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blankseplocked [Proposal]Capsule KM should list lost implants
 
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AboveAllElse
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2010.07.20 08:43:00 - [1]
 

I just want to see what implants people really have :P

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2010.07.20 13:09:00 - [2]
 

Look here.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.07.20 15:35:00 - [3]
 

It seems the evelopedia forgot to mention the most important effect this will have.

In order to stroke that all important epeen people will start trying to get more pods than ships. (pods will often be worth more than the ships) This shift from concern about killing ships to killing pods will hurt new players who need to have implants in order to try to get decent skills. So new players should not only avoid pvp due to lack of skills but they will suffer larger economic loses in pvp than older players.

I think this is one of the many reasons why this proposal is voted down by the players in assembly hall - at least every time I saw it players rejected the idea. It seems a CSM (who are mostly veteran players) had a thread they thought supported this idea - although the evelopedia doesn't give a link.

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2010.07.20 15:46:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Cearain
need to have implants in order to try to get decent skills.


What is the game you are playing?


OP: supported, this will give us better idea of the damage caused to the enemy. Another Rifter down? Meh, whatever. But look, the dude had 1 bil of pirate implants in his head! Twisted Evil

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.07.20 15:56:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Originally by: Cearain
need to have implants in order to try to get decent skills.


What is the game you are playing?


OP: supported, this will give us better idea of the damage caused to the enemy. Another Rifter down? Meh, whatever. But look, the dude had 1 bil of pirate implants in his head! Twisted Evil


I'm playing eve.

And your response on this, shows what I predict will likely occur. You will find many many more pods killed with attribute implants than with pirate implants.

Nestor Laurenitis
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2010.07.20 15:56:00 - [6]
 

Supported...

But I'd just like to confirm that this change will not make me want to kill pods more than ships. That argument is entirely incoherent. You need to kill the ships to get the pods, and why on earth wouldn't you want to kill pods regardless of implant disclosure?

Kill them all.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.07.20 16:02:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Nestor Laurenitis
Supported...

You need to kill the ships to get the pods, and why on earth wouldn't you want to kill pods regardless of implant disclosure?

Kill them all.


Actually you can kill pods before *all* the enemy ships are killed. Right now you would be best served by killing all the enemy ships before you start switching to pods. However, if implants are shown its much more likely that you would try to target pods before you target the next ship.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.20 17:39:00 - [8]
 

Only result is more e-peen + pirates dishonoring ransoms even more often -> less victims go to low sec -> pirates go whining for easier targets -> not in the mood for that, so against.

On similar note, remove killmails.

Rhaegor Stormborn
BURN EDEN
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.07.20 18:16:00 - [9]
 


Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
Posted - 2010.07.21 02:27:00 - [10]
 

Not supported.
Originally by: Furb Killer

On similar note, remove killmails.
^^
Also this.

Nestor Laurenitis
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2010.07.21 15:51:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Cearain
Actually you can kill pods before *all* the enemy ships are killed. Right now you would be best served by killing all the enemy ships before you start switching to pods. However, if implants are shown its much more likely that you would try to target pods before you target the next ship.


Why is that a problem?

I don't agree with your assertion that it will make pilots go after pods over viable combat ships, but I sure hope your assertion is true. If my gang is fighting your gang I'd prefer your gang mates lose their composure and go after pods during the fight rather than focusing your firepower on ships that are still shooting them.


Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.07.21 16:42:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Cearain
And your response on this, shows what I predict will likely occur. You will find many many more pods killed with attribute implants than with pirate implants.


Get jump clones. Use a clone without implants when you know you are going into a suicidal fight. Pretty standard procedure.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.07.21 21:20:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Cearain on 21/07/2010 21:22:09
I never really know when I will end up in a suicidal fight. If I did I guess jump clones would work well.


Beside the fact that it will further discourage people from going into pvp, I think the other disadvantage is that killing pods is not really “combat.” I mean it’s not like you say “wow how did you manage to bring down that pod in your rifter??” The answers will almost always go along the lines of “well he was in a pod and pods can’t shoot back.”


Really the most common 3 answers won’t really demonstrate much in the way of “combat skill” by the podding party:
1) He was in a bubble and couldn’t slow boat his pod out of the bubble in time.
2) He was in a pod and must have been new so didn’t realize he should start hitting warp to a distant celestial once he is in structure.
3) He must have experienced lag or some other technical glitch preventing him from warping.

Hence to the extent killboard stats supposedly are some indication of skill it would further skew them.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.07.21 21:45:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Nestor Laurenitis
Originally by: Cearain
Actually you can kill pods before *all* the enemy ships are killed. Right now you would be best served by killing all the enemy ships before you start switching to pods. However, if implants are shown its much more likely that you would try to target pods before you target the next ship.


Why is that a problem?

I don't agree with your assertion that it will make pilots go after pods over viable combat ships, but I sure hope your assertion is true. If my gang is fighting your gang I'd prefer your gang mates lose their composure and go after pods during the fight rather than focusing your firepower on ships that are still shooting them.



Right older players will think like you. They have many skills already trained up so no need to use expensive attribute implants. Go into a jump clone for 24 hours or so with a bare clone. You have no intention of flying a cladari dreadnaught, so Caldari dreadnaught 5 can wait. Meanwhile newer players are anxiously trying to finish getting t2 guns on that cruiser they are flying and aren’t too keen to have to wait a day with no implants if they want to pvp.

Even if veteran players use the attribute implants they have built up resources to replace them when they are lost so it’s not such a big deal – for them. But for a new player those plus 4s or even plus 3 implants probably cost many times more than their ship and mods.

Incentives to podding will hurt newer players much harder than veteran players. So to the extent you create additional incentives to go after pods you create disincentives for newer players to pvp. It’s that simple.

Goose99
Posted - 2010.07.22 03:22:00 - [15]
 

Not supported. I don't want ppl in fleet to go after useless pods to stroke their epeen instead of following orders and helping us win. You've got to be kidding me. Enough ppl bringing crappy ksing rokh fits as is. Those infantile killmail humpers happily add up to our losing so long as they get a few kills out of it. It'll make them even less disciplined. If you want epeen, go play a FPS twitch shooter or something.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.08.10 20:32:00 - [16]
 

The original wiki demonstrates that this was passed by the csm with no decent con arguments made. In this thread there seems to be just as many people who are posting against this idea as for it. And there has been precious little on how encouraging podkills (which this will no doubt do) is good for eve.

This issue is the main issue where I think the csms method of "weighing" player support failed. They gave us no way to tell them we think this idea stinks. So the 20% who listed this among their *20* items they want ccp to do will now appear to speak for everyone.

The original wiki claims that this will be a better measure of damage. I agree that this very limitted goal is accomplished to some extent.

However, I would point out that when we talk about the big isk pirate implants this can lead to some very skewed results. If I bought snakes 6 months ago for 1.5 billion and they now cost 3 billion. The killboard will not know what I paid for them. It might post 3 billion even though I never would have paid that much for them. The variations on the values of the pirate implants is quite a bit larger than the variation on cost of most mods. I would agree that the attribute implants will be the mainstay for this – and their prices don’t swing as much. I am just pointing out that when it comes to the pirate implants the damage totals will be pretty skewed.

The main problem remains that the increased emphasis on podkills will just be another discouragement to getting new players into eve pvp. I don’t think that is good for eve.







De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.08.10 21:28:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
remove killmails.


This, tbh

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2010.08.11 01:00:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Furb Killer
remove killmails.


This, tbh


 

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