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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:07:00 - [121]
 

So, from this, CCP runs 18 dev teams. Of those, full half are committed to Incarna, and seven of those nine are stolen from "other projects". If those "other projects" are Eve, then your comment that "the resource cost from Eve is very limited" is a hilarious lie. If that refers to WoD/Dust/some other unspecified future project, then I have to assume that all the teams for all of CCP's MMOs are in the count of 18, and given that exactly zero are working on any other projects, then I can't help but conclude that they're all borderline vapourware. The first one would **** me off immensely, because Incarna is in no way 3x as important as the rest of Eve combined, not even in terms of short-run dev cycle planning. The second wouldn't be as bad for me personally, but I suspect that the gaming press might be interested to know that you have a grand total of nobody working on your next two big, flashy publicly announced titles.

We have a further two teams committed to Spacebook and Planetville. I won't begrudge that, since my biggest complaint with both is a lack of depth(well, and Planetville's utterly obnoxious click-intense nature, but that's just because it chose to replace depth with busy work), but I can guarantee that this will lead to some pretty serious rage from the players.

Of the three who actually do work on internet spaceships, you have one working on art, which is cool and necessary, but not really what most people care about(except when a new Scorp model drops, ofc). Both of the others are working on PvE content. Again, I don't mind PvE content, and I think there's some cool things that can be done, especially if your third attempt at making people do group missions actually succeeds where L4's and L5's failed, but that's a pretty narrow part of the game. For literally everything else - industry, PvP balance, UI, POSes, the works - you have nobody. Nobody is working on fixing what's wrong with 90% of the game.

Seriously, this may be the worst attempt at damage control I've ever seen, and I watch RL politicians the world over. Yes, you're working on some stuff. Yes, you hire a PhD from a big school. No, that doesn't mean that you're doing the tenth part of what we expect from you. You basically just gave every ragepost for the last week numbers to back up their arguments. How does "CCP cares three times as much about Incarna as Eve itself!" sound as a slogan?

Sacul
Aliastra
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:07:00 - [122]
 

Eve's unique selling point is the one shard massive engagements.

Currently those fleet engagements are next to impossible.

Get your priorities straight and put more than a measily 17 out of 142 people on that!

If the core of your game is un-playable the rest means nothing!

FIX-FLEET-LAG (attleast to manageable levels)!


iP0D
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:08:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: ghosttr


For us to have any faith that the CSM works at all, you need to tackle at least some minor problems to show that something is being done.





Oh, they will. As always they will produce a bunch of minor items, in true fashion of marketing efforts. Either way, that does not address the structural gap in understanding here, plus considering how things always go you have to worry what they'll break in the process.


Adam Kravallion
21 SVC Corp
Looney Toons.
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:08:00 - [124]
 

Posting to confirm i'm looking forward to Incarna.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:09:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
It also occurs to me that you're drastically overestimating the number of current players that are going to be pulled in by Incarna. We wouldn't be here if we required a "character" to "identify with". ;-)

-Liang


"This feature wont attract new players because all the players you already have didn't need it to subscribe"? Can you see the logic gap?

There is, to be fair to CCP, a LOT of interest in Incarna, and from what I read on other sites, not having an avatar is kind of a deal breaker for a lot of people. It's not about functionality, it's about attachment. Even if their guy can't do anything outside his ship, they still want to see him.

I think the real issue here is CCP trying to do too many things at once with EVE. Incarna and Dust at the same time, plus World Of Darkness, plus the requirement to maintain the core game and income source is just too many priority projects for a small company.

CCP assigning just one out of their 17 dev teams to working on the issues and bugs backlog, publicising the existence of this team, and maintainging a list - just a simple list - of what has been fixed by this team, what is currently being fixed, and what will be fixed next would go a long long long way to placating a currently very disillusioned and disappointed playerbase.

In a way, I can see where Zulupark's confusion comes from. From his perspective, it looks like this:

CCP: Hey guys we're running 3 major projects to expand EVE, in new and exciting ways that will give you ways to experience the EVE-verse in ways you've never had a chance to do before, and in ways which NO other MMO offers! You can almost taste the awesome! What do you think of that?

Playerbase: WE HATE YOU SO MUCH! WE WILL KILL YOUR DOG WHILE YOU SLEEP! RARRR!!!!!

CCP: ...wtf!? Shocked


Of course we the playerbase see it rather differently. I dont need to rehearse the issues all over again, since approximately one in every 7 posts made in the last week does so in detail. But I would say that if the CSM achieves nothing else than to highlight this huge difference in perception and priorities and if CCP choose to confront the issue rather than shoot the messenger and pull up the drawbridge, then every penny it has cost will be money very well spent.

Zulupark: tell those other devs that you're not crazy for making contact with your playerbase. They're the ones who are crazy for not doing this. They're the guy that just keeps on taking stronger painkillers for the headaches and pretending everything is OK. You're the guy that got a scan and found a tumour while there was still time to operate.

Ms Michigan
Gallente
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Fusion Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:13:00 - [126]
 

Allright - I gotta weigh in on this one.

* A+ for CCP posting this sort of blog and CCP Explorer for replying. But...

* ? for why only some items are responded too. E.G. I read tons of Dev Blog feedback all the time and many topics that are important to players or seemingly important are NEVER addressed. The CSM is concerned and is now involved because you made them so, yet not all their topics are addressed in a line by line fashion. Even some of these on here which are recurring themes CCP explorer has not addressed. Why doesn't CCP just take the time to make up an HTML survey that all players can or will have to fill out that has every topic raised in recent months? Each player has to put in order their top ten concerns and then CCP takes those top 50 and decides if it is worth their time/money to fix. Don't you think that would be super easy to do to give you a quick statistic on what players are griping about. Any item that can't be fixed - REPLY TO and state why in a player wide email or blog. Simple as that.

* B- for Incarna - I agree with your observation that most non-EVE players want it but then they are NON-EVE players. Remember that a pyramid is only as solid as your base. Ask like many have - What does this add to EVE?? Probably nothing but may be a cheap way along with 514 to get more cash. Dust-514 will ROCK but will it be easy to add to EVE? The numbers seem otherwise. Which brings me to my last rant...

Money - it is the 500lb gorilla that I have seen only one player touch on and Zulu alluded to. But lets' face it - lets drag it out into the open. I know from my industry in aviation - we would not even be having this discussion of developer allocation if it weren't for a lack of money. CCP would have just hired more people. So I ask - is it a problem? Is there too much ISK faucet in EVE? IS the game too skewed towards the existing base and away from new customer? Now I see you trying to grow your business CCP but I just wonder if really we aren't talking about a cash flow issue that maybe needs to be brought up?

Just my two caring cent's for EVE. Thanks for reading.

iP0D
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:13:00 - [127]
 

This thread is missing the obvious pro alts to pollute the painful parts of the devblog and the constructive replies from players, where's CCP Quell?


Mrs LubaLuba
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:14:00 - [128]
 

Nice Dev Blog. Keeps us in the loop as to what is going on in the future and Incarna is definately going to be a big update with a large team to develop it naturally.

Got to say though my confidence has wained over the years with regards to the CSM. Originally, or at least i thought it was, used to express ideas and how best to introduce something. Now the CSM is just for people who want to make demands to CCP in how the game should be played for themselves and their large alliances and no one else, or to fix something because it's too hard for them. BTW, lag is an issue, always will be, personaly i think it's being handled in the best possible way. And producing minutes that make it sound like the future of Eve is grim... shameful.

The game is not broken.... You just cannot play it Laughing

Gerard Deneth
Caldari
Pavlov Labs GmBH
Independent Faction
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:15:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
In the last the major additions or overhauls to the EVE API have been the sovereignty changes, mail addition, notification addition, calendar addition and research point addition. In addition there have been tens of defects fixes as well as performance improvements.


No Offence, but one of the first things I learned in the single HR class I took on the way to getting my BBA:Accounting degree was that "claiming tens of defect fixes without being able to cite a single one" is something that quite handily erodes support and belief.

Mr LaForge
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:16:00 - [130]
 

Am I the only one bothered by the fact that since eve is made up by and large of people who love to hurt other people in the game that the AI might learn that too....

CCP: "Our next expansion is called Skynet. Ain't that great!!"

ceaon
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:16:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: ceaon
so wait from 300 ppl that work at CCP you only get this 22 ppl on eve ?
With my math it works out to 54 that work directly on EVE.

wee are not talking about same thing because in my world and on my view the ppl in charge of quality are not on "production line" u get 22 persons making stuff and 15 testing and checking what this 22 make
if CCP was a bike factory u get 22 ppl working on the production line, 22 ppl that make stuff and ensure the income, the 15 dont count because they dont create stuff

the 10 eve gate developers dont count sry but NO, eve gate only allow text communication and most of player already have forums chat irc room and stuff, dont count this 10 because u decide to reinvent the wheel and compete whit allot of communication platforms that player already use.
you can count the 10 eve gate developers when players can do something that cant be done from other web app in eve, one example is changing skills

ihcn
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:20:00 - [132]
 

Making AI to help test fleet fights sounds like just about the most interesting thing ever. Things like that make me wish I was graduating sooner.

Jack Coutu
Gallente
Percussive Diplomacy
The Phoenix. Consortium
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:24:00 - [133]
 

Excellent troll post Zulu.

Ix Forres
Caldari
Righteous Chaps
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:28:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: Ix Forres on 16/07/2010 20:32:49
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Ix Forres
In the interests of transparency, which you seem to be trying to move towards here, could you detail which teams have contributed to the EVE API in, say, the last year?
In the last the major additions or overhauls to the EVE API have been the sovereignty changes, mail addition, notification addition, calendar addition and research point addition. In addition there have been tens of defects fixes as well as performance improvements.


Those are minor additions at best, and often heavily flawed additions. Sov changes were forced by the change to sov mechanics- if you'd failed to update that, 0.0 alliances would have had a fit.

There are still numerous outstanding bugs and inconsistencies- techlab has at least one thread on a years-old bug that renders POS work with the API all the more frustrating and difficult. We still don't have mail bodies, we're still being told we can't crawl EVE Gate when you won't give APIs for half the functionality in there despite promising that you would make EVE Gate features available through the API. And don't even get me started on the security overhaul, the write support and so on that has been discussed for years and never even acknowledged by CCP.

Can I, as I initially asked and you failed to answer, and the rest of the playerbase be told, if there is _one_ person whose job it is to work on the API from all those hundreds? And specifically how many people have it as a responsibility in their job description to add and improve it?

I am very close to stopping working on EVE Metrics, much as it pains me to say it. Why should I even bother any more?

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2010.07.16 20:34:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Ix Forres
Myself and one other person have been working on http://www.eve-metrics.com/ for a while now. We just released a major, major update. We spent maybe 80 hours on it each, so call it 3 weeks of full-time work from a developer. We produced that. The 10 man team working full-time on EVE Gate produced something that does a fraction of the work in over a year.
The team that worked on EVE Gate had to build a the foundation for a web site cluster that connects to a real-time simulation cluster and provide a two-way real-time communication between the two clusters. The web site had to be architectured to scale to 100's of thousands of users. A lot of time was spent on testing and performance analysis, as well as defensive coding and exploit testing. On top of that the team had to provide the features for the first iteration of the web site.

Plutonian
Gallente
Intransigent
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:35:00 - [136]
 

Edited by: Plutonian on 16/07/2010 20:36:06
Thank you for the response CCP Zulu. (edit: and CCP Explorer)

Ever play Mace Griffin Bounty Hunter? That title attempted to incorporate space sim flight-mechanics along with FPS. Unfortunately, it did neither well, and to this day it's generally held up at any dev meeting as a warning against splitting focus. (Hell, I still keep one just in case I get sucked into an surprise-ambush development meeting.Laughing)

Incarna appears to be an element which will, also, only split focus. Consider: if you do manage to attract the 'I-hate-spaceships so-let's-walk-around' crowd... how will you keep them there unless you constantly develop new content for them? And if you're doing that, will not the spaceship side of the game suffer? Development resources are never endless.

Let's look at Incarna from a die-hard spaceship fan's point of view. If I run a mission, will I now have to walk through corridors to talk to an agent? Will Incarna add anything to my spaceship game other than more meaningless (and not fun) clicks? In addition, will fixes be further delayed because the spaceship crowd now has to down out the 'bartender' crowd to get some dev resources?

Honestly, we haven't even released Incarna yet, have no 'full-body avatar-lovers' wandering around, and already the spaceship side of the game is put on hold for two years.

How do you see this working?

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2010.07.16 20:36:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
So, from this, CCP runs 18 dev teams. Of those, full half are committed to Incarna, and seven of those nine are stolen from "other projects". If those "other projects" are Eve, then your comment that "the resource cost from Eve is very limited" is a hilarious lie. If that refers to WoD/Dust/some other unspecified future project, then I have to assume that all the teams for all of CCP's MMOs are in the count of 18, and given that exactly zero are working on any other projects, then I can't help but conclude that they're all borderline vapourware. The first one would **** me off immensely, because Incarna is in no way 3x as important as the rest of Eve combined, not even in terms of short-run dev cycle planning. The second wouldn't be as bad for me personally, but I suspect that the gaming press might be interested to know that you have a grand total of nobody working on your next two big, flashy publicly announced titles.
I deeply apologise, but your assumptions and your conclusions are all wrong.

Selene D'Celeste
Caldari
The D'Celeste Trading Company
ISK Six
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:36:00 - [138]
 

Edited by: Selene D''Celeste on 16/07/2010 20:37:38
Originally by: Ix Forres
I am very close to stopping working on EVE Metrics, much as it pains me to say it. Why should I even bother any more?


I hope this doesn't happen. I don't know what to say that is encouraging, but I want to see more player-supported tools/services/events/everything, not less.

It is extremely frustrating that so much potential with the API is wasted. Utilizing the community to build upon your product could produce so much more than it does now ... if there were even a handful of developers working on the API full time, let alone expanding into areas such as UI modding, I can't even fathom the volume of quality (and frightening, let's be fair =P) material the playerbase would produce. I think this is more true with EVE than other MMOs due to the strong personal investment and emotional attachment.

Sigh. I hope this isn't far off in the future, but with everything else going on it will at least be years away I fear =/

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
So, from this, CCP runs 18 dev teams. Of those, full half are committed to Incarna, and seven of those nine are stolen from "other projects". If those "other projects" are Eve, then your comment that "the resource cost from Eve is very limited" is a hilarious lie. If that refers to WoD/Dust/some other unspecified future project, then I have to assume that all the teams for all of CCP's MMOs are in the count of 18, and given that exactly zero are working on any other projects, then I can't help but conclude that they're all borderline vapourware. The first one would **** me off immensely, because Incarna is in no way 3x as important as the rest of Eve combined, not even in terms of short-run dev cycle planning. The second wouldn't be as bad for me personally, but I suspect that the gaming press might be interested to know that you have a grand total of nobody working on your next two big, flashy publicly announced titles.
I deeply apologise, but your assumptions and your conclusions are all wrong.


The teams listed in the devblog don't include the members of the DUST or WoD teams, as mentioned earlier in the thread.

ChrisIsherwood
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:36:00 - [139]
 

Thank you very much!!!!

I may disagree with some of CCP's choices and priorities, but your openness is world-class! It goes a long way towards trust and understanding. Except for the usual anonymous e-forum denizens of course.

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:37:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Bartholomeus Crane on 16/07/2010 20:40:09
Originally by: ihcn
Making AI to help test fleet fights sounds like just about the most interesting thing ever. Things like that make me wish I was graduating sooner.


Knowing a bit about Artificial Intelligence I can almost assure you that that "borderline sentient AI-testing automation feature" will be neither borderline sentient nor have proper AI in it. As for automation feature for testing: welcome to the '90ies, glad you could make it.

If CCP wants to disagree, fine, prove me wrong. I'd be happy to have a look at it. Almost free of charge.

BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:38:00 - [141]
 

I really like this blog and would like to put a moment into relying to it, hopefully someone at CCP will read it, this may get long so bear with me.

First off, Incarna
I understand CCP's wish to get this out the door, and I think it will be good for the game. I know a lot of people that say it's not with Eves vision of a dark, cold universe of space ships, but I think they many times forget that the vision also includes a "complete sci-fi experience" something that has been mentioned in other blogs, by both CCP and players.

I think the main concern with Incarna is that between it and Dust, there are a lot of devs being drawn away from the portions of Eve that still aren't fixed. I'm talking things like rockets and lack of missile launchers on ships. Things even CCP knows and admits are broken, not just what the players would like, but we'll return to this.

Dust 514/EVE link
Personally I don't think most Eve players care about Dust for one of two reasons. 1) You have mostly an MMO crowd here, not saying some don't play FPS too, but the MMO is what attracts most of us 2) You have a PC crowd here, again, not saying some don't play console too, but that does eliminate a lot of people. While you say that only 7 devs are working on the "EVE Link", I (correct me if I'm wrong) take that to mean there are more working on DUST, but only 7 working on the link between DUST and Eve. This is relatively small, and I'm glad to hear it is. CCP's concern is making money, and I'm not ignoring that, but as players we have different concerns, and most don't line up with DUST.

In-Space features
I'm glad to hear that one team will be working with PvE. I think this was one of the things CSM wanted fixed and I think it's something that all players want fixed. Even those that consider themselves hardcore PvP players who hate carebears and ratting need to earn money somehow, and we all agree grinding sucks. We also all have those times when we are the only one on and do some solo play. I think, directly (make the carebears happy), or indirectly (make the isk grind for pvpers more fun), working on PvE will benefit all of Eve.

The art/effects team. I'm glad to see they are working on finishing left-over content, but there's something there that REALLY worries me. That is that they are working on left-over content from all the way back to Apoc (March 2009, 1 year 4 months ago) and "on some levels Trinity" (Dec 2007, 2 years 7 months I believe?). I don't believe that a team that size has any hope at all of catching up on that much left-over content. I think this is one of the areas that players would really like to see Devs devoted to. They feel that once new content is released it's simply left as is, and I feel that this confirms it. Sure, there is a few devs working on that content, but the quality that CCP supposedly aims for simply isn't there. There are less than 22 devs devoted to left-over work from as far back as 6 expansions ago, while 70 people work on the Trinity expansion. Once Trinity is released there will be even more left-over work for them to catch up on while the rest of the devs move on to a new expansion, it's a never ending cycle.

[Cont...]

Max Hardcase
The Scope
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:39:00 - [142]
 

Edited by: Max Hardcase on 16/07/2010 20:41:56
Edited by: Max Hardcase on 16/07/2010 20:40:16
Originally by: Liang Nuren
It also occurs to me that you're drastically overestimating the number of current players that are going to be pulled in by Incarna. We wouldn't be here if we required a "character" to "identify with". ;-)

-Liang

The only "character" I want to identify with is a Hurricane with blood red armor plates....
Or nice and white with a Japanese style flower mon.

BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:40:00 - [143]
 

If CCP has any hope of catching up on current left-over work, UI improvements (not a full rewrite, as CCP has stated is nearly impossible), balance fixes (rockets), models that need completed (missile lauchers), POS issues (again, mainly UI, menus, etc, but also the look of the toothpick with junk floating around it). Broken FW (I don't play it, that just seems to be the opition), etc. There REALLY needs to be an expansion devoted to no bran new ideas, and fixing what is already there. I'm not just talking about bugs, which I know not all of CCP can work on, but broken art (catalyst model, missile launchers), sound (a running joke), etc. Every time this is mentioned the very next comment is "not all CCP devs can work on fixing bugs", but I think if there was a refocus in CCP to have everyone that can fix bugs/imbalance/issues to do so, and those that couldn’t to focus on making what already exists that much better, CCP would achieve that “Excellence” that they strive for. Even web design people would have something to do *cough*forums*cough*.

I always wondered if this kind of wish was something only a few forum trolls kept going on about, but it seems that most of Eve believes this as well, I draw that option from the CSM minutes. “CSM remained unconvinced of CCPs commitment to excellence, even after Nathan's arguments were heard.” This quote being one example. CCP believes in its commitment, but the players don’t share that, and if it isn’t perceived by the player base then it doesn’t matter how well CCP thinks that it’s doing.

I’m sorry I deviated from commenting on the dev blog for a while there, but I think this was the appropriate place for it. I’m not trying to blast CCP here, I’m well aware any business has profits to worry about, and new expansions, Dust, etc will bring in those profits. However, from a players perspective (i.e. not worrying about profits), there is a lot of work to be done on 2+ years of left-overs, and not a lot of devs being devoted to this area, is this really the Excellence Initiative?

Eve Gate
My only comment here is that I hope these people, “dedicated web development team”, also works on other web based areas besides Eve Gate, such as forums (again) and some of the new CSM tools. I was very happy to read about those in the CSM minutes, they would greatly improve feedback between the players and CCP, can’t wait to see them go live.

The Others
I’m very happy with this area, but much like the in space features teams I think more resources can be devoted here. Between this and In-Space features Devs, (i.e. the people working on making spaceships better), you have 37 devs working on improving current game mechanics and catching up on old stuff, and 70 working on new content, which will create more stuff to be worked on and caught up with, but I’ve said enough about that.

Again though I’m happy with this area. I’ve seen players mention the idea for “fleet fight in a can” before. I don’t know if CCP got the idea from them or not, and I know nothing will be quite as good as live testing, but I think this will really help CCP narrow down bugs and make improvements. It’s good to see that it’s a goal of CCPs. The same with the people doing live debugging on TQ. I know debugging on a live server is always something to worry about, but I think when a problem (such as fleet lag) occurs that is as large as the current one (fleet lag), drastic measures sometimes need to be taken and the long term benefits will outweigh any short term problems caused by live testing. Nothing can give the results of debugging on an unplanned large scale fleet fight.

[Cont again...]

sinfulangel
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:40:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
So, from this, CCP runs 18 dev teams. Of those, full half are committed to Incarna, and seven of those nine are stolen from "other projects". If those "other projects" are Eve, then your comment that "the resource cost from Eve is very limited" is a hilarious lie. If that refers to WoD/Dust/some other unspecified future project, then I have to assume that all the teams for all of CCP's MMOs are in the count of 18, and given that exactly zero are working on any other projects, then I can't help but conclude that they're all borderline vapourware. The first one would **** me off immensely, because Incarna is in no way 3x as important as the rest of Eve combined, not even in terms of short-run dev cycle planning. The second wouldn't be as bad for me personally, but I suspect that the gaming press might be interested to know that you have a grand total of nobody working on your next two big, flashy publicly announced titles.

We have a further two teams committed to Spacebook and Planetville. I won't begrudge that, since my biggest complaint with both is a lack of depth(well, and Planetville's utterly obnoxious click-intense nature, but that's just because it chose to replace depth with busy work), but I can guarantee that this will lead to some pretty serious rage from the players.

Of the three who actually do work on internet spaceships, you have one working on art, which is cool and necessary, but not really what most people care about(except when a new Scorp model drops, ofc). Both of the others are working on PvE content. Again, I don't mind PvE content, and I think there's some cool things that can be done, especially if your third attempt at making people do group missions actually succeeds where L4's and L5's failed, but that's a pretty narrow part of the game. For literally everything else - industry, PvP balance, UI, POSes, the works - you have nobody. Nobody is working on fixing what's wrong with 90% of the game.

Seriously, this may be the worst attempt at damage control I've ever seen, and I watch RL politicians the world over. Yes, you're working on some stuff. Yes, you hire a PhD from a big school. No, that doesn't mean that you're doing the tenth part of what we expect from you. You basically just gave every ragepost for the last week numbers to back up their arguments. How does "CCP cares three times as much about Incarna as Eve itself!" sound as a slogan?


Well said.


BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:40:00 - [145]
 

Last Words

I like this dev blog, I like all dev blogs. Just as you guys rely on feedback from the forums, the players rely on feedback from the devs. It’s always good to hear what CCP is thinking and planning, players never like to be treated like mushrooms… One thing that worries me, I think a majority of the “bitter vets” think that CCP is all talk and no action. They “commit to Excellence” but don’t really show it. I keep mentioning rockets, not because it’s a big thing, but because it’s so small and has been a problem for so long. If CCP can’t be counted on to fix issues like this, then how can we count on the big things? UI and corp roles have long been an issue, same with POS (dear god I hate setting those up, nothing about setting up a POS is good), there is a dead horse POS thread that has been around since 2006… TWO THOUSAND AND SIX! It has 66 pages worth of comments, and CCP won’t go near it and has no plans to. The community obviously sees this as a problem, so how can CCP say they are committed to excellence when they won’t listen to 4 years worth of player concerns?

I remain hopeful because I know CCP isn’t one person, CCP Zulu, you’ve only recently taken the role of Senior Producer and can’t be held accountable for what those that have come before you have done. However, I think CCP needs to make a commitment not just to Excellence, but to Excellence in the eyes of the players. Don’t just speak about it in blogs and minutes, but show us with ACTIONS. Incarnia and Dust have already been planned, and I know CCP won’t just drop them to work on other stuff, I don’t expect them to. However, when that 18 months is up I hope you will remember this post and return the devs working on those areas so they can make some major improvements in Eve that players want to see.

-BeanBagKing
[Finally finished Very Happy]

Agiosgeogios
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:41:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Ix Forres
Myself and one other person have been working on http://www.eve-metrics.com/ for a while now. We just released a major, major update. We spent maybe 80 hours on it each, so call it 3 weeks of full-time work from a developer. We produced that. The 10 man team working full-time on EVE Gate produced something that does a fraction of the work in over a year.
The team that worked on EVE Gate had to build a the foundation for a web site cluster that connects to a real-time simulation cluster and provide a two-way real-time communication between the two clusters. The web site had to be architectured to scale to 100's of thousands of users. A lot of time was spent on testing and performance analysis, as well as defensive coding and exploit testing. On top of that the team had to provide the features for the first iteration of the web site.


And yet you cant get it to work when you want over 50 people for any event, list, mail etc.. You do know this right? The 20 man team delivered a **** product and the 10 still working on it cant improve a thing since its launch.

I bet the icelandic governemnt sponsors these jobs in a anti-unemployement program or you are listing interns as regular employees. If neither is the case a few of those 10 should be fired and replaced asap.

Shaalira D'arc
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:42:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Ze'ev Sinraali
Originally by: CCP Zulu
Currently they are focusing on "fleet fight in a can," which is a borderline sentient AI-testing automation feature...


YOU'VE DOOMED US ALL, CCP.


Confirming that CCP's next expansion is Skynet.

As an aside, perhaps you can get more mass lag test participation by having all the human volunteers team up in a gang against a fleet controlled by your borderline sentient AI. That might be interesting.

Pherusa Plumosa
Minmatar
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:42:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu
We have one team (at this point) assigned to EVE Gate development and iteration, and that won‘t change for the foreseeable future. Note that this team is a dedicated Web development team. I had planned on using them to fix fleet lag but was talked out of it.

If this was supposed to be funny, I have to dissapoint you. Actually, it's pretty sad and cynical. If you don't have enough people to fix the Eve-gameplay, then tell your management to stop wasting our subscription money on side projects in Atlanta, Shanghai, New Castle on Incarna, Dust, WoD and god knows what else, and hire additional people to fix Eve.

And your attempt to blame the CSM is beyond poor. Everybody knows CCP had plenty of time to review the CSM minutes. The point is, CCP didn't perceive the fact, they have put fixing Eve on halt as problematic. Otherwise they would have censored this sentences for shure. I suppose, those have been the last CSM-meeting minutes published this detailed. Next years one will be screened forwards and backwards by every PR guy running around inside CCP.

Netacq
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:43:00 - [149]
 

>First off, Incarna
>(9 teams, approximately 70 developers)
>Development of Incarna is something that CCP has committed to for multiple reasons,
>but the most prominent one is fairly simple.
>To achieve our goal of EVE being a complete sci-fi experience we must have full body
>avatars
.

But you are wrong...
SciFi-Games are based on the fantasy of the players - you wish to create a shooter.

With PI you did the first step to cut empire and 0.0.
I'm afraid in the near future 0.0 does not need the empire anymore...

___
...the way ist bad, but we get more money...

iP0D
Posted - 2010.07.16 20:43:00 - [150]
 

Edited by: iP0D on 16/07/2010 20:46:15
Originally by: CCP Explorer
The team that worked on EVE Gate had to build a the foundation for a web site cluster that connects to a real-time simulation cluster and provide a two-way real-time communication between the two clusters. The web site had to be architectured to scale to 100's of thousands of users. A lot of time was spent on testing and performance analysis, as well as defensive coding and exploit testing. On top of that the team had to provide the features for the first iteration of the web site.


So .. don't take this as a sign of disrespect or anything, just curiosity. Where is the research stage in that project, let's be honest at some point there must have been a study on integration prospects with existing media and applications external to CCP (because of the very principle nature of EVE, not even mentioning the consequences of the sandbox here in terms of community creativity). Or some study on the question of usefullness of instant messaging feature sets as a potential feature implementation in light of long existing similar media, both commonplace and well established among subscriber communities.

Your argument is somehow, correct me if I am wrong, coming across as if the unilateral bulk of the workload did not relate to specification, research, integration prospects or the project remaining in touch with common principles of the product.

This is not a strange question btw, we've seen interviews with Helga, the project lead, where the interviewer asked the same questions but got basically no response. In one interview the host was deliberately restating the core matter of the question, yet all he got was a vague comment on how much hard work had been delivered. I mean, when you ask "why did you introduce communicative features which your users have their own long and deeply established existing media and methods for" you would think that this deserves an answer, considering the strong focus of social networking as it has existed in EVE for years and years, without EVE Gate, with countless of players and organisations investing in and producing their own solutions and integrations on top of globally established elements of social networking.

Nobody questions the hard work. But the focus just seems really off beat right from the start. Also, please, no selective quoting :-)


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