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Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:10:00 - [181]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 16/07/2010 21:10:16
So Explorer, does this seem right to you:

Incarna (9 teams)
- How many art teams?
- How many feature teams?
- How many UI teams?

Dust (1 team)
- Feature team?
- Sharing art teams with Incarna?

Core (2 teams):
- GM/Customer Service Tools (Making "The Logs" show something, Extending cust svc tools for Dust/Incarna, etc)
- Core Infrastructure (Patches, etc)

Eve Online (6 teams):
- Fleet Lag/Automation Testing
- Fleet Lag/Cowboy Coders
- PVE Feature Team
- Mission Design Team
- Art Team
- Evegate

So best case scenario, considering the new "20%" rule:
- Eve Online consists of 6.6 effective teams
- Core consists of 1.6 effective teams
- Dust consists of 0.8 teams
- Incarna consists of 9 teams
- You're hiring 2 more teams (they're going to be assigned to what?)

Also, I highly encourage you to do something like 40 hours/wk, 10% of that is 'free for whatever the developer cares about', 20% for bugs, and 70% for "primary feature" they're responsible for. Put up some cash prizes for outstanding issues the players are hot over - like fixing faction warfare or something. Man it feels like this player relationship (even the "haters") is so close to salvagable with a little bit of "mea culpa" and some delivered promises to iterate over bugs/exploits/features that are heavily asked for.

-Liang

Ed: Formatting

Kewso
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:10:00 - [182]
 

I for one can't wait till Incarna, I've been really excited about it since it was first mentioned long ago.

I've wanted to see what was inside these pods and not be stuck in ships 24/7 which really doesn't make sense anyhow.

I just wish they'd hurry up and release Incarna, the waiting sucks.


ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:10:00 - [183]
 

Edited by: ArmyOfMe on 16/07/2010 21:18:52
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Viper ShizzIe
Thanks for proving everybody right about how much you actually care about EVE Online.
I care deeply about EVE Online and so does everyone at CCP.
If you ask us it looks like CCP only cares about incarna and eve gate and almost nothing about eve(the spaceship game)
if ccp cared then you would at least have had a team trying to fix the freaking lag you guys have managed to create everytime u try to fight in 0,0.
but i guess even eve gate is more important then that, and how about the af's thats been waiting for a boost since they were released??

seriously, ccp is just getting more ******ed with each passing expantion tbh.


bring back some of the dev's that actually cared about the game.

seriously, are you only thinking about getting new players in and not even giving a thought to the playerbase that have actually been here for years and have helped this game grow to what it is????

ihcn
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:17:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: ArmyOfMe
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Viper ShizzIe
Thanks for proving everybody right about how much you actually care about EVE Online.
I care deeply about EVE Online and so does everyone at CCP.
If you ask us it looks like CCP only cares about incarna and eve gate and almost nothing about eve(the spaceship game)
if ccp cared then you would at least have had a team trying to fix the freaking lag you guys have managed to create everytime u try to fight in 0,0.
but i guess even eve gate is more important then that, and how about the af's thats been waiting for a boost since they were released??

seriously, ccp is just getting more ******ed with each passing expantion tbh.


bring back some of the dev's that actually cared about the game.

...they do have a team dedicated to fixing lag

FlightGlobal
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:21:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: CCP Fallout
CCP Zulu talks development and clarifies the near future of EVE with the latest dev blog.


Edited by: FlightGlobal on 16/07/2010 20:21:54

Ok first off, I think this post will upset as many (or more) people than support it- I'm sorry about that and this post is not about what shouldn't be in eve as this is unqestionably CCP's choice as a buisness first and game developer 2nd.

However, I would like to express concern, even anger at CCP's proposed timescales. Now I would again admit that CCP is a buisness first and game developer 2nd and thus it has to do what is in it's interest in terms of product development timescales.

But my problem is that I think CCP is taking on too much stuff, in too short a time frame in order to meet arbitrary time scales for other products. I fear this is a problem for three reasons, the first is a matter of personal opinions, the other two are a wider refelection on eve as a whole.

1) As a pure eve player I really don't care about character interaction or fps consol games that link to eve. I appreciate this may be important to gamers (both current and future), but I'm really not interesed, especially when taking into account the possible ramifications listed below in points 2+3.

2) I really have to question the gaming quality of eve at the moment. I am concerned with eve's ability to offer a stable gaming platform for it's current users. The game has, even by CCP's admission, become less stable over the last 9-14 months. Now while I admit CCP is trying to resolve this, I question how much resource is being put in to fixing it, and what the proposed timescale is. Am I the only one sat here worried coz all I want is a stable game to enjoy. I worry that with twice yearly upgrades (none that solely focus on stability) and now not one, not two but three (if u include the latest planet mining initiative) large projects that CCP is spreading itself far to thin to provide the nessesary current and future gaming experience.

3) Linked to point 2, if CCP is further expanding, whilst not maintaing a stable and reliable platform for product 1 (Eve online), what hope is there if CCP is extended over new projects and new games to provide support for a game that is already loosing stability (especially in null sec)? Further, if these new projects do draw in the new gamers to eve that CCP hope it should, will this not make the game even more unreliable as it is not currently working at current capacity.

Now this may be selfish, and I admit that, but I enjoy playing eve online coz I enjoy flying internet spaceships in fleets of like minded people, against the same type of opposition.

Now I may be wrong here, but am I alone in thinking that rather than all this other stuff, that it would be nice if Eve as it is now (or was 6 months ago) just worked - plain and simple?

iP0D
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:21:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: iP0D
Your argument is somehow, correct me if I am wrong, coming across as if the unilateral bulk of the workload did not relate to specification, research, integration prospects or the project remaining in touch with common principles of the product.
My reply was based on the technical design, programming, analysis and testing that had to be done to deliver what the design called for. I understand your question and I'm not dismissing it, but your question is more about strategy than technology and technology is my area of expertise.


COMMUNICATION

Ok, back under control. When person A is answering inquiries, yet does not have a specific piece of an answer, there is usually a person B who can provide insight.

Ok, can you see how to most players, this then comes across very quickly as there being a divide between strategy and technology, where those are equal (and not even the only) partners within the requirements picture?

Is it possible, perhaps, for say Helga or someone else to shed some light on this, because this is one of the things that greatly influence the reception by customers of intended product delivery.

Ofcourse, the intended product delivery is abundantly clear to be not in synch with product state nor customer patterns within the immersion (more importantly, not even in sync with this outside of the product immersion) but that is beside the point.

What I, and going by quite a few external forums, a lot of other people worry about is that from the interviews we have seen, there has been zero indication of research on this intrinsic balance between strategy, technology, customer pattern research, external influence trends, etc. where it comes to EVE Gate. This is very worrying, because this once again comes down to an awareness of what is the foundation of the IP and product alike (that emotional link mentioend earlier in this thread) not being in synch with that of both product and customer.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:21:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: ihcn
...they do have a team dedicated to fixing lag


It seemed like they had a team and a "quasi team" dedicated to fixing lag. The dev blog seemed a bit incoherent to me, which is why I keep trying to get some confirmation that I'm reading things correctly for what they're actually working on.

-Liang

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:22:00 - [188]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Ix Forres
Myself and one other person have been working on http://www.eve-metrics.com/ for a while now. We just released a major, major update. We spent maybe 80 hours on it each, so call it 3 weeks of full-time work from a developer. We produced that. The 10 man team working full-time on EVE Gate produced something that does a fraction of the work in over a year.
The team that worked on EVE Gate had to build a the foundation for a web site cluster that connects to a real-time simulation cluster and provide a two-way real-time communication between the two clusters. The web site had to be architectured to scale to 100's of thousands of users. A lot of time was spent on testing and performance analysis, as well as defensive coding and exploit testing. On top of that the team had to provide the features for the first iteration of the web site.


No they didn't.

Because we're not going to use it.

Dzajic
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:23:00 - [189]
 

No, they have a team dedicated to creating needlessly complicated tool that will replace all the naughty people that keep failing to appear on mass tests. And once they get the "fleet fight AI" on, well... it might help them run automated mass tests and try to find the Dominion bug that killed the performance.

Dawn Harbinger
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:25:00 - [190]
 

OK, I think we can all agree that everyone at CCP cares deeply about this game, more than most players, and I'm looking forward to what the future of Eve holds. Incarna sounds sick; Being able to go inside stations? Check. Hiring mercenaries to fight for resources in a FPS? Check.
Sorry but that sounds really awesome.
Keep up the good work Cool

Freyya
Advanced Planetary Exports
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:26:00 - [191]
 

Claiming threadnaught on page 7 (or is it 8 already?)

One simple thing Zulu (and the majority of vocal forum devs and management) seem to miss;
Yelling from the highest building about your innovative features for so many expansions, not delivering on all that yelling and then trying to obscure all past yelling by yelling even harder about new features is pointless. Did you forget your own demographics of the playerbase being highly educated and of alot of middle aged people? You're not talking, no yelling, to ADHD 10 year old kiddies who can't remember if they pooped in their pants or on the toilet. We might whine like them, but that's only because you treat us like them.

Also; Where's the clarification on what's happening in 2011 exactly as the title of your blog states?
All i'm seeing is vague and general yelling like usual.
Don't get me wrong i totally appreciate the gesture of communication but when said communication is all about exactly not what it was supposed to be..

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:31:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Malcanis
CCP assigning just one out of their 17 dev teams to working on the issues and bugs backlog, publicising the existence of this team, and maintainging a list - just a simple list - of what has been fixed by this team, what is currently being fixed, and what will be fixed next would go a long long long way to placating a currently very disillusioned and disappointed playerbase.
Slight correction here, all the non-Incarna teams allocate 20% of their time to bug fixes. The other 80% is spent on feature development, which may include an overhaul of an existing feature if that overhaul is more than a bug fix. Then there is a team working on server performance and another team on network performance and scalability.


Do you believe that the 80/20 split for development/maintenance is working well? Do you think your customers are satisfied with the results that the 80/20 split is producing? Are you, personally, satisfied with the response time to fix outstanding issues? (I seem to recall that you said you regularly play EVE)?

No doubt you can see a huge eruption of customer dissatisfaction on your forums over the last week or so. Would you care to summarise your personal perception and understanding of the root cause of that dissatisfaction?

ihcn
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:32:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: Dzajic
No, they have a team dedicated to creating needlessly complicated tool that will replace all the naughty people that keep failing to appear on mass tests. And once they get the "fleet fight AI" on, well... it might help them run automated mass tests and try to find the Dominion bug that killed the performance.

Exactly how complicated is it, and exactly how complicated does it need to be? Oh, you don't know?

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:32:00 - [194]
 

Zulu, thank you for your blog. It was basically a clarification of what the CSM minutes said, with a real problem being that you didn't seem to have read the minutes yourself before they were published.

Walking in Stations was first announced in 2006. each year at fanfest, some or other feature of WiS was trotted out for those people who attended. In between the fanfests, nothing of value was ever mentioned about it. To most players it seemed very much like vapourware, i.e. something that might or might not appear some time in the distant future. It seemed very much like a hubris driven marketing exercise.

Then, last year, the name was changed to Incarna, some time after the development of Dust514 was announced. This year it seems that CCP has spent the vast majority of its time on Incarna and Dust development and has seriously neglected the core business of Eve. And I won't mention the disaster that is Eve-Gate and how that reflects on CCP's track record of introducing a stable, polished product.

Zulu, you comment on how unique Eve is to have a link in to a SciFi FPS console game. I cannot stress on you how badly Dust is going to fail if it is anywhere NEAR as bad as some of the recent patches and product releases. Console players are fickle and will not play it at all if it has any of the problems that Eve has.

I understand CCP feeling the need to diversify their product base, but I simply shudder to think how much time, money and resources have been wasted on not one but two parallel FP games, WoD and Dust 514. And, from all I've read, Dust is not particularly unique in terms of game play (w00t headshot!) I honestly think CCP is going to suffer massive losses when Dust fails as the people who play it (if it is good enough and I also worry about the quality when the UT3 engine of 2007 is being used; why not just play UT3?) leave for the Modern warfare or Halo.

I think you people at CCP get so lost in your own hubris (using AWESOME twenty times in each sentence when describing some or other feature) that you fail to see the wood from the trees, so to speak.

Incarna may help bind some more people to Eve. I'm pretty sure Dust won't.

And that is a crying shame. You could have done walking on planets as a further development of Incarna. Lord knows there are many people who play eve for the back story and who would have loved to have been able to walk on Luminaire or Caldari Prime or see the Empress speak.

It would have given you years of possibilities in terms of story development.

It would have bound players to Eve like nothing other!

Instead, you've got hordes of older players quitting or considering doing so and hordes of newer players still as absolutely confused on how to play the game as ever.

T0KER
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:33:00 - [195]
 

Edited by: T0KER on 16/07/2010 21:35:21
CCP: Why would players of an mmo that has GAMEPLAY, want all the devs resources going to another game within it that has NO GAMEPLAY

If you're going to have 70 people working on Incarna, at least have some gameplay concepts in mind, and if you do share them with the community.
I will never walk around in stations for the sake of roleplaying, I thought this was a pvp focused sandbox game... not second life.

Callum545
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:38:00 - [196]
 

I think i speak for most of the people in 0.0 when i say Lag should be at the top of the list to be improved. So much for excellence if you cannot fix one of the core problems in eve at the moment in my opinion.

Grayclay
Caldari
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:40:00 - [197]
 

If the views of the players who posted comments in this thread are representative of the playerbase as a whole, I am embarassed to be a part of it. I have never read such outright pathetic whines.

I'm part of the minority of players who is simply glad that CCP is taking a step to being more transparent. As for the actual information disclosed, EvE isn't my entire life, so its not nearly important enough to destablize my emotions.

Kewso
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:40:00 - [198]
 

CCP would be better off just eliminating this CSM crap

I used to be a teamleader for dark age of camelot heretic class, and it's no wonder they eliminated the teamlead program, its just drama. Save money from sending people to Iceland and spend it on giving devs a raise :) boost morale which probably isn't needed anyhow and get me Incarna!!

hehe

Mr LaForge
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:41:00 - [199]
 

Edited by: Mr LaForge on 16/07/2010 21:43:47
I got to say. I appreciate this dev blog probably more than the last 20-30 because for once we are seeing how resources in CCP are being allocated. I realize CCP wants to do this revolutionary thing of linking the console world with the PC world and until I have more info I can't make a judgment but it seems at the moment from my reading around the forums that CCP is pretty much completely taken over by Incarna and Dust and ignoring everything else.

You know what I'd like to see most. Small, very small fixes. I challenge a dev to go into the code, look at for example, rockets and make some tweaks and then put a patch on SISI for feedback, even make a dev blog. If its successful then make it a real patch on TQ. I'm not a dev, and don't know what the above would entail but I HAVE read stories of CCP devs staying late or working from home on things they believed were worthwhile that may not have been in the final expansion patch if they hadn't. That is the kind of effort this community would really rally behind. Small but significant fixes to existing elements.

-Edit-

I am also part of the small minority of players that appreciate developers laying their cards on the table and being open about it.

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2010.07.16 21:42:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: FlightGlobal
The game has, even by CCP's admission, become less stable over the last 9-14 months.
No, in general that is not true.

The CSM members reading this thread will remember my comments at the meeting the CSM had with CCP Oveur (not detailed in the CSM meeting minutes) and my followup in the lag meeting CCP Atlas and I had with the CSM the day after (this is clearly detailed in the CSM meeting minutes). EVE is now, from a technical standpoint, in a better state than it has ever been.

There are specific issues in fleet fights, and we are actively working on resolving those issues (see one of my earlier reply in this thread), but EVE is generally healthy from a technical standpoint.

Bartillo Strongbradd
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:43:00 - [201]
 

Edited by: Bartillo Strongbradd on 16/07/2010 21:45:52
Incarna is a AMAZING feature it will change the game, Have any of you guys seen the footage and such from fanfest 2008?
Youtube it.

You can open your own bar and design it however you want from stripper to minigames to lighting.
You can open a clothing store and design and sell clothes.
You can cut hair.

Theres a variety of jobs and skills you can do in stations.
You can make ISK by owning your own shop.

Also CCP talked about corp HQs having board rooms and such you can use for meetings.

Incarna adds a huge dynamic to eve.

Im tired of eve players whining that CCP has most of there eve devs on Incarna, well they are doing that cause its really going to change the game, I can see eve subs doubling with Incarna.
Most of my friends love the idea of eve a real sci fi sandbox, but cant connect, having a avatar and being able to own a shop or hang out in station bar with some friends would really bring them into the game easier.

Zerrov
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:48:00 - [202]
 

TL;DR

We have a ton of teams working on a lot of stuff that people generally don't care about.

We have a couple of teams working on stuff you might care about.

iP0D
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:49:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: FlightGlobal
The game has, even by CCP's admission, become less stable over the last 9-14 months.
No, in general that is not true.

The CSM members reading this thread will remember my comments at the meeting the CSM had with CCP Oveur (not detailed in the CSM meeting minutes) and my followup in the lag meeting CCP Atlas and I had with the CSM the day after (this is clearly detailed in the CSM meeting minutes). EVE is now, from a technical standpoint, in a better state than it has ever been.

There are specific issues in fleet fights, and we are actively working on resolving those issues (see one of my earlier reply in this thread), but EVE is generally healthy from a technical standpoint.


No disrespect, but that can very well serve as a damn good focal point here to perhaps shed a little light.

None of the metrics means anything to players. Players care about the experience. That experience is tainted. Back to the emotional link as foundation element to the type of product.

Also, please, do not try these little subterfuges with references to stuff not in the minutes, insinuating that CSM is somehow privvy to something special but which they have not shared or do not want to share. You're on an internet forum here :P

Besides, in the light of how that CSM post earlier in this thread flat out disproved Zulu's assumptions, it really is just not done to try such stuff again. It does not even matter whether this is intended, you're dealing with customers :P

To many players Zulu's comments already came across as a smear against the CSM, and an attempt at manipulation. Only made visible when that CSM post earlier put things in the right perspective.

Sure, he did not mean it that way, and I honestly believe that. I do think he was honestly surprised. But in the light of what is visible to players on how terrible you are at communication and workflow in these things (and from the perspective of gameplay to players reflexively in other things) it should be clear to you how it comes across.

Please, communicate guys.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:51:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: FlightGlobal
The game has, even by CCP's admission, become less stable over the last 9-14 months.
No, in general that is not true.

The CSM members reading this thread will remember my comments at the meeting the CSM had with CCP Oveur (not detailed in the CSM meeting minutes) and my followup in the lag meeting CCP Atlas and I had with the CSM the day after (this is clearly detailed in the CSM meeting minutes). EVE is now, from a technical standpoint, in a better state than it has ever been.

There are specific issues in fleet fights, and we are actively working on resolving those issues (see one of my earlier reply in this thread), but EVE is generally healthy from a technical standpoint.


Just an FYI, but those "fleet fight" issues are being encountered right down to "fleets" of 20 or so. Maybe no one has mentioned this to you or something, but there you go.

So anyway now you know: Whilst EVE may well be "technically" in a far better state than ever, the actual gameplay is in a far worse state than it's been for a long long time.

PS I realise that you have to trot out the party line on this, but seriously, your saying this guff again was a :facepalm:. It's like we're speaking a different language here. We're telling you that the house is on fire and you're proudly announcing that the building has better heating facilities than any other MMO out there.

Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:51:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: Bartillo Strongbradd
Edited by: Bartillo Strongbradd on 16/07/2010 21:45:52
Incarna is a AMAZING feature it will change the game, Have any of you guys seen the footage and such from fanfest 2008?
Youtube it.

You can open your own bar and design it however you want from stripper to minigames to lighting.
You can open a clothing store and design and sell clothes.
You can cut hair.

Theres a variety of jobs and skills you can do in stations.
You can make ISK by owning your own shop.

Also CCP talked about corp HQs having board rooms and such you can use for meetings.

Incarna adds a huge dynamic to eve.

Im tired of eve players whining that CCP has most of there eve devs on Incarna, well they are doing that cause its really going to change the game, I can see eve subs doubling with Incarna.
Most of my friends love the idea of eve a real sci fi sandbox, but cant connect, having a avatar and being able to own a shop or hang out in station bar with some friends would really bring them into the game easier.


At the end of the day, if there's no collaborative map feature (ie a war room) like was mentioned several times early in the hype for Incara but hasnt been since, I can do without bars and hair salons if it meant feature completion and ship balance.

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:54:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: Mira O'karr
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
Originally by: Mira O'karr


hopeing for an AI that can not tell "hold" from "jump" and "align" from "warp"

should at least be entertaining to watch


If that's all you're looking for, I'm sure CCP will be able to pull it off ...


you seem awfully sure of that, good sir.


You know me: positive and constructive attitude!

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2010.07.16 21:54:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: iP0D
Also, please, do not try these little subterfuges with references to stuff not in the minutes, insinuating that CSM is somehow privvy to something special but which they have not shared or do not want to share. You're on an internet forum here :P
Pages 13-15, it's all there.

Gabi Osterhagen
Perkone
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:56:00 - [208]
 

What I love about this is that if you generally care only about PVP (in space I guess I have to specify sadly) and only do PVE as a means to an end you have nothing to look forward to for 2 years.

Yes I know the carebear population has exploded and is the primary source of growth, but god, throw us a bone.

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:56:00 - [209]
 

Edited by: Virtuozzo on 16/07/2010 22:03:58
Originally by: CCP Explorer
EVE is now, from a technical standpoint, in a better state than it has ever been.


I've made some references as to why this is entirely irrelevant to the core focus of CCP as an enterprise, or rather, that it is not an primary variable in the development of either enterprise or product.

EVE is not a can of soup. How hard is it to explain the difference between a commodity product and an immersive product.

What you are stating is quite possibly fully accurate on a metrics level, but that is a secondary variable. It has zero bearing on the experience of the customer. Why do you think Apocrypha was recieved so well, and why Dominion was received a lot less well.


Now reflect on why it is that CCP at the top has a completely different perspective on that, in comparison to players.


Now reflect, which is more important for the type of product you make, the market you are establishing and the strategic health of the IP.


My god, how hard is it to look over the walls of the cubicle / little kingdom. Yes, you are probably correct on the metrics, but those mean (sorry to use the word) **** to the customer, because the customer is directly linked to the very nature of an immersive product: he has an emotional connection through his experience in the immersion of the product.

Please, think for a moment.

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.07.16 21:56:00 - [210]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
EVE is now, from a technical standpoint, in a better state than it has ever been.


Is it also in a better state than it has ever been in regards to perceived quality and performance?


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