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Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.07.19 12:13:00 - [931]
 

Zulu, do you get nervous right before you hit the Post button?

Catari Taga
Centre Of Attention
Middle of Nowhere
Posted - 2010.07.19 12:18:00 - [932]
 

Originally by: Cergorach
There have been complaints about other expansions, because the folks that complained felt that CCP didn't add to 'their' part of EVE. Be that 0.0, mining, manufacturing, research, PvP, PvE, etc.

Yes, but this time it's different, this time noone wants CCP to add to anything, we all want them to fix what's already there.

Lina Thamaris
Caldari
Angry Elks
Posted - 2010.07.19 12:22:00 - [933]
 

Edited by: Lina Thamaris on 19/07/2010 12:22:51
Originally by: Ebisu Kami

Right... So out of the grand total of 300 devs, only 124 are currently working on EVE and out of those about 49 are on loan to EVE, solely for working on Arcana? So this sums up to a superb number of 25% of your devs are actually beeing dedicated to EVE?

Well ok, so answer us one question: When can we expect the backlog- and CSM-raised issues to get get adressed and with how much (wo)man-power? I'm sure most of us here are very interested in the very answer to this simple question.


To me the division of the developers seems absolutely right. In order to improve a game that's already up and running you don't need that many developers at all. Once you've got a nicely working game (which I would say EVE is), you can make changes and improvements big and small with a very small team. Some of you might not believe it, but it's true: I work in the games industry myself and I've seen 6 developers pull off the most incredible things.

Secondly, I think the fact that 70 people are wroking on Incarna is the best news about EVE I've heard for a while. Once Incarna is released, the game gets a whole new dimension, which is far better than any little new feature that can be added to the existing gameplay. Incarna is like a super-expansion, which is far better than small improvements here and there. Think about it: CCP is a company, they need to make money. How do you do that? You get more people to play EVE. Now, what is it that is mission from EVE? Exactly: Identification with your character. Incarna fixes that, and hearing that it's top priority is music to my ears.

I don't understand how people can moan and complain when CCP is actually working on:
- EVE Incarna
- EVE new features
- DUST 515

That's like working on 3 games! Awesome! Very Happy

Edit:
I completely forgot: Server lag is not something you can just "fix" by throwing manpower at it. A few people working on optimizing the servers and the game code suffices, and I'm sure CCP is doing just that.

Empyrean Cartographer
Caldari
Ravens Holdings
Posted - 2010.07.19 12:32:00 - [934]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
We had been using the Unreal engine long before the final contract was finalised. No code has to be re-written or ported.


Wow - you are still here and still responding! Kudos to your staying power and thick skin.

After 10 years of c++ development, five of them in the game industry, I now work as a QA automation manager. I've seen both sides of the fence and know something about what you are going through. You guys are doing a great job on all fronts. Sure, things slip between the cracks, but all in all, EVE is the best game out there. Your commitment shows and is very appreciated.


Thraxon
The Perfect Storm
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2010.07.19 12:45:00 - [935]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Gerard Deneth
No Offence, but one of the first things I learned in the single HR class I took on the way to getting my BBA:Accounting degree was that "claiming tens of defect fixes without being able to cite a single one" is something that quite handily erodes support and belief.
Sorry, I can't link you the defects nor the changelists since they are all in internal systems.


A simple changelog on the website would go a long way in fixing that.

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.07.19 12:47:00 - [936]
 

Edited by: Ban Doga on 19/07/2010 12:48:50
Originally by: Ban Doga

So when players say "we want more development time for EVE" they really mean "we want more development time for the features/contents of the in-space part".



Originally by: Cergorach

By your reasoning Wormholes wasn't developing EVE, as that was not yet in the game at the time. How about PI? It's now part of EVE, but still a lot of folks see it as a subgame that is a pain in the butt.



I don't know which part of "features/contents of the in-space part" you don't understand.

Are WH in space? Yes, usuable for space ships.
Is Incarna in space? No, it's in stations.
Is Dust in space? No, it's on planets.
Is PI in space? No, it's on planets.


Originally by: Cergorach
For me, I do little to no combat PVP. I do encounter it on a regular basis in low sec, I generally evade it (cloaking) or just scare it off (a couple of extra battleships show up). So 0.0 warfare isn't part of my 'EVE' experience, does that mean I think it shouldn't be there or be developed? Of course it should be there, there are folks that enjoy that, I might even enjoy that in the future.

So when you think features you don't use should still be developed why are you so comfortable with letting rockets sit unchanged for so long after CCP already said they need fixing?
Why are you so cool with having Sovereignty basically force people into amassing larger fleets to kill multi-million-HP structures when lag is worse than ever?
Are you glad CCP chose to put more resources on Incarna than improving the UI (maybe instead of getting 7 Incarna teams from other projects, they might have been able to get 6 Incarna and 1 UI teams)?

Do you really don't understand?
It's not about putting too much resources on other stuff, it's about putting not enough resources on the space-ship-game.
The in-space part has 22 developers, Incarna has 70.


Originally by: Cergorach
Folks like you are trying to make 'EVE' in their vision of what 'EVE' should be, but the folks behind CCP had a vision for EVE, one that includes walking on station and walking/combat on planets. They couldn't do that when they started with EVE Online, but now the can and they want to further develop their vision. That that vision doesn't equal your vision, is a whole different matter.


So what are "folks like me" doing? You don't know me, so stop implying you know what I want.
And cut the personal crap, that's only making you look like running out of reasonable arguments.

Originally by: Cergorach
There have been complaints about other expansions, because the folks that complained felt that CCP didn't add to 'their' part of EVE. Be that 0.0, mining, manufacturing, research, PvP, PvE, etc.

Yes, constant shortage of resources is experienced.
As already stated by an CCP employee earlier: they have more tasks than people to work on.

Don't you think adding features/content will add to the amount of maintenance required?
And wouldn't adding required maintenance for a company that's already facing more work than they can keep up with actually make that situation worse?

To me it looks like they keep adding tasks to their backlog faster than they complete them.

Tiger's Spirit
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.19 12:55:00 - [937]
 

Originally by: Rothur Cral
Nice post. Very pleased to see the quantity of development going on in CCP.



Do you believe in the fairy tales yet?
Do you believe what CCP said ?

Just for you a little memory refreshing.

Patch notes for Dominion 1.1, released Thursday 21 January 2010
Killmails will now be correctly generated in some situations where previously they were not. (it is not true killmails still crap)

Build 127382 to 154366 addresses Patch Notes for Tyrannis
Deep space safe spots have been removed. For more info, see the dev blog by CCP Greyscale. (Really ? why can i warp to deepsafes ?)
Oh, and wait a littlebit, the server stopped 12 hours long, because CCP script removed deepspace object.
(which still in the game)
They fixed loggofsky reputely (but logoffsky still working)

Build 86756 to 88517 addresses Patch Notes for Apocrypha 1.2
If a ship cloaks, all active modules that modify attributes, such as ECM, will stop immediately and the icons showing the effect will disappear.

Really ? MWD cloak trick still working, because they removed in the first day this.


Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.07.19 13:04:00 - [938]
 

Edited by: Virtuozzo on 19/07/2010 13:10:08
Originally by: CCP Zulu
Wow, thanks for all the feedback, this is amazing. It's great to see all this passion in the community.



I am glad you see the passion, I hope it is enough of an inspiration to think for a moment about how that is exactly the founding element of the product and the customer perspective alike.
And, how that sheds some very clear light on the differences in perspective AND perception.

I hope it enough to give food for thought, and communicative action.

Originally by: CCP Zulu

It is this environment CCP is very aware of and very committed to providing.



EVE players understand a lot, give a LOT of credit, and have a lot of patience, exactly because of what you observed in this thread: passion. But, that also shows that their priorities are on the experience, it is only the geek factor that makes us gobble up the technicalities :P

Maybe it is more clear now, also because of past threads, that when things start coming down to the experience and faith factors, the technicalities are very quickly considered a distraction simply because they are not the driving force for their perception. Law of diminishing returns springs to mind, and is worth considering hard.

Originally by: CCP Zulu

What has been pointed out is absolutely right. CCP did get the CSM meeting minutes for review before they were published. However they weren't circulated with the meeting attendees, only with the internal CSM management team. The breakdown there is entirely ours, and I never suggested this was the CSM's fault (although fault in this sense is the wrong term as they were simply noting down their perspective which of course is their job) in any way.



I am glad to see you have found the bottleneck in the workflow there to be on the CCP side, since that was pretty obvious. Maybe now you understand why because of this players tend to observe CCP with a lot of care, because these (and similar) things really should not happen. It impacts the faith people have because of the effort and emotion they themselves put into it.

Considering, as a simple example, this workflow breakdown, it is worth thinking for a moment on how that relates to the communicative elements in that, and other processes.

Tbh, I imagine that if you stick your heads together with CSM in a more regular and streamlined manner, quick Skype for quick and productive facetime instead off passthrough mechanisms which NEVER work in any industry, I think this CSM would be of very, very high value. It's clear to at least the players, that this CSM is quite adept and professional, but is also able to change perspectives and do the work for that, for greater understanding ... and results.

I doubt CCP wants to discredit, reinvent, negatively change or impede on the CSM process. Yeah, it does mean that also at a boss level it is a factor, but, that is visibly worth it. One of CCP's company values is after all, transparency.
 
Originally by: CCP Zulu

I'll continue monitoring this thread and will try to clear more things up but I won't be able to answer specific posts.



That is ok, I just hope that we can maintain balance between the technical focus, which is all too easily seen and tempting as a control method (negating the interest factors), and the oh so important part of perspective and perception. That is what communication is for, exchanging perspectives.

Think of it like walking around in Incarna trying on each other's shoes :P That way, it is a lot easier for someone to realise that the other guy or girl has a really hard time walking :-) Never mind running. Just remember, it doesn't help if parties involved do not all try on each other's shoes.

Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.19 13:12:00 - [939]
 

Edited by: Cergorach on 19/07/2010 13:17:11
Originally by: Ban Doga

I don't know which part of "features/contents of the in-space part" you don't understand.

Are WH in space? Yes, usuable for space ships.
Is Incarna in space? No, it's in stations. => Which are in space.
Is Dust514 in space? No, it's on planets. => Which are in space.
Is PI in space? No, it's on planets. => Which are in space.


Yeah, but your putting the requirement that spaceships need to interact with said content to be part of 'EVE'. I on the other hand think that something is part of EVE if it's in the game or interacts with the game (such as Incarna, Dust514, PI, or EVE Gate). See the difference? It's a different perspective. The difference is that you (and others like you) are trying to force your ideas on CCP and the rest of us.

Quote:

So when you think features you don't use should still be developed why are you so comfortable with letting rockets sit unchanged for so long after CCP already said they need fixing?
Why are you so cool with having Sovereignty basically force people into amassing larger fleets to kill multi-million-HP structures when lag is worse than ever?
Are you glad CCP chose to put more resources on Incarna than improving the UI (maybe instead of getting 7 Incarna teams from other projects, they might have been able to get 6 Incarna and 1 UI teams)?


While Windows has some really annoying behavior that should be fixed and isn't, I still use it as an OS because it does enough of what I want it to. The same goes for EVE, it does enough of what I want it to that I can look over the short comings, but that is mainly because I don't interact as much as others with the (perceived) short comings.

If it takes Incarna almost 20% longer to reach completion vs. a possibly improved UI, I go for Incarna. Because I've been working with the current UI for most of the last five years.

Quote:

Do you really don't understand?
It's not about putting too much resources on other stuff, it's about putting not enough resources on the space-ship-game.
The in-space part has 22 developers, Incarna has 70.


I understand your point, that's not the problem. But I'm trying to make the point that not everyone feels as strongly about it as you, some would rather see new things then certain old things fixed.

Not to mention that it isn't our call to make in the first place. We buy game time from CCP, we aren't buying shares at the same time...

Quote:

So what are "folks like me" doing? You don't know me, so stop implying you know what I want.
And cut the personal crap, that's only making you look like running out of reasonable arguments.


Am I using personal 'crap'? If so I'm sorry!

But do understand that I can only see what you typed there, and that is pretty similar to what a bunch of other folks have been spouting. Is it so strange that I chuck you on the same pile?

Quote:

Yes, constant shortage of resources is experienced.
As already stated by an CCP employee earlier: they have more tasks than people to work on.

Don't you think adding features/content will add to the amount of maintenance required?
And wouldn't adding required maintenance for a company that's already facing more work than they can keep up with actually make that situation worse?

To me it looks like they keep adding tasks to their backlog faster than they complete them.


Incarna will add an enormous pile of extra 'crap' on the pile, but at the same time I realize that there is no such thing as 'perfect' software. And for me personally there currently are no showstoppers in EVE.

I suspect that Incarna will have it's own maintenance team, some of the folks will move back to other EVE related stuff and the rest will move on to WoD. I actually expect that even less people will work on EVE after Dust514 and Incarna are completed. My guess would be less then 80 (unless of course something drastic changes).

ReddSky
Posted - 2010.07.19 13:23:00 - [940]
 

Originally by: Louis deGuerre
A brave blog stating your policies clearly for your rabid fanbase.
Unfortunately it has greatly disappointed many of your players (again), including me.
Quantity << Quality.



This ^^ @ CCP Zulu

I commend the clarity you provided on CCP work priorities and resource allocation. This is much appreciated.

With the significant resources available to you (CCP Zulu as senior producer) to drive new content and existing improvements in EvE, I put it to you that you have gotten the balance wrong. While I understand the need for CCP to grow its player-base by creating new content (new features) to draw in new players, existing players need to feel that their genuine concerns about current game issues are being addressed. You (CCP Zulu) have no team assigned to the CSM Issue list. This makes the CSM kinda toothless and pointless. Surely with ~300 developers on staff you could assign a small team of 4 developers to work on implementable issues identified by the CSM. This small resource allocation to current game issue improvements would go a long way towards placating the rabid fanbase.

@ CCP Zulu
I respectfully submit that you have the balance wrong
TL;DR
Huge resource allocation to new content (new features)
Zero resource allocation to CSM Identified Current Issues (except for Lag Issue)

Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.19 13:25:00 - [941]
 

Originally by: Catari Taga

Yes, but this time it's different, this time noone wants CCP to add to anything, we all want them to fix what's already there.

I'm pretty sure that we've established that we all want CCP to fix as many features as possible. The only issue there is, is that some want to fix those issues at the cost of Incarna, Dust514, EVE Gate, and/or WoD. I am not one of those people.

And then there is of course the list of features that need to be fixed. There where a bunch of people that wanted rockets fixed asap, lag, sovereignty, UI, and a whole bunch of other 'bugged' features. Lag already has two dedicated teams, so I don't understand the comment 'fix lag first!', when it's already being worked on. The whole rockets issue, I still don't know if CCP has even classified it as a 'bug' or if it works as intended (according to CCP).

cpu939
Gallente
Volatile Nature
White Noise.
Posted - 2010.07.19 13:30:00 - [942]
 

so zulupark is now zulu, is ccp got to let us change our names, on a side note thanks for taking the time to do the blog.


Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.07.19 13:32:00 - [943]
 

Edited by: Tres Farmer on 19/07/2010 13:48:45
Originally by: Cergorach
Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 19/07/2010 10:38:46
You can't tell me or anyone else, who's complaining here, that a single team working on backlog- and CSM-raised issues is too much to ask or messing up the greater scheme of work. That's nonsense!

I wasn't talking about other bugs, I was specifically talking about the lag issue, which seems to be the biggest issue currently.

Also keep in mind that even a ten men team might easily cost a million euro a year (if I use the cost per workplace for the IT department we used at my last employer). It could be as simple as that they need their knowledgeable personnel on other projects, they have no more room in the budget, or something else you'll never hear an official reply from CCP about.

I'm not saying I think it isn't necessary, what I do think is that some of the demands and ideas in this thread are nothing short of ridiculous. You just can't grab a team from project X to work on Y, without completely screwing up the schedule. And sometimes it's more important to keep to the schedule, then to work op Y. Sure I would love the idea if CCP were to dedicate a single team (5-15 folks) to address all the issues the CSM raises year round, that would be fantastic. But I realize that CCP is a business and not a philanthropic organization, without some serious benefit, they won't do it out of the goodness of their own hearts.

[rant ON]
You just don't get it, eh?

This is about CCP telling us, that ANYTHING the CSM has brought up this time around won't be ABLE to be addressed at all for the next 3 expansions and on top of that we're pointing out that CCP rushes 2 expansions out per year with axed (just the must have) features and the promise to add up on that soon(TM) = 'never'.

So can you please get your head out of your back and start to THINK?

Nobody sane driving this thread here (Virtu, Liang, Batol, EdFrom, Malcanis, ..) wants the stuff you imply:
- total stop of work on Incarna/Dust/whatever
- several scrum teams working on fixing lag/sov/fw/pos/ui/whatever
- ragequit
- CSM to have a say what CCP does with EVE
- the players have a say what CCP does with EVE

Get this in your slow brain mister.
[/rant OFF]

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.19 13:40:00 - [944]
 

I really dont mind CCP adding other types of environments to the EVE universe. In fact I'm all in favour of it. But only as long as the core boat-violencing element is well maintained.

The plain issue here is that CCP has bitten off more than it can chew with developing Dust, Incarna and WoD all at once; they're deeply committed to all three projects, and there's not a whole hell of a lot they can do now that we're asking them to, you know, maintain their core game as well. They really dont have a lot of room to maneuvre.

I'm not trying to excuse them, because they're bloody fools to have ended up in this position, and years of neglecting the boring everyday work on bugfixing and rebalancing in favour of "new shiny" have resulted in customer resentment from a huge backlog of player-frustrating issues coming to a boiling point right at the point where they've rendered themselves the least capable of dealing with it.

The very best action we can reasonably hope for from CCP in the short term are some goodwill gestures, maybe a few bug-fixes & minor balancing changes (FIX ROCKETS FOR THE LOVE OF GOD). We need to accept that now. Regardless of any change of heart they've had recently, that's all we're going to see this year. Lag will be fixed when it's fixed - I'm pretty sure that they're doing what they can with it at the moment, and that they've got the message that we're ****ed off with it and consequently them

What we can hope to see from them is an unambiguous, absolutely honest admission that they realise they made a mistake, they understand what that mistake is, and they've made a commitment to changing their ways, backed up with some of this transparency we hear so much about and see so little of.
They've learned a lot - much of it unpleasant, all of it very important - in the last few days just by actually engaging with us. They need to keep doing that. They need to keep in touch with what their customers want. They need to change their development strategy to things that they can realistically achieve. Ambition is a noble thing in a game developer, but so is focus on product quality and the one depends on the other.

And they need to tell us they're doing these things and keep telling us while they're doing them.

I said they were bloody fools to have landed themselves in this position and I meant it. I hope there were some red faces in the CCP boardroom this weekend and this morning. If we dont see their blushes in the next few days, we'll know that the decision makers have shrugged off all the advice and concern and anger we've spent time and care communicating to them, and we'll know that EVE is on the path to decay and destruction.

Jason1138
Posted - 2010.07.19 13:56:00 - [945]
 

if they would just at least fix rockets we could pretend that maybe they care a little

that one is so easy to fix its just a slap in the face that it hasn't been done really

even if it was fixed and ended up not quite right at least you could tell yourself they're trying

Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.19 14:00:00 - [946]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer

[rant ON]
You just don't get it, eh?

This is about CCP telling us, that ANYTHING the CSM has brought up this time around won't be ABLE to be adressed at all for the next 3 expansions and on top of that we're pointing out that CCP rushes 2 expansions out per year with axed (just the must have) features and the promise to add up on that soon(TM) = 'never'.

So can you please get your head out of your back and start to THINK?

Nobody sane driving this thread here (Virtu, Liang, Batol, EdFrom, Malcanis, ..) wants the stuff you imply:
- total stop of work on Incarna/Dust/whatever
- several scrum teams working on fixing lag/sov/fw/pos/ui/whatever
- ragequit
- CSM to have a say what CCP does with EVE
- the players have a say what CCP does with EVE

Get this in your slow brain mister.
[/rant OFF]

Ah... He at least called me 'mister' ;-)

If your one of the 'reasonable' people, why the rant/name calling?


Am I hindering your ability to air your grievances? No, I am saying that I prefer Incarna getting out faster then CCP fixing the issues raised by the CSM. CSM has fulfilled it's function, it has communicated it's wishes, it still has it's access to the procedures and statistics. CCP just communicated that there won't be any resources to commit to those issues for the next 18 months. CCP seems pretty up front about where the CSM can stick it's issues, did you expect the CSM to have more power then that?

Originally by: Evelopedia

The Scope of the CSM

The purpose of the CSM is to represent society interests to CCP. This requires active engagement with the player community to master EVE issue awareness, understanding, and evaluation in the context of the “greatest good for the greater player base”. The scope of issues is restricted only to EVE, its ongoing development, and limited meta (out-of-game) issues which have direct relevance to the EVE universe. It is important to keep in mind that the CSM will not have formal powers within CCP, they will have a voice inside CCP.


The CSM has voiced their issues, CCP chose to put them on the back burner for at least 18 months.

The CSM is an interesting idea, but the whole 'crap' around it has been becoming worse and worse (with each new election). The tactics used by some of it's members were in the 'things I hate about politics' category. Not to mention that folks have come to perceive that the CSM has more influence then it really does and are piqued when they are confronted with the reality of the CSM.

So you (and a few others) seem to have issues with:
1.) The role of the CSM within CCP.
2.) The current focus on 'new' features instead of old 'bugs'.

I think I made my position on point two pretty clear. I think I have now made my position on point one clear as well.

iP0D
Posted - 2010.07.19 14:03:00 - [947]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

The very best action we can reasonably hope for from CCP in the short term are some goodwill gestures, maybe a few bug-fixes & minor balancing changes (FIX ROCKETS FOR THE LOVE OF GOD). We need to accept that now. Regardless of any change of heart they've had recently, that's all we're going to see this year. Lag will be fixed when it's fixed - I'm pretty sure that they're doing what they can with it at the moment, and that they've got the message that we're ****ed off with it and consequently them



Agreed. Tbh, internally they can consider it "shiny". Tidbits for the gratification. And I am sure we will see some stuff pop up. Personally, I will not be surprised if they are already working on stuff, but just do not have classifications or something like "CSM topic" tagging, or even a priority list.

Originally by: Malcanis

What we can hope to see from them is an unambiguous, absolutely honest admission that they realise they made a mistake, they understand what that mistake is, and they've made a commitment to changing their ways, backed up with some of this transparency we hear so much about and see so little of.
They've learned a lot - much of it unpleasant, all of it very important - in the last few days just by actually engaging with us. They need to keep doing that. They need to keep in touch with what their customers want. They need to change their development strategy to things that they can realistically achieve. Ambition is a noble thing in a game developer, but so is focus on product quality and the one depends on the other.


Eh, like that is going to happen. Be honest, look at this thread. It is THE perfect opportunity to not just dump technical distractions but also show some real signs that they can look at things with eyes of the customer, or are willing to do so. I'm sure they think they do, but .. well ... it's pretty epically visible that they still just look with their own eyes.

Originally by: Malcanis

And they need to tell us they're doing these things and keep telling us while they're doing them.



I doubt they see the point. I mean, players don't do gamedesign, lolcustomers, etc.

Originally by: Malcanis

I said they were bloody fools to have landed themselves in this position and I meant it. I hope there were some red faces in the CCP boardroom this weekend and this morning. If we dont see their blushes in the next few days, we'll know that the decision makers have shrugged off all the advice and concern and anger we've spent time and care communicating to them, and we'll know that EVE is on the path to decay and destruction.


That's pretty visible, to players and industry alike. I think a lot of people on the workfloor realise it as well. But boardroom? It would be a first for that level to even dig into these events for the first time.

Decay and destruction I can't agree with however. Eventually, yes, long term. But short to medium term EVE is strong enough to completely replace its customer base over time. Tbh, that this is underway is visible, will it be a "solution"? No. It is the same as only surrounding yourself with people who tell you what you want to hear, until they run a bridge too far, stumble, and look up. And then it all starts again, but that round much faster and with more hectic. Etcetera.

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.19 14:08:00 - [948]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
I really dont mind CCP adding other types of environments to the EVE universe. In fact I'm all in favour of it. But only as long as the core boat-violencing element is well maintained.


QFT my non-brosef

One of the biggest problems with incarna is that most people I know couldn't give a damn about it. They don't play eve for second life or hello kitty online experience. This is eve which is all about the boat violence. Incarna has 0 boat violence aspects in it as far as I can tell. On the flip side, the things in game which are about the boat violence are being apparently ignored. This means go, gogogogo to forums and RAAAAGE because wtf am I paying these fools for if they're not going to do their job.

iP0D
Posted - 2010.07.19 14:12:00 - [949]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer

Originally by: Cergorach
Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 19/07/2010 10:38:46
You can't tell me or anyone else, who's complaining here, that a single team working on backlog- and CSM-raised issues is too much to ask or messing up the greater scheme of work. That's nonsense!

I wasn't talking about other bugs, I was specifically talking about the lag issue, which seems to be the biggest issue currently.

Also keep in mind that even a ten men team might easily cost a million euro a year (if I use the cost per workplace for the IT department we used at my last employer). It could be as simple as that they need their knowledgeable personnel on other projects, they have no more room in the budget, or something else you'll never hear an official reply from CCP about.

I'm not saying I think it isn't necessary, what I do think is that some of the demands and ideas in this thread are nothing short of ridiculous. You just can't grab a team from project X to work on Y, without completely screwing up the schedule. And sometimes it's more important to keep to the schedule, then to work op Y. Sure I would love the idea if CCP were to dedicate a single team (5-15 folks) to address all the issues the CSM raises year round, that would be fantastic. But I realize that CCP is a business and not a philanthropic organization, without some serious benefit, they won't do it out of the goodness of their own hearts.

[rant ON]
You just don't get it, eh?

This is about CCP telling us, that ANYTHING the CSM has brought up this time around won't be ABLE to be addressed at all for the next 3 expansions and on top of that we're pointing out that CCP rushes 2 expansions out per year with axed (just the must have) features and the promise to add up on that soon(TM) = 'never'.

So can you please get your head out of your back and start to THINK?

Nobody sane driving this thread here (Virtu, Liang, Batol, EdFrom, Malcanis, ..) wants the stuff you imply:
- total stop of work on Incarna/Dust/whatever
- several scrum teams working on fixing lag/sov/fw/pos/ui/whatever
- ragequit
- CSM to have a say what CCP does with EVE
- the players have a say what CCP does with EVE

Get this in your slow brain mister.
[/rant OFF]


Relax Very Happy

He is starting to see some points, that is becoming visible, but right now he would be the perfect starry glazed eye young employee to fit in with both sentiments, workflow and organisational patterns at CCP, which are tbh really what is leading to all of this. He would fit in perfectly from his current viewpoint, but he would either quickly succumb to apathy or crash and burn against a wall in attempts to affect change.

Right now, he's on the detail / technical / logic level. That is where his approach comes from. But, all players go through that phase, it is a point on the MMORPG subscriber addiction curve. That's not a bad thing, since EVE is built in such a way that we can run that curve multiple times.

Also, Tres, I'm banned there so cannot post Crying or Very sad but have a look at the SHC thread, it is quite amazing.

Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises
Babylon Project
Posted - 2010.07.19 14:24:00 - [950]
 

With that many people working on ambulation (or whatever you started calling it now) it had better make me able to use many classic emotes including (but not limited to)

/dance1 through /dance17
/doublefacepalm
/faceroll
/iamfiringmylaser
/canihaveyourstuff
/pirate
/iaccidentallythewhole <input whole>
/dancewithyourmain

Nah all kidding aside, I think most of us understand you're a company in it for the monies. You know you need to get new people playing as well as try and keep the current players playing.
And yes, software development is not one of those areas where an increase in numbers leads to an increase in progress or faster progress.

However, as many people have said before any people is better than no people, and, seriously, there are quite a few things that need doing. For us current players, heck some of us have played for years (and years), new stuff is cute. But bugs are annoying. Lag is annoying. Imbalance is annoying. They're all especially annoying for us old people that fly certain ships a lot, doing certain stuff a lot (in generally big fleets) and getting the same issues again and again gets boring fast.

Some more detailed 'we're currently trying to fix issues X - Z' blogs/mentions/evemailspham would be well appreciated. Also, Liang made some good points, I'd like to see a team dedicated to backlog/promised features and fixes/CSM issues.


Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.07.19 14:28:00 - [951]
 

Edited by: Tres Farmer on 19/07/2010 14:31:09
Originally by: iP0D
Originally by: Tres Farmer
rant

Relax Very Happy

Well, Cergorach made his standpoint at least clear. Fine by me.
I know that at the moment he see's just his pet peeve going strong and is all happy about it.
Let's look back at this in 18 months..
CCP didn't change until now and probably won't change in how they can deliver things.. I mean.. let's be realistic.

First time we heard about WiS there was all kinds of stuff that should be there.. this already got axed (no hangar for example).
As with all of us who are here for a while and got our pet peeves we got used to this.. I'm sure the pattern won't change, so anyone hoping for Incarna to be more than staying in a room with others, doing emotes, dressing up and some fancy games will be in for an disappointment.
I even bet there won't be diets for your char to make him fat/skinny as envisioned first Cool - same as with PI and polution/population control (=later'TM')

CCP Hellmar

Posted - 2010.07.19 14:57:00 - [952]
 

Wonderful EVE community,

I realize there are many good points raised in this thread which I could comment on but I wanted to help a bit by putting some clarifications and perspective out there quickly.

Feedback like we see here is indeed read by everyone that has anything to do with high level priorities at CCP and it does affect prioritization, it always has. Nowadays it takes longer for us to react, as the code base of EVE has grown and we have a larger team of specialists that work on it.

In prior times we had a smaller team of generalists to work on EVE and thus it was easier to both react quickly and for individuals to speak to a broader set of fields. The problems we are tackling now require more specialized knowledge, as they are deeper and more complex. Our solution to address the downsides of that is "enterprise scrum" which allows gelled teams of specialists to have the agility and domain breath as a generalist have.

We are still in the process of gelling our scrum teams and while that is occurring then people are timid when it comes to replying directly to the EVE community. It doesn't help that the EVE community is full of "tough customers" which I personally have always loved and appropriated, nothing worse than apathy which is certainly not our issue, but as new people come to the forefront then they need time to adjust to the ardent feedback that you tend to give.

I have often noticed people come out and speak to their responsibilities, feel the "hammer coming down" and pull back and be less willing to comment. It takes a lot of "old timers relating to their experiences" for people to open up again.

Regarding LAG
One poster cautioned CCP Zulu about having "same people who introduced the problem" working on addressing the current lag we are experiencing with large fleet fights.

Many of the fundamentals that need to be improved now were laid down by a handful of people a decade ago during my term as CTO 2000 – 2005 (I am currently CEO of CCP as of 2004).

Now we have a team of technologists, software architects, engineers, operation specialists working on the problem. These good people possess knowledge and ability way beyond what I ever had during those initial years of EVE development. It is not to say that the core technology of EVE Online is bad in anyway; however, the world and CCP have learned so much since that we have a much better chance of doing this right a decade later.

So we are indeed getting a very fresh perspective on the problem. It however takes time to catch up to all that has been done prior. Addressing the scalability challenges of a single shard MMO is probably one of the more complicated areas of parallel architecture design. There are some aspects (e.g. session coherency, lock congestion, module stickies) which I hope the team will be able to release in the coming months but these kind of fundamental changes need to be extensively tested before we enable them on Tranquility.

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:03:00 - [953]
 

Edited by: Virtuozzo on 19/07/2010 16:16:50

Originally by: CCP Hellmar

Wonderful EVE community,

I realize there are many good points raised in this thread which I could comment on but I wanted to help a bit by putting some clarifications and perspective out there quickly.

...

So we are indeed getting a very fresh perspective on the problem.



We really and honestly appreciate the response. We do hope however that there is a clear realisation on exactly that point of perspective. And the actual problem from the customer and product immersion viewpoint. You yourself once said "perception is reality", after all.

The current situation really has nothing to do with technicalities from the experience and general customer viewpoint. We appreciate the insight, but, keep in mind that CCP already is a pretty open book, in all aspects. Yes, there are technical and organisational challenges, but at the heart of the current debate it is not about that. Sure, everybody wants their "fix", but ultimately we simply want to believe.

And the message format, as well as the message traffic, is simply "off" for that. Please do not take this as disrespect, but as a simple observation. Enterprise development is not easy, I'm quite aware of that, especially when basing on being fearless, standing united, pursuing excellence and transparancy.

As pointed out earlier, EVE (nor is any product CCP makes) is not a can of soup, and that fundamentally changes the enterprise development paths for such a type of product.

You're not selling us a game. You're building and selling an alternate reality. You're selling us another life (sure, some argue it's a job, but hey :P). Your driving force is that immersion, that experience.

Technicalities, are but one aspect of that. Excellence in the technology is to the customer not the primary variable, but an instrument. The emotional link we make, that is the primary variable.
Yes, sometimes that can be a catch22, but, as you know, one step at a time, eyes on both the road and the horizon.

Ultimately, when push comes to shove, the perspective point is the most important point in all of this. I would have loved some comments on that, instead of the "loltechnobabble" :P
As some player groups say, CCP has need for a Master of Vision and Translation.

Maybe, it is an idea for you to seek some facetime with the CSM, they have already demonstrated to be very capable in switching perspectives in order to achieve workflow, process and results, based on understanding as well as priorities and interests. If anything, these events have shown that communication is off, at minimum in perception, but perception is what defines and rules an immersive product.

Give the CSM a proper chance, seek out the immersion in communication, get some heads together for half an hour on Skype, communication really can deal with any challenge. This is not impeding on workflow or processes, it is reinforcing them. One step at a time anything can move forward.

Right now, the state of affairs is still dancing around the elephant in the middle of the room. The goal is, to make the elephant dance.

<3

Originally by: CCP Hellmar

It doesn't help that the EVE community is full of "tough customers" which I personally have always loved and appropriated, nothing worse than apathy which is certainly not our issue, but as new people come to the forefront then they need time to adjust to the ardent feedback that you tend to give.


That is understood, if you look carefully, you can see a high degree of self correcting behaviour. Once again, players pushing events and trends, so to speak. But, a big part in this is preparation in communication, and keep in mind, EVE is a cold and dark place, embraced by players. If people cross the line, it is NOT a bad thing to set them straight, just like happened in early days. Even in game, my god y'all once roasted us in Concord ships, remember? Very Happy


Cosmic Rainbow
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:09:00 - [954]
 

I do appreciate the information provide Hellmar and Zulu - it is helpful to understand what is being worked on and what the resource allocation is. With that being said however, I do (as a multiple subscription customer) have some feedback which I hope in the 32 pages gets heard very clearly.

From reading the forums almost daily there is one resounding message that keeps coming across to me:

"CCP - Please fix the issues you have and balance the numerous problems BEFORE adding more conent"

Im a fan of Incarna, Ive been waiting for a while for it, however, I agree with the above statement MORE.

Its wonderful to see you keep adding content, but you need to clean up your backyard first before forging new territory. There are a host of items that we are very concerned about as a player base.

While I applaud Zulu's candor, the following statement concerns me greatly (and sorry Zulu for putting you on the hook for this one)




"EVE Gate

(1 team, approximately 10 developers)

We have one team (at this point) assigned to EVE Gate development and iteration, and that won‘t change for the foreseeable future. Note that this team is a dedicated Web development team. I had planned on using them to fix fleet lag but was talked out of it."



EVE gate is nice. I use it, but its not nearly as important as fleet lag.

You have it up and running. Yes there are a couple of minor bugs in it, but I STRONGLY urge you to re-consider what you are proposing above. You are going to alienate a very important percentage of your player base ("the core of the core" as it were with multiple accounts each) if you continue investing resources in areas of the game that are "new features" or "new content" prior to fixing something as critical as the fleet lag issue.

As a note: I dont even live in 0.0 anymore, and I still feel this is a very critical problem for you as a company. The other issues are balancing problems (rockets, AF's, CS's, and Gallente in general).

The above issues represent the core frustration with the game at present, and you need to re-direct your resources to tackle those issues ASAP, otherwise you are going to p*ss away your player base.

Drifnir
Mnemonic Enterprises
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:10:00 - [955]
 

Thanks for the feedback, Zulu, Hellmar, Explorer in particular over the weekend to boot, Soundwave and the ones i've forgotten.

This, THIS, is the stuff we need...passionate players like us need as much info about what is going on behind the scenes of our beloved game. Do we overreact, scream and yell like 6-year olds? hell yeah. Do we expect perfection yesterday? yup, no doubt. We set the bar exceedingly high, and CCP falls short at times. We've been promised a lot of stuff over the years, some have been delivered, some have been forgotten/reprioritized/soonTM'ed etc. and causes a lot of nerdrage. And nerdrage = forum warriors.

So, talk to us, even if we're impetuous 'tards at times, tell us what's going on...and please, don't make a promise you can't deliver on. Oh and, screw deadlines, make good expansions and release them whenever the hell you feel like. I've got patience for good features, i've no patience for lagging out nor PI in it's current clickety-clickety-clickety form.

Also, wormholes? Best move you guys ever made, and the main reason i'm still playing.

Have a nice day


Pherusa Plumosa
Minmatar
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:11:00 - [956]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu

Incarna

Most of the Incarna teams however (especially the seven that are on loan to EVE) are extremely specialized in either graphics programming or art creation. They could, in other words, not contribute a whole lot to anything else than those specific fields.


"ohlook. our hands are tied, ppl only do graphics, they can't fix Eve."

What are you going to do with your Incarna-Graphics-Team after Incarna? Fire them, spend the money to hire some Devs to fix Eve? No. Everybody and his mother knows, Incarna is just the test-balloon for World of Dorkness, the next project we are going to finanace with our subscription money.

How stupid do you think your playerbase is? Graphics programmers don't fall off trees. Your management decided to hire them. CCP-heads decided to put Eve on halt (people don't consider Dust or Incarna as part of Eve...) and spend resources on their new projects. It is not a matter of artists not being able to code stuff.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:14:00 - [957]
 

Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow





"EVE Gate

(1 team, approximately 10 developers)

We have one team (at this point) assigned to EVE Gate development and iteration, and that won‘t change for the foreseeable future. Note that this team is a dedicated Web development team. I had planned on using them to fix fleet lag but was talked out of it."



EVE gate is nice. I use it, but its not nearly as important as fleet lag.



This was a joke.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:17:00 - [958]
 

Originally by: Virtuozzo
Give them a chance, get some heads together for half an hour on Skype, communication really can deal with any challenge.


^^

Very good to see CCP top brass presence here. ♥ I think most of us players understand and sympathize that EVE is a serious technical challenge...but much of the disillusionment and unhappiness expressed in this thread is more to do with the prioritization of things. There's not been a lot of information offered from CCP as to WHY the prioritization is what it is. Nor have we been given any information about the state of development for the big efforts that are consuming so many resources. Perhaps offering some insights along those lines would increase understanding, help manage expectations, and generate some more patience among customers.


Jason1138
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:21:00 - [959]
 

i appreciate this latest response from CCP but AGAIN, it is purely on technical issues


what about things that you have full control over? rockets, not to sound like a broken record

FW

Bounty Hunting

Cosmos


even if lag is some technical thing that's being fixed as fast as we can so don't worry, etc, you guys are totally blowing off the actual game in favor of chasing some new game

you've got guys writing all this fan fiction crap, a new one every week, and you don't have 1 guy who can re-write the caldari cosmos mission descriptions so that they actually make sense?

I will give you that there are serious problems that are just not addressable now, i think that any reasonable person would. I will give you that lag is something that you can only combat, and never conquer. I will give you that the millions of socket closed errors are something you're working on as fast as possible and the fact that it is taking forever is not intentional

but for some of this other stuff to just be totally ignored, month after month, year after year, is inexcusable

if you can't or won't fix rockets at least give all the ships with rocket bonuses auto cannon bonuses or something. as it is you've got probably 6 frigs that are completely un-bonused because you guys can't be bothered to fix rockets. just do SOMETHING with that situation and you'll essentially give us 6 new ships to play with

you'd get a whole mini-expansion out of just fixing rockets. Amarr pilots would get 3 ships out of it. so why not do it?

Did the mob or yakuza tell you to never fix them? Has the EU banned fixing them? Was the code for them collateral for all the bad loans that the Icelandic banks made? is the craptacular nature of rockets all that allows Wormholes to continue to operate?

what's the story on why you can't at least do something about this one little tiny thing?

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2010.07.19 15:21:00 - [960]
 

Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow
.. the following statement concerns me greatly (and sorry Zulu for putting you on the hook for this one)




"EVE Gate

(1 team, approximately 10 developers)

We have one team (at this point) assigned to EVE Gate development and iteration, and that won‘t change for the foreseeable future. Note that this team is a dedicated Web development team. I had planned on using them to fix fleet lag but was talked out of it."



EVE gate is nice. I use it, but its not nearly as important as fleet lag.




For the umpteenth time....

The team working on EVE Gate are Web Developers, WEB DEVELOPERS - (you know HTML code and all that stuff?) They would be about as useful working on fleet lag as an assembled group of Mongolian Yaks.

In short this team has no skill set to 'fix lag'. CCP Zulupark was making teh funnies he could just have easily written:

We have one team (at this point) assigned to cleaning the offices, and that won‘t change for the foreseeable future. Note that this team is a dedicated cleaning team. [b]I had planned on using them to fix fleet lag but was talked out of it.

Geddit? No? I give up.

C.



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