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Hyperforce99
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.07.18 12:54:00 - [751]
 

Originally by: Janus Nightmare
Just my two cents here on a couple of issues....

..."To Long Didn't Quote"...

The mistake we make as a community is believing that Eve is being cast aside, whereas I'm a firm believer that all of these things, Dust and Incarna especially, are designed to help Eve grow well into the future.


I agree with this, also as a developer CCP has put a lot of time, money and effort into developing both DUST and INCARNA allready, It would be more effective to finish up the current itteration of those projects first before moving onto other major changes.

At this point it's simply not an option to stop developing either DUST or INCARNA since they are allready far into their respective production cycles.

Jason1138
Posted - 2010.07.18 13:08:00 - [752]
 

i think it would go a long way if CCP would just fix some part of the old content, any part, to show they still give a flying crap about eve

it wouldn't take someone 20 min to fix rockets, why can't they just do that? it gets brought up 10 times a day on the forums

then they can say "see, we ARE listening to you, don't worry about Incarna taking all our time" and alot of (stupid) people will calm down about it. The fact that they're not even willing to do a token goodwill gesture is more worrying than alot of the other serious issues, because it goes to show their state of mind on relations with their customers

Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.18 13:11:00 - [753]
 

Originally by: Jason1138

it wouldn't take someone 20 min to fix rockets, why can't they just do that?

Best 'fix' for rockets would be to remove them from the market, no one can buy them, no one can use them, no one can complain about them... ;-)

Dzajic
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.18 13:28:00 - [754]
 

Originally by: Cergorach

Best 'fix' for rockets would be to remove them from the market, no one can buy them, no one can use them, no one can complain about them... ;-)


Troll harder please.

If CCP ever started removing ships and modules that are "useless" or "grossly underpowered" in a couple of years we'd be left with a single ship and a single fit for it. Removing stuff is worst method of game balance.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.07.18 13:29:00 - [755]
 

Originally by: Dzajic
Originally by: Cergorach

Best 'fix' for rockets would be to remove them from the market, no one can buy them, no one can use them, no one can complain about them... ;-)


Troll harder please.

If CCP ever started removing ships and modules that are "useless" or "grossly underpowered" in a couple of years we'd be left with a single ship and a single fit for it. Removing stuff is worst method of game balance.


I think best 'fix' for trolls would be removing them from game.

Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.18 13:31:00 - [756]
 

Edited by: Cergorach on 18/07/2010 13:32:01
Originally by: Dzajic
Originally by: Cergorach

Best 'fix' for rockets would be to remove them from the market, no one can buy them, no one can use them, no one can complain about them... ;-)


Troll harder please.

If CCP ever started removing ships and modules that are "useless" or "grossly underpowered" in a couple of years we'd be left with a single ship and a single fit for it. Removing stuff is worst method of game balance.

You somehow missed the winking smiley at the end of that sentence? Of course I wasn't serious, but it is an acceptable response imho to the statement that "it wouldn't take 20 minutes to fix".

Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
Posted - 2010.07.18 13:37:00 - [757]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

I think best 'fix' for trolls would be removing them from game.

That would only leave 2.6 players to EVE, you can't do that! ;-)

Dzajic
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.18 13:37:00 - [758]
 

Originally by: Cergorach

You somehow missed the winking smiley at the end of that sentence? Of course I wasn't serious, but it is an acceptable response imho to the statement that "it wouldn't take 20 minutes to fix".


Ah sorry. This thread (aka the situation EVE is in) is a bit rage generating, and there have been some vicious trolls on previous pages so I stopped looking at smilies and who undertones of posts. My bad. :(

Fixing rockets isn't 30 minutes sure. But 2 or 3 people who have some sense of small ship combat and know how to modify stuff in master DB could just take a look over some Assembly Hall trednoughs on rockets, do a minor tweak and let in on SISI for people to try out.

Now, active armor tank and hybrids would need a lot of man months to get right. But its still something a small team could achieve in month or two.

Don Dark
Amarr
x13
Posted - 2010.07.18 13:47:00 - [759]
 

How could you do this to me ccp the internet is my life ! Flame flame quit quit cry .... Good job on the thread zulu and gz on the new Rank :-) SKÅL/CHEERS

Don Dark
Amarr
x13
Posted - 2010.07.18 13:53:00 - [760]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Dzajic
Originally by: Cergorach

Best 'fix' for rockets would be to remove them from the market, no one can buy them, no one can use them, no one can complain about them... ;-)


Troll harder please.

If CCP ever started removing ships and modules that are "useless" or "grossly underpowered" in a couple of years we'd be left with a single ship and a single fit for it. Removing stuff is worst method of game balance.
. Sadly reading this forum ive come to think that humans is a deing race . Trolls are taking over the universe ! Always 90% forum posts containing real tears and ragequitting wich never happens funny enough

I think best 'fix' for trolls would be removing them from game.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.07.18 13:54:00 - [761]
 

Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 18/07/2010 14:09:50
Originally by: Cergorach
The Xbox360 and PS3 all have relatively large HDs these days, installing a game on such a HD is possible and often preferred by gamers. Patching through an online service shouldn't be so hard, there are enough console games with DLC and patches.


Ok, I'll leave it at this.

Originally by: Cergorach
http://www.gamese****ch.com/2009/08/dust_514_footage_from_ccps_con.php
Looks like ingame footage to me...

Has been in development in 3.5-4 years, even if it takes another year to release date, I would think it's still almost ready.


At least you could be so kind to make it a clickable link and bypass the word-filter or even link the complete Video (Version 2.0): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzVjggarRns

And exactly this is the video I was talking about. Fanfest 2009. PRIOR to the UT3-license. Whatever you see there, be it actual footage (like you believe) or a simple video (as one can easily see it's a simple rendered video - especialy if you compare the footage to EVE-trailers and the graphics used therein), it is not the Dust514, that will hit the XBox. Whatever state Dust-development is in, there has been no more footage ever, then this one simple video.

Originally by: Cergorach
WoD techdemo earlier this year:
http://www.massively.com/2010/03/20/video-shows-ccps-incredible-cloth-and-hair-simulation/

Of course Incarna is related to WoD, whether it's a direct progenitor, a twin, or a bastard to the engine WoD will use is still unclear to me (would like to hear from a Dev about this). Incarna has been in development for years, WoD MMO development would run parallel to this. In 2006 CCP aquired WW, the WoD MMO was already in the planning stages at the time. So yeah, I expect already (3) years of development. And I suspect that the graphics engine isn't the biggest issue of an MMO, it the server side, the system (game mechanics), the story, the world.


2006, WoD development-start was announced. What happened since then? We got a tech-demo of clothings and, admittedly a nice one at that, which will definitly be used for Incarna and as such, for the WoD-MMO. But beyond that? What? it doesn't even have a web-presence of it's own by now. No concept-arts, no updates on its status, no hints about the content, no anything...


Originally by: Cergorach
There has been ingame footage for Incarna (previously Ambulation) for over three years:
http://www.tentonhammer.com/index.php?q=node/620

Incarna is also a bit of a bigger system, with lots of subsystems, then the fixing lag. Not to mention of a search team (lag) vs. a build team.


Lot's of subsystems? Which ones? Hair-styles, bar-tending and fancy clothing were announced. But beyond that? "Mini-games" were mentioned. Oh and a tactial or strategical planning whatchamathingbob. Details? None. Oh wait... A video from 2008... Right. But since then? No news. not even the CSM got shown anything. Every CSM-member said that clearly in their various blogs and comments and none of them found that satisfying at all, neither do I.

4 years for a tech-demo on fancy-clothings?
3 years for a single video, which even was released prior to a complete engine-change?
2 years since the last actual real footage about Incarna (Fanfest 2008: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7R6AxoO8yY and only few plans on what to actualy do with it).

Anyways, this pretty much isn't what this thread is about, so I'll stop about that here.

CCP Navigator


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.18 14:13:00 - [762]
 

Originally by: Jonny Miami
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
I work on EVE!

That makes me awesome.
I play on EVE!
That makes me...

Anyways, I'd just like to say I realize my opinion doesn't matter in the slightest. Never has and never will.

It's ccp's game and they will do whatever they want to. That was one of the things that attracted me to eve way back when. I had the impression that eve was made by a bunch of guys that wanted to make a game that they wanted to play. They didn't give a damn about what anyone else thought and if they got rich doing it, all the better.

I'd also like to say that ccp has worked very hard over the last 6 years to get me to the point where I will completely disbelieve everything they say until proven otherwise. I'm ok with that and I'm sure they are too. In my worthless opinion, they, at the very least, overhype, exaggerate and troll. In fact I'm tempted to report zulu for trolling with this blog (18 months is just plain wrong, it's a year and a half silly). Gotta give them credit where credit is due, they do enjoy griefing the players(we know about the new blackscreens and new uber lag but on the other hand the health of the server has never been better)YARRRR!!

So I'll continue to have fun playing the parts of their game that I consider playable and fun, and when I stop having fun, I'll leave. No big deal.

The frustrating part is I see so much unrealized potential and it appears that they're ****ing it away in ever shortening cycles of subs. But, that doesn't matter. Does it? My opinion means nothing and after all, its just a game.


Incorrect. Your opinion does matter and we are grateful that you share it with us, just as other players have been doing.

Please believe me when I say that this post is not designed to be sarcastic or poking fun. We genuinely want to hear your feedback and it all matters.

DarthJosh
DEATHFUNK
Posted - 2010.07.18 14:29:00 - [763]
 

Edited by: DarthJosh on 18/07/2010 14:32:41
everything's spread out too thin. Eve's code won't handle this, and fixing the code will fix the lag, but there is no mention of this.

new content. new content. new content. WE DON'T WANT NEW CONTENT. not yet anyhows. fix what's broken first. blasters/rockets/fleet fights/server and client sending /TOO/ much data to eachother that causes horrible lag.

please. Stream-line Eve, then all that stuff you want to add to get more customers. otherwise...


otherwise, judging by the Dev blog and me playing this game for 5 years now, the game does give a feel of heading to hell in a Handbasket. it's being overdeveloped, and no one is caring if it's ready to take on all these changes.

All living things evolve their bodies and skeletons first, then their brains follow. this is going the opposite way around, leaving Eve to be a defenseless organism in this hightech jungle.


Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
Posted - 2010.07.18 14:36:00 - [764]
 

Edited by: Le Skunk on 18/07/2010 14:55:58
Originally by: CCP Navigator

Incorrect. Your opinion does matter and we are grateful that you share it with us, just as other players have been doing.

Please believe me when I say that this post is not designed to be sarcastic or poking fun. We genuinely want to hear you r feedback and it all matters.


You, and your collegues continualy state how highly you value feedback

A whole bunch of feedback from the CSM

Yet when SO MUCH feedback is given to you:

* So many forum posts in Assembly Hall
* So many debates in those threads
* So many hours days and weeks spent narrowing those ideas down
* So much time spent by the CSM narowing down these further to present to you

And you dont implent it. Whats the point of putting the effort in to use your own mechanisms to impact on what the player want the game to be - when there is clear cpp have not had the will to allocate sufficient resources to implement them for the last few years, and reportedly your not going to even look at implementing them for the next 2 years either. Why add further issues to a stack of ignored issues?

The amusing thing I find - As someone who has watched with initial scepticism, growing disdain and eventual disgust - Is that most of the issues that are brought up and debated by new players - eager to take part in the great ccp democracy - in the assembly hall... ARE ALREADY AGREED AND SITTING ON THE CCP TO DO LIST. They have already run the whole gamut of the system you implemented and the ball has been in your court for years.

People are literaly wasting their time on there. And when it is clear you are wasting peoples time - they become angry.

Gif us feeback! You cried. And we respond in our thousands.IMPLEMENT SOME OF THIS FEEDBACK! We cry at you. and we are either ignored or patornised.

Any CCP employee coming out with the standard "your feedback is important to us" guff is visibly undermined to the point of farce, by the spectre of the reams of ignored feedback given in the past.

Im sorry but in regards to talking about feedback - your laughable.

SKUNK




arjun
Viziam
Posted - 2010.07.18 14:41:00 - [765]
 

Edited by: arjun on 18/07/2010 14:51:14
so if my opinion counts then tell me please why i and many others complained in vain about the cancel-order and modify-order button closenes for at least 5 years in many many posts?
all it would take is a separator line or move one of them to the botton of the drop down list. would save many many frustrations but no you cant be arsed.

edit: customising the trade ui would be a boon too. for instance i want 2 warnings when the ui thinks i do something wrong not one. sometimes the one warning doesnt become visible because of lag. i lost 18 billion to one typo alone this way. and dozens of more billions to other typos because i cant customise when i receive a warning.

Drifnir
Mnemonic Enterprises
Posted - 2010.07.18 14:52:00 - [766]
 

Edited by: Drifnir on 18/07/2010 15:17:13
Edited by: Drifnir on 18/07/2010 15:01:32
Originally by: CCP Navigator

Please believe me when I say that this post is not designed to be sarcastic or poking fun. We genuinely want to hear your feedback and it all matters.


My feedback? Ok. I love EVE. No other game has given me this freedom to be this much of a prick, or a philanthrope when the mood strikes me. I've found parts of the game that makes me cry tears of blood (missions), and parts of it that makes me jump from joy (living in W-space).

I've been delighted by the level of communication from devs in the past, almost felt like you could bump into them in local and shoot the breeze. What has left me quite jaded, however, is the promises made, and subsequuently broken, without any explanation, let alone notification. The list is long, and put more eloquently elsewhere in the thread.
But much like any other victim of domestic abuse (i've gotten my ass kicked by both players, the UI, rats and my own stupidity) I keep coming back for more, because THIS time it will be different. Only, it wasn't this time. I fell down the stairs again, and bought the wellmeaning and probably sincere devs' promises of 'this will be AWESOME!'. So i'm left disappointed yet again, no new toys to play with, (although CCP Dropbear keeps dangling the carrot of more story for the sleepers over in the fiction forum. Slap him, pleaseShocked), no promised iteration.
My disappointment stems mainly from broken promises, not the allocation of dev resources, although i could care less about DUST. The UI gets special mention here, since stuff takes 5 times as long to do, as it should. Corp roles management could do with a polish, or CCP should start handing out their own Master's degrees, when you wrap your head around the obtuse logic behind it. There is all this unrealized potential in EVE that we all feel, but it never quite seems to be delivered. Apocrypha is obviously a decent example of the vaunted Excellence we're all striving for.

Luckily, W-space is not really afected by the lag monster, so i'll refrain commenting on that, though i can understand the fury it will engender, especially after all this time.

Obviously there is a lot of pent up frustration in the community, and the dam broke with the minutes from CSM5. So, to return to the domestic abuse metaphor, we're nearing the point where no means no, and i'll leave Eve behind and take the kids. Maybe the next guy will treat me right...

TL;DR: I love you. Very much. Stop promising to take me out to dinner, and buy me an apocrypha-flavoured steak already. Bit of polish here and there, bit of bugs squashed and i'll love you forever. <3

edited for grammer and elaboration.

Drifnir
Mnemonic Enterprises
Posted - 2010.07.18 14:59:00 - [767]
 

Edited by: Drifnir on 18/07/2010 15:00:09
disregard please, i'm an idiot.

Sae Jabar
Posted - 2010.07.18 15:00:00 - [768]
 

Originally by: DarthJosh
Edited by: DarthJosh on 18/07/2010 14:32:41
new content. new content. new content. WE DON'T WANT NEW CONTENT. not yet anyhows. fix what's broken first. blasters/rockets/fleet fights/server and client sending /TOO/ much data to eachother that causes horrible lag.

please. Stream-line Eve, then all that stuff you want to add to get more customers. otherwise...

It's not going to happen because CCP doesn't want to spend time rewriting all the crappy old code from scratch, so to distract players they release half-baked content updates and advertise heavily. I'm sure they're happy with the increase in active subscriptions since they started their heavier advertising campaigns since Apocrypha/Dominions.

A lot of companies pay contractors to go through old code to streamline it, but it is costly and CCP is a cheap (capitalistic) company which won't do it. Notice that none of the devs are replying to any posts asking for them to consider a rewrite.

Dragon Greg
Posted - 2010.07.18 15:05:00 - [769]
 

Edited by: Dragon Greg on 18/07/2010 15:11:05
Originally by: CCP Navigator


Please believe me when I say that this post is not designed to be sarcastic or poking fun. We genuinely want to hear your feedback and it all matters.


I believe you, it fits the established pattern. Also, thanks for your reply.

The question however remains, what do the people who in CCP make the decisions (you know, stone tablets coming down the mountain :P) do with that feedback. Because nothing is ever visible in results from there.

The reason I ask this, is because CCP has a long history of feedback processes going mostly haywire. While at several points in its history feedback was acted on, it was virtually never visibly action without a lot of excess on all ends. For example, the POS situation which lingered on for years and years, only ever got on a table when during face time one guy very nearly drove people to tears with describing how every little piece of it drove people to insanity.

Now, in this case of the CSM minutes, and the devblog, once again it is visible that even the "ultimate" feedback instrument is quite simply not acted on. Let's be honest for a moment, even a modicum of action on the decision level could have prevented the emberassment of the statement of confusion. When a meeting is over, and you have to publish results, you ALWAYS check in actively and proactively in order to ensure that your department or participation is correctly presented, and if during such an obligatory followup process something pops up, communication saves the day. God forbid the CSM liasons at CCP are blamed for that, this is a problem of bosses.

This isn't touching on the business model, commercial scoping, definitions maintained in different perspectives, or even structural challenges CCP as a company in its growth. You're just as aware as players, that people want to believe. That's why over the time this place becomes less hectic, and the care is shifted to community forums and sites. Segregation begets segregation, so to speak. In customer retention, this is a primary variable.
But, on the plus side, this combination of wanting to believe and customers making the same emotional link as the creators, is why EVE players rarely vote with their feet. And that, is something to build on. Not to take as a secondary variable in a snapshot derived graph on retention.

It's very simple. Over time, we see the same thing time and time again, and with each "iteration" of events we see that it is not the Devs or the people at the workfloor where the segregation lies, and that feedback or even creative processes basically die off because of zero workflow on that level of decision making and vision execution in regards to feedback instruments.

That's not a case of "players do not do gamedesign" btw, please don't misunderstand. You are right, they don't. But, given the principalities of the product in gamedesign, you have created an alternate reality where the people who dive into it are by default challenged, and continue to challenge themselves, and their environment. That's a synergy instrument. Players don't do gamedesign, but they're the strongest selling point of the product through their actions, and through their communicative tendencies.

It's further reinforced by the visible presence of the usual pattern of technical processing in response to player comment topics. All due respect, but it takes customers on average a single to two expansions to spot and identify the patterns. And that's a growing factor on people sticking it out less long these days, regardless of what product niche they get to work and fly in :P

So, question remains, what do the people who make the calls do with the feedback, the feedback instruments, the visible differences in value patterns, as well as visible customer patterns across markets and product scopes. Yes, we see Devs working hard, and trying to communicate, but all of that's a passed station, as the communication is visibly off on very different points.

Alathus Christensen
Caldari
Blue Sun Enterprises
Blue Moon Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.18 15:06:00 - [770]
 

CCP,
I truly hope that what CCP Navigator has stated earlier in this thread is true, and that you do care about the player opinion. One more to add to the pile, incoming.

Remember when Alliance Tournament was on, and Torfi was wearing the shirt that said "Say No to Features!"? That's precisely what you're hearing from your playerbase. Let me clarify this - I've played the MMO since it's inception with MUD (Multi-User Dungeons), straight through to Ultima Online, and every other game in between. EVE players are RABID about this game. We love this game, just as much as you do, and we want it to live up to the brilliance we truly believe it to be capable of.

70%(roughly) of the EVE Playerbase cares very little for Incarna - it's seen as "fluff". It's a great idea, in my opinion, but that does not change the resounding statement echo'd time and time again in this quickly-growing threadnaught.

Please - and I mean this from the bottom of my shriveled up, light-deprived, MMO gamer heart.. Fix our game. Not "our" as in the players, either. "Our" as in yours and ours.. because so many of us want to be proud of EVE in *ALL* aspects, not just the ones we continue to pay for..

For some to be able to do what they love, and others not be able to, because of debilitating game play? Well, that just ain't fair. You wouldn't like it if I had a big arse chocolate cake and then told you that only Soundwave and Fallout could have any, and you couldn't - but maybe you could have a piece in 18 months.

Just sayin', guys.


Junko Sideswipe
Broski Enterprises
Elite Space Guild
Posted - 2010.07.18 15:14:00 - [771]
 

I'm loling at the sheer amount of butthurt in this thread. Every time I resubbed to EVE it was because I thought they finally brought out walking in stations, since 2004 when I first tried EVE I've been waiting. Nobody really cares about fleet fights, everyone just wants their sexy girl avatars, you guys are the really vocal fat guy minority, you're like the republican party LaughingLaughing. You know what they're going to work on when incarna finally comes out? They're going to put all their teams on fixing the lag inside the stations where all the newbies in their sexy girl avatars are going to spend their time cybering each other for isk; and while I'm making all dat isk off you fat neckbeards, I'm going to lol and lol and lol at all you haters still whining about your nonexistant fleet lag. srsly, u guys just mad.

LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

http://420.thrashbarg.net/batman-roller-skates-haters-gonna-hate.jpg

Image changed to link. Navigator

Pax Ratlin
Gallente
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2010.07.18 15:25:00 - [772]
 

null
Originally by: Le Skunk


Yet when SO MUCH feedback is given to you:

* So many forum posts in Assembly Hall
* So many debates in those threads
* So many hours days and weeks spent narrowing those ideas down
* So much time spent by the CSM narowing down these further to present to you

And you dont implent it. Whats the point of putting the effort in to use your own mechanisms to impact on what the player want the game to be - when there is clear cpp have not had the will to allocate sufficient resources to implement them for the last few years, and reportedly your not going to even look at implementing them for the next 2 years either.


Long quote cause i don't want it to seem like i'm selectivley quoting you, but feedback ISN'T 'we say you implment' (although probably not you, you just said the right thing for me to jump on :-) ) and i think a lot of people actually believe that idea.

Feedback is something to be taken into consideration.

Originally by: Le Skunk
The amusing thing I find - <snipage> - Is that most of the issues that are brought up and debated by new players - eager to take part in the great ccp democracy - in the assembly hall... ARE ALREADY AGREED AND SITTING ON THE CCP TO DO LIST. They have already run the whole gamut of the system you implemented and the ball has been in your court for years.

People are literaly wasting their time on there. And when it is clear you are wasting peoples time - they become angry.


Honestly this has less to do with ignoring feedback and more to do with how the forums and the assembly hall is organised. However you can't ignore the fact that, and i'll paraphrase you here And when they think you are wasting there time - they become angry.

Originally by: Alathus Christensen
70%(roughly) of the EVE Playerbase cares very little for Incarna - it's seen as "fluff". It's a great idea, in my opinion, but that does not change the resounding statement echo'd time and time again in this quickly-growing threadnaught.


Roughly 67.341% of the people i talk to disagree with your rough 70%, or to put it in l337 speak ... fraps or it never happened

But yes CCP have gone in the wrong direction lately, inregards to developing EVE, there not hugely off course but they are off course .. in my opinion.

Eve has more than enough toys to keep it's inhabitants occupied, way more than ANY other mmo out there, as far as i've played, it dosn't need anymore. It needs to fix the issues that already exsist ... both big and small.

I understand Avatars will bring in people, and that will bring in revenue and that in turn will directly benefit the development of EVE.

But if EVE gets a reputation, beyond it's playerbase, that it's broken, buggy and fixes are slow in being applied what is that going to do for revenue?

Vaneshi SnowCrash
Posted - 2010.07.18 15:31:00 - [773]
 

Originally by: Mira O'karr
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
Edited by: Bartholomeus Crane on 16/07/2010 20:40:09
Originally by: ihcn
Making AI to help test fleet fights sounds like just about the most interesting thing ever. Things like that make me wish I was graduating sooner.


Knowing a bit about Artificial Intelligence I can almost assure you that that "borderline sentient AI-testing automation feature" will be neither borderline sentient nor have proper AI in it. As for automation feature for testing: welcome to the '90ies, glad you could make it.

If CCP wants to disagree, fine, prove me wrong. I'd be happy to have a look at it. Almost free of charge.


hopeing for an AI that can not tell "hold" from "jump" and "align" from "warp"

should at least be entertaining to watch


Frankly if their 'AI' manages to form a fleet and warp to a gate without half of it wandering off in different directions I'll be impressed. That isn't a dig at CCP just that AI's in games tend to be rather stupid... even more stupid that the most stupid rookie you've ever seen in your fleet.

ceaon
Posted - 2010.07.18 15:43:00 - [774]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
How would you like it to be improved?

let ppl un-train skill and put the SP on what they want so i can really test stuff without losing time training skill

Selene D'Celeste
Caldari
The D'Celeste Trading Company
ISK Six
Posted - 2010.07.18 15:44:00 - [775]
 

Props to the devs for continuing to reply throughout this thread. Keep it up!

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.07.18 15:46:00 - [776]
 

Originally by: CCP Navigator
Incorrect. Your opinion does matter and we are grateful that you share it with us, just as other players have been doing.

Please believe me when I say that this post is not designed to be sarcastic or poking fun. We genuinely want to hear your feedback and it all matters.


When you say it "all matters" what exactly does that mean?

It looks like the people voting in the assembly hall do not matter and the issues forwarded by the CSM do not matter as well.
Well maybe they actually do matter but they definitely don't make a difference.

Time and again you say that you care, that you will look into issues (hey, maybe you actually do look into them and then walk right away againEmbarassed), that you will provide information, that you will follow up on something (like the "pretty graphs" for the mass test results; Tanis even copypasta'd that bull**** into the second post, including the weekday), that you will improve something.
That's all great and apparently a lot of people appreciate that.

But there are also a lot of people who see what you actually do (or more correctly: don't do)
Far too often you let those important things just slip, like you never heard about that.
Promises are made far too easily and you somehow appear to have grown quite comfortable with breaking those promises or just simply forgetting them.

There is a great example right here in this thread: The list of CSM issues that was worked on, that's an issue since the first CSM and you are still unable to provide that. Instead CCP guys come here all surprised the players don't know what's happening. This is not a new issue, you jsut forgot that you wanted to do something about that.


Start focussing on your actions.
Like the posting you quoted said: some people really only believe you when it actually happened.
And no amount of "but we really are awesome, because we really do care" will change that.

ceaon
Posted - 2010.07.18 15:51:00 - [777]
 

Originally by: Selene D'Celeste
Props to the devs for continuing to reply throughout this thread. Keep it up!

the barking dog is on a chain so the bear will move on

Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
Posted - 2010.07.18 15:54:00 - [778]
 

Edited by: Le Skunk on 18/07/2010 16:06:26
Originally by: Pax Ratlin
but feedback ISN'T 'we say you implment' (although probably not you, you just said the right thing for me to jump on :-) ) and i think a lot of people actually believe that idea.

Feedback is something to be taken into consideration.


I understand the meaning of feedback and fully aggree feedback to CCP should not be taken as a edict from the playerbase to DO THIS OR ELSE.

However, many issues have gone through the whole...

Assembly HAll --> CSM Meeting --> CSM+CCP meeting --> Agreed by ccp

... process and have been agreed directly by ccp.

Conversly - a lot of ideas were taken under consideration by CCP and discounted as not viable - this is fine and part of the feedback process as you describe it.

The main backlog list is not a list of things to be "taken under consideration". Its a list of feeback which CCP have ALREADY TAKEN UNDER CONSIDERATION and aggreed would be a good idea to implement.


Thats the point. All that is left is to allocate resources to deal with the agreed issue. And CCP have been unable or unwilling over the past few years to implement the changes, and have indicated they will not be allovating resources for at least two years in the future to do so.

So we get to the nub of the matter - whats the point in giving a company their desired "feedback" for 4 or 5 YEARS when they place such little value on it.

That why people are going mental.

And dont forget the whole CSM malarky was supposed to be about the playerbase going to iceland once a year and acting as enforcers to check CCP were not acting in dubious manners that they had been caught out doing in the past.

The CSM in its many iteration has gone from enforcer --> what features should be changed in game --> feeback comittee --> totaly ignored.

SKUNK

TLDR: The feedback process is done. CCP have agreed to a selection of the ideas put through by the playerbase. All that remains is for them to be implemented. They have not been implemented for 3 years and will not be for at least 2 more. Playerbase angry.

Bentahk Ma'Rokh
Posted - 2010.07.18 16:05:00 - [779]
 

Thanks for the info CCP. And there was me thinking they were just the proverbial 'Dangling Carrots' to keep us paying and hoping. However, there are still details missing, that im sure others are waiting for too. I.E. Dates? Or Even an estimated date? What about Fanfest 2011? (I couldnt come last year cos you didnt announce it soon enough for me to book holiday) Also whatever happend to "Atmospheric flight"? Whats going on with the Jovians and that whole sector of space they have?

Ix Forres
Caldari
Righteous Chaps
Posted - 2010.07.18 16:06:00 - [780]
 

I've made my points earlier in this thread and I don't intend to re-state them; I stand by what I said.

I do think that a lot of people who see people like me arguing and discussing the decisions CCP makes and calling us whiners need to look again. I'm sure there's a few people who whine for the sake of it, but certainly I argue and voice my opinion when I feel CCP has taken the wrong decision or direction because I care about EVE and what happens to it.

As an example, have a look at this graph. http://assets.talkunafraid.co.uk/2010/07/players.png

That graph shows average and peak player counts for TQ (average as in average for the day), plus 7-day rolling averages (code to generate it is here, but requires a data source).

What it shows clearly is that PI has not been a feature that has brought new people to the game. Or rather it has, but they've not stayed. We're now damn near back to pre-PI average and peak player counts. In terms of subscriptions, we of course cannot estimate or graph that data, since we don't have any idea what the numbers are right now. But using this metric, which I consider to be a fairly reliable one for looking into active subscriber indication, it's quite clear that if CCP was hoping to bring more players to the game and make it a more interesting game for people, they've failed to do that with PI. Having talked to people, quite a few were driven away by PI's time-consuming and badly-designed (from a user experience (UX) perspective) interface, not enticed to stay. People on the whole considered it a chore worse than mining and a huge amount of hassle.

Now, purely ignoring the issue of developer allocation for a moment, we're now saying that the same teams that produced PI is going to be responsible for the rest of EVE development for about a year or so. In my mind, that's just a little bit scary in terms of the implications to CCP's subscriber count. In the course of writing this post and discussing that graph in the eve-dev IRC channel, 3 people in there have mentioned they have cancelled their accounts recently. That, to me, is a concern.


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