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Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.07.27 10:09:00 - [1711]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 27/07/2010 10:09:54
Originally by: Malcanis
11 days since this devblog, and the ensuing player response.

Still awaiting the Transparent™ response with great interest.


/signed

I know you're still partly on vacation, CCP, and may want to wait till everyone, who's important, is back in business, but the interest in your answers, decisions and reasons remains strong.

Ressiv
Massive PVPness
Posted - 2010.07.27 11:39:00 - [1712]
 

Edited by: Ressiv on 27/07/2010 11:39:09
Ehrm ... havent they pretty much done so already in all the replys they made ?

They also gave a few solid reasons to not be able to discuss some other things or promise dates and/or make promises in general. If you keep asking those things, I wonder if you ever learned the true meaning of 'can not'.

It's origin can be diverse, but does not leave much room for interpretation Rolling Eyes




PC l0adletter
Posted - 2010.07.27 13:05:00 - [1713]
 

Originally by: CeneUJiti
Also, be cool and stay in character like ISD people. Its not lag and desyncs, its "spatial anomalies".


I lol'd

Oche Firestar
Silent Knight Industries - Virtual Tech
Posted - 2010.07.27 14:00:00 - [1714]
 

Looks like we might get some insight from Hellmar's 2010 CGDC keynote address on what CCP is doing.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.27 14:04:00 - [1715]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 27/07/2010 14:04:26
Originally by: Ressiv
Edited by: Ressiv on 27/07/2010 11:39:09
Ehrm ... havent they pretty much done so already in all the replys they made ?

They also gave a few solid reasons to not be able to discuss some other things or promise dates and/or make promises in general. If you keep asking those things, I wonder if you ever learned the true meaning of 'can not'.

It's origin can be diverse, but does not leave much room for interpretation Rolling Eyes


I'm not interested in what a few individual devs have commented on about their narrow areas of expertise (well actually I am, but it's not really what we're asking for here).

I'm interested in seeing what CCP as a whole is going to do about this situation. To date, all we've seen is the standard "send in a few of the more personable devs as damage control then hope the whole thing blows over" strategy, while carrying on exactly as before.

That's up to them of course. One would have hoped that 58 pages of players pleading for better communication and for devs that were actually interested in what the players wanted, coupled with 85 pages of near unanimous support for significantly increased efforts on repairing exising issues would have been an indicator that it's not a very good choice, but still, it's their ball to play.


11 days gone, 32 days left, and still hoping...

Haven Wind
Posted - 2010.07.27 14:12:00 - [1716]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Malcanis
11 days since this devblog, and the ensuing player response.

Still awaiting the Transparent™ response with great interest.



quoting oneself does not make you a tool.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.27 14:25:00 - [1717]
 

Originally by: Haven Wind
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Malcanis
11 days since this devblog, and the ensuing player response.

Still awaiting the Transparent™ response with great interest.



quoting oneself does not make you a tool.


Reading the original post might stop you looking like one.

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.07.27 14:46:00 - [1718]
 

Edited by: Virtuozzo on 27/07/2010 14:47:57
Originally by: Oche Firestar
Looks like we might get some insight from Hellmar's 2010 CGDC keynote address on what CCP is doing.


That's marketing. Exposure management, etc. It's really sad, but these days you just can't rely on any information they channel through such formats any more. Sad as it is, it's even becoming visible at the Fanfests. There is such a concept as "over exposure", along with other concepts like "saturation", "media speed", and so forth.

And then you read in the CSM they want to work on "expectation management", yeah, might be an idea to ask which definition they apply to that Very Happy

Haven Wind
Posted - 2010.07.27 15:49:00 - [1719]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Haven Wind
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Malcanis
11 days since this devblog, and the ensuing player response.

Still awaiting the Transparent™ response with great interest.



quoting oneself does not make you a tool.


Reading the original post might stop you looking like one.


Don't be upset, I'm defending you here.

Cindjin
Posted - 2010.07.27 16:06:00 - [1720]
 

Ok...

So does this mean that in the near future I will be forced to play an aspect of a FPS and have my ships and colonies destroyed by 14 yo's playing Xbox?

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.07.27 16:16:00 - [1721]
 

There's a thread on UI improvements in the Assembly Hall. The body of the proposal is by CSM Trebor Daehdoo, and is posted on the CSM Wiki.

In the very first line, Trebor mentions that the UI team has been reinforced. This is obviously a new development and I have an idea it might very well be due to the massive player protest in this thread (partially the bad press, and partially player anger driving many vets to quit). I actually don't expect CCP to lose face and directly respond to the player comments with any admission of mistakes made, but I do think they might back away from their original proposal of neglecting Eve for such a long period.

So, to all of you who claimed that CCP doesn't listen and your voice counts for nothing, I say that your voice DOES count for something and your wallet even more so.

P.S. CCP, fix the UI, especially with respect to the low hanging fruit:
1. Get rid of the 100 KM look-at limit.
2. Make Bookmarks able to be dragged to chat and mail.
3. Enable player defined lists for orbit and keep-at distances.
4. Make keyboard shortcuts an alternative to right clicking.
5. Clean up the messy items in the UI (remove waypoint in overview, separator for trash item).
6. Font
7. Make window controls bigger or user definable.

If these are being worked on then I definitely won't quit, as these are the things that drive me crazy on a daily basis in eve.

SkinSin
Posted - 2010.07.27 16:55:00 - [1722]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks
In the very first line, Trebor mentions that the UI team has been reinforced. This is obviously a new development and I have an idea it might very well be due to the massive player protest in this thread (partially the bad press, and partially player anger driving many vets to quit). I actually don't expect CCP to lose face and directly respond to the player comments with any admission of mistakes made, but I do think they might back away from their original proposal of neglecting Eve for such a long period.

So, to all of you who claimed that CCP doesn't listen and your voice counts for nothing, I say that your voice DOES count for something and your wallet even more so.

I believe the phrase goes "I'll believe it when I see it".
Namely, when CCP are man enough to step forward, say they were wrong and that they are devoting extra time/man power to something and then detailing exactly what they're going to do, by when, and then when I see the finished product, then I'll believe it.

everything else should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Uicjhorra
Posted - 2010.07.27 17:20:00 - [1723]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks
There's a thread on UI improvements in the Assembly Hall. The body of the proposal is by CSM Trebor Daehdoo, and is posted on the CSM Wiki.

In the very first line, Trebor mentions that the UI team has been reinforced. This is obviously a new development and I have an idea it might very well be due to the massive player protest in this thread (partially the bad press, and partially player anger driving many vets to quit). I actually don't expect CCP to lose face and directly respond to the player comments with any admission of mistakes made, but I do think they might back away from their original proposal of neglecting Eve for such a long period.

So, to all of you who claimed that CCP doesn't listen and your voice counts for nothing, I say that your voice DOES count for something and your wallet even more so.

P.S. CCP, fix the UI, especially with respect to the low hanging fruit:
1. Get rid of the 100 KM look-at limit.
2. Make Bookmarks able to be dragged to chat and mail.
3. Enable player defined lists for orbit and keep-at distances.
4. Make keyboard shortcuts an alternative to right clicking.
5. Clean up the messy items in the UI (remove waypoint in overview, separator for trash item).
6. Font
7. Make window controls bigger or user definable.

If these are being worked on then I definitely won't quit, as these are the things that drive me crazy on a daily basis in eve.


/Agreed.

I think the UI is a perfect starter for CCP to make us believe that this game is not lost. It's a thing broken for years, and we could actually SEE the movement in a better direction.

CCP - I think it's time for Your move.

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2010.07.27 18:33:00 - [1724]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks
I actually don't expect CCP to lose face and directly respond to the player comments with any admission of mistakes made, but I do think they might back away from their original proposal of neglecting Eve for such a long period.



Worse than loosing face, if CCP were to openly admit that the forum raging has persuaded them to change their plan, it would only encourage more forum raging every time someone doesn't like the plan; and there's always someone that doesn't like the plan.

IMO, the best thing they can do is to say they'll take our feedback into consideration, not tell us if or how they're revising the plan, but start a push to get some high profile items fixed for a Septemberish release. Along with the patch notes for that release, they can say "See, we told you we weren't leaving EvE to rot..."

Memorya
Posted - 2010.07.27 19:04:00 - [1725]
 


Here are few major flaws, which CCP does not want to know!


- If there is insane flux of new players in EVE universe, how the **** will the cluster support it ? IT WONT support, it will die instanly (65k+ loged in).

- Seriusly, wtf CCP as a company want's to compete with WoW or other mmorpg's Rolling Eyes (retarted as hell), EVE is own niche on the market.... Rolling Eyes

- Even if only 20-40k new players will come into EVE due Incarna expansion, Ticket sistem will collapse <---- 1-2 weeks waiting time if not a lot more.



2-3 years no development on EVE ? Well Mr. Zulu, say goodbye to the playerbase of EVE.



I posted with my main character.

Cinori Aluben
Minmatar
Gladiators of Rage
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.07.27 19:38:00 - [1726]
 

So, 58 pages, and really truly, not much has changed from CCP's end, but a lot has developed from the players. Frustrations are on the rise, justified emoragequits from forum moguls, quite a large amount of input from the CSM as well (NJ btw to Mynxee and Trebor).
A couple of my own personal observations:
  1. There are a few MMOs hot on the horizon that I guarantee CCP is worried about, Star Wars: The Old Republic being the primary. Many (tho admittedly not all) of us got our start in SciFi with Star Wars, so EVE definitely has something worry about here. Now with Space Combat being announced for that game (tho it obviously won't be as deep as EVE), CCP has even more to bite their fingernails over. [And hell, I saw a ROADSIDE BILLBOARD in downtown San Diego (which costs a crapload of money)for DC Universe Online, AND they just procured two iconic voice actors including Mark Hamill for The Joker to participate in that game!] I'd be willing to bet this is one large reason for their development schedule for Incarna and Dust 514, and prioritization thereof.

  2. Fleet Lag is completely debilitating normal 0.0 engagements, and causing a huge amount of strife and annoyance within 0.0 (which is by all intents and purposes the backbone of EVE) and even some lowsec playerbase. As mentioned already, this is the central pull of your marketing campaign, yet, it's the worst part of your game.

  3. The general lack of developmental care for the existing game and CCP's disdain for the very vocal desire of it's playerbase is overwhelming, appalling, and offending, as gleaned from the OP devblog, CSM minutes, and the oft-condescending and attempted confusion-mongering remarks from CCP reps hereafter. Sorry to make this analogy, but TBCH, the last time I saw a group of devs this blantantly say "F U" to their playerbase was SWG, and we all know where that ended up.


Given the time it takes to develop the hugely new content they've lined up for themselves, and the time it takes to fix their existing features, CCP is basically between a rock and a hard place here. For that, I feel for you CCP, but all it means is you guys seriously have to step it up yet again... take CCP to yet another level of Excellence (O shiz I used that word). You've always competed successfully with corporate giants in the industry, and kept your extremely deep and fulfilling niche going here. Don't get so caught up with expansion pursuits that you lose track of what has kept players loyal. We can't get EVE out of our blood, but we also won't stand for a broken or stagnant game (or the middle finger either).

I said it all throughout my CSM campaign (which I was in top 20 of in votes), and it seems to have become the overriding theme of the CSM since, and the overriding theme of this entire thread: Fix the Little Things First! Focus one single expansion, and your ad-campaign therefor, on tightening and honing this game. You will get LOADS of returning customers, which is like new customers but better, bc they'll more fully enrich and deepen your game that you so avidly and publicly claim to love. THEN, after you've solidified your foundation, expand and build a superstructure!

I know you never forget it, bc you're a business, but remember that we the players are not only paying for what has already been developed, we're investing in the future of this game. And if we don't like the future as proposed, we'll discontinue investing. I personally can no longer rationalize 7 accts anymore, and will only PLEX my main while I play StarCraft 2 and wait for SWTOR, til ISK runs out... unless I see something that makes me change my mind.

Please CCP, change all of our minds.



Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.27 20:27:00 - [1727]
 

Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow
Originally by: Bomberlocks
I actually don't expect CCP to lose face and directly respond to the player comments with any admission of mistakes made, but I do think they might back away from their original proposal of neglecting Eve for such a long period.



Worse than loosing face, if CCP were to openly admit that the forum raging has persuaded them to change their plan, it would only encourage more forum raging every time someone doesn't like the plan; and there's always someone that doesn't like the plan.

IMO, the best thing they can do is to say they'll take our feedback into consideration, not tell us if or how they're revising the plan, but start a push to get some high profile items fixed for a Septemberish release. Along with the patch notes for that release, they can say "See, we told you we weren't leaving EvE to rot..."


There have been high emotions in this thread for sure, but also a great deal of very constructive and insightful posts as well. In fact an amazingly high ratio of these.

There comes a point where the best path really is to swallow one's pride, admit error, and correct one's course.


In any case the forum :rage: precedent was set years ago (eg: nanonerf, CONCORD boosts etcetera et ad nausuem).

Racknor
The Salty Dogs
Posted - 2010.07.27 22:12:00 - [1728]
 

Edited by: Racknor on 27/07/2010 23:07:54
Edited by: Racknor on 27/07/2010 22:12:57
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow
Originally by: Bomberlocks
I actually don't expect CCP to lose face and directly respond to the player comments with any admission of mistakes made, but I do think they might back away from their original proposal of neglecting Eve for such a long period.



Worse than loosing face, if CCP were to openly admit that the forum raging has persuaded them to change their plan, it would only encourage more forum raging every time someone doesn't like the plan; and there's always someone that doesn't like the plan.

IMO, the best thing they can do is to say they'll take our feedback into consideration, not tell us if or how they're revising the plan, but start a push to get some high profile items fixed for a Septemberish release. Along with the patch notes for that release, they can say "See, we told you we weren't leaving EvE to rot..."


There have been high emotions in this thread for sure, but also a great deal of very constructive and insightful posts as well. In fact an amazingly high ratio of these.

There comes a point where the best path really is to swallow one's pride, admit error, and correct one's course.


In any case the forum :rage: precedent was set years ago (eg: nanonerf, CONCORD boosts etcetera et ad nausuem).


TBH many of us (myself included) were more than happy to go along for the ride. More success, a better game, walking in station, do it all. Take what you need, we understand. It's all for the greater good. We put our faith in the fact the core would always be respected and remain strong. Well.....you know the rest.

Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2010.07.28 00:50:00 - [1729]
 

Originally by: Cinori Aluben
So, 58 pages, and really truly, not much has changed from CCP's end, but a lot has developed from the players. Frustrations are on the rise, justified emoragequits from forum moguls, quite a large amount of input from the CSM as well (NJ btw to Mynxee and Trebor).
A couple of my own personal observations:
[list=1][*]There are a few MMOs hot on the horizon that I guarantee CCP is worried about, Star Wars: The Old Republic being the primary.


I know you never forget it, bc you're a business, but remember that we the players are not only paying for what has already been developed, we're investing in the future of this game. And if we don't like the future as proposed, we'll discontinue investing. I personally can no longer rationalize 7 accts anymore, and will only PLEX my main while I play StarCraft 2 and wait for SWTOR, til ISK runs out... unless I see something that makes me change my mind.

Please CCP, change all of our minds.





You're right across the board.
Everybody and anybody is going to want to try out TOR

The thing CCP should be asking themselves is... what will get those players to say "this is cool, but it's not Eve".

-a functioning game with a REAL commitment to excellence (a track record that shows continued significant dedication to making Eve function at the barebone client/server level AND continued investment in the eternal fix/balancing a game of this scope requires.

-a bunch of empty promises and ever shifting focus to everything but internet spaceships


we all 'get' that part of that war vs the other mmo's is getting walking avatars. i can understand that.

dust is stupid and will fail and ccp is chasing their sunk costs down a rabbit hole that leads no where.

twilight the MMO is a must win for them at this point and we all know that is where a majority of our development is being synergized (i made a word).

they are gambling. the problem is they aren't gambling smart.

come 18 months from now ccp will have gone 'all in' on these risky ventures hoping it nets them new customers.
the fact is though, they will STILL see a reasonable turnover rate on new accounts.

they are gambling their backbone customer base will stick with them and not be *bitter* and leave.... we will see. the one thing they can't ignore is that eve got to where it was on word of mouth (not scifi commercials and internet ads). new accounts come and go but if ye olde guarde playerbase up and leaves on you, your game will wither and die.

so yeah, if the new SW mmo is out of the ballpark homerun and I love it, i'll be asking myself like so many other eve players "why go back?"

the 2 questions are,
-will CCP try to answer that with something more than "ooh look a new shiny!"
-does CCP even care? Are they dumb enough to sacrifice their vets for new horizons and new business models

and if I was a CCP dev i'd be as concerned about this as the players are.
the guys up top wearing the suits (mentally if not physically) tend to end up OK even when they sail their boats directly into a rock. investors can cut loses and move on.
players and devs are the only ones that give 2 craps what comes of Eve.

wizard87
Posted - 2010.07.28 02:27:00 - [1730]
 

All of a sudden Hilmar's words came into my head:

"More time spent in Eve than on the Pyramids"...

Both equally marginalised in function this many years after construction.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.07.28 02:51:00 - [1731]
 

CCP,

will you tell us WHAT got better in space combat when Dominion was released? CCP Explorer tells us the code is in the best shape ever and that from internal metrics, is doing well. What can we see in game? Please help us notice what we're missing.

Best,
Apollo

Nedefeg
Posted - 2010.07.28 04:37:00 - [1732]
 

Edited by: Nedefeg on 28/07/2010 04:40:20
seryously , my GF and her brother are both in marketing...so....iwillinglly or not know a thing or 2 about that


IHO , CCP should fire everyone and anyone incharge of marketing and PR

FFS , werent the minutes enough , now we get trolled and laughed at with this here devblog , where CCP basically tells us "**** off addicts....here`s some ****e replacementfor you now back in your corners , you aint goin anywhere".....and surprizingly enough this thread is full of well thought weall argued responses...

And what does CCP do? Sendsin a few devs to type a few lines sing nothing?

Newsflash...we(players) troll , you(ccp) make rational well reasoned responses...get it straight you ****tards!

Get someone with a clue or 2 on your PR division and send packing the guys in charge of this mess

edit: coffe does ruin keyboards

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.28 05:35:00 - [1733]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
CCP,

will you tell us WHAT got better in space combat when Dominion was released? CCP Explorer tells us the code is in the best shape ever and that from internal metrics, is doing well. What can we see in game? Please help us notice what we're missing.

What got fixed was things that cause stuff like black screen on jump, unexpected lag, etc to happen due to seemingly unrelated changes to the codebase.

Only people who want more of what we have had since Dominion would imply that the quality improvements CCP Explorer was talking about was wasted.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.28 06:47:00 - [1734]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
12 days since this devblog, and the ensuing player response.

Still awaiting the Transparent™ response with great interest.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2010.07.28 07:43:00 - [1735]
 

Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Misanthropic yelling? Before accusing people of beeing whatever foreign word comes to your mind, you should check the meaning of the word you use, because that's just nonsense in this context.


Actually, its used quite well here... Just chiming in to say I am seriously hoping the 20% of Dev time applied to de-bugging is very productive. Good luck, I'm hoping some serious inspiration hits.

As for the projected development for the next 18 months or so? I don't own a console (and have no intention of buying one for Dust514) and I have no interest in an avatar. So I'll just hang around and play the eve we've got, until that is no longer fun. At which point, I'll leave.

Cindjin
Posted - 2010.07.28 12:13:00 - [1736]
 

Edited by: Cindjin on 28/07/2010 13:33:02
I am very NEW to EVE.... not to PC gaming. My life took some curves over the past several years and I have not been playing any games until recently. I am now 40. I want a mature gaming experience. I no longer want to play FPS's and was looking for a deep, interactive Sci-Fi game and found EVE. I was hooked instantly. The level of integrity of this game is truly amazing. I am quite saddened by this Devblog and the responses from the loyal players. Luckily, I only paid for my first 3 months and not the full year like I originally intended.

EDIT: Does anyone know if the new Dust514/EVE combo will be run on the same server? I didn't find that info in the DevBlog


Haven Wind
Posted - 2010.07.28 13:26:00 - [1737]
 

Originally by: Haven Wind
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Malcanis
11 days since this devblog, and the ensuing player response.

Still awaiting the Transparent™ response with great interest.



quoting oneself does not make you a tool.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2010.07.28 13:45:00 - [1738]
 

Originally by: Cindjin
Edited by: Cindjin on 28/07/2010 13:33:02
I am very NEW to EVE.... not to PC gaming. My life took some curves over the past several years and I have not been playing any games until recently. I am now 40. I want a mature gaming experience. I no longer want to play FPS's and was looking for a deep, interactive Sci-Fi game and found EVE. I was hooked instantly. The level of integrity of this game is truly amazing. I am quite saddened by this Devblog and the responses from the loyal players. Luckily, I only paid for my first 3 months and not the full year like I originally intended.

EDIT: Does anyone know if the new Dust514/EVE combo will be run on the same server? I didn't find that info in the DevBlog




DUST 514 - No, its a console XBOX game, although previous Dev comments suggest it will 'link' to EVE Online.

Incarna - Yes. Rather than spin you ship in a station you can get out and go shopping.

C.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.28 14:34:00 - [1739]
 

Originally by: Cindjin
Edited by: Cindjin on 28/07/2010 13:33:02
I am very NEW to EVE.... not to PC gaming. My life took some curves over the past several years and I have not been playing any games until recently. I am now 40. I want a mature gaming experience. I no longer want to play FPS's and was looking for a deep, interactive Sci-Fi game and found EVE. I was hooked instantly. The level of integrity of this game is truly amazing. I am quite saddened by this Devblog and the responses from the loyal players. Luckily, I only paid for my first 3 months and not the full year like I originally intended.

EDIT: Does anyone know if the new Dust514/EVE combo will be run on the same server? I didn't find that info in the DevBlog




If you're enjoying the game, and the parts of it that you enjoy work, then in all fairness I would recommend that you keep playing on that basis. Our dissatisfaction with the parts of it that dont work need have no effect on you.

Just be aware that as you progress and learn more about EVE, you will inevitably run in to... less excellent aspects of the game..

Marcus Vorenius
Caldari
Task Force 42
Posted - 2010.07.28 15:58:00 - [1740]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Malcanis
12 days since this devblog, and the ensuing player response.

Still awaiting the Transparent™ response with great interest.



we heard you the first time - go and make yourself useful somewhere else


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