong, frigs at close range use light drones thats what they are there for.

Veliria
Posted - 2010.08.10 11:31:00 - [21]
 

Bit expensive that fit and the one I'm currently flying is doing very well.
Kept it cheap and went for an X-Type Large Shield Booster for now (370mil) and I'll upgrade to better stuff as I get more comfortable with the ship.
I'll probably swap it for a Pith C/B type XL as I noticed I rarely had to hit the cap booster anyway.

codemaster28
Caldari
Phobos Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.10 11:37:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Veliria
Bit expensive that fit and the one I'm currently flying is doing very well.
Kept it cheap and went for an X-Type Large Shield Booster for now (370mil) and I'll upgrade to better stuff as I get more comfortable with the ship.
I'll probably swap it for a Pith C/B type XL as I noticed I rarely had to hit the cap booster anyway.


Thats the ship im currently using, i know its abit on the expensive side but when you get spare isk coming in just upgrade the setup each time to improve your ship that way you`ll get more gank and more tank every upgrade.

Logical Chaos
The Ankou
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.08.10 12:17:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: codemaster28
Originally by: Veliria
Bit expensive that fit and the one I'm currently flying is doing very well.
Kept it cheap and went for an X-Type Large Shield Booster for now (370mil) and I'll upgrade to better stuff as I get more comfortable with the ship.
I'll probably swap it for a Pith C/B type XL as I noticed I rarely had to hit the cap booster anyway.


Thats the ship im currently using, i know its abit on the expensive side but when you get spare isk coming in just upgrade the setup each time to improve your ship that way you`ll get more gank and more tank every upgrade.


Until someone runs a locator. Seriously, this ship can easily stand a lot less tank since it ganks so fast :< 600 or 700dps is plenty tank.


 

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