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Rokkit Kween
Posted - 2010.07.25 13:28:00 - [1681]
 

Originally by: Marcus Vorenius
Edited by: Marcus Vorenius on 25/07/2010 12:46:16
"Deliver value to your customers early and often! The benefits of agile’s incremental delivery approach are very quantifiable." http://agile.scumniotales.com/agile-roi/

it would be interesting to have a look at the factors that influence the Return on Investment (ROI) for Incarna. The ROI would be: Business value (or benefits) minus development effort. The tangible benefits of Incarna would probably be "net increase in subscribers" (new subcribers minus cancelled subs) and <insert potential benefits from Product Owner here>
In addition to the tangible benefits, CCP has probably added a long list of intangible benefits like <insert mumbo-jumbo from Sales & Marketing here>

It is standard project management procedures to review your business case (e.g. the ROI) after each phase (read: Sprint?) of the project, to make sure that you are on track and inform key stakeholders if it's going south.

TL;DR: Customer reactions to CCP Zulu's Dev Blog means that the ROI of Incarna/Dust is probably being looked at again and the more doubt there is about the benefits, the more the business case is crumbling.

Quote:
The product backlog is a high-level document for the entire project. It contains backlog items: broad descriptions of all required features, wish-list items, etc. prioritized by business value. It is the “What” that will be built. It is open and editable by anyone and contains rough estimates of both business value and development effort. Those estimates help the Product Owner to gauge the timeline and, to a limited extent, prioritize. For example, if the “add spellcheck” and “add table support” features have the same business value, the one with the smallest development effort will probably have higher priority, because the ROI (Return On Investment) is higher.

The product backlog is the property of the Product Owner. Business value is set by the Product Owner. Development effort is set by the Team."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum_(development)


"Deliver value to your customers early and often!" - fix my freakin' rockets... with sugar and honey

Note: i have simplified ROI on purpose (KISS)


See, now why couldn't someone from CCP have explained that instead of assuming we all knew. This clarifies quite a bit about what the backlog actually is (and its not what the word actually implies) and it also explains something of how it is prioritised.

Thanks Marcus. Its just a shame CCP didn't think to explain this themselves.

Marcus Vorenius
Caldari
Task Force 42
Posted - 2010.07.25 14:54:00 - [1682]
 

I always thought the "backlog" was stuff that had been pushed back from previous releases - weird terminology.

CEO: "good morning all, we are here to decide on the 2011 deliverables"
CFO: *checking NASDAQ on Blueberry*
Sales Director: "I think we should diversify into other markets, so we can expand our client base and increase revenue"
COO: *yawns*
CEO: "my daughter really likes Farmville"
EVE Programme Manager: "the development road-map ..." *starts a super-cool Power Point presentation*
CEO: "hold your horses there John - is there something like Farmville in there?"
Sales Director: *picking his nose*
.................(3 mins later)
CEO: "let me make this crisp and clear: I WANT EVE-FARMVILLE AND FLUFFY BUNNIES"
EVE Programme Manager: "understood - i'll get the draft Business Case to you tomorrow" *updates LinkedIn and starts writing his CV*
CEO: "I just gave you the Business Case - start development asap! oh - and by the way, get rid of those Spaceships"

TL;DR: a Business Case can be a one-liner or a ream of paper


Haven Wind
Posted - 2010.07.26 03:15:00 - [1683]
 

Originally by: Dzajic
Truly wonderful. Now that thread has degenerated into random trolling CCP can lock it up and forget about it, without ever giving a single proper answer.

Yes everyone has "their" bug or balance issue they want CCP to look at, but that is only because all of EVE is broken to some extent.

Only customers that CCP has right now and will have for next year and a half till Dust and Incarna go out are "spaceship flying" folks (who by the way consider that to be EVE), and no one can be happy at silly 18 months thing.

Incarna players will supposedly want to undock at one time, if only to get to another station, and that will give them opportunity to see and judge the quality of spaceship parts of game.
Even when talking about Dust, CCP will have to go back to PI and make it worth it enough that people bother hiring mercenaries from another game.


you are everything that is wrong with this thread in that you purport to speak for people that you have no right speaking for. I am a current player that is happy with the current situation. Stop putting words in my mouth.

lookout2
Posted - 2010.07.26 04:45:00 - [1684]
 

Well if you had a serious lag problem, and you knew it was going to take X amount of dollars and years to really solve, wouldn't you want to do as much window dressing and pull in as many PVE types in as possible?

I'm just sayin?

Like many I find myself doubting if the real EVE will ever return, and we will have to be content with roaming gangs until there is nothing left of what was. I am truly astounded that so many could care less. It's not like there are any really challenging PVP sandbox's, with the same social dynamic, out there.

Dzajic
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.26 07:41:00 - [1685]
 

In the topic. Dozens of trolls trying to say it is OK if game isn't supported, bugfixed or balanced for next year and a half.

This isn't just about lag or rockets or about any other single issue or combination of issues. It is about all of them, about status of entire game, and about tiny number of developers left working on it.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.26 09:40:00 - [1686]
 

10 days since this devblog, and the ensuing player response.

Still awaiting the Transparent™ response with great interest.

lookout2
Posted - 2010.07.26 10:37:00 - [1687]
 

Edited by: lookout2 on 26/07/2010 11:03:35
Edited by: lookout2 on 26/07/2010 10:38:09
Originally by: Dzajic
In the topic. Dozens of trolls trying to say it is OK if game isn't supported, bugfixed or balanced for next year and a half.

This isn't just about lag or rockets or about any other single issue or combination of issues. It is about all of them, about status of entire game, and about tiny number of developers left working on it.


Maybe, but I'm pretty sure that if Dominion hadn't resulted in major fleet lag this thread would have withered and died along time ago. It's not just that there will be very little love in the next 2 years, but that it's being done while the endgame is clearly broken.

You want to go on about the whole game being a disaster, that's you right, but it's really not what's going on here IMO.

Nedefeg
Posted - 2010.07.26 11:51:00 - [1688]
 

soo many eloquent responses here


and still ccp not explaining why they are killing the version of eve that got them where they are now

ffs , just roll back dominion , give us back the playable 0.0 sov games then work all you want on emo jove vampires dancing nude in stations

Nedefeg
Posted - 2010.07.26 11:58:00 - [1689]
 

on a more serious note

I`ll still play eve , or at least keep 2 accounts active and maybe reactivate the other 3 if things change for the better

but i`m allso looking around for upcoming sandbox mmorpg`s

I can understand on many levels what`s going on over at ccp , and i think the failiure is with the devs not managing to explain the issues clearly to whatever ******s make up the management and accounting teams of CCP

and to the famous quote , that new features sell better then polish....probably so , whatever them useless marketing dudes come up with...

but make it clear to the useless marketing ****ups that the case in eve is not about new features vs polish , but rather new features vs FUNCTIONAL FEATURES that the new features are based upon

atm sov warfare isnt lacking polish , it`s plain and simple not a functional feature. it`s in a status that would hardly qualify as "BETA"


Dragon Greg
Posted - 2010.07.26 12:28:00 - [1690]
 

Originally by: Nedefeg

atm sov warfare isnt lacking polish , it`s plain and simple not a functional feature. it`s in a status that would hardly qualify as "BETA"




It was stated some months ago in another feedback thread that Dominion delivered a basic framework for sovereignty warfare, to be iterated upon over time to expand for flexibility, objectives and methods involved.

But I guess CCP believes their own QEN numbers, which highlight how small the 0.0 subscriber niche is, without taking into account interdependancies in accounts for subscribers between the pilots doing pvp, pve and sov warfare in 0.0 and their individual and organisational accounts in empire space. And as such, their conclusion that it's not worth the effort to undertake work to iterate on this (as if it is a lot of work, come on, have some trust/faith) is to them a perfectly valid conclusion.

Then again, seeing these examples of their communication in the devblog, the minutes and this thread, it's really questionable whether some decision maker would even listen to a programmer about his observations from his own gameplay on these things. The data! OMG!

I doubt they have the "metrics" or even the inclination to figure out either tbh, with this snapshot statistics stuff (which is an emberassing method to use in any modelling tbh).
When we were in 0.0 it was a rough ratio of on average 3 accounts in empire to 1 in 0.0, for us, who knows what it is today.

Miiis Sweety
Empire of Collateral Damage
Posted - 2010.07.26 13:09:00 - [1691]
 

Incarna-- dont care about it
PI-- dont care about it
Reducing my 7 paying accounts to 5..

CCP should care about fixing previous issues, not creating more bugs to never fix.

Sad

Marcus Vorenius
Caldari
Task Force 42
Posted - 2010.07.26 13:09:00 - [1692]
 

Quote:
The product backlog is the property of the Product Owner. Business value is set by the Product Owner. Development effort is set by the Team."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum_(development)


I hope the wiki is wrong. The Product Owner is the "client" (business value is in his P&L) - the guy responsible for the deliveries (e.g. programme director, project manager) should own the backlog.

Average Jack
Posted - 2010.07.26 13:32:00 - [1693]
 

Edited by: Average Jack on 26/07/2010 13:42:52
Edited by: Average Jack on 26/07/2010 13:39:13
Originally by: devblog
EVE Gate

(1 team, approximately 10 developers)

We have one team (at this point) assigned to EVE Gate development and iteration, and that won‘t change for the foreseeable future. Note that this team is a dedicated Web development team. I had planned on using them to fix fleet lag but was talked out of it.


So to summarize: we're not only getting some clueless marketing dude who's only skills are talking PR-bullcrap and target painting sieged dreads as a Senior Producer, we're also being made fun of by this guy.

So instead of actually getting the finger out after letting us suffer for 9 months and fixing fleet lag you'll be copy/pasting facebook with eve pictures and investing most of the time into some sub-par shooter for console noobs (thus trying to milk some more money out of the market).

This sort of thing makes me puke.

We need a competent and technical-minded person with a love for EVE at the helm - not some MBA that thinks he can sweet talk the community with his "dear customer" bullcrap. Evil or Very Mad

I'm aware that most EVE players are empire noobs that quit again after 7 months but what our dear marking "pro" is forgetting is that EVE hasn't gained it's great name for its endless boring highsec crap missions - it got it's name because of the 0.0 people that you are now totally ignoring since you broke god-damn fleet battles with the release of Dominion. The marketing noobs at CCP probably aren't even aware of this since they don't actually play EVE.

Neutral

Edit:

Basically Marcus Vorenius summed it up nicely. EVE doesn't need more marketing and better PR - it needs to run better from a technical point of view. Fire Zulu (I heard the guys over at STO might need someone with his "skill set"), fix lag and otherwise continue the way you were the last 6 years. Oh, and fix lag. Mad

Marcus Vorenius
Caldari
Task Force 42
Posted - 2010.07.26 15:10:00 - [1694]
 

CSM Chairman: "So, you the brains of this outfit, or is he?"
EVE Project Manager: "Tell ya the truth, I don't think this is a brains kind of operation."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0202677/quotes?qt0240302

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.07.26 15:17:00 - [1695]
 

Originally by: Marcus Vorenius
Quote:
The product backlog is the property of the Product Owner. Business value is set by the Product Owner. Development effort is set by the Team."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum_(development)


I hope the wiki is wrong. The Product Owner is the "client" (business value is in his P&L) - the guy responsible for the deliveries (e.g. programme director, project manager) should own the backlog.



The Product Owner is not the "client", (s)he is the one "ordering a product" from the team(s).
The Product Owner could even be someone who will never use the product at all (although this would probably make less sense)

PC l0adletter
Posted - 2010.07.26 16:24:00 - [1696]
 

Originally by: Dragon Greg
Originally by: Nedefeg

atm sov warfare isnt lacking polish , it`s plain and simple not a functional feature. it`s in a status that would hardly qualify as "BETA"




It was stated some months ago in another feedback thread that Dominion delivered a basic framework for sovereignty warfare, to be iterated upon over time to expand for flexibility, objectives and methods involved.

But I guess CCP believes their own QEN numbers, which highlight how small the 0.0 subscriber niche is, without taking into account interdependancies in accounts for subscribers between the pilots doing pvp, pve and sov warfare in 0.0 and their individual and organisational accounts in empire space. And as such, their conclusion that it's not worth the effort to undertake work to iterate on this (as if it is a lot of work, come on, have some trust/faith) is to them a perfectly valid conclusion.

Then again, seeing these examples of their communication in the devblog, the minutes and this thread, it's really questionable whether some decision maker would even listen to a programmer about his observations from his own gameplay on these things. The data! OMG!

I doubt they have the "metrics" or even the inclination to figure out either tbh, with this snapshot statistics stuff (which is an emberassing method to use in any modelling tbh).
When we were in 0.0 it was a rough ratio of on average 3 accounts in empire to 1 in 0.0, for us, who knows what it is today.



QFT, emphasis supplied.


Marcus Vorenius
Caldari
Task Force 42
Posted - 2010.07.26 16:47:00 - [1697]
 

Originally by: Ban Doga
Originally by: Marcus Vorenius
Quote:
The product backlog is the property of the Product Owner. Business value is set by the Product Owner. Development effort is set by the Team."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum_(development)


I hope the wiki is wrong. The Product Owner is the "client" (business value is in his P&L) - the guy responsible for the deliveries (e.g. programme director, project manager) should own the backlog.



The Product Owner is not the "client", (s)he is the one "ordering a product" from the team(s).
The Product Owner could even be someone who will never use the product at all (although this would probably make less sense)

correct - "client" can be ambiguous http://www.prince2.com/prince2-structure.asp#prince2-project-management-roles

Playing Eve
Posted - 2010.07.26 18:34:00 - [1698]
 

Originally by: Marcus Vorenius

it would be interesting to have a look at the factors that influence the Return on Investment (ROI) for Incarna. The ROI would be: Business value (or benefits) minus development effort. The tangible benefits of Incarna would probably be "net increase in subscribers" (new subcribers minus cancelled subs) and <insert potential benefits from Product Owner here>
In addition to the tangible benefits, CCP has probably added a long list of intangible benefits like

TL;DR: Customer reactions to CCP Zulu's Dev Blog means that the ROI of Incarna/Dust is probably being looked at again and the more doubt there is about the benefits, the more the business case is crumbling.



Remember also that CCP own WhiteWolf and presumably wants to release a person/avatar based game for that audience at some time. So in addition to the factors you have listed, Incarna call also be seen as ground work for an entirely other product line. If the outlook for that product is still seen as good, quite a bit of loss on the EVE side can be written off as costs/learning for the new product.

That said, I still think Incarna can bring in LARGE numbers of new players. I have several friends who are completely turned off to Eve once they find out that they only have a ship to relate to -- people who want to occasionally sit around a virtual table and look another face in the eyes.

CeneUJiti
Posted - 2010.07.26 19:37:00 - [1699]
 

Big issue with World of Darkness MMO (aside from blasphemy of using WOD copyright to try and cash in on Twilight mania) is that it will still be "fantasy" MMO. Can anyone even count number of high budget attempts at that that withered and died in that shadow of WOW. Dust has more chances of getting some money to CCP than any potential WOD MMO has.

Marcus Vorenius
Caldari
Task Force 42
Posted - 2010.07.26 21:51:00 - [1700]
 

Edited by: Marcus Vorenius on 27/07/2010 05:37:44
Edited by: Marcus Vorenius on 26/07/2010 21:56:34
Originally by: Playing Eve
Originally by: Marcus Vorenius

it would be interesting to have a look at the factors that influence the Return on Investment (ROI) for Incarna. The ROI would be: Business value (or benefits) minus development effort. The tangible benefits of Incarna would probably be "net increase in subscribers" (new subcribers minus cancelled subs) and <insert potential benefits from Product Owner here>
In addition to the tangible benefits, CCP has probably added a long list of intangible benefits like

TL;DR: Customer reactions to CCP Zulu's Dev Blog means that the ROI of Incarna/Dust is probably being looked at again and the more doubt there is about the benefits, the more the business case is crumbling.



Remember also that CCP own WhiteWolf and presumably wants to release a person/avatar based game for that audience at some time. So in addition to the factors you have listed, Incarna call also be seen as ground work for an entirely other product line. If the outlook for that product is still seen as good, quite a bit of loss on the EVE side can be written off as costs/learning for the new product.

That said, I still think Incarna can bring in LARGE numbers of new players. I have several friends who are completely turned off to Eve once they find out that they only have a ship to relate to -- people who want to occasionally sit around a virtual table and look another face in the eyes.


If I want to socialise, I'll go to the pub with my mates. I'm not questioning the viability of Incarna/Dust, I just think that CCP needs to keep momentum going on EVE and since they have applied the Scrum model they should follow the motivation behind it: "deliver value early and often"

If there is a long-term cunning plan in the works for the person/avatar stuff, then it would still be "intangible benefits" in the business case. However, if they have the cash and the stomach for it - and that's where they want to go - then that's the business case.

btw: please fix my rockets

Kireiina
Posted - 2010.07.27 01:09:00 - [1701]
 

Edited by: Kireiina on 27/07/2010 06:02:11
Originally by: Playing Eve

That said, I still think Incarna can bring in LARGE numbers of new players. I have several friends who are completely turned off to Eve once they find out that they only have a ship to relate to -- people who want to occasionally sit around a virtual table and look another face in the eyes.


And it doesn't matter. Once they discover it's just a thin piece of fluff around the current game-play they will leave. Especially if that gameplay has been left stagnant for 18+ months.

There's an insane amount of work CCP could do to improve the player experience which would be much better for long term retention. Also the sort of people who stay with this game are attracted by the complex sand-box nature of it and if major parts of that are broken (FW, low-sec, alliance warfare) what's the appeal?

That said anyone who doesn't realize that CCP has over-stretched themselves and Incarna is a free spin-off of their WoD work offered as a palliative for not putting any effort into Eve is astoundingly optimistic. And no doubt they've got delivery deadlines for WoD and Dust that means there's just nothing they can do about it.


Benny Hill
Caldari
General Thrusters
Posted - 2010.07.27 01:19:00 - [1702]
 

Edited by: Benny Hill on 27/07/2010 01:21:33

Dust 514/EVE link

what is unheard of is, getting a networked console game to be better than crap when its developed in Shanghai. Seriously CCP, do you understand your cheap labor recent grads in China are not even allowed to play Xbox or PS3 internet connected games? You think your game will someone remotely reach the dismal results of experienced game studios, then go over the top?

Hint: the China regional code in Xbox and PS3 consoles only apply to the two Special Administrative Regions, NOT Shanghai.

Rokkit Kween
Posted - 2010.07.27 01:43:00 - [1703]
 

That would be what the Newcastle office is for.

I'm guessing that the art and heavy lifting of the coding would have been done in Shanghai whilst the network coding and testing (including the link to TQ) would be done in Newcastle.

Then again, I could be wrong, there are such things as proxy servers and 'developer specials' of both the 360 and PS3 which I'm guessing won't be region locked.

China's 'great firewall' is a bit like fire: Its not solid and you can get through it if you know what you're doing (like wearing an asbestos suit).

Nedefeg
Posted - 2010.07.27 04:49:00 - [1704]
 

Edited by: Nedefeg on 27/07/2010 04:55:46
fact is , there is no reason whatsoever for anyone to keep anysort of interest in the subpar shooter that dust will be

Hell , even if it will be a great shooter it will b outdone and outdated in 1 year unless ccp pulls out dustII (or maybe dirt?)

linking it to EvE is a horrible ideea at best....and this horrible ideea is made worse by...ignoring ve in order to make dust?

i cant even begin to say how ****ed up this is


As for WoD...unless its another free pvp sandbox who thee **** cares? No way in hell it can stand up to the new thempeparks coin out there

just to make it clearer


EvE`s success comes mainly from beeing DIFFERENT from the pile of steaming trash called mmo`s out there . If CCP feels the need to jump in that pile of trash, they should do so in a way taht is totaly unrelated to eve , and leave EvE...EVE. By linking eve with all the junk they are developing they are in fact @puting all there egs in one [email protected] If crap goes wrong...it will mean them losing both eve and that new crap

tell this to your managers

keep eve eve , srsly , eve players are very very very easy to please compared to console or wow players...throw us a bone every now and then and you`ll have a steady cash income to develop your junk...just keep that junk away from eve

btw , who wants players in eve who come to eve cause of incarna? personally i` dont and if they do i hope they go away after the trial

lookout2
Posted - 2010.07.27 05:22:00 - [1705]
 

Edited by: lookout2 on 27/07/2010 05:22:56
"EvE`s success comes mainly from beeing DIFFERENT from the pile of steaming trash called mmo`s out there . If CCP feels the need to jump in that pile of trash, they should do so in a way taht is totaly unrelated to eve , and leave EvE...EVE. By linking eve with all the junk they are developing they are in fact @puting all there egs in one [email protected] If crap goes wrong...it will mean them losing both eve and that new crap

tell this to your managers

keep eve eve , srsly , eve players are very very very easy to please compared to console or wow players...throw us a bone every now and then and you`ll have a steady cash income to develop your junk...just keep that junk away from eve
"


It's hard to reconcile this with the constant upward movement of CCP's sub numbers, but I agree 100%. This may be the smartest thing I've read so far, and I just can't see this ending well for this game.

Well Said M8

Marcus Vorenius
Caldari
Task Force 42
Posted - 2010.07.27 05:41:00 - [1706]
 

Originally by: Kireiina

nothing



That is NOT my quote in your post

Kireiina
Posted - 2010.07.27 06:03:00 - [1707]
 


My apologies and fixed.

Haven Wind
Posted - 2010.07.27 07:48:00 - [1708]
 

Originally by: Nedefeg


As for WoD...unless its another free pvp sandbox who thee **** cares? No way in hell it can stand up to the new thempeparks coin out there



Thanks for making sweeping assumptions, I'm sure its crap, your a teal warthog, and I will drive a camel to work tomorrow.

Quote:

btw , who wants players in eve who come to eve cause of incarna? personally i` dont and if they do i hope they go away after the trial


I would love them, thanks for being wrong.

ps. I've been here since 2003

CeneUJiti
Posted - 2010.07.27 07:54:00 - [1709]
 

Also, be cool and stay in character like ISD people. Its not lag and desyncs, its "spatial anomalies".

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.27 08:18:00 - [1710]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
11 days since this devblog, and the ensuing player response.

Still awaiting the Transparent™ response with great interest.


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