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Wrayeth
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2010.07.18 23:30:00 - [841]
 

Originally by: Bondeknold
I wonder why people keep saying fix this and fix that like a bounch. Of spoiled kids what other games offers no buggs and if eny instant fixes cause idd sure wanna try it . Name just 1 ... You keep complaining and saying that you had enough and you quit but i see you all online enyway so lets cut the crap already before we break the internet with all the water being shared thx ..ccp is and will always be the best and if you think otherwise why are you even here Question


This is the most insightful and constructive post I have ever read. Rolling Eyes

In all seriousness, if you'd bothered to, I don't know, engage your brain, you'd understand that people want certain items fixed because they are the things that hinder their enjoyment when playing. Since, last time I checked, we were all playing this game to have fun, why shouldn't people ask for balancing and mechanics changes if it would increase their happiness with the game and keep them playing?

Niccolado Starwalker
Gallente
Shadow Templars
Posted - 2010.07.18 23:37:00 - [842]
 

Originally by: Hegbard
Originally by: CCP Explorer
TQ has approx. 52 blades, SiSi has approx. 8-12. TQ has a full solid state DB, SiSi has spindles. The TQ blades have much more memory than the SiSi blades.


The customers are revolting against one of the worst damage control attempts since when BP said the oil spill was good for business around the gulf. Let's talk about hardware.


They recently have.


yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2010.07.18 23:40:00 - [843]
 

Originally by: CCP Navigator

Please believe me when I say that this post is not designed to be sarcastic or poking fun. We genuinely want to hear your feedback and it all matters.#



If you take the pitch of dev troll in this thread and run it through a juno 6 synthesizer it sounds just like Bon Jovi.







No you.....the dev at the back, stop waving your lighter in the air, you just ruined the entire team's street cred.

Sae Jabar
Posted - 2010.07.18 23:42:00 - [844]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Just wanted to quote one of your posts after reading a few of your replies since they are a nice summary.

Instead of giving a worthless one-line response to the quoted post, why don't you give us some insight on your own opinion and actually address some of the complaints being raised in this thread, you lackwit?

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.07.18 23:45:00 - [845]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 19/07/2010 00:05:34
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Cergorach
Stuff


Just wanted to quote one of your posts after reading a few of your replies since they are a nice summary.


Herschel put it a lot nicer and well rounded then I will:

Inappropriate comment removed. Zymurgist

Why is this whole thing always boiling down to: "Eat or die?!" Why is it always reduced to: "Vision versus Viability?!" Why is this always and only about dumbed down as: "We can fix stuff and do nothing else or we can do Dust/Incarna/WoD and do no fixings?!"

/Emo-Rage off

Sorry if this went over the line, but you really don't get it, do you? Geez! Next to noone, who's thinking about that whole problem in a fair and reasonable manner, wants you to stop going further in your vision or your expansion as a company! What we want is you to take a step back and actually do something about the very foundations that you stomp so fool-heartedly on, over and over again!

Let me quote something, that someone wrote in a different EVE-related forum, because it sums our problem up quite nicely, short and honest:

"I'll go ahead an admit that I'm looking forward to Incarna, quite a bit. Just not at the expense of the rest of the game."

That is the point of view for most of us, who complain here. We either don't mind Incarna and Dust beeing around or even openly welcome them more or less, but not at the cost of leaving EVE at a near stand-still in improvement, like you openly admitted several times now, try to do.

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.07.18 23:45:00 - [846]
 

I was writing a decently constructive reply to Explorers amazing quote there, trying to somehow bridge the perspectives here.

But, having noticed Herschel's post, I deleted it. Because while he does come across strong, he is spot on.

He has no idea how spot on he even is with some of the general symptoms he observes and touches on.

Erlendur, seriously, please don't do these things. How hard can this be? Come on, all that does is reinforce the perception of "lolcustomers" that people get from CCP - regardless of intent or honest mistake. Try to change perspectives for a bit.

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Just wanted to quote one of your posts after reading a few of your replies since they are a nice summary.


This is what always scares me about reading CCP replies to whine threads. A lot of the time you post sensible, useful responses to common complaints. But then there's always one post that manages to miss the point so spectacularly that my jaw just drops, and it's usually in the form of finding the single dumbest ass-kisser in the thread and quoting them approvingly.

I get that you won't generally like people who seem to spend all their waking hours *****ing at you. Nobody would. Of course you prefer the folks who share your viewpoint, and it's simple human nature to be more willing to overlook stupidity in friends than in foes. But seriously, you're talking about a guy who has been making a fool of himself for the last 20 pages, by saying that fleet lag is currently too high a priority, that CCP should be happy to get rid of customers who complain, and that balance issues don't matter. I don't agree with more than maybe half of what Marko said, and some of Cerg's complaints make sense, but seriously, if you want us to respect what you're saying, do not quote this guy approvingly. It makes us wonder about your sanity.


Rydell
Posted - 2010.07.18 23:46:00 - [847]
 

Originally by: Wrayeth
Originally by: Bondeknold
I wonder why people keep saying fix this and fix that like a bounch. Of spoiled kids what other games offers no buggs and if eny instant fixes cause idd sure wanna try it . Name just 1 ... You keep complaining and saying that you had enough and you quit but i see you all online enyway so lets cut the crap already before we break the internet with all the water being shared thx ..ccp is and will always be the best and if you think otherwise why are you even here Question


This is the most insightful and constructive post I have ever read. Rolling Eyes

In all seriousness, if you'd bothered to, I don't know, engage your brain, you'd understand that people want certain items fixed because they are the things that hinder their enjoyment when playing. Since, last time I checked, we were all playing this game to have fun, why shouldn't people ask for balancing and mechanics changes if it would increase their happiness with the game and keep them playing?


You forgot to mention an important detail, we are paying for EVE. We aren't some whiny kids demanding free stuff. We are paying customers that are told by CCP that fixing EVE is a low priority for the next year and a half.

Rokkit Kween
Posted - 2010.07.18 23:49:00 - [848]
 

Edited by: Rokkit Kween on 18/07/2010 23:49:51
Originally by: Olleybear

With the liscensing of the Unreal 3 engine this past March, what we may be seeing is the release of Dust being pushed back even further as stuff is rewritten to work with this engine and the gobbling up of even more of the limited resources to try and make up that time. But, and this is pure speculation on my part, we may also be seeing the very real possibility of Dust coming out for PC's. Which is something the player base wants.

If true, add yet another item to the "To Do List" with the finite resources to do it all.

In the end, it comes down to patience. I am enjoying myself playing Eve currently as is and am looking forward to what is on the horizon. I hope others are too.


It is highly likely that a large proportion of Dust was worked on, using the unreal engine, before the license was obtained. The engine is freely available to everyone after all and you only need to get a license if you plan to make a commercial release with it.

I'd like to correct someone else from earlier in the thread as well. What we saw of Dust at FF2009 was more than simply a video, we saw it being played live, on stage, by more than one person. The guy on the stage had one controller and he was playing with a whole bunch of people from the Shanghai office who were backstage at the time. We watched Dust being played live on a big screen and I have to say that apart from a few UI elements the game looked pretty complete. I'm guessing that we haven't seen a release yet as its the code that links it to the EVE universe that is the trikckiest to get right, and I hope they do get it right.

I am also skeptical about Dust's longevity on the consoles and hope in my heart of hearts that they are merely using the console release as a cash injection for development and refinement of the gameplay principles for an eventual PC client.

Personally I believe that this whole storm of excrement could have been avoided if communications were better between CCP and the playerbase. I really hope they learn from this and things improve in future.

That being said, this has to be the best thread I've read on these forums in a long long time, I hope CCP are really paying attention to the well thopught out and reasonable feedback they are getting here. Not into the game's mechanics or other complaints of that nature, but the insights displayed into their corporate culture and the levels of communications that they should be willing to go into with their players.

If one thing has been made clear from this it is this. We all love EVE, and we all want it to be the best game ever. But CCP need to know that their players are not just customers, we have invested in this game an awful lot of time and energy and passion. Just as the people at CCP have and we want to continue to do so, but it has reached the stage where CCP have to talk to us more, communicate with us more, and instead of just saying that their listening, they should demonstrate some proof of that.

What we're dealing with here is a failure to communicate, and it is as much the player's failure as it is CCP's. When the forums are full of 'Hurf-blurf-rabble-rabble' and 'FIX <insert pet topic as required>' a thread such as this one is a refreshing and much needed improvement. Lets keep it that way and at least try to communicate rationally with each other. I don't blame CCP for putting its fingers in its ears and singing loudly when all it seems to get from these forums alot of the time is tantrums, trolling and whines.

Let this thread stand as a marker, a marker of the point at which the whining and childishness stopped and we began to be reasonable and grown up in our communications with CCP. And let CCP simply communicate with us without using "Soon(tm)", "this is going to be awesome!!!" and talk to us like the adults that we are.

Edit: spelling

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.18 23:56:00 - [849]
 

At work, things that people request are naturally broken up into defects and new features. How did CCP categorize most of the stuff brought forward by the CSM? Obviously the lag is a defect, and low sec fixes a new feature. Faction warfare seems like it is broken up into both - fixing the exploits and "fixing the broke stuff". Cosmos is similar - mostly "new feature" now.

Someone want to walk through the CSM minutes and tell us what each is categorized as? Are the defects in high priority to be fixed and assigned? Seems like lost in eve hit the nail head on when he made the distinction between a steering committee and a stakeholder.

At least in my experience, stakeholders have a lot more sway when talking about bugs.

But that isn't to say we should ignore that the players seem to feel that things are not Excellent right now

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2010.07.19 00:18:00 - [850]
 

Originally by: Olleybear
With the liscensing of the Unreal 3 engine this past March, what we may be seeing is the release of Dust being pushed back even further as stuff is rewritten to work with this engine and the gobbling up of even more of the limited resources to try and make up that time. But, and this is pure speculation on my part, we may also be seeing the very real possibility of Dust coming out for PC's. Which is something the player base wants.
We had been using the Unreal engine long before the final contract was finalised. No code has to be re-written or ported.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.07.19 00:25:00 - [851]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 19/07/2010 00:26:29
Originally by: Rokkit Kween
I'd like to correct someone else from earlier in the thread as well. What we saw of Dust at FF2009 was more than simply a video, we saw it being played live, on stage, by more than one person. The guy on the stage had one controller and he was playing with a whole bunch of people from the Shanghai office who were backstage at the time. We watched Dust being played live on a big screen and I have to say that apart from a few UI elements the game looked pretty complete. I'm guessing that we haven't seen a release yet as its the code that links it to the EVE universe that is the trikckiest to get right, and I hope they do get it right.


That would be me. Do you have any footage of that happening? Never heard of that before and I'd actually prefer to actually have something solid, when thinking about Dust coming soon™ Neutral

iP0D
Posted - 2010.07.19 00:27:00 - [852]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
We had been using the Unreal engine long before the final contract was finalised. No code has to be re-written or ported.


Out of curiosity .. how long exactly? Don't need to go accurate to the level of days :P But months would be interesting, in light of some industry media articles.

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.07.19 00:28:00 - [853]
 

Why does Zulu's dev blogs always turn into a threadnought?

Jason1138
Posted - 2010.07.19 00:29:00 - [854]
 

is there a reason that no dev can come on here and address anything at all other than purely technical and non-relevant questions like what color the server room is?

not that i don't appreciate explorer's input, because i do, but it certainly seems that he is picking and choosing which topics to address and that every other dev is avoiding this thread like the plague

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.07.19 00:30:00 - [855]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
We had been using the Unreal engine long before the final contract was finalised. No code has to be re-written or ported.


Since it's no secret that CCP is working on Incarna and Dust, is there some reason we can't be told what the state of their development is at the moment, where in the process things stand? Maybe I should keep it simple:

What stage of development is Incarna at, at this time?

What stage of development is Dust at, at this time?

Notice I'm not asking for delivery timeframes. I'm not asking about feature details. I'm just asking where the overall development effort for both products stands right now.

Although every software product I've worked on as a coder was infinitely smaller than EVE and certainly not an immersive product, I always had a pretty good idea of how far along I was in the process, factoring in coding work, potential revisions, asset creation, etc. Surely someone at CCP should have their finger on the pulse of this for Incarna and Dust in order to be able to provide some ballpark information.

And if not, why not?

OwlManAtt
Gallente
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.07.19 00:41:00 - [856]
 

Edited by: OwlManAtt on 19/07/2010 00:49:08
Edited by: OwlManAtt on 19/07/2010 00:41:56
Originally by: Mynxee
What stage of development is Incarna at, at this time?
Indeed. I'm curious why you guys have been so quiet about Incarna. I get the impression that there's more to it than an avatar walking around in a station environment, but I can't find much information on what we're actually going to get. This makes it easy for people to say "LOL INCARNA THIS IS USELESS CRAP WHO CARES ABOUT WALKING AROUND AND CLOTHES".

I've heard rumblings about storefronts and player-made clothing and poker, but I don't think I've ever heard it from a dev. You keep talking about managing expectations; right now, I'm expecting IRC in 3D. While that's nifty, it's not exactly game-changing or particularly useful.

You're CCP, so I'm inclined to think there's more to Incarna than that.

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.07.19 00:42:00 - [857]
 

Edited by: Virtuozzo on 19/07/2010 00:52:16
Edited by: Virtuozzo on 19/07/2010 00:51:19

Originally by: Jason1138
is there a reason that no dev can come on here and address anything at all other than purely technical and non-relevant questions like what color the server room is?

not that i don't appreciate explorer's input, because i do, but it certainly seems that he is picking and choosing which topics to address and that every other dev is avoiding this thread like the plague


Yeah, he is being very selective, but he explained why. He has a strict technical focus. That it looks like damage control, is basically because only his perspective is present. It would obviously be very welcome if someone from Business Development also participated, as an example, but, well, shame.

Sure, his intention is honest and it is a shame that because other then Navigator with one comment and Soundwave with some comments no others maintain an engagement, since that reinforces the old established pattern of "if threadnaught, go technical".

Also, summer holidays. And I wonder about why nobody from the top is responding. It's not like they never have, they used to. And quite constructively too. It's one thing that makes people ask whether the guys at the top either don't want to respond, are not sure how to respond, or don't know the extent of any of this, or are way too busy with other things.

But, I think it is pretty safe to say that a lot of staff are simply afraid of posting in this thread. Let's be honest, there is a LOT of potential for vicious posting, and that indeed happens - but it is important to remember where that comes from. Not lolcustomers, but for the biggest part people who care. A lot.

Personally I find it a shame that unlike older days, where CCP showed up like others putting a foot down when people crossed a line, such actions simply no longer happen. I understand why, but the era that stopped that, is over. And considering the importance of the gaps in perspective, personally I'd welcome a Dev who makes the effort to engage in discussion with his customers to nuke idiots who turn something worthwhile into something akin to (by now) old goon ceo inspired crap (pun intended), into oblivion.

Discussions like these are full of emotion, on all sides, but trolling is not constructive. It just does not help, on any side. Players want CCP to engage, CCP states it wants players to engage, that kinda sets some best practices to both.


d4shing
Posted - 2010.07.19 01:13:00 - [858]
 

Originally by: Ix Forres

And one last one- how does this resource allocation shape up to previous expansions? It'd be nice to see this sort of resource allocation information for previous expansions to see how much of a change this is from the norm.


This.

Apocrypha had 300 devs and was terrific. How many did Dominion have? Tyrannis? It's fairly obvious that 200ish devs have been pulled off EVE to work on vampires and xbox games, resulting in a pile of broken features and deteriorating gameplay for their existing customers. Consequently, I would be pretty surprised if CCP were willing to answer this question.

Frankly, however, I'm surprised that this dev blog appeared in the first place. The optimist in me wants to view it as evidence of internal conflict in CCP over this new business/game development strategy. More likely, though, it's just boneheaded customer relations. Did he and/or his managers really think this would make people say "oh, okay, well that sounds fine, then." After the CSM election, in which every candidate ran on a platform of "fix existing features first", the 80ish page threadnaught in AssemblyHall/JitaSpeakersCorner about excellence, the CSM minutes, numerous player blogs, etc., you'd think CCP would be less surprised.

So what would a dev blog that successfully addresses player concerns look like? Maybe something like the following:

Hey Fans,

You're all aware that we're in the process of developing two new games: DUST and World of Darkness. Developing a new game requires a significant upfront investment. For a variety of reasons, we have chosen to finance the development of these games internally and the development budget for EVE has consequently gone down significantly.

We thought/hoped that the core architecture was fine, and that most of our infrastructure coding devs could be safely moved to other projects. We left some more "content" oriented devs on EVE, as well as some producers and art designers to continue to deliver on our bi-yearly expansion business model.

Unfortunately, this has not worked out as well as we hoped. Fans and players have increasingly voiced their displeasure at the state of the game. Further, our subscriber, PCU, and activity information support the conclusion that this is more than idle forum ragetrolling -- people are having less fun than they used to, playing less often, and, yes, paying less often.

Here are some of the changes we are making to fix this:

*Balance: If the CSM gives us a list of desired balance changes to ships and modules that require no additional coding by August 15th, we will implement them in a patch to be released September 15th. This means blasters, rockets, AFs, the grid on nighthawks, a covops cloak on black ops, dramiels, or anything else that the CSM comes to a consensus on. Any change made in September is, of course, not guaranteed to be final or perfect, and if we have to subsequently retweak the numbers, we will.

*Lag: Once a full investigation is made by our (admittedly small) lagswatting team, we will share the results with our fanbase. If the best solution calls for an additional 20 devs to be pulled off another project to recode the server software for multithreading (as an example), then we will do that. We expect the full investigation to be complete no later than September 15th, and we will be preparing our best devs to transition back to EVE at that time, with an update on their progress to be shared on December 1st.

*Features: [I actually don't know what to do with this one. The "we need a story for FW and lowsec" is an obvious ploy for time. Fixes to Sov, POSes, etc. require manpower that they're unwilling to pull away from their new games, especially if they think they can staunch the bleeding with the previous two.]

Signed,

CCP OhNowWeFinallyGetIt

Kickin Urass
Posted - 2010.07.19 01:17:00 - [859]
 

I'll readily admit I'm not out in 0.0 engaging in large fleet battles. Or even small ones, for that matter.

I have spent most of my Eve career running missions and socializing in Eve Radio's in game channel. I've recently gotten into exploration, and I trade alot.

Anyway - I just wanted to say I've really seen no problems with the game from my perspective. But I tend to agree that if the PvP is as broken as it appears to be from all the threads with cripping lag, there should be no greater priority.

This game is about "putting it on the line" where "it" is ISK in ships that take time to raise the money or real cash to buy (via Plex). I think its great to ask people to really risk things in a game - it raises the intensity big time. But if the game system is crappi' out so taht you're not really risking as much as just plain gambling .... then the whole system falls apart.

Kudos, regardless, to the pwoers that be for entering the fray. I can't think of another game I've played where that's happeend as much as it has here.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2010.07.19 01:26:00 - [860]
 

Originally by: Hegbard
Originally by: CCP Explorer
TQ has approx. 52 blades, SiSi has approx. 8-12. TQ has a full solid state DB, SiSi has spindles. The TQ blades have much more memory than the SiSi blades.


The customers are revolting against one of the worst damage control attempts since when BP said the oil spill was good for business around the gulf. Let's talk about hardware.


Well yeah, obviously. Seriously, this is a pretty transparent damage control attempt. CCP has just published the single dumbest dev blog since probably Zulupark's first one, and they're trying to make us stop raging. Damage control 101 is to say what you have to say(apologize for cheating on your wife, say that those pictures of you with a goat are obvious Photoshops, talk about how you really are committed to Eve, whatever) and then change the topic as fast as humanly possible. You don't want people lingering on the thing that damaged you in the first place, you want to make them stop thinking about it at all. The only reason you even bother to reply is because people will till think about it sometimes, and you want them to think of you as well as can be arranged. But you don't want to fight on ground that awful.

Do you really think CCP's PR will be aided by talking with players on the topic of "Look how much of a damn we don't give about our game"? Of course not - they can't win that fight. So they're trying not to have it - instead, they bring in Explorer to throw random grenades at any really annoying comments and talk about how CCP really cares, but whenever we push him into a corner, he replies with "Don't blame me, I'm just a tech guy!". It's not bad, as damage control strategies go - certainly it's a lot better than the dev blog or the CSM minutes that started this - but ultimately it boils down to nothing more than stage magic. Explorer waves frantically at a lot of shiny things to distract us, while Zulupark replaces the game with a mannequin so that he can saw it in half(...don't analyze that metaphor too closely). They want us talking about tech details on Dust and Incarna, because if we're debating that with him, we're not debating the fact that they just trumpeted their total apathy towards Eve to the world. The worst part is, it's working - there's still a bunch of rage, but there's also an increasing amount of technical details. In other words, Explorer has intentionally derailed the thread away from what we wanted it to be about, and we're thanking him for it. I'm all for communication, of course, and I wish we had more like this. This tech stuff is good to know. I just wish it didn't take a massive and wholly unrelated crisis for him to start talking on this scale.

Of course, this does swing both ways. We should keep grilling him on tech stuff, because we do genuinely want to know. If he wants to derail the thread properly, he has to keep talking and keep saying interesting things. There'll be nothing damaging, of course, but I am genuinely curious. Just don't let him make us forget what we're here for. Damage control works by making people forget why they were raging - make it seem silly, or distant, or yesterday's news. CCP's neglect for Eve is the least silly thing in this game, it affects each one of us, and it's news for at least the next year and a half. Remember that, and have fun with Explorer and the rest of 'em in the side conversations.

Major Rocks
Posted - 2010.07.19 01:40:00 - [861]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: CCP Explorer
TQ has approx. 52 blades, SiSi has approx. 8-12. TQ has a full solid state DB, SiSi has spindles. The TQ blades have much more memory than the SiSi blades.



Well yeah, obviously. Seriously, this is a pretty transparent damage control attempt. CCP has just published the single dumbest dev blog since probably Zulupark's first one, and they're trying to make us stop raging. Damage control 101 is to say what you have to say(apologize for cheating on your wife, say that those pictures of you with a goat are obvious Photoshops, talk about how you really are committed to Eve, whatever) and then change the topic as fast as humanly possible. You don't want people lingering on the thing that damaged you in the first place, you want to make them stop thinking about it at all. The only reason you even bother to reply is because people will till think about it sometimes, and you want them to think of you as well as can be arranged. But you don't want to fight on ground that awful.

Do you really think CCP's PR will be aided by talking with players on the topic of "Look how much of a damn we don't give about our game"? Of course not - they can't win that fight. So they're trying not to have it - instead, they bring in Explorer to throw random grenades at any really annoying comments and talk about how CCP really cares, but whenever we push him into a corner, he replies with "Don't blame me, I'm just a tech guy!". It's not bad, as damage control strategies go - certainly it's a lot better than the dev blog or the CSM minutes that started this - but ultimately it boils down to nothing more than stage magic. Explorer waves frantically at a lot of shiny things to distract us, while Zulupark replaces the game with a mannequin so that he can saw it in half(...don't analyze that metaphor too closely). They want us talking about tech details on Dust and Incarna, because if we're debating that with him, we're not debating the fact that they just trumpeted their total apathy towards Eve to the world. The worst part is, it's working - there's still a bunch of rage, but there's also an increasing amount of technical details. In other words, Explorer has intentionally derailed the thread away from what we wanted it to be about, and we're thanking him for it. I'm all for communication, of course, and I wish we had more like this. This tech stuff is good to know. I just wish it didn't take a massive and wholly unrelated crisis for him to start talking on this scale.

Of course, this does swing both ways. We should keep grilling him on tech stuff, because we do genuinely want to know. If he wants to derail the thread properly, he has to keep talking and keep saying interesting things. There'll be nothing damaging, of course, but I am genuinely curious. Just don't let him make us forget what we're here for. Damage control works by making people forget why they were raging - make it seem silly, or distant, or yesterday's news. CCP's neglect for Eve is the least silly thing in this game, it affects each one of us, and it's news for at least the next year and a half. Remember that, and have fun with Explorer and the rest of 'em in the side conversations.


My god. Finally. You sir, understand the politics played here. Excellent post.

Shame however, that they are just not going to look at it, because it has nothing of interest to them. It does not match their perspective, so they will just write it off as "annoying customers", and make each other scared with how evil they are.

Shaemell Buttleson
Posted - 2010.07.19 02:03:00 - [862]
 

What I like about PC's compared to consols is the fact I can rebuild them every year and keep playing the latest games. And because of the fanbase of alot of classics there is a large modding community which breaths new life into older games. For example I know of several ppl who have reinstalled thief in the last week and upgraded it with a texture pack and are enjoying it.

When Dust comes out on it's consol platforms is it going to be rewritten each time with nice new textures etc when the new generation come out or is it just going to be backward compatible. The reason I ask is out of the many consol owners I know very few play games that are more than 12 months old. And it's even rarer for them to dust off (no pun intended honest) and play them on a newer machine even though they can.




Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2010.07.19 02:07:00 - [863]
 

This devblog looks like damage control because frankly what most of the complainers really care about are things that have been going on for years with CCP.

All Zulu is doing is blowing hot air, and all any devblogs and posts can do is blow more hot air until the bugs and issues that have been in this game for years get addressed. And that isn't going to happen with your current approach any more than it happened in the past, which always had people irritated. You went through your period of 'growing pains' where you told us to wait and bear with you while you restructured your development process and blogged about how cool it was, but in the end we're seeing the same thing. Old features being left to rot, ancient bugs and requests being completely ignored, and business as usual.

Things may be different from the position of developers over there, but from the user end it's the same. If you want to do something different to please the kinds of rage you are talking about in this blog, you will do what we're asking. You will set aside a lot more of your time and effort to addressing issues.


Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2010.07.19 02:10:00 - [864]
 

Edited by: Dodgy Past on 19/07/2010 02:10:48
Interesting to note how the Business side always manage to be around to collect the credit when something good happens, but dissapear into the shadows when their customers want some concrete answers to their problems.

This thread seems to be showing that large numbers of people are all sharing that niggling feeling that while they can't put their finger on it something is going drastically wrong.

It would be a lot more comforting to see someone who had real insight and authority to actually explain what is really going on, but we won't even get an acknowledgement to this thread from anyone with any real power.

While I do have a lot of sympathy with the people from CCP getting involved in this thread there, none of you seem to be in a position to actually change anything. The thing is people aren't going to let this lie, people have already dragged massively into this and things are going to continue to escalate.

Taladool
Minmatar
JIta-Hosting
Posted - 2010.07.19 02:18:00 - [865]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Hegbard
Originally by: CCP Explorer
SISI Info


The customers are revolting against one of the worst damage control attempts since when BP said the oil spill was good for business around the gulf. Let's talk about hardware.


Well yeah, obviously. Seriously, this is a pretty transparent damage control attempt. CCP has just published the single dumbest dev blog since probably Zulupark's first one, and they're trying to make us stop raging. Damage control 101 is to say what you have to say(apologize for cheating on your wife, say that those pictures of you with a goat are obvious Photoshops, talk about how you really are committed to Eve, whatever) and then change the topic as fast as humanly possible. You don't want people lingering on the thing that damaged you in the first place, you want to make them stop thinking about it at all. The only reason you even bother to reply is because people will till think about it sometimes, and you want them to think of you as well as can be arranged. But you don't want to fight on ground that awful.

Do you really think CCP's PR will be aided by talking with players on the topic of "Look how much of a damn we don't give about our game"? Of course not - they can't win that fight. So they're trying not to have it - instead, they bring in Explorer to throw random grenades at any really annoying comments and talk about how CCP really cares, but whenever we push him into a corner, he replies with "Don't blame me, I'm just a tech guy!". It's not bad, as damage control strategies go - certainly it's a lot better than the dev blog or the CSM minutes that started this - but ultimately it boils down to nothing more than stage magic. Explorer waves frantically at a lot of shiny things to distract us, while Zulupark replaces the game with a mannequin so that he can saw it in half(...don't analyze that metaphor too closely). They want us talking about tech details on Dust and Incarna, because if we're debating that with him, we're not debating the fact that they just trumpeted their total apathy towards Eve to the world. The worst part is, it's working - there's still a bunch of rage, but there's also an increasing amount of technical details. In other words, Explorer has intentionally derailed the thread away from what we wanted it to be about, and we're thanking him for it. I'm all for communication, of course, and I wish we had more like this. This tech stuff is good to know. I just wish it didn't take a massive and wholly unrelated crisis for him to start talking on this scale.

Of course, this does swing both ways. We should keep grilling him on tech stuff, because we do genuinely want to know. If he wants to derail the thread properly, he has to keep talking and keep saying interesting things. There'll be nothing damaging, of course, but I am genuinely curious. Just don't let him make us forget what we're here for. Damage control works by making people forget why they were raging - make it seem silly, or distant, or yesterday's news. CCP's neglect for Eve is the least silly thing in this game, it affects each one of us, and it's news for at least the next year and a half. Remember that, and have fun with Explorer and the rest of 'em in the side conversations.


This man gets it, As long as they keep side tracking the thread and not directly addressing the issues, the player base will continue to get mad, and maybe walking. If CCP thinks this is a good thing, then ignore the player base, and see what happens. I'm sure some will stay, but it wont be the same eve.

Koas Deston
Posted - 2010.07.19 02:20:00 - [866]
 

Originally by: LordSwift
Awesome cant wait for incarna. Keep up the good work ccp. ignore all the whining idiots on the forums.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.07.19 02:24:00 - [867]
 

CCP

Please release a schedule for the many bugs and old release fixes, such as:

Winter 2010: FW and 0.0
Summer 2011: Bounty System and low sec...

Don't shoot me for the order or topics, just throwing out an idea.

CCP: Please let us KNOW when you will fix things, and STOP putting everything into the later when we get to it bin. It may be the "easy" way for you to conceptualize it, let me use an analogy:

You're in a restaurante, you see you food in the service window, your waiter goes to the window and takes out different food to another table, he looks at you and nods his head as he walks past. You think, oh he's going for mine now. Next he goes and has a smoke, comes back in, goes to the service window, and you think NOW is it, and he takes out refills to your table, but no food. You ask him "I can see my food, why aren't you bringing it out?" he replies, oh well we are still working on it, some of the fries are done yet, and leaves...

While you are waiting time seems to last forever. Give us small things regularly and I bet the anger will subside.

Best,
Apollo

mechtech
SRS Industries
SRS.
Posted - 2010.07.19 02:25:00 - [868]
 

Ugh, this thread hurts to read, so much ranting... I just think people really don't understand the original vision of Eve doesn't only encompass space combat and trade. Of course CCP should devote a few more teams to the space side of Eve, but frankly it's about time Incarna got up and running, and DUST will be nothing less than a milestone in gaming history if CCP doesn't screw it up.

That said, I'd MUCH rather have this thread than a thread where people complain about death penalties, difficulty, and "ganking". The day Eve loses its core audience and core values will be the day Eve dies IMO. I hope CCP understands that this thread is ultimately much better than the alternative for the health of the game!

I hope they also understand that the cold, cruel, far reaches of space will forever be the home of most of the core player-base, and that throwing a few more teams onto game balance and fixing poorly implemented features such as faction warfare will help keep the core player base strong and unified in the face of change.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.07.19 02:30:00 - [869]
 

Originally by: mechtech
Ugh, this thread hurts to read, so much ranting... I just think people really don't understand the original vision of Eve doesn't only encompass space combat and trade. Of course CCP should devote a few more teams to the space side of Eve, but frankly it's about time Incarna got up and running, and DUST will be nothing less than a milestone in gaming history if CCP doesn't screw it up.



I completely agree with you that it is time to expand Eve, it was NOT supposed to just be trade and pew pew. The anger/rage has come from players being (somewhat) patient and now they perceive that they are being ignored. By and large I think most people want Incarna AND the bugs to be fixed. Eve must move forward and keep adding, but the current trend seems to be, put the bugs in a box and when there are enough, work on them.

We want a less efficient solution, we want constant bug working. CCP may claim that 20% of time is on bugs, but as a programmer I know that it takes a lot of time to get up to speed on a problem, to really understand it, and 1/5th of your day, or even 1 day away, well you tend to do the simplest things and not the hard stuff because it is just easier. I believe CCP when they say that many bugs they fix we never see, that is likely this 1/5th time, as it takes dedication to fix the other problems.

best,
Apollo

Haven Wind
Posted - 2010.07.19 02:53:00 - [870]
 

I cannot wait for Incarna! I find this devblog to be a sigh of relief, as I was beginning to doubt whether it would ever see the light of day. (assuming stations use full spectrum lighting Smile )

I have done my share of pvp but my schedule is not what it once was. Trading and moving freight, a little planetary mining, some mission running, I have no issues with the game at all right now.

I just want to offer CCP another perspective. I love this game (I just resubbed for another full year) and I have a huge grin on my face as I read 70 devs on Incarna!



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