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USS Defiant
Posted - 2010.07.19 02:54:00 - [871]
 

Thank you for your comments. On the part about the problem with the feedback loop, I haven't read the minutes, but I think that there may be a problem with the way that bugs get reported. For instance, when you submit a petition, it's fairly obvious that the route from petition to developers for serious issues has problems. That might bear looking into.
Thanks again.

Rubenstain Valor
Posted - 2010.07.19 03:08:00 - [872]
 

Edited by: Rubenstain Valor on 19/07/2010 03:25:34
Quote:
CCP Navigator: Incorrect. Your opinion does matter and we are grateful that you share it with us, just as other players have been doing. Please believe me when I say that this post is not designed to be sarcastic or poking fun. We genuinely want to hear your feedback and it all matters.


All I can hear is yet again more lies.

It makes me sad and angry to see where EVE is heading. It also really amazes me how much similarities CCP has with BP atm. They are doing the same thing to EVE as BP did to Gulf of Mexico.

How can you possibly think that I will believe anything you say anymore. All there is lies, empty promises, more lies, broken content, lies on top of that and half done new content which is creamed with more lies. we (players) are not brainwashed teenage girls and you (CCP) are not Justin Bieber. Also your attempt to roll the blame to CSM is truly horrific. There is no point of crying if you have already **** your pants.

I think I'm just going to wait and see what happens and maybe come back after 18 months and see if things really are in any better state than they are now. That said *click* 2 accounts cancelled for unknown time.

Ps. I can't seriously believe CCP Zulu(park) has been promoted to the position he now is. When I read his first blog, all I could think is (no offence) that this person has the same level of brain activity as Lindsey Lohan in crack.

I truly am sorry that these things are happening to a game I like.

BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.07.19 03:22:00 - [873]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
Originally by: mechtech
Ugh, this thread hurts to read, so much ranting... I just think people really don't understand the original vision of Eve doesn't only encompass space combat and trade. Of course CCP should devote a few more teams to the space side of Eve, but frankly it's about time Incarna got up and running, and DUST will be nothing less than a milestone in gaming history if CCP doesn't screw it up.



I completely agree with you that it is time to expand Eve, it was NOT supposed to just be trade and pew pew. The anger/rage has come from players being (somewhat) patient and now they perceive that they are being ignored. By and large I think most people want Incarna AND the bugs to be fixed. Eve must move forward and keep adding, but the current trend seems to be, put the bugs in a box and when there are enough, work on them.

We want a less efficient solution, we want constant bug working. CCP may claim that 20% of time is on bugs, but as a programmer I know that it takes a lot of time to get up to speed on a problem, to really understand it, and 1/5th of your day, or even 1 day away, well you tend to do the simplest things and not the hard stuff because it is just easier. I believe CCP when they say that many bugs they fix we never see, that is likely this 1/5th time, as it takes dedication to fix the other problems.

best,
Apollo


This, I remember the "all encompassing universe" that Eve was supposed to be, not just the spaceship pewpew version. But as you said, people want both. I can stand holding off until Incarnia/Dust is finished, despite the anger from most people at how long 18 months is. I think people are worried (and rightly so) that after Incarnia CCP will start on it's -next- new pretty and heap an even bigger backlog of bugs, unfinished content, and lack of polish on what is already there. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited to see what Incarnia will bring. Maybe I'll like it, maybe I won't, but much like PI that I don't really use, I think it does great things for the overall eve universe.

Players have been wishing and waiting a long time for an expansion that only works on fixes, polish, and unfinished content. This needs to come after Incarnia before yet more gets added to that "20%" workload.

Corrain
Posted - 2010.07.19 03:28:00 - [874]
 

I'm possibly one of those who could be happy with Incarna. *IF* it was free to develop. Clearly this isn't the case. Players, subscribers, are already looking at five years of design and development time that will spent before we get to walk around in a 3d body, something that was old hat a long time ago.

Then there's the question of what Incarna is supposed to actually be, gaming-wise. My nightmare is what was shown in the Fanfest 2008 videos. I saw a guy walking around a bar, getting a dialog box from a bartender, standing in front of a dancer whose animation cycle broke, and then the client crashed. Then the client was restarted and the guy walked around tables, went up stairs, and played a table-top board game. This was a planned presentation in a controlled environment.

Of course we're going to hear "It'll be much, much better than that." OK, the question we're all asking ourselves is "How?" If you don't want to say, that will be understandable. Expectation management is important. But if you don't, we're all fearing 3d avatars that are meaningless beyond dressing them up and walking around for 15 minutes.

We also fear something broken/ buggy/ unfinished at launch, with the promise of "C'mon, we'll be fixing it and improving it constantly!" Because, you know, track record.

CCP had darn well better have a good answer for "OK, five years of design and development time got us... what?" And not just asked on release day, but two months after when shiny is all gone. Many Eve players pride themselves on cost/benefit analysis, risk vs. reward. We all have our laundry lists of what the resources could have been spent on, how will Incarna measure up?

In the meantime, holy cow, get a clue. Take a few of the little obvious fixes that need done and do a couple of them, tooting your horn while doing so. Reskin a ship or effect that needs it once a month. Cough up a UI improvment, or throw a couple of new missions into the mix. Present it saying "We listen to you guys and try to give you nice things that you want because we like you and care." Reap applause and breathing room, work on your bigger goals, while continuing to show that things that matter to the players, now, matter to you, now.


Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.07.19 03:59:00 - [875]
 

Originally by: Batolemaeus
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

This is what always scares me about reading CCP replies to whine threads. A lot of the time you post sensible, useful responses to common complaints. But then there's always one post that manages to miss the point so spectacularly that my jaw just drops, and it's usually in the form of finding the single dumbest ass-kisser in the thread and quoting them approvingly.


Pretty much.
Nice job insulting people with legitimate concerns. I definitely see how you value your customer's feedback.


Bat, if you saw CCP Explorers comment stating that a poster did a nice summary of the realities of the situation as insulting... well... you have issues my friend.

At this point it really doesn't matter what CCP says now does it? The majority of the people in this thread have circle jerked themselves into a self-righteous frenzy.

You might as well continue, get it all out of your systems. Anyone with a level head and a shred of courtesy have already backed away from posting further in this pathetic cesspool of hysterical drivel.

Meanwhile, the other 95%+ of the EVE community will continue happily playing the game... possibly taking bets on when you folk get around to cutting yourselves for attention.

Eventually you'll get around to discovering that bug fixing and other improvements still happen even while the other development cycles continue. No doubt you will pat yourselves on the back and feel like you made a difference and put them on the right track. Ignore the fact that they have (more or less) been on the right track since the game went gold. Primarily by listening to player feedback when it was feasible from an industry standpoint, and ignoring customer feedback when it would have been detrimental in the long run.

Do you really want to start listing all of the game innovations that are now considered excellent that would have been dropped if they had listened to the negative feedback a minority started spewing at the first sign of change.

Somehow they have managed to come up with one of the best, most revolutionary, and long term successful computers games ever created without completely abandoning their corporate vision because a few egocentric basement lurkers decided they were on the wrong path. They did what they could to make those folks as happy as they could while continuing to make a great game for the rest of us.

Not an easy task.

There is nothing wrong with throwing in your 2cents, but all the preaching, insulting, threatening, and doom saying has gone way past the pale of reasonable.

Get a grip.

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.19 04:33:00 - [876]
 

Edited by: Kai Lae on 19/07/2010 04:36:05
Originally by: Ranger 1
Get a grip.


I'm afraid for a lot of us, that's located right next to the 4th bonus on my ishkur R1. When I get an idea when that'll arrive, I'll give you an idea when what you're asking for will arrive.

Or to be put another way: Being told to gtfo and stfu for another 18 months (at a MINIMUM, because even when in the past they were looking at things CCP typically changes things very slowly) ain't too popular, if you get my drift.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.19 05:10:00 - [877]
 

A detailed response to the CSM minutes

CSM Stakeholder
After listening to Mxnee & Teadaze with @LostInEve, I have to say that the difference between stakeholder and steering committee should have been more clearly lined out. I'd also like to say that its pretty poor form for a CSM to arrive to find the expansion and all resources *unalterably* allocated if they're supposed to sit on and have some responsibility for an expansion.

Where I work, stakeholders are *guaranteed* a certain amount of development bandwidth - and there's a pretty high allocation priority for bugs (especially game breaking ones). I think that it would be a really good idea if (choose one/some):
- The CSM had a dedicated team
- A dedicated team for issues brought up by the CSM. (Advantage: Very PR friendly)
- Each team dedicated x% of their time to issues brought up by the CSM.
- A bounty was placed on issues brought up by the CSM. A team (or individual) could solve these and "Get a raise".

Telling the CSM which of these you're choosing to do and roughly what kind of "development bandwidth" you expect them to have available would be a very good thing.

CSM/Backlog Tools
I highly encourage the use of open source tools to monitor the backlog. Giving the CSM logins to these tools would let see the status of the backlog and ensure that things *actually* are on the backlog. I would recommend having a separate bugtracking system that the CSM does not have access to. If the CSM brings forward an issue/bug, then place a pointer to that issue in the appropriate place in the backlog tool. I would not post specific bug details in a place where the CSM can access it (Hi Larkonis!)

Summer Point Release/Winter Expansion
Please fix the click click grind fest of PI in the summer point release. Please.

Commitment To Excellence
The data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features
The data most certainly shows that polished quality sells better than new features. Consider Age Of Conan, Star Trek Online, Warhammer Online, etc. New features... no polish. Millions in investments down the drain.

I think it would be good to categorize each feature mentioned by the CSM as "defect" or "new feature". I'll assign them as I would if I were the project manager in charge - which means I stepped on my own toes a few times to call something a "new feature" when to me it really seems a defect

Here goes:
- Faction Warfare - Defect [Bugs/Exploits]
- Faction Warfare - New Feature [Revamp, Benefits, etc]
- Lag - Defect
- Game Mechanics To Discourage Laggy Situations - New Feature
- Planetary Interaction - New Feature (#ohgod #makeitstop)
- PI Controls - New Feature
- PI Upgrades - New Feature
- PI Clicking - New Feature (#ohgod #makeitstop)
- PI Planetary Resource Drain - New Feature
- PI Schematic/Filtering - New Feature
- PI Market - New Feature
- PI Destroyable Customs Offices - New Feature
- Corporate PI - New Feature
- PI Overview - New Feature
- Bounty Hunting - New Feature
- COSMOS - New Feature
- Dynamic PVE - New Feature
- Dispersing Mission Hubs - New Feature
- New Agents/Balancing Factions - New Feature
- LP Store Balancing - New Feature
- Mag Site Balancing - New Feature
- NPC Faction Standings - New Feature
- New Forums - New Feature
- Evegate evemail links - Defect [Already in development]
- Evegate Calendar - New Feature
- Evegate Bulletins - New Feature
- Evegate RSS Feeds/Readers - New Feature
- Evegate Starbase Tracker - New Feature
- Evegate Mailing Lists - New Feature
- Evegate Skill Changing - New Feature
- Evegate Killboards - New Feature
- Evegate NPC Notifications - New Feature
- Contact Folders - New Feature
- 0.0 Barriers For Entry - New Feature
- 0.0 Incentives - New Feature
- 0.0 Logistics - New Feature
- Sov/Treaties - New Features
- Sov Improvements - New Features
- Low Sec Criminal Enonomy - New Feature
- Low Sec Nomads - New Feature

(Cont)

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.19 05:16:00 - [878]
 

- Low Sec Bounty Hunting - New Feature
- Faction Warfare Bugs - Defects
- Faction Warfare Exploits - Defects
- Faction Warfare Imbalances - New Feature
- UI Corp Membership List - New Feature
- UI Touchpads - New Feature
- UI Eve Font - New Feature (#omgdefect #justlicenseone)
- UI Dual Monitor Support - New Feature
- UI Colorblind/Accessibility - New Feature (#omgdefect #Imcolorblind #wtfclouds)
- UI Lock Broadcast List - New Feature
- UI Watch List - New Feature
- UI Roles Screen - New Feature
- Ship Balancing/Blasters - New Feature (#sigh)
- Ship Balancing/Laser Tracking - New Feature(#dowhat)
- Ship Balancing/Rockets - New Feature (#ohsolong)
- Ship Balancing/Drone Implants - New Feature
- Ship Balancing/Black Ops - New Feature #prenerf
- Ship Balancing/Shield Gangs - New Feature
- ORE Control Tower - New Feature
- POS Missile Batteries - New Feature
- Ship Fittings - New Feature (#workaround)
- Damaged Drones - New Feature
- F11 Nav Panel - New Feature #favorite
- Save/Reuse Bubble Patterns - New Feature
- T3 Refitting - New Feature


Some choice quotes that make CCP look less like *******s:
Originally by: CCP

CSM inquiry: Will killbards ever be added? CCP: Killboards NOT in near future as there are effective killboards created and run by players already in place



I would say this is some evidence that CCP likes the API and its users. They may not be able to get back to you in a reasonable timeframe... but they do appreciate your efforts. And so do I. <3

Originally by: CCP
CCP responded that PI would most certainly be continued to be worked on, again mentioning that a special PI team would be dedicated to PI for at least the next two expansions.


PI has been released in what many to be considered a ... frustrating state. CCP is (hopefully?) polishing this up for the next two expansions. It should be done by winter 2010 right?

Originally by: CCP
CCP responded that PI would most certainly be continued to be worked on, again mentioning that a special PI team would be dedicated to PI for at least the next two expansions.


I know you didn't ask me, but #flashy #is #cool. YARRRR!!

Originally by: CCP
CCP's next steps regarding UI were identified as follows: Going through backlog of defects


Bravo. You should really toot your own horn a bit here. I hate having to dig this up myself. #epicfail

Originally by: CCP
CCP suggested that the CSM produce a list of balance requests. This list should then be sent to CCP for cost and benefit analysis.


So if I'm reading this right, CCP has all but agreed to implement some low cost fixes that the CSM brings forward. It seems to me that I need to start raging at the CSM for some specific solutions to be brought forward. Low cost, High Impact => CCP will implement. Did I read that right?

-Liang


Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.19 05:29:00 - [879]
 

The important thing to note here is that there's an incredible number of new features presented by the CSM. Even if they're all "old features" that went derelict, they're still basically changes to the way Eve works now. Honestly, I'd say that the CSM outlined at least 3 possible expansions - and maybe a lot more.

I don't think its reasonable for the CSM to expect all of their issues to be addressed - or even a majority of them. They might be able to convince CCP to change an upcoming expansion if they get enough detailed and solid ideas in place - but they aren't in place fast enough to take part in the planning of the current expansion.

Meh. What I'm really left with here is the perception that CCP and the CSM are both doing a not horrible job with the cards they've been given. I agree very very strongly with the CSM that it feels a lot of features are being left behind and eventually we end up with not just code bloat, but also feature bloat. I agree strongly with CCP that they need to work on Incarna and Dust. I think Dust is a really big gamble, but Incarna is probably going to be a good thing once its fully out.

Furthermore, the CSM has no right at all to request that CCP stop work on these titles to focus on Eve. Their best line of attack is to request more development resources for Eve proper - which might include hiring a new team or two. Which they appear to be doing.

I dunno. I feel like a lot of the rage over this is unjustified and caused because the CSM is coming into things at the beginning of a release instead of when planning started (but can they ever be there when planning potentially starts months and years before?).

CSM5: Mismanaged Expectations on everyone's part.

-Liang

Hegbard
Posted - 2010.07.19 05:32:00 - [880]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

Do you really think CCP's PR will be aided by talking with players on the topic of "Look how much of a damn we don't give about our game"? Of course not - they can't win that fight. So they're trying not to have it - instead, they bring in Explorer to throw random grenades at any really annoying comments and talk about how CCP really cares, but whenever we push him into a corner, he replies with "Don't blame me, I'm just a tech guy!". It's not bad, as damage control strategies go - certainly it's a lot better than the dev blog or the CSM minutes that started this - but ultimately it boils down to nothing more than stage magic. Explorer waves frantically at a lot of shiny things to distract us, while Zulupark replaces the game with a mannequin so that he can saw it in half(...don't analyze that metaphor too closely). They want us talking about tech details on Dust and Incarna, because if we're debating that with him, we're not debating the fact that they just trumpeted their total apathy towards Eve to the world. The worst part is, it's working - there's still a bunch of rage, but there's also an increasing amount of technical details. In other words, Explorer has intentionally derailed the thread away from what we wanted it to be about, and we're thanking him for it. I'm all for communication, of course, and I wish we had more like this. This tech stuff is good to know. I just wish it didn't take a massive and wholly unrelated crisis for him to start talking on this scale.



I'm not so sure it's so deliberate. My impression is rather that he's the only one bothering to read this at all during a weekend. The dev blog was published on a typical "Can you guys wait five minutes before going out for beer, I need to finish something" schedule and as usual CCP doesn't understand how this could have backfired. I believe that the dev blog was meant to show how all those people work on EVE because in CCPs mind Dust and Incarna are EVE. And it's probably there that the communication already broke down.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2010.07.19 05:45:00 - [881]
 

OK ...


First off apologies to everyone if all this had been covered to exhaustion in previous posts ... but ... I'm afraid that reading 30 pages of posts ... just to say the same damn thing I say every time Walking In Stations has ever come up ... is something I'm not going to do.


And again, apologies to any and all out there who've already read any of my posts on this subject - this is the same stuff as always - just in response to a devblog ... for whatever that's worth.




Now ... here's my .02 ISK ...


Yes - I'm happy to hear that CCP wants a large as life Sci Fi experience ...

Howerver, for me ... the only thing I can see of any value in just being able walk around in a station is the ability (depending on what emotes we can do) to make videos like this:

From Oblivion

From Guild Wars


So - since that really isn't enough to justify doing this - you really need to have something else for us to do besides ... just walking around in stations. I'm afraid that other than this:

Art of the MCG


There isn't anything I can think of that I would WANT to do.

Anything that adds overhead to operating my space ship ... such as having to walk from one place to the other to do something ... is just going to be a pain in the ass. Whatever you decide to do - has to be an independent activity that doesn't drag down the rest of the game.

One of the things SOE used to ruin Planetside - was coming up with a failed idea - and THEN - twisting other aspects of the game around to try and MAKE people go play with their failed idea. Don't do that.

Please. Let us NOT have Walking in Stations - solely for the sake of Walking in Stations.


It isn't enough to just have an avatar. That avatar has to be able to DO something. Preferably shoot other players. If you can work an FPS into EVE - whether it ties in with Dust or not - that would be great. That would be an addition to the game.


Other than that ... if all you're going to do is have people walking around ... make sure they can do all kinds of emotes and/or open up the interface to fan based add ons - so they can create all kinds of emotes - so people can at least make stupid emote videos.

If what you want is "The Sims INNNNNN SPAAAAAAAAAACE!!!" Well ... good luck with that ... I'll probably not be interested.

*shrug*





Turdilious
Posted - 2010.07.19 06:17:00 - [882]
 

Edited by: Turdilious on 19/07/2010 06:18:11
Has anyone noticed how quiet eve has been recently? With the exception of a peak at the time of the last alliance tournaments/Tyrannis expansion there has been a steady decline in players logged in at any given time. Yes lag is the issue.

http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility

CCP Zulu

Posted - 2010.07.19 06:29:00 - [883]
 

Wow, thanks for all the feedback, this is amazing. It's great to see all this passion in the community.



There's no way that I can reply to every single question or post but I want to clear up a few misunderstandings I've seen tossed around.



Team sizes and composition

First off regarding teams and team sizes. In the scrum, the development model we use at CCP, teams of developers work on defined work increments. A team should be 7 people give or take two. The team has to be able to deliver a fully functioning increment, meaning that the team composition needs to be complimentary. For example a team of only programmers is not a good way to go in most cases and a team of only designers isn't either. A perfect team for EVE feature work is composed of two to three programmers, two designers and two testers.



Incarna

Most of the Incarna teams however (especially the seven that are on loan to EVE) are extremely specialized in either graphics programming or art creation. They could, in other words, not contribute a whole lot to anything else than those specific fields.



Lag

Regarding the fight on lag I also have a couple of comments. We currently have everyone skilled and qualified to work on identifying and fixing lag assigned to identifying and fixing lag. However that task is not as straightforward as you'd hope. Assigning more people to it wouldn't speed up the profiling and exploratory work that's been ongoing as that is something that simply requires data gathering and observation over time and doing small iterative tweaks to code behaviour.



There are about fifteen people working on just that right now. Adding more simply would not return any benefit. Those fifteen are not all 100% allocated to this task as this task couldn't take up all their time, rather they have flexibility to work on that rather than their other assignments when the time is right. Please note that there are more people working on lag related tasks, such as the fleet fight in a can project that are not counted as a part of those fifteen.

It is our experience from now over a decade of doing this that you can't schedule brilliance. So many times the right solution to a difficult problem doesn't come when you're working on it, but when you're working on something else. When that happens it is important that you have a quick and smooth path to work in your idea and publish it. It is this environment CCP is very aware of and very committed to providing. We have some of the most brilliant people in the industry working on this, we're confident that you'll start seeing improvements to the current lag issues soon.

CSM meeting minutes

What has been pointed out is absolutely right. CCP did get the CSM meeting minutes for review before they were published. However they weren't circulated with the meeting attendees, only with the internal CSM management team. The breakdown there is entirely ours, and I never suggested this was the CSM's fault (although fault in this sense is the wrong term as they were simply noting down their perspective which of course is their job) in any way.



I'll continue monitoring this thread and will try to clear more things up but I won't be able to answer specific posts.



CCP Zulu


Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.07.19 06:41:00 - [884]
 

Excellent feedback Zulu,

Looking forward to more.

Best,
Apollo

Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.19 06:50:00 - [885]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu

It is our experience from now over a decade of doing this that you can't schedule brilliance. So many times the right solution to a difficult problem doesn't come when you're working on it, but when you're working on something else.



This is so true. Well stated - I'm excited for Eve's future ugh

Darth Vapour
Posted - 2010.07.19 06:53:00 - [886]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu
we're confident that you'll start seeing improvements to the current lag issues soon.





Is this a faster soon than the one posted February 4th ?

Originally by: CCP Atlas
The problems we are experiencing post-Dominion are being worked on and they will be fixed soon

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.19 06:54:00 - [887]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu
Wow, thanks for all the feedback, this is amazing. It's great to see all this passion in the community.



There's no way that I can reply to every single question or post but I want to clear up a few misunderstandings I've seen tossed around.



Team sizes and composition

First off regarding teams and team sizes. In the scrum, the development model we use at CCP, teams of developers work on defined work increments. A team should be 7 people give or take two. The team has to be able to deliver a fully functioning increment, meaning that the team composition needs to be complimentary. For example a team of only programmers is not a good way to go in most cases and a team of only designers isn't either. A perfect team for EVE feature work is composed of two to three programmers, two designers and two testers.



Incarna

Most of the Incarna teams however (especially the seven that are on loan to EVE) are extremely specialized in either graphics programming or art creation. They could, in other words, not contribute a whole lot to anything else than those specific fields.



Lag

Regarding the fight on lag I also have a couple of comments. We currently have everyone skilled and qualified to work on identifying and fixing lag assigned to identifying and fixing lag. However that task is not as straightforward as you'd hope. Assigning more people to it wouldn't speed up the profiling and exploratory work that's been ongoing as that is something that simply requires data gathering and observation over time and doing small iterative tweaks to code behaviour.



There are about fifteen people working on just that right now. Adding more simply would not return any benefit. Those fifteen are not all 100% allocated to this task as this task couldn't take up all their time, rather they have flexibility to work on that rather than their other assignments when the time is right. Please note that there are more people working on lag related tasks, such as the fleet fight in a can project that are not counted as a part of those fifteen.

It is our experience from now over a decade of doing this that you can't schedule brilliance. So many times the right solution to a difficult problem doesn't come when you're working on it, but when you're working on something else. When that happens it is important that you have a quick and smooth path to work in your idea and publish it. It is this environment CCP is very aware of and very committed to providing. We have some of the most brilliant people in the industry working on this, we're confident that you'll start seeing improvements to the current lag issues soon.

CSM meeting minutes

What has been pointed out is absolutely right. CCP did get the CSM meeting minutes for review before they were published. However they weren't circulated with the meeting attendees, only with the internal CSM management team. The breakdown there is entirely ours, and I never suggested this was the CSM's fault (although fault in this sense is the wrong term as they were simply noting down their perspective which of course is their job) in any way.



I'll continue monitoring this thread and will try to clear more things up but I won't be able to answer specific posts.



CCP Zulu


I'll be damned. Concise, intelligent and informative. Who do you suppose wrote it for him?

Also, looks like the original blog was cleaned a bit. Might just be me, though.

Windjammer

Rimor Terra
Ministry of Rawr
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2010.07.19 06:56:00 - [888]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu

Team sizes and composition

First off regarding teams and team sizes. In the scrum, the development model we use at CCP, teams of developers work on defined work increments. A team should be 7 people give or take two. The team has to be able to deliver a fully functioning increment, meaning that the team composition needs to be complimentary. For example a team of only programmers is not a good way to go in most cases and a team of only designers isn't either. A perfect team for EVE feature work is composed of two to three programmers, two designers and two testers.


Slightly informative stuff, ok, cool.


Originally by: CCP Zulu

Incarna

Most of the Incarna teams however (especially the seven that are on loan to EVE) are extremely specialized in either graphics programming or art creation. They could, in other words, not contribute a whole lot to anything else than those specific fields.



Ok, I read this as "These aren't the devs you're looking for." That's good to know.
Where would the devs that could fix some of these problems that have been stated be? Well except the problem of lag, which leads me to:

Originally by: CCP Zulu

Lag stuff



This is good to hear, and would have been nice to have thrown into the dev blog. So you have all of these people working on it, coming up with new tools to help and analyzing the mass tests. Has anything good come of this or are we still at square one here? That sort of stuff would be very nice to know.

Originally by: CCP Zulu

CSM meeting minutes

What has been pointed out is absolutely right. CCP did get the CSM meeting minutes for review before they were published. However they weren't circulated with the meeting attendees, only with the internal CSM management team. The breakdown there is entirely ours, and I never suggested this was the CSM's fault (although fault in this sense is the wrong term as they were simply noting down their perspective which of course is their job) in any way.



Wow, someone at CCP admitted fault.

You say you disagree with the tone of the mins. CCP's notes on how the summit went would surely not go to waste then.

Originally by: CCP Zulu

I'll continue monitoring this thread and will try to clear more things up but I won't be able to answer specific posts.



It would be great if you could answer some of the questions that Explorer, Navigator, Soundwave and the other devs who have responded can't answer and you, as a man of your position should be able to answer.

-Rimor Terra

Turdilious
Posted - 2010.07.19 06:57:00 - [889]
 

I am glad you are taking lag seriously since this is the most important issue.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.19 06:57:00 - [890]
 

Originally by: Turdilious
Edited by: Turdilious on 19/07/2010 06:18:11
Has anyone noticed how quiet eve has been recently? With the exception of a peak at the time of the last alliance tournaments/Tyrannis expansion there has been a steady decline in players logged in at any given time. Yes lag is the issue.

http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility



This data seems almost useless without a trend line. I can eyeball it but thats not really that great. :-/

-Liang

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.19 07:16:00 - [891]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu
Team sizes and composition


Very very informative. ;-)

Quote:
Incarna


Interesting. I think it'd be swell if we could have one of those teams to do some UI changes, but I'm not terribly surprised by this answer.

Quote:
Lag


Nicely stated. Very very nicely stated - man how long did it take you to write this post? :)

Quote:
CSM meeting minutes


You effectively admit fault for the CSM minutes coming out in the state that they did (with the tone that they did) - and I doubt that this will be allowed to happen again. I can't decide if thats better or worse - on the one hand it can amount to what is effectively censorship, but on the other releasing needlessly inflammatory minutes is detrimental to the game and atmosphere of the forums.

Still, the CSM minutes were depressing in that there's not a lot of development/content bandwidth scheduled for Eve right now... and there's a lot of things that could use some pretty heavy improvements.

-Liang

BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.07.19 07:25:00 - [892]
 

CCP Zulu.... all I can say is thanks. You really cleared some stuff up there, well done. I'd still like to see an expansion devoted to some of that backlogged content, but I know CCP has it's own priorities.

Thanks again.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.07.19 07:36:00 - [893]
 

Edited by: EdFromHumanResources on 19/07/2010 07:40:21
So you had 300 devs working on Apocrypha and since then over 250 have gone missing? If as you say the Incarna devs could not be used for anything in Eve, like oh say, redoing the textures of the the existing space ships(Since it's a space ship game and all) or making motherships larger(Having a supercap that's smaller than a phoenix is pretty hilarious) or you know, giving us that DX10/11 **** you promised us like 3 years ago?

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.07.19 07:52:00 - [894]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Turdilious
Edited by: Turdilious on 19/07/2010 06:18:11
Has anyone noticed how quiet eve has been recently? With the exception of a peak at the time of the last alliance tournaments/Tyrannis expansion there has been a steady decline in players logged in at any given time. Yes lag is the issue.

http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility



This data seems almost useless without a trend line. I can eyeball it but thats not really that great. :-/

-Liang

Ouch, looking especially at the six month login graph, a.k.a post Dominion, it really does look as if there is a trend towards a decreasing number of logins, and the one year graph also seems to point in that direction. Oops.

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.19 07:55:00 - [895]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu
Wow, thanks for all the feedback, this is amazing. It's great to see all this passion in the community.
[...]
The breakdown there is entirely ours, and I never suggested this was the CSM's fault (although fault in this sense is the wrong term as they were simply noting down their perspective which of course is their job) in any way.



So you might have noticed that there's quite a communication problem between you and your players and between you and the CSM. That's something we can definitely improve on.
I hope you never forget that the passion for Eve is something that kept some very good people in your game. You can use that passion to advance the game and your platform further. Open up the API more, and you'll see lots of quality applications for Eve come up. Engage in open discussion about specific things and you're going to get a lot of responses, demonstrated pretty well in this thread.

However, your recent actions have not exactly helped direct and nurture that passion. What you're seeing here is players who love your game worry about its future.

Throw us a bone here. Put one team on game balance and one on working through the smaller issues on the CSM backlog. That's two teams working on improving the experience for everyone and not a lot of effort spent for improving both customer retention and customer acquisition by word of mouth.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.19 07:59:00 - [896]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks
Ouch, looking especially at the six month login graph, a.k.a post Dominion, it really does look as if there is a trend towards a decreasing number of logins, and the one year graph also seems to point in that direction. Oops.


Are you sure you're looking in the right direction? Present day is on the left - it looks like for most of the last year we've been averaging in the mid 20s and in the last few months we've been averaging in the lower 30s. There's a noticeable dip in the last couple weeks, but I wouldn't consider it statistically significant.

-Liang

Missy C
Posted - 2010.07.19 08:08:00 - [897]
 

Edited by: Missy C on 19/07/2010 08:20:11
Originally by: CCP Zulu
I'll continue monitoring this thread and will try to clear more things up but I won't be able to answer specific posts.



So does this mean you are not allowed to/don't want to or don't care enough to answer?

There are many good questions in this thread, which have been left without any answers. All you did with your reply, you "clarified" few things, but you did not address those issues (like so many times before) that are making people boil over. This reply seems to be just quickly written Monday morning post without any relevant information what so many would like to have.

When I'm reading your reply, it is quite clear to me that you haven't read a single post in this thread. It makes me very sad, because under all this rage there is very good feedback in here. Which should be taken seriously, but clearly is not.

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.19 08:10:00 - [898]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
There's a noticeable dip in the last couple weeks, but I wouldn't consider it statistically significant.



Indeed. It's too early to draw any conclusions from that specific graph, especially with the low resolution.

In a month or two, when the 2$ steam deal has died down, the numbers will be a lot more representative.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.07.19 08:10:00 - [899]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Bomberlocks
Ouch, looking especially at the six month login graph, a.k.a post Dominion, it really does look as if there is a trend towards a decreasing number of logins, and the one year graph also seems to point in that direction. Oops.


Are you sure you're looking in the right direction? Present day is on the left - it looks like for most of the last year we've been averaging in the mid 20s and in the last few months we've been averaging in the lower 30s. There's a noticeable dip in the last couple weeks, but I wouldn't consider it statistically significant.

-Liang
Oops again. My mistake. In that case, I see, as you said, a dip in the last month (had to grin at the toothless gap when they messed up the server move Very Happy ), but that can mean anything - summer holidays come to mind.

Omal Oma
Shadowed Command
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.07.19 08:19:00 - [900]
 






Rule of sales: "Word of mouth is the best way to gain new customers."

Right now, the word on the street is that you don't care about your existing customers and the word of mouth is spreading of this. While you may care about EVE, you're not caring about us, your loyal, paying customers.



In my humble opinion... Pull at least 1 team off Incarna and another off Dust with the sole purpose of working on the CSM backlog.


You will gain a lot more respect from players as a company who does give a f*ck about it's players. <-- that alone will kill any other MMO out there.






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