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wr3cks
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.08.10 02:03:00 - [1891]
 

Edited by: wr3cks on 10/08/2010 02:18:41
Originally by: Cade Windstalker

condescension, refutation by feigned incomprehension, all written in the tone and style of the comic book store guy from The Simpsons



Okay, no more replying line by line as if we're on USENET.

You think Incarna is EVE, and not the WoD Alpha. Obviously, I (and many others) disagree. I guess you didn't understand that, previously, which is why you brag about your ability to multiply irrelevant numbers (and then parenthetically assert your conclusion without argument or proof).

I also think EVEgate is a failure, by the way, and has done nothing besides allow out-of-game evemail access at the cost of 3 minute waits to retrieve mail ingame.

And what's your source for the CCP dev count at the start of 2009? 300 devs worked on Apocrypha, though we're told some of them were "borrowed from other projects" so I guess they don't count, since we are to uncritically accept statements from CCP as gospel ("it's more like they gave it a huge boost with apocrypha"... oh, okay, if you say so!).

So 22 devs for inspace, 15 for debugging is 37, vs 87 for dust/WoD alpha/spacebook, PLUS the guys at WhiteWolf/Newcastle/Shanghai who can't even arguably-sorta be counted to be working on the company's flagship product and sole provider of revenue.

CCP has never shown themselves to be good at making money, as we seem to agree. Their latest product launches have been marked by bugs, poor quality, tardiness, and poor customer response. Financial and product management are intertwined. They've got 2 more games to come out and no extra money to develop them -- no publishing deal, no stock offering, nothing. Your response is, nothing to see here, move along!

The one job posting that has been updated/posted recently is for a lawyer with public company experience. The rest have been unfilled sitting for ages, as plenty of posters point out.

Judging from the timestamps of your 3 consecutive max-length posts, you've spent at least an hour (and probably more) penning verbose replies that consist largely of willful incomprehension and snide derision.

While I'm sure that's its own reward, your time might be better spent reading the thread if you care to understand the arguments being made. You're out of your element. Or, you can just continue to repeat CCP talking points and act baffled that anyone might disagree with them.

Hienz Doofenshmirtz
Posted - 2010.08.10 03:49:00 - [1892]
 

Edited by: Hienz Doofenshmirtz on 10/08/2010 03:49:13
and you sir are a fool. sure both incarna and dust may be world of darkness tests, any company that produces games with similar elemtents would be foolish not to take things they learned from one product and apply it to another one they are working on.

however I don't really care, the option of talking to an agent for angels in the heart of jita 4-4 station or in rens, or amarr, or hek would be great, it would allow someone like me, not in a major 0.0 alliance to be able to fly missions for them without having to take the space where the pirates 0.0 stations are.

and as for Dust, I'm looking forward to a fps game for my console system that shooting someone and winning a match actually mean something more than I had a good round.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.08.10 05:00:00 - [1893]
 

Quote:

As near as I can tell they're public but no stock is sold since it's owned by the employees and a couple firms. Not really suggestive of an IPO though. You're really reading WAY to much into that. Besides I thought those listings had been there for ages? ;)



Could you please elaborate on this?
Because in my understanding:

1) Their site states they are privately held.
2) Where can you find references at the employees being shareholders? I'd think it'd be more probable they are given shares as incentive (like in many other companies) but those are a fraction of the company value.
3) IPO, whoever (not you I suppose) states there's an IPO about did not prove it. An IPO would at least show commitment going public.
4) If a company would be public, they can still be out of exchanges. There are companies that sell shares but are not listed and depending on country laws they don't even need to prepare an IPO.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.10 08:47:00 - [1894]
 

Originally by: wr3cks

Okay, no more replying line by line as if we're on USENET.

You think Incarna is EVE, and not the WoD Alpha. Obviously, I (and many others) disagree. I guess you didn't understand that, previously, which is why you brag about your ability to multiply irrelevant numbers (and then parenthetically assert your conclusion without argument or proof).

I also think EVEgate is a failure, by the way, and has done nothing besides allow out-of-game evemail access at the cost of 3 minute waits to retrieve mail ingame.

And what's your source for the CCP dev count at the start of 2009? 300 devs worked on Apocrypha, though we're told some of them were "borrowed from other projects" so I guess they don't count, since we are to uncritically accept statements from CCP as gospel ("it's more like they gave it a huge boost with apocrypha"... oh, okay, if you say so!).

So 22 devs for inspace, 15 for debugging is 37, vs 87 for dust/WoD alpha/spacebook, PLUS the guys at WhiteWolf/Newcastle/Shanghai who can't even arguably-sorta be counted to be working on the company's flagship product and sole provider of revenue.

CCP has never shown themselves to be good at making money, as we seem to agree. Their latest product launches have been marked by bugs, poor quality, tardiness, and poor customer response. Financial and product management are intertwined. They've got 2 more games to come out and no extra money to develop them -- no publishing deal, no stock offering, nothing. Your response is, nothing to see here, move along!

The one job posting that has been updated/posted recently is for a lawyer with public company experience. The rest have been unfilled sitting for ages, as plenty of posters point out.

Judging from the timestamps of your 3 consecutive max-length posts, you've spent at least an hour (and probably more) penning verbose replies that consist largely of willful incomprehension and snide derision.

While I'm sure that's its own reward, your time might be better spent reading the thread if you care to understand the arguments being made. You're out of your element. Or, you can just continue to repeat CCP talking points and act baffled that anyone might disagree with them.

It is CCP's decision what they want to do with their product, not ours.

It is our decision whether to pay for that product, not CCP's.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.10 11:47:00 - [1895]
 

25 days etc.

The "holidays" excuse is all played out now. Can the PRC wellpaidwhiteknights come up with another excuse for us to mock please?

wizard87
Posted - 2010.08.10 11:53:00 - [1896]
 

Ah one of my fav Big Lebowski clips...

Using that analagy the community are Donnie and Walter, with CCP being the Dude.

All the Dude ever wanted was his rug back... Laughing

Hienz Doofenshmirtz
Posted - 2010.08.10 12:20:00 - [1897]
 

actually he wanted either compensation or an appology for it being done in the first place, it's the principal of the thing man

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.10 17:28:00 - [1898]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
25 days etc.

The "holidays" excuse is all played out now. Can the PRC wellpaidwhiteknights come up with another excuse for us to mock please?
Malcanis, how long are you still subbed for? I'm thinking of joining you.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.10 18:43:00 - [1899]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: Malcanis
25 days etc.

The "holidays" excuse is all played out now. Can the PRC wellpaidwhiteknights come up with another excuse for us to mock please?
Malcanis, how long are you still subbed for? I'm thinking of joining you.


Till the 28th, at 12:04 EVE time to be exact.

My expectation of any reason to resub has declined from its already low starting point. Really I just come here out of habit now, and as soon as this launches I'll probably pretty much stop bothering.

I'll keep an eye on the news to see if anything improves. And hey if it does, I have over a year's worth of PLEX stashed, plus I'll have completed Gallante BS 5 (CCP will surely fix lag or fix Gallante eventually amirite?). So if something particularly interesting happens I can always check it out without spending any actual money.

Cade Windstalker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.10 18:50:00 - [1900]
 

Originally by: Celia Therone
Actually it's just as often because it takes too long to implement. Either a competitor beats you to market or management (or the money) loses faith.


I don't think I've ever heard of a game being canceled because another game was released first. As for the other things, none of those seem in danger of happening. Moot point.

Originally by: Celia Therone
Er... Dominion and Tyrannis?


*shrugs*, I liked a lot of the changes those expansions brought. Besides which, I was referring to technical bugs. The original quote I was responding to mentioned "we can't do this" not "we think the forums will ***** about this gameplay decision".

Originally by: Celia Therone
If CCP was executing well with the reduced developer numbers then I don't think people would care. But it hasn't been. That's the problem.


It executed fine before that. Honestly though I'm personally inclined to chalk at least some of this up to reorganizing the dev strategy. That's not a very good reason to give though since there's no way to prove it either way even if we had everyone at CCP at a round table on the subject.


Originally by: Celia Therone
To me if you have to develop a new game engine then it counts as a new product (perhaps this is some confusion about the useage of product?) WoD, Dust and Incarna all need that. Arguably PI ought to have it.


I honestly don't know if Incarna needs a new engine or not. If it does then it's probably sharing engine code with Dust or WoD so not much to deal with there. Engines are, by design, surprisingly versatile and I don't think PI needs a new engine. That would just be a lot of work for not a lot of change. The engine is what runs the game and manages data (the physics engine, for example, does this for physics).

Originally by: Celia Therone
Cross-subsidization - taking money from MS to develop Dust as a console only game for a year then porting it o the PC. (I don't know for a fact that they did this but it's the only thing that makes what they're doing justifiable imho.) Developing a 3-D engine for Incarna that they then use in WoD (or vice versa).


I don't think we'll be seeing Dust ported to PC. I've only ever heard it described as a console only title, not "console only for the moment and we'll see...". CCP already has a good 3D engine, I don't know why they'd make a new one for Incarna or WoD.

Originally by: Celia Therone
It's more about how much work it takes to implement them and how similar they are to what you do already. Wormholes didn't need a new physics engine (rapid development, low bug count), WoD, Incarna and Dust all do (lots of work/debugging).


Again, Incarna definitely doesn't need a new physics engine unless they're adding some new physics we don't know about. WoD and Dust might because they have to deal with gravity and stuff and Eve doesn't but that's why they have separate teams of people working on them from Eve.

Originally by: Celia Therone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNhPig8inEY
1:00:48 section on PI starts.

CCP said it would have the 'same feel' as Civilization but not be a clone of it. Seriously. 1:02:45. You really watch that and take away "never more than management and getting resources."?



Yes, though perhaps I didn't communicate what I was thinking when I said management correctly (and maybe the devs didn't communicate "feel" properly). What I got from that video (I watched it last week when I saw Navigator's link) was that PI, beyond what it has now would include people based elements as opposed to just F-ing over the entire planet for money. So, cities, taxes, and keeping people happy. That stuff.

Cade Windstalker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.10 19:07:00 - [1901]
 

Originally by: wr3cks
Edited by: wr3cks on 10/08/2010 02:18:41
Originally by: Cade Windstalker

condescension, refutation by feigned incomprehension, all written in the tone and style of the comic book store guy from The Simpsons



Okay, first off. Grow up, this is Eve not the forums you used when you were twelve. Personal attacks are against forum rules.

Originally by: wr3cks
Okay, no more replying line by line as if we're on USENET.


Why not, it helps communicate what you're referring to and makes arguments more readable. It just takes more effort =)

Originally by: wr3cks
You think Incarna is EVE, and not the WoD Alpha. Obviously, I (and many others) disagree. I guess you didn't understand that, previously, which is why you brag about your ability to multiply irrelevant numbers (and then parenthetically assert your conclusion without argument or proof).


Well lets look at the facts. First let me admit that Incarna being in ANY way related to WoD never crossed my mind and here's why:

- There are features that I would expect from WoD that are HIGHLY unlikely to be absent form Incarna. These would include: jumping, possibly flying since these are vampires, large open environments, and skills. There are probably more but those seem big enough.

- There is a completely different team working on WoD from Eve and Incarna.

- WoD has nothing to do with Eve

Originally by: wr3cks
I also think EVEgate is a failure, by the way, and has done nothing besides allow out-of-game evemail access at the cost of 3 minute waits to retrieve mail ingame.


Eve Gate is still in development (very much so) and it's been stated that it's not really going to sway older players but the hope is that newer ones will use it. I definitely like the Evelopedia and that's part of Eve Gate.

Originally by: wr3cks
And what's your source for the CCP dev count at the start of 2009? 300 devs worked on Apocrypha, though we're told some of them were "borrowed from other projects" so I guess they don't count, since we are to uncritically accept statements from CCP as gospel ("it's more like they gave it a huge boost with apocrypha"... oh, okay, if you say so!).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCP_Games

Which got it from CCP's 2008 annual report. If you're not going to at least give the benefit of the doubt to CCP's press releases then this discussion is moot. Besides I make it a point not to argue with people this paranoid.

cont in next almost max length post =D

Cade Windstalker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.10 19:22:00 - [1902]
 

Originally by: wr3cks
So 22 devs for inspace, 15 for debugging is 37, vs 87 for dust/WoD alpha/spacebook, PLUS the guys at WhiteWolf/Newcastle/Shanghai who can't even arguably-sorta be counted to be working on the company's flagship product and sole provider of revenue.


Incarna is part of EVE. Eve Gate is part of EVE.

Yes, there are people at these other locations who are, probably, working on Dust and WoD. There are probably also people at both sites acting as site managers for Eve and, in the case of China, translators.

Originally by: wr3cks
CCP has never shown themselves to be good at making money, as we seem to agree. Their latest product launches have been marked by bugs, poor quality, tardiness, and poor customer response. Financial and product management are intertwined. They've got 2 more games to come out and no extra money to develop them -- no publishing deal, no stock offering, nothing. Your response is, nothing to see here, move along!


Actually I can't print my response to all of this here without a Dev moderating it away Very Happy

When has CCP shown themselves to be bad at making money? They've created a game with a very VERY loyal subscriber base, many of whom are willing to pay to maintain multiple accounts, and the population is still growing. They also bought out White Wolf. Where exactly did the money for that come from if they aren't making any?

I'd say all indicators point to CCP being fine.

Originally by: wr3cks
The one job posting that has been updated/posted recently is for a lawyer with public company experience. The rest have been unfilled sitting for ages, as plenty of posters point out.


No, as you point out. I read through the entire thread. The jobs page was brought up about half a dozen times. Some by devs and the rest by competent, reasonable, posters who were saying they didn't care to move to Iceland or otherwise wouldn't be applying for reason x, y, or z.

Originally by: wr3cks
Judging from the timestamps of your 3 consecutive max-length posts, you've spent at least an hour (and probably more) penning verbose replies that consist largely of willful incomprehension and snide derision.


I understand the situation just fine and I'm more than willing to spend 40 minutes or so (interspersed with other things) arguing for sanity and consideration. Not for CCP specifically, just in general.

Originally by: wr3cks
While I'm sure that's its own reward, your time might be better spent reading the thread if you care to understand the arguments being made.


I spent a week reading the thread, thank you very much.

Originally by: wr3cks
You're out of your element. Or, you can just continue to repeat CCP talking points and act baffled that anyone might disagree with them.


I'm supporting CCP's talking points because I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I know full well that puts me in the forum minority. (The overall minority being people that care enough to post on the forums) I really don't care though. I'll admit CCP is far from perfect, they've had their errors, and they'd probably admit to that too. They're also great innovators and they've done some stuff no one had even thought of before with Eve. They also, with very few exceptions, seem to care a lot about the community and the state of the game. That's just my opinion which I'm entitled to, just like you're entitled to yours. You're not entitled to spread blatant falsities though so I think everyone would appreciate it if you'd stop that.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.10 20:21:00 - [1903]
 

Edited by: Bomberlocks on 10/08/2010 20:22:00
Originally by: Malcanis
....
Originally by: Bomberlocks
Malcanis, how long are you still subbed for? I'm thinking of joining you.


Till the 28th, at 12:04 EVE time to be exact.

My expectation of any reason to resub has declined from its already low starting point. Really I just come here out of habit now, and as soon as this launches I'll probably pretty much stop bothering.

I'll keep an eye on the news to see if anything improves. And hey if it does, I have over a year's worth of PLEX stashed, plus I'll have completed Gallante BS 5 (CCP will surely fix lag or fix Gallante eventually amirite?). So if something particularly interesting happens I can always check it out without spending any actual money.
It's a pity I'm not really into fantasy games (not much of a gamer at all actually, just a sci fi nut that first loved eve because of the huge open space).

It'll be a pity to see you go, because you're a bright guy. Perhaps someone somewhere will realise what a golden opportunity this market niche presents and will eventually offer some competition (Homeworld online would be nice).

In any case, take care.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.10 22:01:00 - [1904]
 

I'm not discounting the possibility that CCP may yet surprise us. I'm just not investing much hope in it.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.10 22:13:00 - [1905]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
I'm not discounting the possibility that CCP may yet surprise us. I'm just not investing much hope in it.
I very much doubt that CCP will surpise us in any way that will be pleasant, but I do hope you'll still be around SHC from time to time (Also, WoT really is a lot more fun).

Celia Therone
Posted - 2010.08.11 00:03:00 - [1906]
 

Originally by: Cade Windstalker

I don't think I've ever heard of a game being canceled because another game was released first. As for the other things, none of those seem in danger of happening. Moot point.


With games they normally just release what they have and hope to recoup something. Daikatana is a great example. Experienced developer sets his sights too high, takes too long, realizes that the industry has moved past him, tries to upgrade his engine to be competitive and needs to rewrite, runs out of money and publishes a terrible, unfinished, game.

Originally by: Cade Windstalker

Besides which, I was referring to technical bugs. The original quote I was responding to mentioned "we can't do this" not "we think the forums will ***** about this gameplay decision".



The aim of dominion was a new sov system to reduce blobbing and make null sec warfare more dynamic. Treaties would be used to let large alliances give smaller groups access to space.

Treaties were cut out just before release (i.e. CCP couldn't delvier and didn't realize it). Fleet fights became almost unplayable (cluster crashes and lag - CCP couldn't deliver). Blobbing became even more prevalent (design fail).

Look, I'm not trying to say everything CCP does is crap, EVE has been a very enjoyable game with surprising staying power for me. But it seems pretty clear that they certainly are capable of failing. Dust, Incarna and WoD are all much larger and harder projects than Dominion so the risk of failure is higher as are the consequences.

Originally by: Cade Windstalker

I honestly don't know if Incarna needs a new engine or not. If it does then it's probably sharing engine code with Dust or WoD so not much to deal with there. Engines are, by design, surprisingly versatile and I don't think PI needs a new engine. That would just be a lot of work for not a lot of change. The engine is what runs the game and manages data (the physics engine, for example, does this for physics).

Incarna definitely has a new engine, presumably shared with WoD. The Dust engine is completely different (licensed unreal engine 3). Unreal Engine 4 is supposed to come out around 2012 (quite possibly the time CCP's Dust heavy development ends?) thus putting CCP directly in competition only a generation behind in engines.

Originally by: Cade Windstalker

I don't think we'll be seeing Dust ported to PC. I've only ever heard it described as a console only title, not "console only for the moment and we'll see...". CCP already has a good 3D engine, I don't know why they'd make a new one for Incarna or WoD.


They need night/day, water effects, land forms, walking on surfaces, much better collision detection, atmospheric effects, gravity etc. My guess is the deal with MS prevents them from saying that they'll port it to the PC because MS made the deal to promote XBox. But that is speculative.

Originally by: Cade Windstalker

Again, Incarna definitely doesn't need a new physics engine unless they're adding some new physics we don't know about.


I'm pretty sure there will be gravity in stations. And chairs, doorways, elevators, pools... If moving your character is remotely like moving spaceships then it's going to be several standard deviations beyond regular fail.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.11 08:11:00 - [1907]
 

Originally by: Cade Windstalker
Originally by: wr3cks
So 22 devs for inspace, 15 for debugging is 37, vs 87 for dust/WoD alpha/spacebook, PLUS the guys at WhiteWolf/Newcastle/Shanghai who can't even arguably-sorta be counted to be working on the company's flagship product and sole provider of revenue.


Incarna is part of EVE. Eve Gate is part of EVE...


Technically true, they're just not parts of EVE that most of the people who play EVE are interested in (at least not to an extent that reflects the resources allocated to them.) 10 guys on EVEgate and 0 on the balance team? That's like a resteraunt with 10 guys looking after the window display and no-one assigned to buying the food.

Anyway, 26 days and so forth. I suppose I should concede that CCP have now successfully managed my expectations.

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2010.08.11 11:20:00 - [1908]
 

Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 11/08/2010 11:23:30
Hi Malcanis, I am considering getting off the ship too.

The horrible UI we have been provided for PI has drained my willingness to log in. I assumed that it would be THE top priority for the PI team to change this but instead they are working on the integration with Dust (according to dev blog). Besides, I have finally found another MMO that is attracting my attention.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.11 12:39:00 - [1909]
 

Meh, I'm not really interested in other MMOs. EVE was a bit of a one-off for me in that respect. If Bioware had put some kind of Massively Multiplayer version of Tie Fighter into Star Wars: TOR I'd be all over that.

As it is I'm kind of soured on the whole MMO thing right now tbh. I'm beginning to suspect that the kind of MMO we want can't really be developed by a for-profit organisation.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.11 15:35:00 - [1910]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Meh, I'm not really interested in other MMOs. EVE was a bit of a one-off for me in that respect. If Bioware had put some kind of Massively Multiplayer version of Tie Fighter into Star Wars: TOR I'd be all over that.

As it is I'm kind of soured on the whole MMO thing right now tbh. I'm beginning to suspect that the kind of MMO we want can't really be developed by a for-profit organisation.
I have been seriously considering offering help to the guy who is coding Infinity. It would be a royal time sink, but the guy has patience, perseverance and is pretty talented, too and his version of internet spaceships looks extremely interesting.

Cade Windstalker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.11 15:56:00 - [1911]
 

Originally by: Celia Therone
With games they normally just release what they have and hope to recoup something. Daikatana is a great example. Experienced developer sets his sights too high, takes too long, realizes that the industry has moved past him, tries to upgrade his engine to be competitive and needs to rewrite, runs out of money and publishes a terrible, unfinished, game.


That's not a game being canceled though, that's features being cut and THAT happens all the time. Like, to every game ever pretty much.

I'll admit CCP seems to need to set their targets a bit lower but every time you miss a target like this you learn so very valuable stuff about how hard it is to implement these things in your current game environment and you'll see these things being done less by people who have had it happen before.

Originally by: Celia Therone
The aim of dominion was a new sov system to reduce blobbing and make null sec warfare more dynamic. Treaties would be used to let large alliances give smaller groups access to space.

Treaties were cut out just before release (i.e. CCP couldn't delvier and didn't realize it). Fleet fights became almost unplayable (cluster crashes and lag - CCP couldn't deliver). Blobbing became even more prevalent (design fail).


There was probably some major issue that was uncovered at the last minute that made treaties unready for release with Dominion. That doesn't excuse the miss-step but it's something that does happen, especially in MMOs where game security is such a major concern.

Originally by: Celia Therone
Look, I'm not trying to say everything CCP does is crap, EVE has been a very enjoyable game with surprising staying power for me. But it seems pretty clear that they certainly are capable of failing. Dust, Incarna and WoD are all much larger and harder projects than Dominion so the risk of failure is higher as are the consequences.


All game companies failboat at one time or another. I'll agree that Dust and WoD are larger projects. They're also new though and that means they have a lot more freedom with workarounds as opposed to in Eve where some clever hack probably breaks more stuff than it fixes.

Call me an optimist but I think WoD and Dust will turn out great and I don't think they're really relevant to this discussion of Eve and it's problems and features.

Originally by: Celia Therone
Incarna definitely has a new engine, presumably shared with WoD. The Dust engine is completely different (licensed unreal engine 3). Unreal Engine 4 is supposed to come out around 2012 (quite possibly the time CCP's Dust heavy development ends?) thus putting CCP directly in competition only a generation behind in engines.


Actually the Unreal engine tends to see a slow adoption rate because devs have to learn the changes before they can make games with it. You'll see Unreal 3 games for at least a year or two after Unreal 4 drops so Dust won't really be lagging at all.

Originally by: Celia Therone
They need night/day, water effects, land forms, walking on surfaces, much better collision detection, atmospheric effects, gravity etc. My guess is the deal with MS prevents them from saying that they'll port it to the PC because MS made the deal to promote XBox. But that is speculative.


What does this list of physics features have to do with 360 vs PC? Look at Just Cause 2. That's one of the prettiest games I've seen (even on INSANELY low settings) and it runs great on consoles. Having an NVidia graphics card on PC adds all of two options and those aren't that impressive.

Originally by: Celia Therone
I'm pretty sure there will be gravity in stations. And chairs, doorways, elevators, pools... If moving your character is remotely like moving spaceships then it's going to be several standard deviations beyond regular fail.



So they have to add some physics or interaction code. This doesn't mean they need to start from scratch on a new engine though. And yeah, double click to walk would be bad XD

Cade Windstalker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.11 15:59:00 - [1912]
 

Edited by: Cade Windstalker on 11/08/2010 16:00:27
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Cade Windstalker
Originally by: wr3cks
So 22 devs for inspace, 15 for debugging is 37, vs 87 for dust/WoD alpha/spacebook, PLUS the guys at WhiteWolf/Newcastle/Shanghai who can't even arguably-sorta be counted to be working on the company's flagship product and sole provider of revenue.


Incarna is part of EVE. Eve Gate is part of EVE...


Technically true, they're just not parts of EVE that most of the people who play EVE are interested in (at least not to an extent that reflects the resources allocated to them.) 10 guys on EVEgate and 0 on the balance team? That's like a resteraunt with 10 guys looking after the window display and no-one assigned to buying the food.

Anyway, 26 days and so forth. I suppose I should concede that CCP have now successfully managed my expectations.


Personally I'm looking forward to Incarna, having an actual Avatar, and walking in stations. You just won't hear much from the people who DO want these features because they have no reason to get on the forums and ***** that they're finally getting what they want Wink. As for balance it sounds like each team is responsible for balancing features that they handle probably with the over arching lead designers managing overall game balance. Ten people managing ONLY game balance would be a waste of man-power and just create a huge argument >.>

Edit:

Oh yeah and as along time fan of Infinity I'll admit it looks REALLY cool. You'd never see something like that developed by a game company though. Too much work for too long without any returns. That's the beauty of the indie community though. You can take eight years to make something cool like that =)

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2010.08.11 16:20:00 - [1913]
 

Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 11/08/2010 16:22:01
Yes, Incarna... it will likely consist of leaving your pod, look at it and go back into it.

Seriously, CCP has set precedence that it is ok to launch a new game feature while cutting many essential parts from that feature, making it enjoyable for no more than a month (now I am reasonable). They then NEVER EVER add those essential parts but move on to the next new feature.

If it was not so pitiful I would laugh. COSMOS, factional warfare and, the most "hilarious" one, Planetary Interaction in Tyrannis which had absolutely nothing to do with Tyrannis or with what the CCPs own video trailer proclaimed.

I think it is finally time not only to vote with my pocket, but also to stop giving respect to a company who is constantly failing expectations and seems incapable of understanding what they are doing wrong. Even when told.

Celia Therone
Posted - 2010.08.11 21:59:00 - [1914]
 

Originally by: Cade Windstalker

That's not a game being canceled though, that's features being cut and THAT happens all the time. Like, to every game ever pretty much.

There's a world of difference between a feature being cut from a game and the game still being excellent and a feature being cut from an awful game that makes it not worth playing.

That being said... Blizzard cancelled:
Warcraft Adventures: Lord of the Clans
Shattered Nations
Starcraft: Ghost

Originally by: Cade Windstalker

Actually the Unreal engine tends to see a slow adoption rate because devs have to learn the changes before they can make games with it. You'll see Unreal 3 games for at least a year or two after Unreal 4 drops so Dust won't really be lagging at all.

Epic claim that they are already developing games internally with engine 4 which will presumably be released around the time that they release the engine itself.

Originally by: Cade Windstalker

Originally by: Celia Therone
They need night/day, water effects, land forms, walking on surfaces, much better collision detection, atmospheric effects, gravity etc. My guess is the deal with MS prevents them from saying that they'll port it to the PC because MS made the deal to promote XBox. But that is speculative.


What does this list of physics features have to do with 360 vs PC? Look at Just Cause 2. That's one of the prettiest games I've seen (even on INSANELY low settings) and it runs great on consoles. Having an NVidia graphics card on PC adds all of two options and those aren't that impressive.


It was in response to your comment that "CCP already has a good 3D engine, I don't know why they'd make a new one for Incarna or WoD." I was pointing out some of the vast array of things that their current engine doesn't do that it would need to to be competitive with existing games. Of course we already know that CCP are developing a new engine for Incarna so I have no idea why you're trying to argue that this isn't necessary?

If Incarna was slated to include storming and defending stations then I think it'd be getting a much more positive response from the EVE community because it'd be slated to have actual game play in it. Whenever I see a game that doesn't have actual game play (like PI) I find it very difficult to remain optimistic that it will be fun to play for any significant length of time. And a game that isn't fun to play isn't much of a game.

Cosmic Rainbow
Posted - 2010.08.12 00:04:00 - [1915]
 

For me, EVE is pretty much dead unfortunately. After 5 years (account time, probably more like 3 years) of playing, my interest is pretty much gone.

Why you ask?
I cant play in 0.0. The lag is horrid, and the mechanics are such that it requires a lot of 'online' time to contribute and plan. Doesnt work for me. Even if I had the time, I wouldnt touch it due to lag.
Missions are mind numbingly boring. No thanks.
Faction Wafare? No thanks. Broken imo.
PI? No thanks. Click fest, boring and dull. Requirs a lot of 'online' time and constant clicking to make it some what viable.
Market trading? Done that too. the .1 ISK game is no fun. No thanks.
Mining? I'd rather poke out my eye with a rusty spoon. Mind numbing and boring. No thanks.
Wormholes? I was running WH's - but they are now SUPER saturated. Every WH I go into is taken. Im guessing thats the results of having most of your game broken and one area working just fine.
Low sec pvp? Low sec is generally acknowledged as being broken, but group ganking haulers and lone ships isnt my idea of fun.

So....Im just about wrapped up with EVE. Their 18 month development plan is not inspiring to say the least, and I find it very unlikely they will address issues I have with the game for 2-3 years. So maybe Ill check back in then.

No you cant haz my stuff.

Ricgard
Posted - 2010.08.12 00:45:00 - [1916]
 

After three years of playing and training my toons, I'm finally getting the skill sets to play EVE the way I want to. The sad part is, all I'm doing now is logging on to manage my accounts and update my training queue.

My primary problem is lag. It affects many aspects of gameplay for me. (I have an up-to-date gaming PC with a dependable broadband connection. It ain't me.) Add to that the "broken" features and I'm a very frustrated gamer.

There are three MMOs on the horizon that have my interest: Star Wars The Old Republic, Jumpgate Evolution, and Black Prophecy.

CCP, I don't want WIS/Incarna/Ambulation. I had that in E&B and in Star Trek Online (other games too) and it adds to the grind.

I don't want EVEGate. I have Face Book.

I want a game where I don't die because it takes 3 minutes for me to see what's going on. I want a game where the skills I train work as they are supposed to. I want FW to be fun. I want to do COSMOS missions without fighting off farming bots. I want to see a six man corp being able to affect the sov of 0.0. I want to be able to find an "unknown system" that isn't filled to capacity.

I'm beginning to think I want a different game.

Please CCP, tune up EVE so that it works.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.12 07:28:00 - [1917]
 

CCP, at the risk of sounding very redundant, I urge you to at least review the numbers of experienced players leaving the game. Last night I saw that Kane Rizzel, the notorious/famous pirate of Eifer in Minmatar losec, has also left the game, as has Ralara, the organizer of the Golem gankfests in Motsu, the Caldari missioning hub.

People like these players might be the bane of empire carebears, but they add a lot to depth and colour to the game and they give aspiring pirates a role model.

It's kind of sad to see Eve become a paradise for carebears.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.12 10:31:00 - [1918]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 12/08/2010 10:32:45
27 days; surely the internal blame-assigning and buck-passing must have died down a bit by now, and we can be told whether and how things are going to change or that we can shut our noise holes and suck it up?

EDIT: If it's the latter, dont be afraid of saying it. It's not like we can get any more dispirited or pessemistic, so there's nothing much to lose there.

wr3cks
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.08.12 20:04:00 - [1919]
 


Cade Windstalker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.12 20:06:00 - [1920]
 

Originally by: Celia Therone

There's a world of difference between a feature being cut from a game and the game still being excellent and a feature being cut from an awful game that makes it not worth playing.

That being said... Blizzard cancelled:
Warcraft Adventures: Lord of the Clans
Shattered Nations
Starcraft: Ghost


Yup, and for every game that gets canceled after announce, due to bad response or whatever else, there are dozens that never see the light of day. That's what I mean when I say that it's extremely uncommon. Also compared to the number of games released, for that matter.

Originally by: Celia Therone
Epic claim that they are already developing games internally with engine 4 which will presumably be released around the time that they release the engine itself.


And I believe them. They can also work with the engine pre-release a lot more than licensees can. UT3 is a good engine and it'll still be a good engine in a few years. So what if it doesn't render nose hairs or whatever?

Originally by: Celia Therone
It was in response to your comment that "CCP already has a good 3D engine, I don't know why they'd make a new one for Incarna or WoD." I was pointing out some of the vast array of things that their current engine doesn't do that it would need to to be competitive with existing games. Of course we already know that CCP are developing a new engine for Incarna so I have no idea why you're trying to argue that this isn't necessary?


First off, 3D engine =/= Gameplay Engine =/= Physics Engine

Yes, they may need to tweak or re-write bits of their engine for Incarna but unless you can link me to a press release that states "we're making a whole new engine for this" then I'll remain unconvinced.

Originally by: Celia Therone
If Incarna was slated to include storming and defending stations then I think it'd be getting a much more positive response from the EVE community because it'd be slated to have actual game play in it. Whenever I see a game that doesn't have actual game play (like PI) I find it very difficult to remain optimistic that it will be fun to play for any significant length of time. And a game that isn't fun to play isn't much of a game.


PI isn't its own game. It isn't meant to be. It's supposed to be, at best, a sub-game or mini-game within Eve. Besides, we don't actually know what's going to be in Incarna. Not really. We just know "walking in stations".

As for "storming and defending stations would shut people up" no, it'd **** off a whole different subset of the population who want Eve to not turn into an FPS where you run around in a spaceship sometimes. Personally I wouldn't like having part of Eve be about boarding stations for a number of reasons no one wants to hear.

Originally by: Malcanis
Edited by: Malcanis on 12/08/2010 10:32:45
27 days; surely the internal blame-assigning and buck-passing must have died down a bit by now, and we can be told whether and how things are going to change or that we can shut our noise holes and suck it up?

EDIT: If it's the latter, dont be afraid of saying it. It's not like we can get any more dispirited or pessemistic, so there's nothing much to lose there.


CCP_Fallout said on twitter yesterday, so it should still be visible:

Q: Could we get a dev blog about CCP's player question response and interaction policies?

A: (three tweets, three lines)

no :) something like that needs to be more fluid than set in stone, but we won't speak about individual cases...

... with extremely few exceptions, and only Guard and Grimmi may make those types of commentary

and i really mean extremely few.


This is why we haven't heard anything and this general sort of policy is pretty much industry standard.


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