open All Channels
seplocked EVE Information Portal
blankseplocked New Dev Blog: Iterative development and what's happening in 2011
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 52 53 54 55 [56] 57 58 59 60 ... : last (66)

Author Topic

Nerodon
Gallente
Incapsulated Reality
Posted - 2010.07.24 00:10:00 - [1651]
 

Originally by: yani dumyat

I blame Zulu to some extent, any PR guy with two brain cells to rub together would have pointed out that giving a list of teams, without explaining how the devs would find time to fix the multitude of issues we want fixed, was like fighting fire by throwing petrol on it. The canteen staff could probably have
Due to all this the '18 months' meme was born. Explorer, Atropos and Lemur have done an admirable job of fighting the fire but memes really are like wild fire, they spread fast, cause a lot of damage and don't stop to think about what they are doing.

all you idiots who keep repeating this false mantra of eve being abandoned please shut up.


Sorry for selectively quoting but all in all, I don't believe that it will matter that much in the end if the dev blog was written better, the people who come in here crying about all of this would have found another way to accuse CCP of deadly sin by claiming CCP is only trying to hide their vice behind flowers, rainbows and unicorns.

Plus, you have to admit that there's always people that complain about eve all the time because they fight to make sure it stays a good game. I also think that the amount of people that do come on the forum to complain are a rather small minority compared to the rest of the players playing eve. Most of them are probably veteran pvp or 0.0 players who have been fighting to keep eve a nice pvp oriented ship pew pew game above all else ever since they started playing. I doubt that their complaints alone and the spread of the "18 month" meme will hurt eve globally that much at all. But I do think that it will fuel the CSM to push CCP to satisfy their needs in the long run.

At this point, CCP could be working on a number of things that people here keep wanting implemented, but of course, you won't know until a little before the next expansion, which by the way, it's contents still remain a relative mystery.

Stay positive, things will work out, hopefully!

PC l0adletter
Posted - 2010.07.24 01:04:00 - [1652]
 

Originally by: Conan Piter
Originally by: PC l0adletter
Do you have a SOURCE for your opinion?

The dev blog and the CSM minutes both cover areas of ongoing development. There are 3 teams dedicated to In-space features.



Three whole teams! Wow, that's like 15-20 people! How can they afford to spare those resources when they pull in 4.5 million per month in subscription revenue? That's like 200k in salaries and benefits right there. I hope it doesn't slow down development on the vampire game!

Originally by: Conan Piter

PI is getting an iteration soon.



Really? The feature they released two weeks late and in a nearly-unplayable state is going to get an iteration? Lucky us!

Originally by: Conan Piter

There is a Winter Expansion -- no idea what's in it.



Sansha invasion/Jove region PVE content. Whoopie.

Originally by: Conan Piter

Missions are getting attention too as discussed in the minutes.



That was in the context of the winter expansion content. Jove missions, wooooo

Originally by: Conan Piter

Apparently 20% of all developer time is dedicated to fixing problems. And so on.


No, purportedly 20% of dev time is dedicated to fixing problems. Can you name three lingering problems that were fixed in the last patch? I can't.

What I think was meant by this post is that, as they're coding new stuff, they'll spend Monday thru Thursday coding, and then dedicate Fridays to debugging the new code that they've written over the previous 4 days.

You would have to be pretty naive to uncritically accept the bare assertion that 20% of dev time is devoted to fixing bugs in old content. If it were true, you'd think there would be fewer of them, right? You would think there wouldn't be bugs that have lasted for months and years.

croxis
Gallente
The Praxis Initiative
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2010.07.24 03:17:00 - [1653]
 

You can verify yourself by looking at past patch notes and expansion notes.

Conan Piter
Ways and Means
Posted - 2010.07.24 03:34:00 - [1654]
 

I think you are being a bit churlish, which was my point I suppose.

Originally by: PC l0adletter
Three whole teams! Wow, that's like 15-20 people! How can they afford to spare those resources when they pull in 4.5 million per month in subscription revenue? That's like 200k in salaries and benefits right there. I hope it doesn't slow down development on the vampire game!

If CCP decide to spend their income on beer and trips to the Bahamas, that's up to them. We aren't shareholders.

Originally by: PC l0adletter
No, purportedly 20% of dev time is dedicated to fixing problems. Can you name three lingering problems that were fixed in the last patch? I can't.

I haven't had a single client crash since Tyrannis. Not one. I had them occasionally in the previous expansion and quite frequently before that. I'm also rather pleased that POS shields finally recharge properly. That's been a problem for years. I'd point out some of the user interface fixes in Tyrannis, like a working LP window (broken since introduced) and that your ship doesn't appear to be under attack whenever you use flamebursts, but those things probably don't bother you. Which is fine. Because there is always the lag. But if you think bugs aren't getting fixed, however slowly, you are being misleading. Just remember who actually provided sources in this little debate.

Originally by: PC l0adletter
You would have to be pretty naive to uncritically accept the bare assertion that 20% of dev time is devoted to fixing bugs in old content. If it were true, you'd think there would be fewer of them, right? You would think there wouldn't be bugs that have lasted for months and years.

When you say "bugs", do you mean bugs ? Because there aren't as many bugs left as you think. What you mean, I think, is that you don't like the way certain things work. Like rockets. Rockets work perfectly well, they just aren't great. Defenders aren't great either, by the way. Of course if rockets had the specs people are asking for, there wouldn't be much of a counter, but that's all a case of balancing, not bugs.

If everything was balanced according to what the players wanted, then everything would be pretty homogeneous. Instead, there are good weapons and bad weapons and it appears to me that much of the fun of Eve is knowing which is which and taking advantage.

Anyway I'm not particularly interested in defending CCP's claims, plans, statements, whatever. I have my own pet grumbles and I've voiced them in the appropriate venues, but that doesn't make me right. I am just saying if there was a little less hyperbole and "sky is falling" around here you might get closer to what you are really after.

PC l0adletter
Posted - 2010.07.24 04:43:00 - [1655]
 

Originally by: Conan Piter
I think you are being a bit churlish, which was my point I suppose.



And that's exactly my point. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. I'm extremely unhappy with the course of development of this game, and I don't think sycophantic fanboyism (LEAVE CCP ALONE!) makes it better.

Originally by: Conan Piter

Originally by: PC l0adletter
Three whole teams! Wow, that's like 15-20 people! How can they afford to spare those resources when they pull in 4.5 million per month in subscription revenue? That's like 200k in salaries and benefits right there. I hope it doesn't slow down development on the vampire game!

If CCP decide to spend their income on beer and trips to the Bahamas, that's up to them. We aren't shareholders.


Of course it's up to them -- even shareholders don't have the right to direct the day-to-day course of a business.

In my opinion, the act of posting the devblog means that these allocations are up for discussion. If they want to rescind that, lock the thread, and ban people who say things that hurt their feelings, no one can stop them.

However, there has obviously been a massive shift of resources away from what many players consider the 'core' of the game. Pointing out that a few guys still work on that core is not a refutation of the thesis.

Originally by: Conan Piter

Originally by: PC l0adletter
No, purportedly 20% of dev time is dedicated to fixing problems. Can you name three lingering problems that were fixed in the last patch? I can't.

...Which is fine. Because there is always the lag. But if you think bugs aren't getting fixed, however slowly, you are being misleading. Just remember who actually provided sources in this little debate.



To be clear, your 'source' is your own recollection, that you recount herein. I don't see any links to external information, which is what most people understand the word source to mean. I deny that blackscreening has been fixed with Tyrannis, and a lot of other people would, too.

I am aware that patch notes recite a litany of fixes with each patch, (e.g. "# Equipping saved fittings no longer fails if changes affect a module that has a script loaded."). These seem arbitrarily chosen and low-impact, at best. They do not convince me that 20% of coding time is spent fixing bugs.

Originally by: Conan Piter

Originally by: PC l0adletter
You would have to be pretty naive to uncritically accept the bare assertion that 20% of dev time is devoted to fixing bugs in old content. If it were true, you'd think there would be fewer of them, right? You would think there wouldn't be bugs that have lasted for months and years.


When you say "bugs", do you mean bugs?



I understand that some people think the distinction between poorly implemented features and client crashes/core dumps is important. I think it is a distinction without a difference. If I send back my food at a restaurant because there is a bug in it, I do not want the waiter to bring it back out to me because, technically, it contains a spider, and a spider is not a bug.

Dysfunctionality is a spectrum running between design flaws at one end and code flaws at the other, but most problems contain both in varying proportions. Arbitrarily assigning a dysfunction to one category or another seems only to serve the purpose of providing an excuse for not fixing it.


Originally by: Conan Piter
Anyway I'm not particularly interested in defending CCP's claims, plans, statements, whatever.

You could have fooled me.

Originally by: Conan Piter
I am just saying if there was a little less hyperbole and "sky is falling" around here you might get closer to what you are really after.

If you have any evidence to support your theory that docile and quietly suffering customers get the best service, please share it. Are you a Cubs fan or something?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.24 05:22:00 - [1656]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 23/07/2010 17:26:50
Originally by: Milamara
Wouldn't surprise me the least that when Incarna hits new players start out with 10 million skillpoints or some such. One of the reasons why EVE doesn't attract more new players is that older players have a massive skillpoint advantage over new players. Sure, any 3 weeks old noob can fly and fit a tackler, but flying Rifters for two years to catch up with old accounts gets old quickly.


Awesome - all I have to do is start a new character and I can have a market/datacore farming/cyno alt all rolled into one!

-Liang

Ed: Apparently the market is really important to me.


This seems like an excellent opportunity to point to my sig and :smug:

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.07.24 06:42:00 - [1657]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 24/07/2010 06:47:19
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 24/07/2010 06:46:49
Quote:

In January of 2009, that makes it what ...16 months instead of the 24 I said it would take ...



Don't try the spin game with me. I was replying to this:

Quote:

Sure, any 3 weeks old noob can fly and fit a tackler, but flying Rifters for two years to catch up with old accounts gets old quickly




This char can also do limited research, production, trading and PI (all skills to IV) as it's born as "0.0 survivalist".
I also trained the 2 alts to T2 invention and trading (one is also a low level datacore farmer).


Finally, even just being able to fly a BC / T2 cruiser is already a great feature, as roaming gangs is where the fun in EvE is at.


Quote:

(and I will go ahead and ignore that you mentioned Freighters which need require next to no skillpoints to fly)



IIRC it's 22 days just to get racial indy to V (plus 4 or so for IV etc) because of the character is projected to have combat flight stats.


Quote:

My level 5 fitting skills, armor compensation, armor rep, carrier, fighters, dread, booster effect mitigation etc. skills will beat your level 3 or 4 skills and there is nothing you can do about that other than get your skills to level 5 in time



Your lavel 5 skills will make you a fantastic solo dread pilot, which is SO useful. Oh wait, cap ships are a fleet affair and having capital armor rep trained 1 notch below yours will do nil difference in a hundreds vs hundreds setting.


Quote:

In other MMOs there's a level and gear cap, once you reach that everyone is on equal footing.



Balls, I have played a long list of MMOs, they are class based and once you are committed to one race and class you have to stick with it. If one day it becomes "the gimp", you are stuffed for the next year.
I also played Darkfall Online where you don't have a defined "path", but that's the exception MMO not the rule (and even there, there are the better and worse skill paths).


Quote:

You are confused.
11 million WoW subscribers prove that it makes good business sense to make things easy for those who pay to play. At the end of the day CCP is a business and what matters most to them is not the way you look at the game but the way the thousands of people who want to be given stuff look at it.



You are the confused one. What made EvE unique is because CCP never catered to the lowest common idiot denominator. Because they were "different" and therefore the playerbase is also different, aimed more at older players with i.e. some experience in manufacturing / trading and less at being wannabe twitch night elf rogues.
I don't see having a 300k subs base as being a problem, but as a solution. It keeps the worst outside, it keeps EvE ... EvE.
One day I even played WoW, on one of the top 4 played servers. It was still 2000 concurrent people online spread over an overly huge world (last expansion), split in two factions. I can find as many in Jita + a surrounding system. And the player base was FAR from EvE's one.


Edit: and the issue 100s of people above got is that by going for the shinies path for idiots, will make EvE not to be EvE any more. SURE it's their property and they are free to WoWize EvE till it gets 11M of morons playing it. But not without those who are fine with current EvE staying real EvE crying a lot against it. The players do have a say, and another unique CCP thing is that they are known to be able to listen.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.24 07:58:00 - [1658]
 

Yeah CCP should totally try and compete with WoW and join the long list of successful MMOs that have done this, such as

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2010.07.24 09:56:00 - [1659]
 

First off I made a balls up, apparently backlog refers to the 80% not the 20% of their workload. (It's the kind of back to front thinking that makes me think Iceland was Europe's first mental asylum, people who got to the Shetland Isles, decided it was too much of a sun drenched paradise and went to find somewhere even more inhospitable to live must have had a screw loose Very Happy)

Originally by: PC l0adletter

No, purportedly 20% of dev time is dedicated to fixing problems. Can you name three lingering problems that were fixed in the last patch? I can't.

To be clear, your 'source' is your own recollection, that you recount herein.



Removal of NPC orders and the insurance fix were big changes, you may not think they affect you but they do, the market affects everyone. Not to mention these were both changes that had been asked for by the players many times. As for source a quote from this post may interest you:
Originally by: CCP Explorer

Current work is being fed by two queues: 80% of the time or 4 days a week: The backlog + defects stemming from that work. 20% of the time or 1 day a week: Defects (except those stemming from backlog work).

The backlog is not a FIFO queue, it's a prioritized queue for each team. Stakeholders have multiple queues or lists but eventually they must agree internally and with the PO on an overall priority into a single backlog for each team.



Originally by: PC l0adletter

Three whole teams! Wow, that's like 15-20 people! How can they afford to spare those resources when they pull in 4.5 million per month in subscription revenue? That's like 200k in salaries and benefits right there. I hope it doesn't slow down development on the vampire game!

However, there has obviously been a massive shift of resources away from what many players consider the 'core' of the game. Pointing out that a few guys still work on that core is not a refutation of the thesis.



I'd argue that this is closer to the point but I'll post again this quote from Jade Constantine who put the issues far more eloquently than yourself.

Originally by: Jade Constantine

And that’s the big issue here. It’s not rocket-balancing and rubbish hybrid performance. It’s Empyrean Age and the abandoned Faction Warfare. It’s Apocrypha and the missing 5th subsystems. It’s Dominion and unfinished treaties and alliance content, and its Tyrranis and planetary colonies without people, morale, tax rates, political ideologies or any form of cooperative or collaborative interaction on these shiny new planets.



It honestly doesn't matter if there's 20 or 20,000 people working on the core game as long as these issues get fixed. CCP have clearly started to respond by putting up a new font on sisi and deploying Chronotis modified damage control to the rocket thread.

What I find hard to understand is why it takes so long for balance changes and small issues to get fixed, it's been years since QR yet blasters have still not received the boost in tracking required to compensate for 60% webs. The scenario is played out time and again with different weapons systems being borked for a couple of years then being buffed to FOTM.


Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.07.24 10:34:00 - [1660]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 24/07/2010 18:52:08
Originally by: yani dumyat
[...]

What I find hard to understand is why it takes so long for balance changes and small issues to get fixed, it's been years since QR yet blasters have still not received the boost in tracking required to compensate for 60% webs. The scenario is played out time and again with different weapons systems being borked for a couple of years then being buffed to FOTM.




Leaving the rest uncommented, because I think I made my position clear.

What I want to add is, though: Tracking Boost to Blasters is not going to save them. Their tracking is just fine. Compare theirs to Auto-Cannons and see, that they're not that far apart in tracking-stats, yet nobody complains about ACs beeing low on tracking, even while they're mostly fighting in Falloff and their platforms are faster, too. It's the Blaster's effective damage output, that doesn't off-set their disadvantages. It has been impressively shown in various other threads that they either need more raw damage (prefered) or a slight boost to falloff and optimal, plus the blaster-platforms need a change, since they're simply too slow nowadays (aka ultra-deadly knife in the hands of someone with broken legs, who tries to fight olympiad-runners). But enough thread-derailing.

Dakisha
The NomNomNom
Posted - 2010.07.24 10:50:00 - [1661]
 

Edited by: Dakisha on 24/07/2010 11:00:14
In the hope that people with clout from within CCP are still reading this and as the thread seems to be slowing - a closing, slightly less ranty post to say..

CCP - I hope this thread has enlightened you a little to the fact that your playerbase is pretty upset right now. We have been upset for some time now, but this round really has been the last straw for a lot of us.

When deciding what to do about this, how to react, etc - I hope you realise one thing. If you don't re-prioritise, redirect your resources to the areas we have complained about and if you just continue down your current stated priorities - there are a lot of us who will leave.

To make sure this is really clear and leave no room for ambiguity. If I get some random new shiny distracting features in the next patch and sov, low-sec, rockets, etc don't show up in some devblog saying they will be looked at inside the next year. I'm gone.

And I think I'm being generous with offering you a year tbqfh. (I'm not asking for all of them, but start work on something... Take ideas from this thread and the CSM minutes - it's no secret what we want)

Your data may not reflect that polished quality sells better than new features (how did you let such a quote make it out? <MrT> crazy fool </MrT>) but I can assure you. No polished quality will lose players better.. This time around especially.

No matter what you do - realise this. For a -lot- of players, this has become your last chance to prove to us you can listen. I've watched you break promise after promise and figured you would get to it eventually - and i'm no longer willing to make that leap of faith.

You have lost the trust of the players. Please don't underestimate the resolve and anger of the players. I would hate to see you do the usual and plow blindly on - only for eve to die like that star wars game did with the 'vocal minority'.

For every one post made in this threadnought, there are several more people who read it, agreed and didn't bother posting because someone else made their point more eloquently.


edit:

And for further clarification, this quote from CCP Chronotis

Quote:
It is more correct view to say our 'major' project slots are all provisionally filled for at least the next three expansions


This is one of those things that is not acceptable to your playerbase. Developing WoD and Dust is all good and well - but do those on your own time. That you somehow thought that we would accept all the staff moving from eve to another game is beyond me.

We don't buy your explanation that this is for eve. This is a feature that happens to have some relevance to eve that lets you work on the WoD engine. Dust is even more thinly veiled.

Work on eve - not other games. Then we might see something fixed and people not threatening to leave.

Di Mulle
Posted - 2010.07.24 10:53:00 - [1662]
 

Originally by: Conan Piter
I
Rockets work perfectly well, they just aren't great. Defenders aren't great either, by the way. Of course if rockets had the specs people are asking for, there wouldn't be much of a counter, but that's all a case of balancing, not bugs.

If everything was balanced according to what the players wanted, then everything would be pretty homogeneous. Instead, there are good weapons and bad weapons and it appears to me that much of the fun of Eve is knowing which is which and taking advantage.



Completely wrong way of thinking. Balance is about having good stuff for one kind of situation, and another good stuff for different situation. Not about having good stuff and useless one in any situation.

Di Mulle
Posted - 2010.07.24 11:17:00 - [1663]
 

Edited by: Di Mulle on 24/07/2010 11:18:04
Edited by: Di Mulle on 24/07/2010 11:17:33
Originally by: Milamara

You are confused.
11 million WoW subscribers prove that it makes good business sense to make things easy for those who pay to play. At the end of the day CCP is a business and what matters most to them is not the way you look at the game but the way the thousands of people who want to be given stuff look at it.




And lots of wannabe WOW-killers with mega million budgets wasted and subscribers base lower than EVE may tell you that following beaten path is not 100% guarantee for success...

Why some people always think everyone should eat BigMacs...

Fabienne Jax
Minmatar
Black Science Navigators
Posted - 2010.07.24 15:38:00 - [1664]
 

Originally by: Dakisha

For every one post made in this threadnought, there are several more people who read it, agreed and didn't bother posting because someone else made their point more eloquently.



I'll have to wholeheartedly agree w/ this. I'm one of those who are usually reluctant to speak, but after reading every single post in these 56 pages I don't see the recurring theme directly addressed by CCP. That leads me to believe that CCP either is choosing it's words carefully for a future post, or is completely blind to why these discussions continue.

Granted, I don't experience many of the same in-game issues as other players, but I do sympathize w/ their concerns, and would LIKE to see CCP provide some foundation for continued faith. It appears, right now, that the general playerbase has no kind of assured expectation that CCP can follow through with it's current developmental plan, otherwise, it seems to me, this thread wouldn't have made it to 56 pages.

As a whole, the developer/spokesman posts don't address the bigger picture; they don't satisfy the players craving for an answer to "why" or "how". We begin to reason that these men aren't fit to quell this kind of discontent, regdless of their current station.

There may be a vocal minority among the EVE community, but assuredly there are those who read and respond w/o ever saying a word. I'm happy that so many players have provided such passionate arguments, whether in defence of CCP or not, but my opinion is that CCP's response is embarrasing. Reading of the current plans for the next few yrs leaves me reciting "WTF" in my head 1000x over. I have no experience in business mgmt, but seriously...

...WTF.

Conan Piter
Ways and Means
Posted - 2010.07.24 16:39:00 - [1665]
 

Originally by: PC l0adletter
Originally by: Conan Piter
I think you are being a bit churlish, which was my point I suppose.


And that's exactly my point. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. I'm extremely unhappy with the course of development of this game, and I don't think sycophantic fanboyism (LEAVE CCP ALONE!) makes it better.


I don't think labelling everyone who disagrees with you as sycophantic fanboyism is reasonable, do you? I think you are doing a great job of being a squeaky wheel and you may well get some grease from it. My original point, however, was that the way CCP are being attacked is probably going to result in less communication from CCP in the future, not more. Why should they write a dev blog only to have half of it taken out of context and turned into falsehoods and the rest belittled spitefully?

I personally want to hear from CCP more, even if I don't agree with everything.

And I like the yellow.

Hawk TT
Caldari
Bulgarian Experienced Crackers
Posted - 2010.07.24 17:59:00 - [1666]
 

I agree with Conan Piter! Anyway, I will add my 2 cents...

The state of affairs so far:
1. CCP posts a very informative and open DevBlog, even a rare piece of inside & sensitive information - a precedent in the gaming industry!
2. Around 500-550 unique characters generate 50+ pages, filled up mostly with "misanthropic yelling" (0.157% of EVE Active Accounts / 0.07% of EVE Active Characters)
3. Most of the yelling is related to: "Stop working on new features", "Fix the fleet-lag", "Fix that-favourite-bug-of-mine", "Balance the rockets"

OK, let's see...

New Features / Titles are JUSTIFIED
CCP has REAL passion for EVE and the goal is to make EVE the ultimate SciFi Universe Simulator. Like it or not...
CCP has no other choice, but to diversify EVE and to attract more players and more revenue.
CCP needs larger and diversfied player base, so they could SECURE THE FUTURE OF CCP & EVE.
CCP has to have more game titles on different platforms - putting all the eggs in one basket would be softly spoken STUPID.
Everything comes at a price - EVE is a game for patient and mature people, not for premature jerks.
By implementing such a long-term strategy CCP risks to loose some players. Let it be, it's not going to be a big loss, as far as I read most of the posts...


Fix the fleet-lag
Throwing more people on that would not speed-up the process.
This is not a process of hand-digging a trench...
It takes lots of R&D efforts, VERY specialized tallent and CCP is just breaking new technology grounds.
Last, but not least - large fleet battles kill the fun part of the PvP anyway...
Think of other strategies to avoid "fleet BLOBS", while CCP is working on a long-term solution to fix the lag.

Fix that-favourite-bug-of-mine
Yes, there are hundreds, if not thousands of bugs in some millions lines of code.
Fixing a software bug in a real-time-simulator is not like fixing a spelling mistake with MS Office proofing tools...
If EVE is so buggy (for you), why don't you just cancel you subscription, move your PC to ChromeOS and start playing Flash-MMOs...?

Balance the rocekts...etc.
Probably this could be done easily, and probably it will be done at some point.
So what? Why do you really believe that EVERYTHING should be PERFECTLY BALANCED ALL THE TIME?
How balanced is your real life?

If you life is not perfectly balanced, why don't you jump from a skyscrapper or a tall bridge? Spare the world some misathropic thinking...


Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.07.24 18:45:00 - [1667]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 24/07/2010 18:57:54
Originally by: Hawk TT
I agree with Conan Piter! Anyway, I will add my 2 cents...

The state of affairs so far:
1. CCP posts a very informative and open DevBlog, even a rare piece of inside & sensitive information - a precedent in the gaming industry!


Uh-hu. Sure. Right.

Originally by: Hawk TT
2. Around 500-550 unique characters generate 50+ pages, filled up mostly with "misanthropic yelling" (0.157% of EVE Active Accounts / 0.07% of EVE Active Characters)


Misanthropic yelling? Before accusing people of beeing whatever foreign word comes to your mind, you should check the meaning of the word you use, because that's just nonsense in this context.
Beyond that, you shouldn't underestimate the actual account-number of this "vocal minority" or, vice versa, overestimate the number of people in support of the released 1.5 year-plan of CCP. Noone knows the exact quantity of either "faction", so: Shut up.

Originally by: Hawk TT
3. Most of the yelling is related to: "Stop working on new features", "Fix the fleet-lag", "Fix that-favourite-bug-of-mine", "Balance the rockets"


One more, who didn't understand, what this is about. So just one more time, yet again: We do not want CCP to stop working on new features, but dedicating more time on iterating old features, as well as giving more attention to polishment of new features before releasing them. This is absolutely not the same as what you pretend we want. So once more: Shut up.

Originally by: Hawk TT
yadda yadda yadda


You know, you just remind me of those people, who you pretend we are. Maybe you should think about, how to speak about this so called "vocal minority", before accusing them of beeing misanthrops, jerks or stupid, because that's just falling right back onto you.

Originally by: Hawk TT
If you life is not perfectly balanced, why don't you jump from a skyscrapper or a tall bridge? Spare the world some misathropic thinking...


Smartypants... You wish we were dead? Are we bothering you that much? I wonder why. Or to put it in your own and very nice verbal capacities: Go, **** yourself. Hey, I can write in fancy colours without an actual reason to do that, too. Makes me cool, ain't I? Rolling Eyes

Hawk TT
Caldari
Bulgarian Experienced Crackers
Posted - 2010.07.24 19:27:00 - [1668]
 


Originally by: Ebisu Kami
bla-bla-bla-bla


The fact that you don't know the meaning of "misanthropic" is all your fault ;-)

Wiki-Dictionary Quote

Misanthropy is a generalized dislike, distrust, disgust, contempt and hatred of the human species, human nature, or society. A misanthrope is someone who holds those views and feelings. The word's origin is from Greek words μῖσος (misos, "hatred") and ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos, "man, human being"). It can be considered a form of speciesism or a discrimination based on species.

Some comments
YES, I am bothered of the small-d..ks "vocal minority" HAVING NO CONSTRUCTIVE POSTS...
YES, it's a MINORITY, because you could easily count the number of unique character names in those 56 pages...the number of active accounts and the average number of characters per account is all public information. You do the math!
YES, there are some VERY CONSTRUCTIVE POSTS, BUT THEY GET LOST...Too much crap around!

Funny enough, you react like a premature teenager...Telling me to shut up? Is that all you could "invent"? Coooool...You're cooool...

And one FINAL YES - the world will be a better place wihtout "yelling misanthrops"...You have to agree Laughing



Hegbard
Posted - 2010.07.24 19:38:00 - [1669]
 

Originally by: Hawk TT

2. Around 500-550 unique characters generate 50+ pages, filled up mostly with "misanthropic yelling" (0.157% of EVE Active Accounts / 0.07% of EVE Active Characters)



Please do the math for the philantropes. tia.

Quote:

3. Most of the yelling is related to: "Stop working on new features", "Fix the fleet-lag", "Fix that-favourite-bug-of-mine", "Balance the rockets"



No, most of the yelling is about "start working on features". What's the point of starting working on features when you never finish?

Quote:

CCP has REAL passion for EVE and the goal is to make EVE the ultimate SciFi Universe Simulator. Like it or not...



not. People here mostly care about an internet spaceship game. Not about EVE - the sims in space, EVE - the movie, EVE - the theme park and EVE - the underwear collection.

Quote:

It takes lots of R&D efforts, VERY specialized tallent and CCP is just breaking new technology grounds.



Funny. Where I have worked in the past 15 years, fixing bugs introduced in a release has always been a matter of hours, maybe days and if they are not fixed by then, there's a rollback of code and heads roll. I guess rolling heads is breaking new technology ground with very specialized r&d talent for you.

Last time I introduced performance problems I stayed at work until they were fixed. I guess CCP doesn't care enough about EVE the internet spaceships game to do that.

Quote:

Think of other strategies to avoid "fleet BLOBS", while CCP is working on a long-term solution to fix the lag.



About a week ago my one man blob in a pod lagsploited a system with 6 people in it so that I got a black screen. I'll try to bring a smaller ship and fewer people next time.

Quote:

If you life is not perfectly balanced, why don't you jump from a skyscrapper or a tall bridge? Spare the world some misathropic thinking...



Great thoughts from a great philantrope.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.07.24 20:04:00 - [1670]
 

Originally by: Hawk TT
... Most of the yelling is related to: "Stop working on new features", "Fix the fleet-lag", "Fix that-favourite-bug-of-mine", "Balance the rockets" ...

..failpost, learn to read before you come to conclusions.

PC l0adletter
Posted - 2010.07.24 20:05:00 - [1671]
 


ITT we argue about whether or not people should be nicer to CCP and how many people we think agree with us.


Dealeeo
Posted - 2010.07.24 20:58:00 - [1672]
 

/gingerly places a single long-stem white rose on this thread

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2010.07.24 21:08:00 - [1673]
 

Originally by: Dealeeo

/gingerly places a single long-stem white rose on this thread



/me steals the rose and advertises it in Jita as true sansha white rose - bargain at 2.35 Bill


Anna Weston
Gallente
Holdings Inc
Posted - 2010.07.24 23:43:00 - [1674]
 

Originally by: yani dumyat
Originally by: Dealeeo

/gingerly places a single long-stem white rose on this thread



/me steals the rose and advertises it in Jita as true sansha white rose - bargain at 2.35 Bill




2.35 Billion you say?

/me executes suicide gank on the Perimeter gate.

Dzajic
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.25 08:46:00 - [1675]
 

Truly wonderful. Now that thread has degenerated into random trolling CCP can lock it up and forget about it, without ever giving a single proper answer.

Yes everyone has "their" bug or balance issue they want CCP to look at, but that is only because all of EVE is broken to some extent.

Only customers that CCP has right now and will have for next year and a half till Dust and Incarna go out are "spaceship flying" folks (who by the way consider that to be EVE), and no one can be happy at silly 18 months thing.

Incarna players will supposedly want to undock at one time, if only to get to another station, and that will give them opportunity to see and judge the quality of spaceship parts of game.
Even when talking about Dust, CCP will have to go back to PI and make it worth it enough that people bother hiring mercenaries from another game.

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2010.07.25 11:15:00 - [1676]
 

Originally by: Dzajic
Truly wonderful. Now that thread has degenerated into random trolling CCP can lock it up and forget about it, without ever giving a single proper answer.



Perhaps we have said all that can be said, the ball is in CCP's court. Perhaps Dealeeo was right to place a rose on the thread and we should bow our heads in silence.

Trebor Daehdoow made a good business case, it doesn't represent every view in this thread but opinions have already been expressed in many ways, eloquent and otherwise. I leave the following post here for CCP and place Dealeeos' white rose upon it:

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2010.07.25 11:15:00 - [1677]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow


Here is my argument for why visibly implementing items in the CSM backlog is good business.

1) EVE players can roughly be divided into two groups -- new players that have a high attrition rate, and veterans that stay subscribed practically forever no matter what.

2) Clearly, the optimum strategy is to convert as many new players into veterans as possible. The immersive nature of EVE encourages them to stay around for a long time, even if you don't address their complaints.

3) There are basically two techniques you can use that will increase the number of high lifetime-customer-value veterans. One is to use marketing to increase the new player intake (frequent new feature releases), some of which will become veterans; the other is to polish the game to increase the new player to veteran conversion ratio, which permits organic growth.

4) CCP seems to be leaning heavily towards the first strategy (not just in EVE, but in the development of extensions like Incarna and linkages like DUST). The current players, although most of them don't realize it, are arguing for the latter strategy.

At this point, allow me to concede for the purposes of this argument that the statement from the minutes that "the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features" is entirely correct. I contend that even if this is so, there are compelling business reasons why CCP should devote more resources to polishing the existing game.

5) It is implied in the minutes that DUST and Incarna should be released in about 12-18 months. However, as anyone in the software business knows, schedules have a distressing habit of slipping.

6) If anything should happen to injure the EVE cash cow during the development period, CCP could find itself in serious difficulty. Examples of such risks include another game finally "getting it right" and siphoning off veterans, catastrophic PR failures (or DUST/Incarna delays, which imply even longer waits until player issues are addressed) finally pushing the veterans over the edge, or a failed expansion choking the influx of new players.

7) Similarly, if the new products turn out to be less successful than anticipated, CCP will be back to basically having a single point of failure -- EVE -- and so it would be wise to ensure that it is a cow that can be milked for as long as possible, while you regroup and try something new.

8) Devoting additional resources to polish, if done in the correct way, is a method of buying insurance against the consequences of the risks mentioned above. Some of the benefits include:

* It energizes your existing player base, turning them back into evangelists for your game, which in turn promotes organic growth.

* You can prioritize the polishing process to emphasize items that will impact new player retention (for example, UI improvement) while still providing benefits for the veterans. The CSM can help with prioritization and quick iteration of proposals into forms that get the most bang per developer-buck.

* There is significant PR value in the very fact that you are spending time and effort to make EVE more "noob-friendly". It gives potential customers a reason to take a second look.

* It may actually turn out to be a more profitable strategy than the current one, but even if not, the cost of the insurance is low.

It is for these, and many other reasons, that I believe you should re-assess your development priorities with respect to EVE.

Sincerely,
Robert Woodhead,
CSM5 Delegate

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2010.07.25 11:16:00 - [1678]
 


scunner funk
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.25 11:17:00 - [1679]
 


Marcus Vorenius
Caldari
Task Force 42
Posted - 2010.07.25 12:32:00 - [1680]
 

Edited by: Marcus Vorenius on 25/07/2010 12:46:16
"Deliver value to your customers early and often! The benefits of agile’s incremental delivery approach are very quantifiable." http://agile.scumniotales.com/agile-roi/

it would be interesting to have a look at the factors that influence the Return on Investment (ROI) for Incarna. The ROI would be: Business value (or benefits) minus development effort. The tangible benefits of Incarna would probably be "net increase in subscribers" (new subcribers minus cancelled subs) and <insert potential benefits from Product Owner here>
In addition to the tangible benefits, CCP has probably added a long list of intangible benefits like <insert mumbo-jumbo from Sales & Marketing here>

It is standard project management procedures to review your business case (e.g. the ROI) after each phase (read: Sprint?) of the project, to make sure that you are on track and inform key stakeholders if it's going south.

TL;DR: Customer reactions to CCP Zulu's Dev Blog means that the ROI of Incarna/Dust is probably being looked at again and the more doubt there is about the benefits, the more the business case is crumbling.

Quote:
The product backlog is a high-level document for the entire project. It contains backlog items: broad descriptions of all required features, wish-list items, etc. prioritized by business value. It is the “What” that will be built. It is open and editable by anyone and contains rough estimates of both business value and development effort. Those estimates help the Product Owner to gauge the timeline and, to a limited extent, prioritize. For example, if the “add spellcheck” and “add table support” features have the same business value, the one with the smallest development effort will probably have higher priority, because the ROI (Return On Investment) is higher.

The product backlog is the property of the Product Owner. Business value is set by the Product Owner. Development effort is set by the Team."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum_(development)


"Deliver value to your customers early and often!" - fix my freakin' rockets... with sugar and honey

Note: i have simplified ROI on purpose (KISS)


Pages: first : previous : ... 52 53 54 55 [56] 57 58 59 60 ... : last (66)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only