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iP0D
Posted - 2010.07.19 19:40:00 - [1021]
 

Originally by: Windjammer
Originally by: Mynxee
Originally by: Marlenus
It's not "bear with us guys, this is going to be slow for a while"; it's the total and flat "no" that I cannot comprehend.


Oh we heard the "slow" and "eventually" message too, at different times. The bigger frustration? A bunch of pages back in this thread, Soundwave said that some CSM issues were being worked on right now.

Oh really? Gee, that sounds ... well, to coin a phrase, awesome.

A few posts after his, I asked which ones and how they knew they were CSM issues.

No reply, here in the thread or anywhere else.

Maddening, tbh, the reasons my imaginative little brain can come up with for that...although the reason I hope is true is that Soundwave simply didn't notice my question.


Hey. Aren't you supposed to be "managing subscriber expectations"?Twisted Evil Better start doing your job or else.

Windjammer


Managing subscriber expectations gets a bit of a sour taste in the light of crowd control production on the basis of a strict application of technical doctrine to every part of development and corporate processes. Regardless of good intentions at CCP.

Shame.


Arakkis Melanogaster
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.07.19 19:42:00 - [1022]
 

I play EVE because because I like internet spaceships and meaningful PvP. No other developer has put out another internet spaceships game worth a **** or anything with meaningful PvP. I haven't messed with spacebook or PI because I really don't care about these things. I want to play internet spaceships. Unless absolutely forced to, I will not play Second Life in Space. Incarna is a complete waste of time in terms of making EVE a better game. It is a completely separate game because you are no longer flying an internet spaceship. Adding random other minigames is all well and good, but not when there are glaring problems with the main core of a game. In case it hasn't sunk in yet, fix internet spaceships.

shoot me
Posted - 2010.07.19 19:43:00 - [1023]
 

As long as these stations we will be walking in are as detailed and impressive as the ones in mass effect I am sure it will be worth it. However, going by how PI turned out, it will probably look more like Pac-Man without the white dots and pills to eat. I hope CCP prove me wrong and, abandoning the main game for 2 years for WIS transforms the game for the better.

Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
Posted - 2010.07.19 20:02:00 - [1024]
 

Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow
.. the following statement concerns me greatly (and sorry Zulu for putting you on the hook for this one)




"EVE Gate

(1 team, approximately 10 developers)

We have one team (at this point) assigned to EVE Gate development and iteration, and that won‘t change for the foreseeable future. Note that this team is a dedicated Web development team. I had planned on using them to fix fleet lag but was talked out of it."



EVE gate is nice. I use it, but its not nearly as important as fleet lag.




For the umpteenth time....

The team working on EVE Gate are Web Developers, WEB DEVELOPERS - (you know HTML code and all that stuff?) They would be about as useful working on fleet lag as an assembled group of Mongolian Yaks.

In short this team has no skill set to 'fix lag'. CCP Zulupark was making teh funnies he could just have easily written:

We have one team (at this point) assigned to cleaning the offices, and that won‘t change for the foreseeable future. Note that this team is a dedicated cleaning team. [b]I had planned on using them to fix fleet lag but was talked out of it.

Geddit? No? I give up.

C.




Quoted for emphasis

Thanks,
Zen

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.07.19 20:04:00 - [1025]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 19/07/2010 20:15:38
Originally by: Marlenus
Yeah, I know, but that seems to have been undermined by the dev blog this thread is about, which makes it brutally clear there are currently no developer resources for working on backlog issues. "Slow" isn't credible if nobody at all is working on the items. The "no" you got makes much more sense in that case.


Nobody can tell me, that they can not patch together a single team of 3 code-dwellers and 2 testers from that Incarna-alotment and assign them to backlog-issues. It just makes no sense to us and none of the provided answers by Zulu, Explorer, Navigator and Hellmar gave a sufficing reason to that, beyond: "We can't!".
I guess the reason is, that by Zulu's own definition there are currently only between 6 to maybe 20 code-dwellers at max involved at Incarna at all (seriously, check their given numbers, it's scary).
What makes matters worse is, that this could have already happened quite some time before, but instead they choose to push the pile away and added more parts to the scrapheap over and over again. Now it's collapsing over them.

Originally by: Marlenus
I, too, noticed that Soundwave said some of the CSM items actually were being worked on but he wasn't at liberty to say which ones. If there was interest in oiling the troubled waters, you'd think somebody with authority would step up and talk about that.


That puzzled several other people, too. Either he blantently lied or... I don't know another reasonable alternative, because if it is indeed some CSM-item, then I don't really see a single reason why the CSM is not aware of that. You know... the CSM is under an NDA... and... They are the ****ing CSM! Why in hell shouldn't they know which item he was talking about, if they're obvioulsy that very group of stakeholders, who brought it forward (regardless on if it was an old CSM or the current one)? So we either got yet again a serious communication-breakdown or -barrier there or he lied. Currently I dunno which is worse....

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.19 20:21:00 - [1026]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/07/2010 20:27:18
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/07/2010 20:26:28
Originally by: Ebisu Kami

Nobody can tell me, that they can not patch together a single team of 3 code-dwellers and 2 testers from that Incarna-alotment and assign them to backlog-issues. It just makes no sense to us and none of the provided answers by Zulu, Explorer, Navigator and Hellmar gave a sufficing reason to that, beyond: "We can't!".



It is inappropriate to complain about resource allocation and demand that they either delay or stop working on other projects. It is far more appropriate to complain about insufficient resources or insufficient results. I realize this is a bit of a nitpick, but I think its an important one that should have been mentioned earlier in this thread.

-Liang

Ed: It seems to me that we have some common complaints:
- Fix Teh Lags: They are trying. Its complicated, and they're sorry its taking so long. I have to wonder how much of the lag is actually caused by those cowboy coders live injecting broken code in trying to diagnose this stuff on the fly. Laughing
- Fix Bugs/Exploits: They are. 20% of all non-incarna teams dedicate their resources to fixing bugs. Some transparency here would be appreciated but would probably be inappropriate.
- Gimme New Shinies, but not those Shinies: Well. I can completely sympathize with you (many of my own pet peeves lie here)... but I think the argument should end with New Shinies - because we certainly cannot and should not argue for delaying/stopping development of other products.

As I said, I think that there's some middle ground that can be had - either by having some dedicated CSM development bandwidth (a team, or partial team, or whatever) or "bounties" on the CSM issues. Until the CSM acts as a stakeholder - complete with development bandwidth, I think its not a lot more than a (malfunctioning) PR stunt... even if its meant to be more.

Xtover
Suicide Kings
Posted - 2010.07.19 20:31:00 - [1027]
 

Originally by: Orange Faeces
Originally by: Xtover
So, where's the team for game balancing? Or how about one person?


With some minor exceptions, the game is well balanced. Try another troll angle. kthx


There are more titans in game than black ops
Hybrids are horrible
Assault frigs are worthless
Rockets?
Hel?

If you consider that its OK to have 2 classes of ships and 2 weapon systems pointless a troll....wow.

But its OK. Every ship is decent with ACs.....

Kewso
Posted - 2010.07.19 20:32:00 - [1028]
 

Just do the damn community a favor and get rid of this CSM crap, all it does is interupt devs, and screw crap up. Look at what these positions have done to other games, Dark age of camelot had to eliminate their teamleader system, Anarchy Online removed theirs and changed it to just an insider opinion forum instead of how close they used to be similar to daoc and csm. We all know what EQ did with theirs. Every time some system like this comes up it only starts drama, abuse, trolling and keeping devs from their work to babysit these 'youngens'

just go ahead dissolve this failure, get back to work and solve the problems as ya did before this cluster !@#% of fail started.

Alice Celadon
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.07.19 20:36:00 - [1029]
 

CCP: Fire your current PR strategy. It took you a few months to write a blog entitled "We Are Aware of the Problem" and it took you until this thread to expend any effort assuring players that you are actually working on it.

Here is information the EVE player base should have received a full 5 months ago:

-"We've assigned every dev with CS expertise to this problem. It is our top priority. We are hiring as many good CS people as we can in the short term just to address this problem."
-"This problem really sucks. Most of our devs have experienced it firsthand in their gameplay."
-"Internally we've announced $5000 prizes, dedicated parking spots, extra vacation time, and other sweet loot for any information leading to the capture/demise of the lag beast."

Instead of the above, your response has been like this:

"Yea, something is a bit wrong, but EVE is healthier than ever! Don't worry, we have people working on the problem -- it shouldn't affect gameplay very much though! Log onto SISI and that will solve it mmkay? Hey player base, we know something is wrong and we really really love you, but we're not going to say anything that would allow Massively to write a big scary review entitled "EVE has tech problems."

Your REAL problem is that you're treating the EVE player base like most tech companies do. It's effective to blow chafe out of all available orifices when your base is fairly tech illiterate and only spends a few hours a week with your product. Unfortunately, that's not your base. Good luck turning this around even when you do kill the lag monster.

Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.19 20:37:00 - [1030]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Ebisu Kami

Nobody can tell me, that they can not patch together a single team of 3 code-dwellers and 2 testers from that Incarna-alotment and assign them to backlog-issues. It just makes no sense to us and none of the provided answers by Zulu, Explorer, Navigator and Hellmar gave a sufficing reason to that, beyond: "We can't!".



It is inappropriate to complain about resource allocation and demand that they either delay or stop working on other projects. It is far more appropriate to complain about insufficient resources or insufficient results. I realize this is a bit of a nitpick, but I think its an important one that should have been mentioned earlier in this thread.

-Liang


I would agree with this statement. I'm not sure the level of nerd-rage in this thread is appropriate though. I see quite a few threads where people don't seem to get that they are addressing backlog issues.

Fleet lag seems to be CCP's big oil spill at the moment, with other things being minor. Once fleets in 0.0 are massive and smooth again, I'm sure the nerd-rage will quiet down.

Expanding on treaties, faction warfare, rockets, and assault frigates, and dynamically generated nebulae, etc, should be addressed over the next couple expansions without taking away from Tyrannis, Incarna, and Dust. This is what I gathered from reading Zulu's devblog, and CCP's subsequent replies.

I would like to see a list of these issues and their planned release date though. I think quite a few people would stop second-guessing CCP's resource allocation if they're given deadlines. Most of these things (unlike fleet lag) aren't difficult to tweak or add. You can quantify their production release. Fleet lag is like that oil leak though. Smelly, time-consuming, and hard to fix.

the op
Amarr
Rabies Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.19 20:42:00 - [1031]
 

Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow
Interesting point - but you are assuming, that I know the skill sets of their developers and how they are allocated, which I dont.
In the thread where that comment was made, ** CCP ** actually **SAY** that it was a JOKE. You don't actually need to understand anything about anything other than the ability to read, and actually bother to read more of the original thread, and then you wouldn't post on here about putting the web developers on lag fixing duty.

I barely read these forums anymore and I realised it was a joke even before I read the rest of the thread.

Anyway... can CSM please get access to the backlog tools for items THEY had put in? It looks like the Hansoft tools CCP are using (see slide 37 onwards of the 76 slide presentation on CCP's usage of Scrum) has the capability?


Vadimik
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.19 20:50:00 - [1032]
 

To be honest, I think it's a very good idea to actually finish ambulation/WIS/incarna this time, even at the cost of a couple of delays in other areas.

And I don't see any real issues with resource allocation in general either.

(Though it does make me wonder exactly why, among other things, bringing back the old cyno effect takes so long.)

Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.19 21:01:00 - [1033]
 

Originally by: Vadimik
To be honest, I think it's a very good idea to actually finish ambulation/WIS/incarna this time, even at the cost of a couple of delays in other areas.

And I don't see any real issues with resource allocation in general either.

(Though it does make me wonder exactly why, among other things, bringing back the old cyno effect takes so long.)


Why all the fuss over the old cyno effect? It's not a bug that needs fixing, nor would it take someone very long to change it back, but it seems to me that CCP likes the new cyno better - or it fits better. I'm not sure, nor do I really care about the cyno effect. Same goes for shield effects and engine trails.

I do want dynamic nebulae - so long distance travel isn't so boring and I get to see something new with each system :)

I really enjoy the new planets by the way - eventually I'd like to see them all rotating around the sun. That would be ultimate, when Incarna is released - to look out a station window to see the sun rise over a nearby planet.

but these are just wishes that they may - or may not- have time to add. IF they do choose to add these, it won't make the backlog any less achievable though - I think that's what Zulu and Hilmar have been trying to say.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.07.19 21:08:00 - [1034]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 19/07/2010 21:12:51
Originally by: Liang Nuren
It is inappropriate to complain about resource allocation and demand that they either delay or stop working on other projects. It is far more appropriate to complain about insufficient resources or insufficient results. I realize this is a bit of a nitpick, but I think its an important one that should have been mentioned earlier in this thread.

-Liang


Probably you're right. It's just beyond my understanding, why this wasn't done before or at all, because it's so very obvious. I'm all fine with their 20% of time is free to fix %stuff that the team feels like to do%, but not having a team that is dedicated to get through the seemingly immense backlog one issue at a time is just... You know? A massive lack of coordinized effort to get your foundations working as intended.

*Speculation*
Maby they don't even have a proper backlog, which is where the problem may actually come from, but there I am again, guessing into the dark, because CCP is like a mother-hen, sitting on it's info and leaving us/the CSM in the dark, while trying to tell us, that the server is better equipped then ever Rolling Eyes

Oh and just to note it: Someone just linked a PowerPoint Presentation from this years' Game AI Conference, about some pretty nifty AI-system to make "people" behave more like people, when facing crowds, in one of these highly frequented EVE-related forum and there were actually two pics of how Incarna will look like in there, which I haven't seen before (but may have been visible at some presentation at a FanFest ages ago). A shame, that we don't have a context to that PowerPoint-Presentation at all...

Darveses
Fantastulousification Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.19 21:08:00 - [1035]
 

First off, thanks to all the devs and employees posting here in this thread trying to help alleviating the tense situation - it's well appreciated.

As stated before, I think the main problem here isn't what you're actually doing (or not), but how you're communicating (or not) about it. I believe the biggest part of discontent in the community comes from the current lack of results. Lag gets worse and makes large fleetfights a drag at best, torture at worst, and the complete lack of improvement there frustrates people. Especially when coupled with the fact that there haven't been any Incarna cookies fed to us in a long time. Since fanfest 2008 actually, I think?

And no, the new avatar pictures during AT stream don't count, that was a quarter cookie at best. YARRRR!!

Incarna is something many players, maybe even most of them, prioritize very differently than you at CCP do, and I think that partly comes from not knowing what Incarna will be like. A new devblog about progress there may help a lot. Ill just say a starving dog will appreciate a strawberry cookie, even if he likes chocolate cookies more Laughing

Im convinced people will calm down once theyve seen what theyre gonna get with Incarna.

I know CCP is already one of the most "transparent" game developers out there, and I know that we as a community already get much more direct attention from you than other game communities do, but when alls said and done I doubt you guys are doing a bad job over there, and Im convinced that letting us know exactly that (via more devblogs, e.g.) will alleviate the situation greatly.

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2010.07.19 21:08:00 - [1036]
 

Originally by: Jim Luc
I'm not sure the level of nerd-rage in this thread is appropriate though.


Actually, this thread and most of the others like it have been amazingly civil given the topic at hand. If the publisher of any other major MMO announced that the majority of assets were being redirected away from core gameplay issues to expanding non-core aspects of the game and to other titles, the forums surrounding those games would have exploded in flames.

Originally by: Jim Luc
I see quite a few threads where people don't seem to get that they are addressing backlog issues.


For those of us that have been around for years, hearing "We're working on it," starts to wear thin. Dev blogs and forum posts are nice, but without actual results (ie. dead bugs, sploits plugged, improved balance & smoother gameplay), it's just lip service.

Cosmic Rainbow
Posted - 2010.07.19 21:10:00 - [1037]
 

Originally by: the op
Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow
Interesting point - but you are assuming, that I know the skill sets of their developers and how they are allocated, which I dont.
In the thread where that comment was made, ** CCP ** actually **SAY** that it was a JOKE. You don't actually need to understand anything about anything other than the ability to read, and actually bother to read more of the original thread, and then you wouldn't post on here about putting the web developers on lag fixing duty.

I barely read these forums anymore and I realised it was a joke even before I read the rest of the thread.

Anyway... can CSM please get access to the backlog tools for items THEY had put in? It looks like the Hansoft tools CCP are using (see slide 37 onwards of the 76 slide presentation on CCP's usage of Scrum) has the capability?




Firstly: Im glad you have time to read through what at the time was 32 pages of posts, but I dont. I work for a living.

Secondly: The point still remains, whatever fail spin you try to put on it: CCP continues to add new content rather than RESOLVING old issues. Its becoming a chronic problem with the game. Clean up your backyard first before you try to extend the fence out and add more.

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2010.07.19 21:16:00 - [1038]
 

Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Originally by: Rokkit Kween
I'd like to correct someone else from earlier in the thread as well. What we saw of Dust at FF2009 was more than simply a video, we saw it being played live, on stage, by more than one person. The guy on the stage had one controller and he was playing with a whole bunch of people from the Shanghai office who were backstage at the time. We watched Dust being played live on a big screen and I have to say that apart from a few UI elements the game looked pretty complete. I'm guessing that we haven't seen a release yet as its the code that links it to the EVE universe that is the trikckiest to get right, and I hope they do get it right.
That would be me. Do you have any footage of that happening? Never heard of that before and I'd actually prefer to actually have something solid, when thinking about Dust coming soon™ Neutral
Here starting at around 1:06:30.

Ix Forres
Caldari
Righteous Chaps
Posted - 2010.07.19 21:18:00 - [1039]
 

A few of us talked to CCP Atropos about third party developer involvement in the #eve-dev IRC channel earlier in light of this devblog and he let me post it up; it's an interesting read which gives some insight as to how CCP goes about things and a few issues that affect third party developers.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1356060

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.07.19 21:20:00 - [1040]
 

Originally by: Darveses
Incarna is something many players, maybe even most of them, prioritize very differently than you at CCP do, and I think that partly comes from not knowing what Incarna will be like. A new devblog about progress there may help a lot. Ill just say a starving dog will appreciate a strawberry cookie, even if he likes chocolate cookies more Laughing

Im convinced people will calm down once theyve seen what theyre gonna get with Incarna.


I wouldn't count on that, if I were you, since we're beyond that point by quite some time already. Quite a number of people, who are even looking forward to Incarna, do not want Incarna to happen if it costs EVE as dearly, as it seems to do at the moment. Even more people, wonder if Incarna will be ever anything more then just walking in stations, which is completely pointless to the game of EVE and the Universe of EVE, too, but seems likely, if you look in the immediate past of EVE.

Darveses
Fantastulousification Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.19 21:25:00 - [1041]
 

Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Originally by: Darveses
Incarna is something many players, maybe even most of them, prioritize very differently than you at CCP do, and I think that partly comes from not knowing what Incarna will be like. A new devblog about progress there may help a lot. Ill just say a starving dog will appreciate a strawberry cookie, even if he likes chocolate cookies more Laughing

Im convinced people will calm down once theyve seen what theyre gonna get with Incarna.


I wouldn't count on that, if I were you, since we're beyond that point by quite some time already. Quite a number of people, who are even looking forward to Incarna, do not want Incarna to happen if it costs EVE as dearly, as it seems to do at the moment. Even more people, wonder if Incarna will be ever anything more then just walking in stations, which is completely pointless to the game of EVE and the Universe of EVE, too, but seems likely, if you look in the immediate past of EVE.


That may certainly be the case, yes, but I think we've reached a point where we can't get CCP to back down from the 18-month-plan, and at least knowing roughly what to expect of Incarna, and when to expect it, will help. Certainly won't make unhappy customers turn around and go home, back to paying their subs, but it will soothe some minds.

Thalion Withinu
Posted - 2010.07.19 21:32:00 - [1042]
 

Posting in an Epic CCP Fail Cascade Thread

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.07.19 21:34:00 - [1043]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Ebisu Kami
That would be me. Do you have any footage of that happening? Never heard of that before and I'd actually prefer to actually have something solid, when thinking about Dust coming soon™ Neutral
Here starting at around 1:06:30.


Now that's something, thanks a whole lot! Now what has happened since 2009 to today? What's the status on Dust?

Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.19 21:37:00 - [1044]
 

Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow
Originally by: Jim Luc
I'm not sure the level of nerd-rage in this thread is appropriate though.


Actually, this thread and most of the others like it have been amazingly civil given the topic at hand. If the publisher of any other major MMO announced that the majority of assets were being redirected away from core gameplay issues to expanding non-core aspects of the game and to other titles, the forums surrounding those games would have exploded in flames.

Originally by: Jim Luc
I see quite a few threads where people don't seem to get that they are addressing backlog issues.


For those of us that have been around for years, hearing "We're working on it," starts to wear thin. Dev blogs and forum posts are nice, but without actual results (ie. dead bugs, sploits plugged, improved balance & smoother gameplay), it's just lip service.


Thanks - I'm still rather new to the MMO concept, and only playing Eve casually for a little over a year. CCP would be smart to simply list out the issues that have been promised - and say whether or not they still plan on addressing the issue, and if not - why, if so - a schedule for release.

If CCP has promised something - I agree, simply ignoring it would be very very bad. I like what Hilmar said about their dev schedules being different than they used to be, which allows for more iterative tweaks. I think people would be happier if they came out with a complete list, and they stuck to their word. If something is too difficult and they make a judgment that it will deter from other more important development, I think people are reasonable.

Nirrithi Morrigan
Posted - 2010.07.19 21:37:00 - [1045]
 

CCP has clearly lost touch with those that pay there bills

Dr Lebroi
Posted - 2010.07.19 21:39:00 - [1046]
 

Originally by: CCP Hellmar
Wonderful EVE community,

I realize there are many good points raised in this thread which I could comment on but I wanted to help a bit by putting some clarifications and perspective out there quickly.

Feedback like we see here is indeed read by everyone that has anything to do with high level priorities at CCP and it does affect prioritization, it always has. Nowadays it takes longer for us to react, as the code base of EVE has grown and we have a larger team of specialists that work on it.

In prior times we had a smaller team of generalists to work on EVE and thus it was easier to both react quickly and for individuals to speak to a broader set of fields. The problems we are tackling now require more specialized knowledge, as they are deeper and more complex. Our solution to address the downsides of that is "enterprise scrum" which allows gelled teams of specialists to have the agility and domain breath as a generalist have.

We are still in the process of gelling our scrum teams and while that is occurring then people are timid when it comes to replying directly to the EVE community. It doesn't help that the EVE community is full of "tough customers" which I personally have always loved and appropriated, nothing worse than apathy which is certainly not our issue, but as new people come to the forefront then they need time to adjust to the ardent feedback that you tend to give.

I have often noticed people come out and speak to their responsibilities, feel the "hammer coming down" and pull back and be less willing to comment. It takes a lot of "old timers relating to their experiences" for people to open up again.

Regarding LAG
One poster cautioned CCP Zulu about having "same people who introduced the problem" working on addressing the current lag we are experiencing with large fleet fights.

Many of the fundamentals that need to be improved now were laid down by a handful of people a decade ago during my term as CTO 2000 – 2005 (I am currently CEO of CCP as of 2004).

Now we have a team of technologists, software architects, engineers, operation specialists working on the problem. These good people possess knowledge and ability way beyond what I ever had during those initial years of EVE development. It is not to say that the core technology of EVE Online is bad in anyway; however, the world and CCP have learned so much since that we have a much better chance of doing this right a decade later.

So we are indeed getting a very fresh perspective on the problem. It however takes time to catch up to all that has been done prior. Addressing the scalability challenges of a single shard MMO is probably one of the more complicated areas of parallel architecture design. There are some aspects (e.g. session coherency, lock congestion, module stickies) which I hope the team will be able to release in the coming months but these kind of fundamental changes need to be extensively tested before we enable them on Tranquility.



Hi Big Boss, how ya doing?!

Sorry, I didn’t understand much of your post. That’s not your fault, I’m not technically minded, I don’t work in IT or games development, when my PC dies I call the PC guy to come over and fix it. I’m a simple soul who pays a little bit of monthly money to blow stuff up in spaceships. I really like your game and being part of the Eve community is swell.

Thing is, the game has started to look a bit dated, a bit scruffy, lots of things don’t work properly and nobody seems to be fixing them.

I’ve heard that this is because you are developing a new part of Eve called Incarna and that means all your staff are going to be busy for 18 months or so.

I’m happy enough to wait for the bits in the game that I like to be improved with the proviso that this Incarna is going to be kick ass, definitely worth the wait and adds significantly in proportion to the resources and developer time it has removed from the current game.

Waiting 18 months will mean I pay you £216 during that period to play a game that really needs a bit of attention, it’s not ‘unfit for purpose’ but it needs some work.

Will you, in return for my money and patience, dish out some info about what Incarna is and what we’ll be able to do with it and also let us know a timescale for fixing the stuff that is annoying everyone, I accept this will be after you have finished the stuff you are working on now.

Thanks! A simple customer.

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2010.07.19 21:40:00 - [1047]
 

Originally by: Ban Doga
Originally by: CCP Zulu
Lag

Regarding the fight on lag I also have a couple of comments. We currently have everyone skilled and qualified to work on identifying and fixing lag assigned to identifying and fixing lag. However that task is not as straightforward as you'd hope. Assigning more people to it wouldn't speed up the profiling and exploratory work that's been ongoing as that is something that simply requires data gathering and observation over time and doing small iterative tweaks to code behaviour.

There are about fifteen people working on just that right now. Adding more simply would not return any benefit. Those fifteen are not all 100% allocated to this task as this task couldn't take up all their time, rather they have flexibility to work on that rather than their other assignments when the time is right. Please note that there are more people working on lag related tasks, such as the fleet fight in a can project that are not counted as a part of those fifteen.

It is our experience from now over a decade of doing this that you can't schedule brilliance. So many times the right solution to a difficult problem doesn't come when you're working on it, but when you're working on something else. When that happens it is important that you have a quick and smooth path to work in your idea and publish it. It is this environment CCP is very aware of and very committed to providing. We have some of the most brilliant people in the industry working on this, we're confident that you'll start seeing improvements to the current lag issues soon.

I agree to some of this to 100%. Especially the part where you can't force epiphany and creativity.

Giving people flexibility to switch tasks according to mood, time and situation appears to be good too but might introduce a situation where your mind is constantly a little bit distracted because "there are still those other tasks I have been assigned to as well".

It is reassuring that your brilliant people are working on the lag issue, but I'd like to remind you that these are the same people who introduced the problem. You are again confident that we will see some improvements soon.
That is exactly what we were told 5 months ago, yet there seems to be little progress in the mass tests.
Originally by: CCP Atlas, 2010.02.04
The problems we are experiencing post-Dominion are being worked on and they will be fixed soon, adding more space carnage to your battles.
So my question is: What makes you so confident about this now?
Because 5 days after CCP Atlas wrote this then we deployed a massive fix to post-Dominion lag in "TRANQUILITY HOTFIX v.6.21.127381_4" during DT on 9 Feb 2010. It was not the silver bullet to end all lag but it was a big fix for a regression we could trace back to Dominion and this hotfix had a clearly measurable positive impact on fleet fight lag. (This hotfix fixed DB session starvation.) Before this hotfix we had fixed a number of memory leaks and after this hotfix we started investigating the "blackscreening client" issue, a potential fix for which is now being tested in the on-going SiSi mass-tests along with other fleet fight lag fixes. (The potential fix revolves around changing locks in server services.)

OwlManAtt
Gallente
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.07.19 21:43:00 - [1048]
 

Originally by: Ix Forres
A few of us talked to CCP Atropos about third party developer involvement in the #eve-dev IRC channel earlier . . .
So in following with the theme of this thread, a CCP staffer pops in, tells you he can't comment on something because it's not his department, but still tries to make you feel better about it.

Guys, do you understand that this is infuriating? Having you come and tell us that, yes, it's broken and we can't do anything at all about it because our development methodology won't allow for it? Do you, as a company, comprehend that this is what the entire thread is about? Nobody is taking responsibility for any of the **** that has been broken for ages. WE ARE UNHAPPY ABOUT THIS. When the CSM brings this stuff up, you all throw your hands in the air and say "NOT MY DEPARTMENT AND EVERYONE ELSE IS BUSY, SORRY, CAN'T DO ANYTHING AND DUNNO WHEN WE CAN GET AROUND TO IT!"

You're using SCRUM. OK. So if it doesn't work for the API, then take someone, assign them to 3rd party integration stuff - the API and the data exports - and ignore SCRUM for this one special case. Is that going to cause the world to end?

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.07.19 21:46:00 - [1049]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 19/07/2010 21:54:59
Originally by: Darveses
Originally by: Ebisu Kami
I wouldn't count on that, if I were you, since we're beyond that point by quite some time already. Quite a number of people, who are even looking forward to Incarna, do not want Incarna to happen if it costs EVE as dearly, as it seems to do at the moment. Even more people, wonder if Incarna will be ever anything more then just walking in stations, which is completely pointless to the game of EVE and the Universe of EVE, too, but seems likely, if you look in the immediate past of EVE.


That may certainly be the case, yes, but I think we've reached a point where we can't get CCP to back down from the 18-month-plan, and at least knowing roughly what to expect of Incarna, and when to expect it, will help. Certainly won't make unhappy customers turn around and go home, back to paying their subs, but it will soothe some minds.


Possibly true, but it is a situation that shouldn't have happened at all, if they'd have managed their resources properly, when they had them available. Lag and Incarna, as well as Dust now totally occupy all "free" ressources, which would be fine, if not for this massive Backlog, that stalks this game since ages and wouldn't even be half as big, if they'd have actually dealt with it in a serious manner before. Now they can't and risk getting burried underneath it and they said, that they'll have to try to not get squashed by that collapsing pile for another 18 months, after which they'd probably have a look into it. This statement and the underlying thought-concept wasn't taken back as of yet, which is all the more rediculous. Later™, Later™, Later™. Soon enough it could be Too Late™ and none of us really want that to happen, because we love the vision of EVE Forever (no, our ships and characters will not have rubber nipples in that vision... well, some characters maybe but... let's change the theme).

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.19 21:49:00 - [1050]
 

Executive Summary: Addressing the concerns of the current playerbase by visibly implementing priority items in the CSM backlog is smart business; it acts as insurance, and has synergies with improved player-retention efforts.

tl;dr: It will reduce risk, buy extra time for DUST/Incarna/WoD development, and may well make you more money.

tl;dr of the tl;dr (in icelandic): Oft velltir lítil þúfa, þungu hlassi.

Dear Hilmar,

First of all, thank you for taking the time to reply in such an illuminating manner, in particular your comments about lag. However, permit me to direct your attention on the broader issue being raised in this thread.

When you get right down to it, what the players are telling you is "We want more focus on improving the existing features of EVE, as opposed to adding new ones; we are further concerned that there is little or no evidence that CCP is acting upon our concerns, either expressed directly or through the CSM. Finally, we are concerned about EVE's future prospects."

I will not presume to debate with you the merits of CCP's strategic vision as regards projects such as WoD, DUST or Incarna, since I would be arguing from a position of some ignorance. From the outside looking in, I have some concerns about the viability of the DUST/EVE linkage, but quite frankly, I truly hope that I'm wrong, and that all 3 projects will be stunning successes. You and the other CCP founders did something magnificent when you created EVE, and I have stated on numerous occasions that it's the only MMO out there that's worth my time to play. If you can pull it off again, I for one will be very happy.

Rather, I would like to argue that addressing the concerns of the current playerbase by visibly implementing priority items in the CSM backlog is smart business; it acts as insurance, and has synergies with improved player-retention efforts.

Nobody (well, nobody with any sense) has a problem with the fact that profits from EVE are being used to develop other CCP projects like DUST, WoD and Incarna. For the moment, let us ignore the fact that many EVE players have stated that these new projects do not interest them; that is irrelevant to this discussion. Once we pay our subscriptions, it's your money, and you can spend it any way you want (though if I may make a suggestion: my back would appreciate business class seats for CSMs).

(continued in next posting, which in this thread means about 2 pages from now...)


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