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Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.07.19 08:34:00 - [901]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu

Lag

Regarding the fight on lag I also have a couple of comments. We currently have everyone skilled and qualified to work on identifying and fixing lag assigned to identifying and fixing lag. However that task is not as straightforward as you'd hope. Assigning more people to it wouldn't speed up the profiling and exploratory work that's been ongoing as that is something that simply requires data gathering and observation over time and doing small iterative tweaks to code behaviour.



There are about fifteen people working on just that right now. Adding more simply would not return any benefit. Those fifteen are not all 100% allocated to this task as this task couldn't take up all their time, rather they have flexibility to work on that rather than their other assignments when the time is right. Please note that there are more people working on lag related tasks, such as the fleet fight in a can project that are not counted as a part of those fifteen.

It is our experience from now over a decade of doing this that you can't schedule brilliance. So many times the right solution to a difficult problem doesn't come when you're working on it, but when you're working on something else. When that happens it is important that you have a quick and smooth path to work in your idea and publish it. It is this environment CCP is very aware of and very committed to providing. We have some of the most brilliant people in the industry working on this, we're confident that you'll start seeing improvements to the current lag issues soon.



I agree to some of this to 100%. Especially the part where you can't force epiphany and creativity.

Giving people flexibility to switch tasks according to mood, time and situation appears to be good too but might introduce a situation where your mind is constantly a little bit distracted because "there are still those other tasks I have been assigned to as well".


It is reassuring that your brilliant people are working on the lag issue, but I'd like to remind you that these are the same people who introduced the problem.
You are again confident that we will see some improvements soon.
That is exactly what we were told 5 months ago, yet there seems to be little progress in the mass tests.
Originally by: CCP Atlas, 2010.02.04
The problems we are experiencing post-Dominion are being worked on and they will be fixed soon, adding more space carnage to your battles.

So my question is: What makes you so confident about this now?

Your small iterative tweaks to the code behaviour are consistently described as "we'd like to try this - not making any promises since this could make it even worse, who knows" up to the point where the test server guys say "we will leave a broken release on SISI for as long as we want - who knows there might be a hidden cure-all for lag in there"
Once someone told me "Tuning and bug fixing are logical processes. You don't go in there, change some things and see how it goes. You find out what is causing the observable problem(s) and then you find out how it is causing this. Then and only then you go in and change it".
That does not seem to describe what you are doing for the mass tests on SISI.


And there is some other point you "conveniently" forgot in your post.
Throwing more people on one problem might not fix it faster.
But throwing more people on a lot of problems might fix more.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2010.07.19 08:34:00 - [902]
 

Edited by: Cailais on 19/07/2010 08:34:07
Originally by: Omal Oma


In my humble opinion... Pull at least 1 team off Incarna and another off Dust with the sole purpose of working on the CSM backlog.




Its constantly being pointed out - manpower numbers does not equal proficiency or efficiency.

C.

Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.19 08:35:00 - [903]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

This is what always scares me about reading CCP replies to whine threads. A lot of the time you post sensible, useful responses to common complaints. But then there's always one post that manages to miss the point so spectacularly that my jaw just drops, and it's usually in the form of finding the single dumbest ass-kisser in the thread and quoting them approvingly.

I get that you won't generally like people who seem to spend all their waking hours *****ing at you. Nobody would. Of course you prefer the folks who share your viewpoint, and it's simple human nature to be more willing to overlook stupidity in friends than in foes. But seriously, you're talking about a guy who has been making a fool of himself for the last 20 pages, by saying that fleet lag is currently too high a priority, that CCP should be happy to get rid of customers who complain, and that balance issues don't matter. I don't agree with more than maybe half of what Marko said, and some of Cerg's complaints make sense, but seriously, if you want us to respect what you're saying, do not quote this guy approvingly. It makes us wonder about your sanity.


I also don't find it smart to quote my post like that, CCP personnel should have left explaining of the realities of the situation to non-CCP personnel, that way they would catch less flak and the realities would still be out here.

Your point would have come across a whole lot more credible without the name calling. I know it's very easy to do in anonymous environment, emotions run high, but would you have made the comments in the same way if you were in my physical presence?

As for ass-kissing, I don't do that, I call them as I see it. That a few folks that pay a few bucks, for a virtual spaceship game a month, suddenly think that they should be treated like 'kings' by CCP is ridiculous. CCP gives out more information about internal workings of the company and game development then any other company I know of, the only thing that this seems to achieve is that every time they post something (anything) there always pop-up folks that complain. That's the nature of customers when you give them a public forum to communicate with others and with you (the company). That doesn't mean that folks that scream the loudest should be listened to. In most stores folks that make annoyance of themselves are removed from the premise by security or the police, and if possible they are barred entry when they next want to shop there. The kind of replies and insults I've seen in this thread directed not at a faceless company, but against employees, is insane. That CCP hasn't used the ban hammer on these individuals is a small miracle.

I would like to add that I haven't said that fleet lag currently has to high of a priority, I have said that only a relative small part of the account base any hindrance of fleet lag. Folks have stated that 0.0 warfare is the lifeblood of EVE, I disagreed. I pointed out that there are two dedicated teams working on the lag problem, and that using more would be counter productive. I've noted that fleet lag doesn't impact me at all, so I find it a lesser problem then others who do suffer from it, that doesn't mean I think it shouldn't be fixed, eventually...

If you find EVE, the developers, CCP so offensive. Cancel your accounts, that is the ONLY thing a company tends to listen to, the bottom line. And I'm not talking about a few folks that emo-rage and quit. I'm talking about whole 0.0 Alliances. Not to mention, remove high-low sec characters and accounts you own, that way CCP and we will actually see how many players (instead of accounts/characters) are actually based in 0.0. And then not for a single month, but for six months, so we'll actually see it show up in the QEN Q3-Q4 graphs.

CCP is a business and most of you are only looking at the issue from an individual players perspective, more specifically, your perspective.

Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.07.19 08:39:00 - [904]
 

Edited by: Camios on 19/07/2010 08:39:31
Premise: this is a very good DevBlog.
I think that no other softco is going to give as much as this information on their internal processes, while they should act as CCP does.

Obviously, CCP cares about their community, and shows it giving clear informations on what they are working on and how much resources are used in every aspect of their work.

Personally, I would like more resources on the core aspect of EVE, the ones that I learned to love. Many of us cited FW, I would cite sovereignty warfare: do you understand that Lag will never be defeated without a complicated game design revision in Sov Warfare?

An eventual sarcastic note:
I bet what is going to happen, many people will do as I did: after dominion, null sec warfare became a lagfest, and I left THAT Eve, for 0.0 Npc.
In my opinion many people will become tired of EVE and will leave it. And start playing another game.
What an irony if that game is Incarna.







Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.07.19 08:53:00 - [905]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu
Wow, thanks for all the feedback, this is amazing. It's great to see all this passion in the community.

I think "considerable anger" would be a better choice of wording than "passion". People really are angry, and many see, rightly or wrongly, themselves being manipulated. I have never seen as much anger in my two years as now after people read Nathan Richardsson's quote in the CSM minutes. To many of us, this confirmed our worst fears that CCP is going down the same road as all the other failed MMOs before it.

I think I am not alone in requesting an official CCP statement as to why CCP is attempting the changes in face of valid player concerns that these might well be the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.
Originally by: CCP Zulu

....
CSM meeting minutes

What has been pointed out is absolutely right. CCP did get the CSM meeting minutes for review before they were published. However they weren't circulated with the meeting attendees, only with the internal CSM management team. The breakdown there is entirely ours, and I never suggested this was the CSM's fault (although fault in this sense is the wrong term as they were simply noting down their perspective which of course is their job) in any way.
...
I don't know if you realise just how farcical this makes the CSM look and I think they would be perfectly justified in quitting the CSM seats and taking the matter to the press, to be quite honest.

To lay it out for those who can't spot the obvious:
There are two possible obvious conclusions to your statement.
1. One is that CCP was not particularly interested in the CSM's (and by extension the players') opinion and concerns.
2. The other is that CCP is inept.

Those statements do not exclude one another.

Personally, I got the impression that CCP have for a long time been all but ignoring player concerns and complaints, and have only begrudgingly responded to such when the clamouring on forum threadnoughts became massively angry (the projectile thread in Ideas and Proposals last year, the anger at the Mom/supercarrier mess, the Nozh Naglfar/Target Painter debacle).

It seemed as if CCP were so convinced of their own "vision" (and those quotes should spell out what many think of that vision) that they were prepared to put their bread and butter project into maintenance mode for the most part whilst pursuing that goal. The CCP response to the huge Assembly Hall threadnought on Excellence indicates the gap between CCP's view of their product and their customers' view of such.

CCP's response to the player reaction to the CSM minutes does seem to indicate that CCP only woke up to their customers due to the anger that that caused. Your initial post on this matter seemed to most of us to be nothing more than a somewhat poor attempt at damage control.

Sadly, very, very sadly, I don't think CCP is going to learn anything from this apart from either clamping down on future CSMs or managing your PR better in future. I still think you are taking a company breaking risk with Dust and that you could have made far more with an Eve iPhone/iPad tie-in for far less effort and risk.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.07.19 09:12:00 - [906]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 19/07/2010 12:54:00
Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: Omal Oma


In my humble opinion... Pull at least 1 team off Incarna and another off Dust with the sole purpose of working on the CSM backlog.




Its constantly being pointed out - manpower numbers does not equal proficiency or efficiency.

C.



Yet 1 team > 0 teams. Yet 7 people > 0 people. Seriously, WTF?!

Originally by: "CCP Zulu"
Loads of suitcasing


Right... So out of the grand total of 300 devs, only 124 are currently working on EVE and out of those about 49 are on loan to EVE, solely for working on Incarna? So this sums up to a superb number of 25% of your devs are actually beeing dedicated to EVE?

Well ok, so answer us one question: When can we expect the backlog- and CSM-raised issues to get get adressed and with how much (wo)man-power? I'm sure most of us here are very interested in the very answer to this simple question.

Edit: Horrible typo.

PC l0adletter
Posted - 2010.07.19 09:23:00 - [907]
 

Originally by: Cailais
Edited by: Cailais on 19/07/2010 08:34:07
Originally by: Omal Oma


In my humble opinion... Pull at least 1 team off Incarna and another off Dust with the sole purpose of working on the CSM backlog.




Its constantly being pointed out - manpower numbers does not equal proficiency or efficiency.

C.



Is there a strictly linear relationship? Obviously not.

But if there weren't any correlation, why would they take 200 of the devs who made Apocrypha and put them on other games? Do you think that maybe they thought vampires of xbox would develop faster than if they only put 50 on them?

Please don't be fatuous. Further, don't forget to include an apostrophe in the word it's when you mean "it is."

Marko Riva
Posted - 2010.07.19 09:44:00 - [908]
 

- CSM minutes and Zulu's first explanation show (paraphrased) "nothing much can be done in the near future, we're working on other stuff".

- Public outcry happens, like a lot

- CCP responds with "nono, we're actually working on things, don't you worry".


So which is it and when are we going to see results. See, we're not interested in talk and words at this moment (although some immediately fell for it once Zulu posted his "there there, all is fine"), we want results! Tangible, actual results.


Lag is crap
SOV is a steaming pile of crap
there's features that still haven't been taken care of (years old at times)
gief proper GFX
FW needs work
Angel ships and AF need work


SHOW US SOMETHING, like I dunno, show us some artwork (preferably ingame, regardless of how rudimentary it is) of some improved cyno GFX or any other FX that's replacing the stupid and uneventful circular crap.

Not words, results.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2010.07.19 09:57:00 - [909]
 

Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 19/07/2010 09:28:36
Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: Omal Oma


In my humble opinion... Pull at least 1 team off Incarna and another off Dust with the sole purpose of working on the CSM backlog.




Its constantly being pointed out - manpower numbers does not equal proficiency or efficiency.

C.



Yet 1 team > 0 teams. Yet 7 people > 0 people. Seriously, WTF?!




Would a team of infantry soldiers be any good flying a MiG21? Or a team of artists be useful in developing FW mechanics?

C.


Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2010.07.19 10:03:00 - [910]
 

Originally by: PC l0adletter
Originally by: Cailais
Edited by: Cailais on 19/07/2010 08:34:07
Originally by: Omal Oma


In my humble opinion... Pull at least 1 team off Incarna and another off Dust with the sole purpose of working on the CSM backlog.




Its constantly being pointed out - manpower numbers does not equal proficiency or efficiency.

C.



Is there a strictly linear relationship? Obviously not.

But if there weren't any correlation, why would they take 200 of the devs who made Apocrypha and put them on to other games? Do you think that maybe they thought that vampires of xbox would develop faster than if they only put 50 on it?

Please don't be fatuous. Further, don't forget to include an apostrophe in the word "it's" when you mean "it is."


We can play my grammar beats your grammar all day if you like?

CCP want to make other titles. They're a gaming company - who make games, but right now they have just one title to show for it. Ok it's a good title but you know they probably want to expand a little. What do you expect, CCP to work on EVE and only EVE for all eternity?

C.


Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.07.19 10:04:00 - [911]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 19/07/2010 10:04:24
Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Yet 1 team > 0 teams. Yet 7 people > 0 people. Seriously, WTF?!




Would a team of infantry soldiers be any good flying a MiG21? Or a team of artists be useful in developing FW mechanics?

C.




What kind of silly arguement is that? I didn't say anything about assigning artworkers on a codebased problem or vice-versa!

Nvee
Posted - 2010.07.19 10:13:00 - [912]
 

This has nothing to do with the vision of the game, or kids complaining "bugs" need to be fixed. 6 months ago, ccp admitted the game was broken due to the new code or old code or whatever.

it has not been fixed yet! that is the problem. 2-3 weeks is enough for the company to have a go at working out what the problem is... at 6 months into the problem, you admit defeat call an emergency staff meeting and say, everyone drops what they are doing and we fix these problems.


Slaves built the pyramids... blacks built america... sometimes you need brute strength and man power to solve a problem.

Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.19 10:30:00 - [913]
 

Originally by: PC l0adletter

Is there a strictly linear relationship? Obviously not.

But if there weren't any correlation, why would they take 200 of the devs who made Apocrypha and put them on other games? Do you think that maybe they thought vampires of xbox would develop faster than if they only put 50 on them?

Please don't be fatuous. Further, don't forget to include an apostrophe in the word it's when you mean "it is."

It's an issue of work area and the ability to create parallel workplaces. If your building a sky sc****r (Apocrypha) you'll be able to fit in a lot of workers, if your renovating a small house (lag) you can only fit in a small amount of workers.

They already split up the teams into one developing a testing setup and the other concentrating on actual lag. In a team of 15 there are 105 communication paths, in a team of 200 there are 19900 communication paths. The team became 13.3 times bigger, the amount of communication became ~190 times bigger. In the end it's a cost benefit analysis, and as CCP is actually in charge of spending the money/resources, they calculated that this would be the most beneficiary for them.

I think the best you could hope for is that CCP added a dedicated team to changing sov (as far as I understand the issue) and thus fighting lag in that way. But CCP has indicated that they don't have more resources available, so I don't see that happening unless something changes drastically. And to be honest, the screaming and shouting isn't the thing that would make that drastical change happen.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.07.19 10:38:00 - [914]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 19/07/2010 10:38:46
Originally by: Cergorach
It's an issue of work area and the ability to create parallel workplaces. If your building a sky sc****r (Apocrypha) you'll be able to fit in a lot of workers, if your renovating a small house (lag) you can only fit in a small amount of workers.


You can't tell me or anyone else, who's complaining here, that a single team working on backlog- and CSM-raised issues is too much to ask or messing up the greater scheme of work. That's nonsense!

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2010.07.19 10:44:00 - [915]
 

A brave blog stating your policies clearly for your rabid fanbase.
Unfortunately it has greatly disappointed many of your players (again), including me.
Quantity << Quality.




Morphisat
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2010.07.19 10:48:00 - [916]
 

Originally by: Cailais

CCP want to make other titles. They're a gaming company - who make games, but right now they have just one title to show for it. Ok it's a good title but you know they probably want to expand a little. What do you expect, CCP to work on EVE and only EVE for all eternity?



Why does it have to be one or the other ? Just a somewhat more balanced approach than what's on the table now, would be received very well by the Eve playerbase.


PC l0adletter
Posted - 2010.07.19 10:56:00 - [917]
 

Originally by: Cergorach
Originally by: PC l0adletter

Is there a strictly linear relationship? Obviously not.

But if there weren't any correlation, why would they take 200 of the devs who made Apocrypha and put them on other games? Do you think that maybe they thought vampires of xbox would develop faster than if they only put 50 on them?

Please don't be fatuous. Further, don't forget to include an apostrophe in the word it's when you mean "it is."

It's an issue of work area and the ability to create parallel workplaces. If your building a sky sc****r (Apocrypha) you'll be able to fit in a lot of workers, if your renovating a small house (lag) you can only fit in a small amount of workers.

They already split up the teams into one developing a testing setup and the other concentrating on actual lag. In a team of 15 there are 105 communication paths, in a team of 200 there are 19900 communication paths. The team became 13.3 times bigger, the amount of communication became ~190 times bigger. In the end it's a cost benefit analysis, and as CCP is actually in charge of spending the money/resources, they calculated that this would be the most beneficiary for them.

I think the best you could hope for is that CCP added a dedicated team to changing sov (as far as I understand the issue) and thus fighting lag in that way. But CCP has indicated that they don't have more resources available, so I don't see that happening unless something changes drastically. And to be honest, the screaming and shouting isn't the thing that would make that drastical change happen.


Yes, so much screaming and shouting with much drasticality. Count all our CAPSLOCKAGE, ***ed out profanity, and !!!!!!11elevens.

You're right that the owners of CCP calculated that gutting development on their existing revenue stream would be a good way to fund development of new ones. Most software developers would just sign a deal with a publisher, get an advance, and hire new people to develop a new game, but CCP has always been special.

Nobody's asking for 200 devs to work on lag. Sov, UI, POSes, balance, lowsec, and FW are just the things off the top of my head that need fixing and are the subject of several years of CSM backlog.

We are told that these things will not be addressed until 2012, at which point they will definitely probably think about it.

Do you think that if we started posting nicer messages that they'll promise to definitely think about it *hard*? Or maybe we can prepurchase World of Darkness en masse? Or better yet, maybe we can promise to give them like $240 bucks per year per account, for ever and ever and ever!

Rothur Cral
Posted - 2010.07.19 10:56:00 - [918]
 

Nice post. Very pleased to see the quantity of development going on in CCP.

Vheri
Posted - 2010.07.19 10:59:00 - [919]
 

Hmm.. sometimes you have to make one big step into the future and forget about the past. Sometimes you have to just do something and not think about the opinion of the others. Sometimes this is the only way to achieve results.

I think CCP is trying hard to get such a big step done. So all of you - calm down and show some confidence in what they are doing here. If they fail - its their problem.

We are the customers.. CCP is the owner of EVE - so we may suggest something and we can decide if we want to stay ore leave. Everything else is up to CCP.

Ix Forres
Caldari
Righteous Chaps
Posted - 2010.07.19 11:02:00 - [920]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Turdilious
Edited by: Turdilious on 19/07/2010 06:18:11
Has anyone noticed how quiet eve has been recently? With the exception of a peak at the time of the last alliance tournaments/Tyrannis expansion there has been a steady decline in players logged in at any given time. Yes lag is the issue.

http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility



This data seems almost useless without a trend line. I can eyeball it but thats not really that great. :-/

-Liang

To quote myself from earlier in the thread...
Originally by: Ix Forres
http://assets.talkunafraid.co.uk/2010/07/players.png

That graph shows average and peak player counts for TQ (average as in average for the day), plus 7-day rolling averages (code to generate it is here, but requires a data source).


I'd have a longer term graph if I had the data for it - comparison to last year would be nice, but I don't have it.

Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.19 11:10:00 - [921]
 

Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 19/07/2010 10:38:46
You can't tell me or anyone else, who's complaining here, that a single team working on backlog- and CSM-raised issues is too much to ask or messing up the greater scheme of work. That's nonsense!

I wasn't talking about other bugs, I was specifically talking about the lag issue, which seems to be the biggest issue currently.

Also keep in mind that even a ten men team might easily cost a million euro a year (if I use the cost per workplace for the IT department we used at my last employer). It could be as simple as that they need their knowledgeable personnel on other projects, they have no more room in the budget, or something else you'll never hear an official reply from CCP about.

I'm not saying I think it isn't necessary, what I do think is that some of the demands and ideas in this thread are nothing short of ridiculous. You just can't grab a team from project X to work on Y, without completely screwing up the schedule. And sometimes it's more important to keep to the schedule, then to work op Y. Sure I would love the idea if CCP were to dedicate a single team (5-15 folks) to address all the issues the CSM raises year round, that would be fantastic. But I realize that CCP is a business and not a philanthropic organization, without some serious benefit, they won't do it out of the goodness of their own hearts.

Imagine coordinated effort of 8k accounts collectively quitting eve for a couple of months as a demonstration. I imagine CCP would be able to finance a 10 man team from those lost profits...

But those things are (currently) not my issues. Emo-raging on an individual basis isn't going to achieve anything. Nor is the CSM, as it's an elected body that works within the confines that CCP sets. If this is really that big an issue organize yourselves outside of the CCP provided channels. And for frag sake don't start a petition, those are cute but don't do squat!

Dzajic
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.19 11:11:00 - [922]
 

Originally by: Vheri
Hmm.. sometimes you have to make one big step into the future and forget about the past. Sometimes you have to just do something and not think about the opinion of the others. Sometimes this is the only way to achieve results.

I think CCP is trying hard to get such a big step done. So all of you - calm down and show some confidence in what they are doing here. If they fail - its their problem.

We are the customers.. CCP is the owner of EVE - so we may suggest something and we can decide if we want to stay ore leave. Everything else is up to CCP.



Lolwut? I mean you yourself said that we are the customers. We can voice our disagreement over CCP nearly completely abandoning EVE, and if they don't listen we can simply cancel our subscriptions and go back to some other well supported and managed MMO.

CCP depends on us to give it money. Not in any way is that dependably the other way around. And if they cant allocate one small team for bug-fixing and other for game balance for next 2 years... why should we possibly wait?

Mana Sanqua
Posted - 2010.07.19 11:12:00 - [923]
 

Edited by: Mana Sanqua on 19/07/2010 11:12:45
Originally by: CCP Zulu
Wow, thanks for all the feedback, this is amazing. It's great to see all this passion in the community.


*Snip*

CCP Zulu




Your response to the anger shows though very little regard for the issues which is either due to selective blindness or a misunderstanding.

Lag is bad, we're fixing it is a standard CCP response, but there is simply no progress from the players point of view on the issue. More over, the lack of polish or excellence is the main issue that players are complaining about (as evidenced by the monumental thread "Commit to Excellence" in the assembly hall) and plain and simply your response is ignoring that, like it ignored it at the CSM summit and in this dev blog.

How about looking at any of the post with a list of problems such as:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1354510&page=30#877
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1354510&page=30#878

and actually state what CCP has/is going to do about the multitude of issues that are clearly of concern to the player base, but not to CCP.




Geralden
Posted - 2010.07.19 11:14:00 - [924]
 

Hauling my stuff to empire so it can lay dormant for the next 12 to 18 months...


There's alot of games that caught my attention, and seeing that this (the one that i like the most) is going to be unplayable for me (0.0 player) for the next year or more, i think it's time to call it enough.

So, cheers - i'll be back when eve get's attention from CCP again... until then

Flibertygibbet
Posted - 2010.07.19 11:16:00 - [925]
 

So Incarna has been in development longer than world war two, but still no update on when it will be released because its "too early"?

There must be a STAGGERING amount of content - given that it has had more development resources than EVEOnline itself had at launch.

Somewhere along the way there must have been an immense ballsup. Has it been restarted from scratch a few times? This is what Im guessing. I expect to be suitably impressed if/when it is ever released.

Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.19 11:21:00 - [926]
 

Edited by: Cergorach on 19/07/2010 11:23:07
Originally by: Dzajic

Lolwut? I mean you yourself said that we are the customers. We can voice our disagreement over CCP nearly completely abandoning EVE, and if they don't listen we can simply cancel our subscriptions and go back to some other well supported and managed MMO.

CCP depends on us to give it money. Not in any way is that dependably the other way around. And if they cant allocate one small team for bug-fixing and other for game balance for next 2 years... why should we possibly wait?

We as customers can air our grievances, we can do so in a civil manner, not as a couple of raving lunatics (like a lot of folks posting in this thread). I think that no one is trying to convince folks to stay if they feel that CCP/EVE isn't worth their money. I've even encouraged to vote with your wallet. But just don't expect me to vote that way at this time, because I (and others) don't feel the same way.

As for CCP completely abandoning EVE, they have 124 developers working on EVE. Maybe not on things you like or find important, but that is something very different from CCP abandoning EVE.

Elise Masutra
Tleilex Manufacturing
Posted - 2010.07.19 11:32:00 - [927]
 

Edited by: Elise Masutra on 19/07/2010 11:32:59
Originally by: Cergorach
We as customers can air our grievances, we can do so in a civil manner, not as a couple of raving lunatics (like a lot of folks posting in this thread). I think that no one is trying to convince folks to stay if they feel that CCP/EVE isn't worth their money. I've even encouraged to vote with your wallet. But just don't expect me to vote that way at this time, because I (and others) don't feel the same way.

As for CCP completely abandoning EVE, they have 124 developers working on EVE. Maybe not on things you like or find important, but that is something very different from CCP abandoning EVE.


Amen, good sir! I find all the outrage pretty absurd. Sure, there a lot of things that would need fixing from my POV but it is not one of those all the people here are raging about. Screaming wolf all the time and generally being ***hats on the forum doesn't help anyone. So far CCP always pulled through and the constant growth proves them doing something right.

And why do people all get worked up about "300 devs on Apocrypha" and now they abandon EVE? I'm fairly sure they meant "300 people" including GMs, payroll, the chef and the janitor.

I for one am looking forward to Incarna and DUST (although I will probably never play it since I suck at FPS).

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.07.19 11:52:00 - [928]
 

Originally by: Cergorach
Edited by: Cergorach on 19/07/2010 11:23:07
Originally by: Dzajic

Lolwut? I mean you yourself said that we are the customers. We can voice our disagreement over CCP nearly completely abandoning EVE, and if they don't listen we can simply cancel our subscriptions and go back to some other well supported and managed MMO.

CCP depends on us to give it money. Not in any way is that dependably the other way around. And if they cant allocate one small team for bug-fixing and other for game balance for next 2 years... why should we possibly wait?

We as customers can air our grievances, we can do so in a civil manner, not as a couple of raving lunatics (like a lot of folks posting in this thread). I think that no one is trying to convince folks to stay if they feel that CCP/EVE isn't worth their money. I've even encouraged to vote with your wallet. But just don't expect me to vote that way at this time, because I (and others) don't feel the same way.

As for CCP completely abandoning EVE, they have 124 developers working on EVE. Maybe not on things you like or find important, but that is something very different from CCP abandoning EVE.



When the players say "EVE" they usually mean the current spaceship game that can be experienced right now.
Incarna will not be part of that spaceship game (it's walking in stations), Dust will not part of it (it's fighting on the ground), EVE Gate is not part of that (webapp).
So when players say "we want more development time for EVE" they really mean "we want more development time for the features/contents of the in-space part".

For CCP everything is EVE (except WoD and Dust).
So when they say "we put XXX developers on EVE" they mean "we put XXX developers that work on current or future features/contents of the EVE universe, including Dust-Integration, Incarna and EVE Gate".

This difference is easy to spot and understand and I refuse to believe you cannot see it yourself.
Stop trying to fool others.
There is enough marketing speech and word-twisting going on in this thread already.

Jason1138
Posted - 2010.07.19 12:05:00 - [929]
 

"Most of the Incarna teams however (especially the seven that are on loan to EVE) are extremely specialized in either graphics programming or art creation. They could, in other words, not contribute a whole lot to anything else than those specific fields."


so where is everyone who used to work on Eve then? If they're not on Incarna, or Dust, and they're not actually working on Eve, where are they?

don't tell us you've been running Eve with 3 teams this entire time

Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.19 12:10:00 - [930]
 

Originally by: Ban Doga

When the players say "EVE" they usually mean the current spaceship game that can be experienced right now.
Incarna will not be part of that spaceship game (it's walking in stations), Dust will not part of it (it's fighting on the ground), EVE Gate is not part of that (webapp).
So when players say "we want more development time for EVE" they really mean "we want more development time for the features/contents of the in-space part".

For CCP everything is EVE (except WoD and Dust).
So when they say "we put XXX developers on EVE" they mean "we put XXX developers that work on current or future features/contents of the EVE universe, including Dust-Integration, Incarna and EVE Gate".

This difference is easy to spot and understand and I refuse to believe you cannot see it yourself.
Stop trying to fool others.
There is enough marketing speech and word-twisting going on in this thread already.

No, I'm not trying to 'fool' anyone, but what you (and others) experience as being 'EVE' doesn't mean that everyone does.

By your reasoning Wormholes wasn't developing EVE, as that was not yet in the game at the time. How about PI? It's now part of EVE, but still a lot of folks see it as a subgame that is a pain in the butt.

For me, I do little to no combat PVP. I do encounter it on a regular basis in low sec, I generally evade it (cloaking) or just scare it off (a couple of extra battleships show up). So 0.0 warfare isn't part of my 'EVE' experience, does that mean I think it shouldn't be there or be developed? Of course it should be there, there are folks that enjoy that, I might even enjoy that in the future.

Folks like you are trying to make 'EVE' in their vision of what 'EVE' should be, but the folks behind CCP had a vision for EVE, one that includes walking on station and walking/combat on planets. They couldn't do that when they started with EVE Online, but now the can and they want to further develop their vision. That that vision doesn't equal your vision, is a whole different matter.

There have been complaints about other expansions, because the folks that complained felt that CCP didn't add to 'their' part of EVE. Be that 0.0, mining, manufacturing, research, PvP, PvE, etc.


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