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Celia Therone
Posted - 2010.08.12 22:19:00 - [1921]
 

Originally by: Cade Windstalker

Yup, and for every game that gets canceled after announce, due to bad response or whatever else, there are dozens that never see the light of day. That's what I mean when I say that it's extremely uncommon. Also compared to the number of games released, for that matter.

Glad you agree that significant numbers of projects get canceled.

Originally by: Cade Windstalker

UT3 is a good engine and it'll still be a good engine in a few years. So what if it doesn't render nose hairs or whatever?

I'm glad that you think using an old engine is a competitive edge.

Originally by: Cade Windstalker

Originally by: Celia Therone
Of course we already know that CCP are developing a new engine for Incarna so I have no idea why you're trying to argue that this isn't necessary?


First off, 3D engine =/= Gameplay Engine =/= Physics Engine

Yes, they may need to tweak or re-write bits of their engine for Incarna but unless you can link me to a press release that states "we're making a whole new engine for this" then I'll remain unconvinced.


Unless you can link a press release that says that they're using the EVE 3-D engine, based around 250km grids, to handle station interiors then I'll remain unconvinced...

Originally by: Cade Windstalker

Originally by: Celia Therone
If Incarna was slated to include storming and defending stations then I think it'd be getting a much more positive response from the EVE community because it'd be slated to have actual game play in it. Whenever I see a game that doesn't have actual game play (like PI) I find it very difficult to remain optimistic that it will be fun to play for any significant length of time. And a game that isn't fun to play isn't much of a game.


PI isn't its own game. It isn't meant to be. It's supposed to be, at best, a sub-game or mini-game within Eve. Besides, we don't actually know what's going to be in Incarna. Not really. We just know "walking in stations".

As for "storming and defending stations would shut people up" no, it'd **** off a whole different subset of the population who want Eve to not turn into an FPS where you run around in a spaceship sometimes. Personally I wouldn't like having part of Eve be about boarding stations for a number of reasons no one wants to hear.


That'd be the subset of the population that think that Alien sucks? That the experiences recounted by Cherryh, Banks, Bujold, Smith, Gear etc aren't worth emulating?

PI was an entire expansion. Like wormholes. The difference is that one had engaging gameplay and the other hasn't got any. Let alone that PI was supposed to be important enough to drive conflict on planets. Seriously, how much would you pay to kill someone else's pin or defend one of your own? The idea is ludicrous under the current implementation.

Cade Windstalker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.13 00:15:00 - [1922]
 

Originally by: Celia Therone
Glad you agree that significant numbers of projects get canceled.


Yes, but the VAST majority of those are unannounced to the public. Once a game's been announced then its odds of dying are pretty damn low.

Originally by: Celia Therone
I'm glad that you think using an old engine is a competitive edge.


I never said that. I suspect that the Unreal 4 engine either isn't available for licensing yet (I don't know, I'd have to check and there may be no info at all for the public on this) or it wasn't at the time CCP started work on Dust 514. Either way, I only said I didn't think it'd be an issue.

Originally by: Celia Therone
Unless you can link a press release that says that they're using the EVE 3-D engine, based around 250km grids, to handle station interiors then I'll remain unconvinced...


That's not engine, that's how the network and then the client break up the game into manageable pieces. The 250km grid size is so the client doesn't **** a brick trying to render someone's ship on the other side of the solar system along with every asteroid, planet, and can. Changing the grid size would, at least in theory, probably be a single line or variable somewhere. That said, doing so would probably cause all sorts of brick ****ting so best not to. (not to mention the effect on game balance)

Originally by: Celia Therone
That'd be the subset of the population that think that Alien sucks? That the experiences recounted by Cherryh, Banks, Bujold, Smith, Gear etc aren't worth emulating?


I never said this. I just don't want to see Eve turn into "get the transport to the POS!!!", ???, profit. Besides, we're only immortal when we die inside a pod. Us fighting in stations would break cannon BADLY.

Originally by: Celia Therone
PI was an entire expansion. Like wormholes. The difference is that one had engaging gameplay and the other hasn't got any. Let alone that PI was supposed to be important enough to drive conflict on planets. Seriously, how much would you pay to kill someone else's pin or defend one of your own? The idea is ludicrous under the current implementation.


This implementation is also being iterated on before Dust 514 is released. Besides, just because PI isn't your thing (I'll admit the things I've heard about the UI make it unappealing) doesn't mean that people don't enjoy it or that you never will. It just means that shooting stuff in a wormhole appeals to you more than figuring out the best place to stick your extractors.

wr3cks
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.08.13 03:56:00 - [1923]
 

Originally by: Cade Windstalker
Originally by: Celia Therone
Glad you agree that significant numbers of projects get canceled.


Yes, but the VAST majority of those are unannounced to the public. Once a game's been announced then its odds of dying are pretty damn low.



Do you have any evidence to support this assertion? I'm unaware of any empirical studies on videogame survival rates. The VAST majority of your factual assertions are completely unsubstantiated.

Originally by: Cade Windstalker
Originally by: Celia Therone
PI was an entire expansion. Like wormholes. The difference is that one had engaging gameplay and the other hasn't got any. Let alone that PI was supposed to be important enough to drive conflict on planets. Seriously, how much would you pay to kill someone else's pin or defend one of your own? The idea is ludicrous under the current implementation.


This implementation is also being iterated on before Dust 514 is released. Besides, just because PI isn't your thing (I'll admit the things I've heard about the UI make it unappealing) doesn't mean that people don't enjoy it or that you never will. It just means that shooting stuff in a wormhole appeals to you more than figuring out the best place to stick your extractors.


1) It should have been "iterated" to the level of being not terrible before its two-week-late release (which also introduced big economic imbalances when people started reprocessing NPC goods). There is no excuse for such low quality product.

2) I have to agree that it's laughably stupid to think of people fighting over PI in its current state. Ohno, I better hire some xbox players to defend my mechanical parts! You can iterate until you're blue in the face, but unless you replace planet goo with moon goo (i.e. make dramatic changes to the economy of the game), I can't imagine how coolant becomes worth fighting over.

3) Have you actually done any PI? You're insinuating that you have not.

Ordinarily, I'd say it's bizarre that you're bothering to defend something you've never used on the basis that we're told eventually it will stop sucking.

However, given the nature of your involvement in this thread (consisting largely of quoting single lines out of context for purposes of nitpicking and distracting) I suppose no one should be surprised.

By the way, I notice you're posting on this toon that's been in an NPC corp for over a year. Also, the bio says the toon is a year younger than listed, and it's only an 09 toon.... Is this your main? That might explain your limited insight into the actual gameplay.

To get back to the actual point of the thread, important elements of this game that define emergent play are broken (fleet and sov warfare). Thousands of players have made clear their displeasure with broken, half-finished features (see multiple threadnaughts). Now, we have this dev blog that basically confirms what we should have suspected, that inspace EVE is getting the short end of the stick.

It's been almost a month and we've yet to hear any kind of reply, short of some twitter gossip wherein CCP Fallout says they were going to post a reply this week, but they want the CCP Warlock 'scaling issues' devblog to come first.

I'm sure it's just because they're just all on the beach. Right. Anyone want to buy a CNR in Jita? My contract slots are all used up so we'll have to use the trade window...

Celia Therone
Posted - 2010.08.13 03:59:00 - [1924]
 

Edited by: Celia Therone on 13/08/2010 04:06:21
Originally by: Cade Windstalker

Originally by: Celia Therone
Unless you can link a press release that says that they're using the EVE 3-D engine, based around 250km grids, to handle station interiors then I'll remain unconvinced...


That's not engine, that's how the network and then the client break up the game into manageable pieces. The 250km grid size is so the client doesn't **** a brick trying to render someone's ship on the other side of the solar system along with every asteroid, planet, and can. Changing the grid size would, at least in theory, probably be a single line or variable somewhere. That said, doing so would probably cause all sorts of brick ****ting so best not to. (not to mention the effect on game balance)

I am just about certain that in the dev blog on deep safe nerfs CCP said that they used grids on the server too. And from a technical standpoint dividing stuff into grids on the server should massively enhance performance if done right. Done right would ideally be overlapping, dynamically sized grids but even static sized ones are better than having to iterate through all ships in system every time every ship does something. Further evidence for this is that cynoing a large fleet onto one grid currently causes the server to choke but cynoing the same fleet split up into multiple destination grids doesn't.

Originally by: Cade Windstalker

Besides, we're only immortal when we die inside a pod. Us fighting in stations would break cannon BADLY.

Eve cannon is of very variable quality, I'm sure it wouldn't be noticeably degraded by the addition of short-range station clones controlled from your pod.

Originally by: Cade Windstalker
This implementation is also being iterated on before Dust 514 is released. Besides, just because PI isn't your thing (I'll admit the things I've heard about the UI make it unappealing) doesn't mean that people don't enjoy it or that you never will. It just means that shooting stuff in a wormhole appeals to you more than figuring out the best place to stick your extractors.

PI is being iterated on by the Eve/Dust link team. Does that mean that PI gameplay will improve or that they're building the internal infrastructure for hiring Dust mercs in Eve and changing stuff on planets due to the results of mercs' actions? Remember that they can't really release Dust without the link working, but they can release it with PI still sucking and then maybe fix PI later.

Why don't you give PI a try? It hardly costs any time or isk to set up a basic command center on a planet. You could probably do it in under 2 hours of training for less than 3 million isk including extractors and a couple of processors. And, trust me, figuring out the best place to put your extractors is the only part of PI that's entertaining. Trouble is that you only do it about 5 times (possibly 10-12 if you move your setup around/max PI skills.) The problem is that there is zero game play once stuff is set up. And, honestly, even setting stuff up isn't that great. Find the white dot for what you want to extract and stick your extractors there... Iterate for the other resources that you want. Optionally locate them closer together on slightly less optimal white dots.

I'd say that I like civ based games more than I like shooting wormhole stuff. My skills are heavily drone based which makes wormholing a bit of an exercise in frustration for me and I have done quite a bit of it. Nevertheless I can see how it fostered an entire new play style so even though I have some significant issues with it I still call it a success.

You've been championing CCP on this thread for a while now and you haven't even been bothered to try out their entire latest expansion? Really? You can do it in high sec. The command centers are seeded all over the place. You only need a 50m3 cargo bay for a basic command center. If there's one thing CCP did succeed at in PI it's making the barrier to entry low.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.13 06:04:00 - [1925]
 

28 days with no substantial response is a substantial response. Pity it's not the one we were all hoping for, but I guess ignoring the problem in the hope it will go away is a viable tactic in these circumstances.

Tyby
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.08.13 10:15:00 - [1926]
 

Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow
For me, EVE is pretty much dead unfortunately. After 5 years (account time, probably more like 3 years) of playing, my interest is pretty much gone.

Why you ask?
I cant play in 0.0. The lag is horrid, and the mechanics are such that it requires a lot of 'online' time to contribute and plan. Doesnt work for me. Even if I had the time, I wouldnt touch it due to lag.
Missions are mind numbingly boring. No thanks.
Faction Wafare? No thanks. Broken imo.
PI? No thanks. Click fest, boring and dull. Requirs a lot of 'online' time and constant clicking to make it some what viable.
Market trading? Done that too. the .1 ISK game is no fun. No thanks.
Mining? I'd rather poke out my eye with a rusty spoon. Mind numbing and boring. No thanks.
Wormholes? I was running WH's - but they are now SUPER saturated. Every WH I go into is taken. Im guessing thats the results of having most of your game broken and one area working just fine.
Low sec pvp? Low sec is generally acknowledged as being broken, but group ganking haulers and lone ships isnt my idea of fun.

So....Im just about wrapped up with EVE. Their 18 month development plan is not inspiring to say the least, and I find it very unlikely they will address issues I have with the game for 2-3 years. So maybe Ill check back in then.

No you cant haz my stuff.


this

Abrazzar
Posted - 2010.08.13 16:20:00 - [1927]
 

...and unstickied.

Instead of a response to the issues at the core, we now get a series about lag and need for speed.

I'm out. See you probably in 18 months. Maybe not.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.13 20:39:00 - [1928]
 

In fairness, after just 28 days, we're getting some transparent responses. It's a start.

CyberGh0st
Minmatar
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2010.08.13 20:51:00 - [1929]
 

Just want to add, don't make the mistakes SOE made with SWG NGE and CU or Mythic with DAOC ToA and NF.
By mutilating and/or neglecting the core gameplay you will lose your veteran player base. Once you lose them, it is all downhill from there.

Trust me, I have been there, twice.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:44:00 - [1930]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
In fairness, after just 28 days, we're getting some transparent responses. It's a start.
I think that a certain amount of thanks must go to you for your persistence, and above all, keeping it civil.

Cade Windstalker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:53:00 - [1931]
 

Originally by: wr3cks
Do you have any evidence to support this assertion? I'm unaware of any empirical studies on videogame survival rates. The VAST majority of your factual assertions are completely unsubstantiated.


From talking to people who have worked at EA, Microsoft, and a host of other, smaller, game dev studios and publishers. Many of these people are my teachers. If I'm recalling correctly this has also been brought up a number of times in Gamasutra and other game industry publications in producer and developer interviews. Often when a game that HAS been announced dies for whatever reason.

I'm sorry I don't have a nice shiny empirical study to point you to. This is just my knowledge that I've gained through personal experience and from listening to others. Take it or leave it.

Originally by: wr3cks
1) It should have been "iterated" to the level of being not terrible before its two-week-late release (which also introduced big economic imbalances when people started reprocessing NPC goods). There is no excuse for such low quality product.


Has it occurred to you that maybe it was released late and in an unfinished state because of unforeseeable technical issues that had to be resolved before they could even release this much? There are always plenty of excuses, reasons, and "why"s when something ships with features cut or ships late. What you seem to mean here is "I don't care if there were reasons"

Originally by: wr3cks
2) I have to agree that it's laughably stupid to think of people fighting over PI in its current state. Ohno, I better hire some xbox players to defend my mechanical parts! You can iterate until you're blue in the face, but unless you replace planet goo with moon goo (i.e. make dramatic changes to the economy of the game), I can't imagine how coolant becomes worth fighting over.


Anything worth money in Eve is worth fighting over. The first reason that springs to mind for me is that if you hit an enemy's Planets and blow up their starbases at the same time then it's going to be harder for those to be replaced.

Originally by: wr3cks
3) Have you actually done any PI? You're insinuating that you have not.


I thought I stated this? Anyways, just for the record, I have not done PI. I'm currently reading and looking and trying to figure out what I can do optimally without investing into any of the skills more than a few levels.

Originally by: wr3cks
Ordinarily, I'd say it's bizarre that you're bothering to defend something you've never used on the basis that we're told eventually it will stop sucking.

However, given the nature of your involvement in this thread (consisting largely of quoting single lines out of context for purposes of nitpicking and distracting) I suppose no one should be surprised.


I'm not trying to quote anything out of context and I'm certainly replying to things in the context of their original post. As for distracting? Search me as near as I can tell you're just slinging insults at this point.

I'm defending PI because I see people being unforgiving and irrational and I'm trying to give a little insight because I know for a fact CCP can't comment on a lot of this. Especially not development process stuff.

Cade Windstalker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.13 23:00:00 - [1932]
 

Edited by: Cade Windstalker on 13/08/2010 23:01:56
Originally by: wr3cks
By the way, I notice you're posting on this toon that's been in an NPC corp for over a year. Also, the bio says the toon is a year younger than listed, and it's only an 09 toon.... Is this your main? That might explain your limited insight into the actual gameplay.


Yes, this is my main. I did the trial pre-Apocrypha and then didn't have time to continue. It's summer, so I've had time and wanted to start up again.

I will always state if I'm posting about something I have no first hand knowledge of. However, I have a number of friends who play and I've followed the politics, the stories, and whatever else for going on four years now.

As for why I haven't had time. I've been studying Game Design and Development. This is why I feel compelled to comment on things related to this subject when people are spreading fallacies or are simply making well intentioned but incorrect assumptions.

Originally by: wr3cks
To get back to the actual point of the thread, important elements of this game that define emergent play are broken (fleet and sov warfare). Thousands of players have made clear their displeasure with broken, half-finished features (see multiple threadnaughts). Now, we have this dev blog that basically confirms what we should have suspected, that inspace EVE is getting the short end of the stick.


It doesn't confirm that unless you already suspected it and want to vent on the subject. The main issues with in-space Eve right now are lag and a lack of feature iteration. They're obviously working on lag. If they had as many people working on lag as they do on Eve I'd groan because 90 people trying to find bugs in code is a bloody cluster****. You'd know this if you coded or were involved in programming or game development.

As for feature iteration. They seem to be indicating that the in-space teams will be iterating on features as part of that 80% of time not spent bug-fixing.

Originally by: wr3cks
It's been almost a month and we've yet to hear any kind of reply, short of some twitter gossip wherein CCP Fallout says they were going to post a reply this week, but they want the CCP Warlock 'scaling issues' devblog to come first.

I'm sure it's just because they're just all on the beach. Right. Anyone want to buy a CNR in Jita? My contract slots are all used up so we'll have to use the trade window...


No, that's because Dev blogs and other player communication take time out of them actually working on this stuff.

If this means you're quitting then bye, enjoy whatever you decide to do that isn't Eve. I'm sorry I won't have the chance to track you down a blow you up in a few years when I've got my skills up enough.Very Happy

Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: Malcanis
In fairness, after just 28 days, we're getting some transparent responses. It's a start.
I think that a certain amount of thanks must go to you for your persistence, and above all, keeping it civil.


Seconded.

SickSeven
Simplistic Syndicate
Posted - 2010.08.14 00:24:00 - [1933]
 

I read most of the minutes, enought to be... well mad. I agree with a lot of other paying customers here: The thing that was stated over and over from CCP in this meeting was: We are doing "this" for the next 18months, no matter how well you try to convince us otherwise, we may start to consider your concerns a year and a half from now.

Wow, W T F is the CSM for? I absolutely commend this iteration of the CSM for putting it to CCP and representing the concerns of the player base very well. Unfortunately for all of us CCP just gave them the finger. I can promise you that players canceled their subscriptions after reading those minutes. This meeting proved that CCP is going to do what they want regardless of outside influence.

And I'm still waiting to hear what is going to make Incarna worth 3 years of development, and degraded game quality/polish for the next 18 months...... You can't do anything meaningful outside of your ship, so why has this 'feature' taken up so much time and resources? Especially at the cost of previous expansions that have been abandoned in unfinished states?

Cade Windstalker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.14 01:22:00 - [1934]
 

Originally by: Celia Therone
I am just about certain that in the dev blog on deep safe nerfs CCP said that they used grids on the server too. And from a technical standpoint dividing stuff into grids on the server should massively enhance performance if done right. Done right would ideally be overlapping, dynamically sized grids but even static sized ones are better than having to iterate through all ships in system every time every ship does something. Further evidence for this is that cynoing a large fleet onto one grid currently causes the server to choke but cynoing the same fleet split up into multiple destination grids doesn't.


Yes, but this still isn't engine. It's just how things are parsed up so the engine knows what it's doing. You would need to tweak things so the engine doesn't try to look for grids to be fed but as engine changes go that's fairly minor.

Originally by: Celia Therone
Eve cannon is of very variable quality, I'm sure it wouldn't be noticeably degraded by the addition of short-range station clones controlled from your pod.


This one I'll give you. I was just saying that having our original bodies running around and dying would break cannon into itty bitty pieces.

Originally by: Celia Therone
PI is being iterated on by the Eve/Dust link team. Does that mean that PI gameplay will improve or that they're building the internal infrastructure for hiring Dust mercs in Eve and changing stuff on planets due to the results of mercs' actions? Remember that they can't really release Dust without the link working, but they can release it with PI still sucking and then maybe fix PI later.


The implication seems to be that they're iterating on PI itself. For one they probably would have said if they were working on the link and also there's no release date for Dust yet so they do have time.

Originally by: Celia Therone
Why don't you give PI a try? It hardly costs any time or isk to set up a basic command center on a planet. You could probably do it in under 2 hours of training for less than 3 million isk including extractors and a couple of processors. And, trust me, figuring out the best place to put your extractors is the only part of PI that's entertaining. Trouble is that you only do it about 5 times (possibly 10-12 if you move your setup around/max PI skills.) The problem is that there is zero game play once stuff is set up. And, honestly, even setting stuff up isn't that great. Find the white dot for what you want to extract and stick your extractors there... Iterate for the other resources that you want. Optionally locate them closer together on slightly less optimal white dots.


I'm currently trying to figure out what I want to produce and on what sort of planet(s). I'm definitely planning to give it a try but first I'm researching then I'm doing.

Originally by: Celia Therone
I'd say that I like civ based games more than I like shooting wormhole stuff. My skills are heavily drone based which makes wormholing a bit of an exercise in frustration for me and I have done quite a bit of it. Nevertheless I can see how it fostered an entire new play style so even though I have some significant issues with it I still call it a success.


Wormholes were definitely a success though I'd still like to see them iterated on a bit. Yes PI didn't do this and it DOES need some polish. It's also getting it. It was never going to result in a new style of play though and I don't think it was meant to. It's just another economic piece of the puzzle.

Originally by: Celia Therone
You've been championing CCP on this thread for a while now and you haven't even been bothered to try out their entire latest expansion? Really? You can do it in high sec. The command centers are seeded all over the place. You only need a 50m3 cargo bay for a basic command center. If there's one thing CCP did succeed at in PI it's making the barrier to entry low.


Planning on it. Just still figuring out what and where.

Cade Windstalker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.14 01:26:00 - [1935]
 

Originally by: SickSeven
I read most of the minutes, enought to be... well mad. I agree with a lot of other paying customers here: The thing that was stated over and over from CCP in this meeting was: We are doing "this" for the next 18months, no matter how well you try to convince us otherwise, we may start to consider your concerns a year and a half from now.

Wow, W T F is the CSM for? I absolutely commend this iteration of the CSM for putting it to CCP and representing the concerns of the player base very well. Unfortunately for all of us CCP just gave them the finger. I can promise you that players canceled their subscriptions after reading those minutes. This meeting proved that CCP is going to do what they want regardless of outside influence.

And I'm still waiting to hear what is going to make Incarna worth 3 years of development, and degraded game quality/polish for the next 18 months...... You can't do anything meaningful outside of your ship, so why has this 'feature' taken up so much time and resources? Especially at the cost of previous expansions that have been abandoned in unfinished states?


Read through this thread, especially the dev posts. It may not change your mind about incarna, but it'll at least give you a better idea of what CCP is going to be up to for the next 18 months and it's definitely not "we're doing no bug fixing or iteration for 18 months"

Celia Therone
Posted - 2010.08.14 02:22:00 - [1936]
 

Edited by: Celia Therone on 14/08/2010 02:22:03
Originally by: Cade Windstalker
Originally by: Celia Therone
I am just about certain that in the dev blog on deep safe nerfs CCP said that they used grids on the server too. And from a technical standpoint dividing stuff into grids on the server should massively enhance performance if done right. Done right would ideally be overlapping, dynamically sized grids but even static sized ones are better than having to iterate through all ships in system every time every ship does something. Further evidence for this is that cynoing a large fleet onto one grid currently causes the server to choke but cynoing the same fleet split up into multiple destination grids doesn't.


Yes, but this still isn't engine. It's just how things are parsed up so the engine knows what it's doing. You would need to tweak things so the engine doesn't try to look for grids to be fed but as engine changes go that's fairly minor.


I don't even know what you're trying to say here. First you say they don't have grids on server even though they almost certainly do. And you say that in response to me saying that 3-d spaceship grids probably aren't very useful in Incarna because that will tend to trim things by line of sight rather than distance. But, again, game review sites are talking about CCP's 'new engine' for Incarna after interviewing ccp so I don't know why you're still arguing that they don't need one (and fluidly changing the definition of engine back and forth to keep the argument up).

Originally by: Cade Windstalker
Originally by: Celia Therone
PI is being iterated on by the Eve/Dust link team. Does that mean that PI gameplay will improve or that they're building the internal infrastructure for hiring Dust mercs in Eve and changing stuff on planets due to the results of mercs' actions? Remember that they can't really release Dust without the link working, but they can release it with PI still sucking and then maybe fix PI later.


The implication seems to be that they're iterating on PI itself. For one they probably would have said if they were working on the link and also there's no release date for Dust yet so they do have time.


They did say they were working on the link...
Originally by: CCP Zulu
Dust 514/EVE link

(1 team, approximately 7 developers)

We‘re also committed to producing and launching an MMOFPS hybrid. What we‘re doing is unheard of in the gaming industry, namely linking together a console FPS (MMOFPS) with a classic PC MMORPG. Let that sink in for a minute. CCP is the first company in the world to do something like this. First. Ever. The „resource cost" on the EVE side for that is a team continuing on development of the Planetary Interaction feature (the primary link between the two) for the next three releases, delivering immediate, meaningful value into EVE Online and making game development history while they‘re at it.


From this thread's dev blog. Sounds like Zulu specifically saying that they are working on the link (this is even the title of the team!) He then says that they're going to iterate on PI (yay) but then immediately implies that it's in the context of the link. Does that mean actual PI game play? Who knows? Zulu surely could have told us so if it did.

My advice is to just do it with the PI stuff. Unless you really love playing the market it's too much work to run spreadsheets on what to build (which I did do for a while). Set down a really cheap command center, build a couple of buildings (extractors are 75,000 isk each!), learn from your mistakes.

It'll almost certainly be cheaper than spending hours of real time trying to figure out how it all optimally works. I did that and I still ended up tearing down my planets and re-building elsewhere.

If you have questions though, feel free to ask.

Cade Windstalker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.14 05:43:00 - [1937]
 

Edited by: Cade Windstalker on 14/08/2010 05:43:19
Originally by: Celia Therone
I don't even know what you're trying to say here. First you say they don't have grids on server even though they almost certainly do. And you say that in response to me saying that 3-d spaceship grids probably aren't very useful in Incarna because that will tend to trim things by line of sight rather than distance. But, again, game review sites are talking about CCP's 'new engine' for Incarna after interviewing ccp so I don't know why you're still arguing that they don't need one (and fluidly changing the definition of engine back and forth to keep the argument up).


I think we've kind of lost each other here but that bit about game review sites talking about their new engine for Incarna is what I was looking for earlier when I asked for proof. I haven't read any of those articles but they probably do know what they're talking about.

I wasn't changing the definition of engine, or at least I don't think I was, but grids are fairly high level stuff if they're part of the engine at all and on the server end they're not even engine they'd be database.

Originally by: Celia Therone
They did say they were working on the link...
Originally by: CCP Zulu
Dust 514/EVE link

(1 team, approximately 7 developers)

We‘re also committed to producing and launching an MMOFPS hybrid. What we‘re doing is unheard of in the gaming industry, namely linking together a console FPS (MMOFPS) with a classic PC MMORPG. Let that sink in for a minute. CCP is the first company in the world to do something like this. First. Ever. The „resource cost" on the EVE side for that is a team continuing on development of the Planetary Interaction feature (the primary link between the two) for the next three releases, delivering immediate, meaningful value into EVE Online and making game development history while they‘re at it.


From this thread's dev blog. Sounds like Zulu specifically saying that they are working on the link (this is even the title of the team!) He then says that they're going to iterate on PI (yay) but then immediately implies that it's in the context of the link. Does that mean actual PI game play? Who knows? Zulu surely could have told us so if it did.


I was referring to a later post (somewhere, if you really want I can dig it up) where a dev (probably Explorer) said that the Dust 514 team was iterating on PI for this next expansion.

Originally by: Celia Therone
My advice is to just do it with the PI stuff. Unless you really love playing the market it's too much work to run spreadsheets on what to build (which I did do for a while). Set down a really cheap command center, build a couple of buildings (extractors are 75,000 isk each!), learn from your mistakes.

It'll almost certainly be cheaper than spending hours of real time trying to figure out how it all optimally works. I did that and I still ended up tearing down my planets and re-building elsewhere.

If you have questions though, feel free to ask.



Thanks for the offer, that'd be appreciated. I understand the basics and the low barrier to entry but tracing goods to find out what turns into what-else is a pain in the arse. In general though, I just like figuring out optimal outcomes and discovering what's best, be it ship setups, metagame, or PI resource allocation XD

Celia Therone
Posted - 2010.08.14 06:58:00 - [1938]
 

Edited by: Celia Therone on 14/08/2010 07:25:50
Originally by: Cade Windstalker

Thanks for the offer, that'd be appreciated. I understand the basics and the low barrier to entry but tracing goods to find out what turns into what-else is a pain in the arse. In general though, I just like figuring out optimal outcomes and discovering what's best, be it ship setups, metagame, or PI resource allocation XD


Try

PI Spreadsheet
It's a MS Works spreadsheet (yeah, I know, sorry) but hopefully your spreadsheet program of choice can convert it. I tried importing it into google spreadsheet but the vlookups failed and I couldn't see why quickly. So you'll have to download it.

There are 5 groups of PI Goods:
Raw Materials (mined by extractors)
Processed Materials (from raw materials with basic industry)
Refined Commodities (from 2 processed mats with advanced industry)
Specialized Commodities (from 2-3 refined commodities with advanced industry)
Advanced Commodities (from 3 specialized & processed with high tech industry (barren/temperate worlds only))

Spreadsheet should tell you what the ingredients for each of the products are. If the vlookups work you can enter the jita prices and see what the profit margins look like. However note that it doesn't have import/export taxes factored in, or sales taxes. Also the profits only look at buying the previous level of goods and making that object, not buying the raw materials and making all the intermediates.

Oh, and if you want to invest lots of isk based on this spreadsheet (and note that the Jita numbers are many weeks out of date) then sanity check the numbers yourself. To my knowledge it's accurate but I got bored of PI a lot faster than I changed up PI output so it's possible errors are in there.

Planet Resources:
Gas Aqueous Liquids, Base Metals, Ionic Solutions, Noble Gas, Reactive Gas (U)
Oceanic Aqueous Liquids, Carbon Compounds, Complex Organisms, Micro Organisms, Planktic Colonies
Storm Aqueous Liquids, Base Metals, Ionic Solutions, Noble Gas, Suspended Plasma
Barren Aqueous Liquids, Base Metals, Carbon Compounds, Micro Organisms, Noble Metals
Ice Aqueous Liquids, Heavy Metals, Micro Organisms, Noble Gas, Planktic Colonies
Lava Base Metals, Felsic Magma (U), Heavy Metals, Non-CS Crystals, Suspended Plasma
Plasma Base Metals, Heavy Metals, Noble Metals, Non-CS Crystals, Suspended Plasma
Temperate Aqueous Liquids, Autotrophs (U), Carbon Compounds, Complex Organisms, Micro Organisms

Resources marked with a (U) are unique to that planet type.

Approximate relative mineral concentrations (highest white spot on planet):
Aqueous liquids : ? Water was too widely available for me to bother checking this.
Autotrophs : Temperate 65
Base Metals : Lava 74, Barren 72, Storm 68, Plasma 64, Gas 50
Carbon Compounds : Barren 80, Temperate 70, Oceanic 67
Complex Organisms : Oceanic 73, Temperate 60
Felsic Magma : Lava 73
Heavy Metals : Plasma 82, Ice 80, Lava 78
Ionic Solutions : Storm 78, Gas 58
Micro Organisms : Barren 72, Oceanic 70, Temperate 63, Ice 56
Noble Gas : Gas 72, Storm 68, Ice 50
Noble Metals : Barren 82, Plasma 63
Non-CS Crystals : Lava 69, Plasma 68
Planktic Colonies : Oceanic 91, Ice 65
Reactive Gas : Gas 90
Suspended Plasma : Plasma 81, Storm 73, Lava 70

These are from 0.1 low sec and fairly low sample size. I don't know if the ratios hold up in other security levels. Planetology 4, advanced planetology 3.

Ambassador Hound
Posted - 2010.08.16 01:38:00 - [1939]
 

Dear CCP,
I've played this game for years and what you've been saying have starting these fears.
Currently you are making a new game, not only that you are using the funding from eve? Are you Insane?
That's not the problem, in fact it is because not only are you taking the funding brought to you by the players of eve, it is that you have the arrogance to broadcast it to you eve player base and the suicidal fact that you choose to release it then too and only console gamers? That is quite frankly NUTS!
You might be bored of this question, but when are you going to fix rockets? and take your hands out of your pockets? and stop creating player base interaction with CCP like CSM council if you dont listen to a single thing they say? People want results to fix the problems with this game we all love to play!
Im surprised that at this point, with every patch you have ever released, you've promoted something that doesn't get finished because wit all new content, it's your pockets that get greased. You've never fixed a thing, stop giving us new content for a change, try to grant us the ability to functionally use them, and re-balance your database.

Yeay Fritg
Caldari
Confrerie de Kaedri
Cluster Of Rebirth
Posted - 2010.08.17 14:40:00 - [1940]
 

Edited by: Yeay Fritg on 17/08/2010 14:41:11
Originally by: CCP Atropos

As someone else stated earlier in the thread, EVE to us isn't just the current Flying in Space part we all know and love; it's Incarna, Dust 514, Flying in Space and then EVE Gate on the side. It's a fully immersive universe that our inner scifi geeks yearn to embrace and play within. We care passionately about the game, both now and in the future, and so you have to understand that all the developers CCP Zulu referrenced, to us, are working on EVE.
...
What I will do however is say to CCP Zulu that he should give his feedback here, again. It's a minefield in here, no doubt, but even if it's at the coffee machine, I'll be sure to remind him Razz


Any feedback or I misses a line ?

Simple one : Why not Eve Space bug Free and after Eve Full Live experience ?

Why ? : Eve Full Live Experience with All Bugs ?

Jarod Garamonde
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2010.08.21 20:39:00 - [1941]
 

I can stand to wait until next year to see the fleet fight lag issue fixed. But, I couldn't find a way to care less about Incarna. I'll use it about as often as I use PI..... which is never. Unless this "ambulation" feature will bring some kinds of rewards (in the form of ISK, and new ways of PvP'ing)... that might get me to use it.
So, let's just take solace in the fact that EVE will still be around. CCP doesn't "not give a crap about us"... they're trying to walk the razor's edge between giving a crap about their veteran players, and keeping their company alive. If such things were that easy, the US Army wouldn't be having the issues it's having, right now.... and I should know... I'm involved in both.

Tom Peeping
Posted - 2010.08.25 03:08:00 - [1942]
 

Edited by: Tom Peeping on 25/08/2010 03:10:42
Maybe this has already been discussed... prolly has...can't be bothered reading the whole thread to check but just to be another one to say it.


You've claimed in the past that you have a team devoted to issues raised by CSM. I can't help but note a certain lack of this in your report on what teams you have running. It suddenly becomes obvious that you do not have the team you claimed was working on this... Maybe you've tasked one or two individual things to other teams, but a team dedicated to solving the issues raised by CSM / player base? Your blog makes it look like it was just more marketing B.S.


edit... yep it has been said. Glad to see the B.S. is obvious to others as well.

Yeay Fritg
Caldari
Confrerie de Kaedri
Cluster Of Rebirth
Posted - 2010.08.25 15:40:00 - [1943]
 

Edited by: Yeay Fritg on 25/08/2010 15:40:27
CCP have a team devoted a team to discuss with CSM and to directly put in the trash the points...not to type lines of codes !

I'm ready to tell the opposite CCP if you can prove it otherwise all your Dev Blogs are just Vaporware Blogs.

Cpt Smasher
Posted - 2010.08.30 22:59:00 - [1944]
 

Wow.
65 pages.
3 days of reading.
Just Wow.

Yeay Fritg
Caldari
Confrerie de Kaedri
Cluster Of Rebirth
Posted - 2010.08.31 15:54:00 - [1945]
 

If you wanted a confirmation we need at least 18 months to get anything change here it's is :

CCP Interview

Yeay

Janya Rykayn
Posted - 2010.09.01 14:03:00 - [1946]
 

I'm curious, and this is a sincere question-- what other game out there even ALLOWS thousand-person fights?

Is there any?

I'm just wondering what makes people expect lag-free performance in that kind of environment. It's a giant technical challenge to say the least, to even make something like that possible in the first place.

Not to say that the lag isn't horrible. I don't get out to nullsec much lately and I'm sure it is terrible, but I just don't know what people expect or why they think that a game like this can be lag-free at all.

I'm personally flabbergasted that it runs as well as it does.

I'm not trying to be snarky or anything like that. I've just got a whole hell of a lot of experience with online games, probably longer than most Eve players have even been alive, and I wonder what gives people the idea that 1000-person, or even 200-person, engagements are going to be lag-free. It's amazing to me that they can happen it all.

I look at this game before me and I have to say I'm puzzled by all the hate for CCP. Sure, it isn't perfect, but it's pretty damn awesome in most respects. The best game in town. By far, I'd say.

What do you people expect to happen in a 1000-ship fleet fight?

Please.

Sral TBear
Shipwreck cove
Posted - 2010.09.01 15:47:00 - [1947]
 

Since starting with this game in 2005 i have seen and experienced alot of the isues that are mentioned here, but i also think that there is alot who simply cant se beyond fleet lag.

When your car gets a flat tyre, you loosen 4 bolts and put the spare on and put the 4 bolts back on, a simple 1 man/woman job, dont even have to dig up the correct tyre the correct tyre is right in the trunk.

When the "tyre" runs flat in eve, there is maby 500 milllion bolts, 800 million different type of spare Tyres" to choose from and after that you have to put 500 million bolts back on in the correct order.

Then why not have more working on it , more is better. Well how long wil it take to change a tyre if you have 8 people doing it?? proberbly longer since they first have to coordinate, then discuss and assign who should do what and then finaly work on it. Im pretty confident that ccp are using what they consider is the optimal persons working on the different task, to many can be bad.

If everyone just work on the same isue, there will be other things that plugs the bottle neck. The second fleet lag are minimised, the next group of 1000 people comes in and start screaming, why did you not use time on bla bla...

If you take the general input from the posts here and put it into cars well...

We all would drive Ford T`s, they would be perfect, be more reliable than anything else, but at the end stil an obsolete car...

TBear

Janya Rykayn
Posted - 2010.09.02 13:39:00 - [1948]
 

Edited by: Janya Rykayn on 02/09/2010 13:44:27
Quote:
i also think that there is alot who simply cant see beyond fleet lag.

Well, not only that, but the fleet lag complaints are analogous to the arsonists complaining that the building is on fire.

Again, what do they expect to happen when they throw a thousand ships into a fight? That's a million distance calculations per TICK. To say nothing of drones, guns, damage, transversal calculations, whatever else, in addition to all the other serverside calculations that need to happen to make EVE run at all.

What do they expect?

Next year, the same people will be complaining the same complaints. Next time it will be because 2000 ship fleet fights are causing lag. They will be saying "Look, it's still laggy!"

Please.

The fact that EVE runs AT ALL, or supports fleet fights that size AT ALL, EVER, is nothing short of astonishing. Those who think otherwise are only showing their own ignorance of the subject.

As I said before, there is a very easy solution available to CCP. It wouldn't necessarily be a good solution but it would be one that only ever affected those whose indignant howls are most shrill.

They could introduce system caps comparable to that of Jita, but topping out at something the system can easily handle. This could even be adaptive: as system lag increased, the cap would decrease until there was no more lag.

If I were CCP I'd be sorely tempted to do this. Don't want this to happen? Maybe quitting the squealing might be a great idea. They could very easily drive off a small and most ungrateful part of the playerbase who could be realistically said to be hogging the majority of the system resources.

Tawa Kea
Posted - 2010.09.03 19:18:00 - [1949]
 

Edited by: Tawa Kea on 03/09/2010 19:19:11
Originally by: Janya Rykayn

Please.

The fact that EVE runs AT ALL, or supports fleet fights that size AT ALL, EVER, is nothing short of astonishing. Those who think otherwise are only showing their own ignorance of the subject.




Care to enlighten the ignorant with your in-depth knowledge of Eve's server architecture?

I'm just asking because, you see, there are places/companies who manage millions of transactions every second, and no one seems 'astonished'.
So 40K players...It seems 'astonishing' that CCP cannot handle the load and, since its inception, is fighting the 'load lag'.

But surely, you will provide us with details about those issues.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.04 08:12:00 - [1950]
 

focus on jita and anti lag stuff for big fleet fights and nothing else and that sums up 2011

Oh and dust which will be on consoles only and fail cause its not on PC. erm about sums it up.

all the stuff that needs expanding fixing follow up will be left to whither for the next big shiny thing


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