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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.18 03:17:00 - [691]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick


Unfortunately, there's a reason the US is a republic (that is, a representative 'democracy' and not a full-fledged democracy. It is impossible to cater to the whims of everyone at all times without ****ing some people off.


I think you might have chosen a different example than one that completely contradicts your point. What is the CSM if it is not an example of representative democracy?

The fact that the US has a bloated, out-of-touch executive branch that is careening out of control, while spending ever more of its "customers" money on projects that they don't want and indeed often strongly oppose, which has thoroughly infiltrated and subverted the representative body hardly seems an example that should be emulated. Rather, it should be a strong warning that accumulating too much unaccountable executive power is highly toxic.

So much for politics. We were discussing business, and I believe you were about to clarify my confusion about how "I am baffled as to why you apparently think that this is a normal or good thing for a business to do. It's an infalliable recipe for disaster, as we have seen over and over again, a business that becomes more interested in providing what it thinks it's customers should want rather than finding out what they actually want will invariably fail, no matter how successful it used to be."

I work for a rather large company, and if I were to seriously propose your philosophy, I would certainly get some very strange looks*. Indeed, we are constantly advised in the clearest possible terms to adapt our ways of working to meet our customers needs. And we do. And we're doing rather well because of it.


*And by "strange looks" I mean that my colleagues would be puzzled as to why I had just thrown my job away when I could have saved everyone time and embarrassment by simply resigning.

Spades Slick
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.07.18 03:21:00 - [692]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
I work for a rather large company,


And suddenly I lose all desire to continue this.

Clearly, if you aren't completely bull****ting (which I somehow think you are, since I'm a professor of psychology*), you have it fixed in your head that you are right and everyone else is wrong because you're an expert™.

Yes, CCP clearly has no one with any business sense in their employment. Don't comment on that, of course you think so, you've made that abundantly clear.

*and by professor of psychology, I mean someone who actually has no background in psychological studies and is just making things up to sound like he does, because the internet allows for that freedom.

Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2010.07.18 03:26:00 - [693]
 

Originally by: CCP Casqade

Originally by: Jason1138

btw, while downloading this last patch for TQ i had an error and the repair tool erased all of my saved settings here on TQ while fixing it, including all of my ship fits, and also changed my Sisi folder back to a TQ folder. so if that's a known issue that's not helping your Sisi participation either.



I'm sure that the guys working on the repair tool would be happy to receive a bug report about this.



They may be happy to hear the story, but they are unlikely to hear it.

Any problem without perfect reproduction steps is filtered. Instead of building evidence gradually aggregating bug reports coming from different sources in order to finally pinpoint the steps leading to a problem the bughunters just throw away any report not containing the whole story, with the side effect of training people not to bother bug reporting.

Which mean that complex problems like desync, station guns firing on people without them having timers etc got relentlessly filtered in the past, shielding the devs of the reality of the situation. Ironically enough it's forum threadnaught that often compelled CCP to have a closer look at the situation, which for people looking objectively at the situation means that going straight to the forum without bothering to fill a bug report is the most efficient choice.

Sad but true.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.18 03:32:00 - [694]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Malcanis
I work for a rather large company,


And suddenly I lose all desire to continue this.

Clearly, if you aren't completely bull****ting (which I somehow think you are, since I'm a professor of psychology*), you have it fixed in your head that you are right and everyone else is wrong because you're an expert™.

Yes, CCP clearly has no one with any business sense in their employment. Don't comment on that, of course you think so, you've made that abundantly clear.

*and by professor of psychology, I mean someone who actually has no background in psychological studies and is just making things up to sound like he does, because the internet allows for that freedom.


I work for Unilever (I make no claim to any kind of authority there; I'm a pretty low level employee. They say to a man: go, and I goeth.) They are a rather large company. They do make a point of listening to their customers. We are constantly told that it's important for us to adapt to our customers' needs rather than trying to make them adapt to ours.

I really am confused as to why you find any of the above contentious or extraordinary. What business are you in where dictating to your customers what they want is normal practice? Do you work for the government?

Extremely Sticky
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing
DRACONIAN COVENANT
Posted - 2010.07.18 03:58:00 - [695]
 

Edited by: Extremely Sticky on 18/07/2010 04:00:04
After reading that blog, it feels to me that CCP is very focused on getting new blood into the game and forgetting about the old timers that have been with the game for a long time.

Incarna- lots of new blood some old blood

Polishing/fixing- keeps old blood and bring some new blood

To me ccp is selling out and becoming like any other mom. They all have full bodied characters, so ccp is bending to the pressure to join that herd instead of concentrating on other things and making incarna a side objective.

Really, what does walking around in a station bring us? Social interaction while looking at a full body? All the interaction happens in space! People don't need bodies to sit and chat in a station.

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.18 04:00:00 - [696]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Spades Slick
Edited by: Spades Slick on 18/07/2010 02:36:26
Originally by: Malcanis
It used to be that CCP communicated it's vision of what EVE was and where it was going. Now we have no idea what you think it should be, or what you think it's going to be. And we've become increasingly sure that you're pretty uninterested in what we think it should be, because, well, when did you last ask us?


Is this a troll post?



No, it's deeply sincere. I'm not sure why you should think quoting examples of CCP making changes without any consultation or feedback are an argument against it, either.

Am I - or even the person you incorrectly assume me to be, since I want Incarna - not entitled to like a change while disliking the way it was enacted?

I made it quite clear with the quote selection I made. You say:
Quote:
It used to be that CCP communicated it's vision of what EVE was and where it was going. Now we have no idea what you think it should be, or what you think it's going to be.

This is a fallacy. As I said in my post that you apparently missed, they have clearly stated that they are making a paradigm shift from spaceships to immersing us into the EVE universe. Again, like it or not, this is a change like many others, made with some people supporting it and some people against it. The world keeps turning.
Quote:
And we've become increasingly sure that you're pretty uninterested in what we think it should be, because, well, when did you last ask us?

You seem to think that CCP has been, from the beginning, always listening to everyone's will and only then making a decision. In reality, while minor things might be taken into consideration, their major paradigm shifts are enacted without listening to players -- not considering these suggestions, at any rate, just politely listening. This is where the hivemind bit comes in -- you (the hivemind, that is) do not own EVE. You do not make the decisions for CCP. You, the lowsec-squatters and nullsec/WH residents, are not the only people who play EVE; you, the people who hate the idea of having an avatar, are not the sole representation of the player base.

It's a bitter pill to swallow, but it is reality when you're dealing with a for-profit company. You are not their only customers.


Originally by: Spades Slick
Unfortunately (depending on your perspective), there's a reason the US is a republic (that is, a representative 'democracy' and not a full-fledged democracy.) It is impossible to cater to the whims of everyone at all times without ****ing some people off. I'm sure even 'obvious' fixes -- rocket re-statting, assault ship buffing, whatever the kids are asking for these days -- would only cause people to start up their own campaign of "OMG CCP YOU PROMISED INCARNA WHY ARE YOU NOT WORKING ON IT!!>?!??!?!?!?/1/1/?!" Similarly, pushing on with Incarna causes people to go "OMG WHAT ABOUT THE BROKEN ROCKETS AND TEH FW AND ASSAULT SHIPS THERES NO BALANCE NOOOOO!!!!!1!", etc. Try to please everyone, and you end up pleasing nobody.

And yes, CSM is like our senators/representatives. Consider CCP's 'dismissal' of them to be an Executive Order -- all legislature is out, we're doing what the Overlords want first, then we can go back to the routine grandstanding for one small thing or another. I realize you would pull this out if I brought up our (I'm assuming you're American, excuse me if I'm wrong) government; just consider the current state that of martial law. There is no indicator whatsoever that it is not temporary beyond unsubstantiated rumor-mongering and speculation.



I must say, your posts are incredibly amusing. They really shouldn't go to waste like that.

Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2010.07.18 04:02:00 - [697]
 

Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 18/07/2010 04:05:28
Originally by: Malcanis

I really am confused as to why you find any of the above contentious or extraordinary. What business are you in where dictating to your customers what they want is normal practice? Do you work for the government?


First, there are many cases in business where if you find yourself in the correct position, you can do whatever you want and tell your current base of customers to shove it. It's not the best practice but if you either know they will not leave you, or can depend on enough new customers to replace them and whatever decision it is your making is saving you assloads/has potential to make more than ever.... there it is.

Second you are falsely understanding CCPs position and the situation overall. They aren't trying to "dictate to their customers what they want" at all (wtf where did you get that?) they are gambling on appealing to both different and new customers (those that care more for whatever it is they will be selling vs a polished large-scale pvp game. ie:bears).
They are wagering that they will make MORE money on the different/new people that will stay/arrive than what they will lose to people that actually put their money where their mouth is and leave (given it's an mmo people have invested much time in, it's a reasonable bet)

So while I'm sure your company does great at whatever it is they do you need to understand motivations and what makes good business sense varies not just from business to business but company to company and immediate situation to immediate situation. There isn't a 'bad business policy' you can imagine that you couldn't go find being a smart move for some company somewhere.

So yeah, less business b.s. and fifty cent words and more actual (sensible) discussion of the topic at hand.

occyxxx
Posted - 2010.07.18 04:14:00 - [698]
 

The player base is without a doubt the most loyal I've ever seen.

99% of the bugs and massive errors people will deal with. Lag/blackscreen/fleet issues are not.. these are not "bugs" it is a broken game.. more people are scared of what the node will do to them if they "jump" than what the enemy will do...and that is so broken it's not even funny.

Poorly made "new content" is what kills games. Think of games like Dark age of Camelot..perfect/ultimate PVP focused game.. released new content...ended up with a buggy game.. continued to add content to hide the bugs and then WoW was released and it was game over......

EVE might already be dead if something on the same lines is released soon.. but to wait 18 months before you really focus on the problems is the signed and stamped order of execution.


LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.07.18 04:19:00 - [699]
 

Players say you are working on too much new stuff and not enough on making the existing stuff actually work.

The response is, na uh... we spend a ton on development.

Then we get this dev blog showing that about 100 are working on new stuff, about 7 working on fixing some unfinished stuff, and 15 working on a giant fleet fight test tool.

Oh, silly us for thinking you are working on new stuff instead of fixing existing stuff.


We want you to work of FW... nah, we're not going to do that. We want you to work on getting more people into low sec. Nah, we're not going to do that. We want you to work on a mechanic to limit fleet fight size,. Nah, not going to work on that.

Hello you idiot players... We don't care what the existing players want. We'rte too busy trying to bring in more customers!!!!

Shinzui Khan
Posted - 2010.07.18 04:20:00 - [700]
 

Hello all.

I just want to throw my two cents into the pile along with everyone else.

I personally , am looking forward to Incarna or how ever you spell it. I think that it would add a neat little extra path to Eve Online. ONLY if it does actually add things such as being able to open up a stahl/shop inside of the station that people can visit and buy goods/order goods/sell goods to you/or whatever. More social interaction in a mmorpg (massively MULTIPLAYER ONLINE rpg) is always a good thing. As long as it is implemented properly. Also , just me personally , I think a very neat idea for such a thing would be that if lets say Alliance A takes over Alliance B's system and station and all that good stuff during pvp fights , then they get to ramsack those shops/stahls and pillage everything! (Not even the null sec pvp'ers could argue with such a nice feature , who could possibly say no to more surprisebuttsex in our beloved video game? and the high sec people cant complain since those stations are NPC ones. Maybe you could also incorporate the faction warfare crowd into that mess. Like if they take over a complex or system or whatever for their faction , maybe they should get to steal stuff from the faction they took it from. stuff like bpo's , ships , etc etc (not the capital bpo's and what not cause i think thatd be a bit much))

Dust ? I really don't care. I own a playstation 3 , an xbox 360 , two wii's and even got a nintendo 64 , but will i ever play Dust? nope. If i am going to play an FPS it's going to be one of the usual suspects. Besides doing drive by's on hookers while riding a moped is so much funner (grand theft auto).

Now as far as the issues go with the game , what some call "bugs" , the one and only main thing that is really effecting me in more than one way is the lack of ability to have fleet pvp in null sec. Currently I don't have any toons in null sec , however I am a player from 2004 (first ever alliance was guess what? Goonswarm.) and I have very fond memories of roaming around with alliance/corp members , or doing gate camps at the low sec to null sec entry point , and even running a massive fleet over to someone elses territory and destroying one of their shinies. However at this very moment , and for the most recent past , these such things are pretty much un-attainable which takes all of the fun out of null sec. Yes there is other reasons to be in null sec , such as better rats , anomalies , plexes , mining , moon goo , etc etc etc , but let's be quite honest here , even as a miner , i mine to build things. However if my alliance/corp/blue list can't go out there to lose and kill ships on a regular basis , then I am not making any isk either because those same people aren't coming back home in their pods or whats left of their pods and replacing their losses. So the problem with that is this exactly:

Exclamation I can't have good peeveepee against enemies(or even friends cause shooting blues is so much funner than shooting reds/neuts) due to black screen of death and the various other issues.

Exclamationmy industry toons basically sit in station spinning ships because I can not move any product because nothing is being lost/killed/blown up/randomly surprisebuttsexed by some random entity

Now on to customer service. Here very recently I had an issue where I was attempting to start one of my older accounts back up. However to my surprise the account had been hacked/taken over by someone. Sadly the only reason I found out about it was because i filed a petition concerning the account. Now the problem here is that it took the two GM's working on the issue , 7 days to give me back my account (i supplied tons of proof it was mine , including gtc's i sold from the account because i never delete my emails). Which honestly annoyed me to no end. In the end i did get my account back and got things that were missing (yes CCP's logs showed it as well) but in my opinion it taking a week to do so was crap.

To be continued..

Shinzui Khan
Posted - 2010.07.18 04:32:00 - [701]
 

As far as this entire thread goes , I am personally happy to see so many different CCP employees in here replying to people's posts and trying to set things straight and getting ideas and everything else.

How many companies actually have as much contact with their customers as CCP does when it comes to the mmo world? I personally haven't seen any. And I have been playing mmo's since 1999 during the Everquest and Ultima Online days, hell I have played EQ , EQ2 , UO , LoTRO , WoW , AoC , Warhammer , Shaiya , Aion , Lineage 1 and 2 , and countless others. How many of those companies would have allowed us to respond to a thread like all of us have and not give us an instant ban or instantly deleted our post/reply/thread ? I would personally say it takes quite a nice set of balls to allow your customers to basically thrash you on your own website. (and yes i said thrash , not trash.).

The one and only issue i see in this thread as far as all of this crap goes , is the fact that CCP Zulu(park) hasn't made one reply or comment or anything in it yet. While I can appreciate all of the CCP employees in this thread that have , I think it'd be a little more helpful if not fitting for Zulu to make an appearance and make a few replies as well.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.07.18 04:37:00 - [702]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
CCP Blaze wrote a dev blog recently about the client performance improvements we made in Tyrannis.


If clinet performance got so much better, then how come everyone is getting podded so much more.

In the last year, I've been podded 16 time. 9 of those in the last 6 weeks since tyrannis.

It isn't bubbles as I spend most of my time in FW low sec. I'm back at station before I ever show up in my pod. I can't count how many others I've heard complain about this as well.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.07.18 04:43:00 - [703]
 

CCP reminds me of the company I work for.

Our product managers openly admit that they are far more interesed in signing new customers than addressing the concerns of our existing customers.

We're in a release planning meeting and the dev manager wants to allocate a couple developers to addressing our priority bugs. The product manager says we don't need to fix bugs, until the customers force us int oa code red (they're going to stop paying unless we deliver a fix).

We complain to his boss (vp of product management). The answer we get is, too f'n bad. It is his policy that stuff that will get new customers is far, far more important than something that existing customers want.

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.18 04:46:00 - [704]
 

Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia

They are wagering that they will make MORE money on the different/new people that will stay/arrive than what they will lose to people that actually put their money where their mouth is and leave (given it's an mmo people have invested much time in, it's a reasonable bet)


The thing is, other companies tried exactly that. I remember similar discussions during SWG's downfall, and similar points raised.
It didn't quite help them..

The problem with trying to acquire a new demographic and phasing out the old one isn't just the bad press and word of mouth from the people driven out. The problem is that if people weren't interested in your service in the first place, it's unlikely that changing the game later on will work in acquiring them. You either make a new game with your new target demographic or build on your strengths (or both).

The thing that worries me personally is that I've seen other companies with more financial backing basically kill off a working cash cow by trying to change the game.
CCP is destabilizing their loyal and old customer base while compensating with marketing. Subscriptions are artificially inflated that way and immediately drop some time after an expansion. It's a rat race of feature creep to keep the subs from decreasing and it's not sustainable. The list of broken features is growing steadily.

I guess you're aware that acquiring a new customer is much more expensive than keeping an existing one. Eve has had a healthy, steady growth until two years ago, showing not even a sign of an inflated subscription base. CCP needs to return to the healthy growth again instead of counting on straw fires.
It's deeply worrying that CCP seemed to have abandoned treating Eve as a service, and instead market it like a traditional game, shelling out new "games" (features) to fuel a marketing machine.

Dolm De'Mourne
Posted - 2010.07.18 04:59:00 - [705]
 

Originally by: Batolemaeus
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia

They are wagering that they will make MORE money on the different/new people that will stay/arrive than what they will lose to people that actually put their money where their mouth is and leave (given it's an mmo people have invested much time in, it's a reasonable bet)


The thing is, other companies tried exactly that. I remember similar discussions during SWG's downfall, and similar points raised.
It didn't quite help them..

The problem with trying to acquire a new demographic and phasing out the old one isn't just the bad press and word of mouth from the people driven out. The problem is that if people weren't interested in your service in the first place, it's unlikely that changing the game later on will work in acquiring them. You either make a new game with your new target demographic or build on your strengths (or both).

The thing that worries me personally is that I've seen other companies with more financial backing basically kill off a working cash cow by trying to change the game.
CCP is destabilizing their loyal and old customer base while compensating with marketing. Subscriptions are artificially inflated that way and immediately drop some time after an expansion. It's a rat race of feature creep to keep the subs from decreasing and it's not sustainable. The list of broken features is growing steadily.

I guess you're aware that acquiring a new customer is much more expensive than keeping an existing one. Eve has had a healthy, steady growth until two years ago, showing not even a sign of an inflated subscription base. CCP needs to return to the healthy growth again instead of counting on straw fires.
It's deeply worrying that CCP seemed to have abandoned treating Eve as a service, and instead market it like a traditional game, shelling out new "games" (features) to fuel a marketing machine.


I'm missing something here. How is eve being changed by incarna other than the addition of being able to walk/do stuff in a station? Won't everything else be the same as it is now? Or is the argument more on the development bandwidth not being primarily on the current game? Wouldn't a new feature that doesn't draw upon already existing game mechanisms require greater bandwidth? And have they not confirmed that despite this they do still have people working on the issues in the game as is? I'm somewhat missing what everyone is so angry about.

Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2010.07.18 05:08:00 - [706]
 

Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 18/07/2010 05:14:02
Originally by: Dolm De'Mourne
Originally by: Batolemaeus
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia

They are wagering that they will make MORE money on the different/new people that will stay/arrive than what they will lose to people that actually put their money where their mouth is and leave (given it's an mmo people have invested much time in, it's a reasonable bet)


The thing is, other companies tried exactly that. I remember similar discussions during SWG's downfall, and similar points raised.
It didn't quite help them..

The problem with trying to acquire a new demographic and phasing out the old one isn't just the bad press and word of mouth from the people driven out. The problem is that if people weren't interested in your service in the first place, it's unlikely that changing the game later on will work in acquiring them. You either make a new game with your new target demographic or build on your strengths (or both).

The thing that worries me personally is that I've seen other companies with more financial backing basically kill off a working cash cow by trying to change the game.
CCP is destabilizing their loyal and old customer base while compensating with marketing. Subscriptions are artificially inflated that way and immediately drop some time after an expansion. It's a rat race of feature creep to keep the subs from decreasing and it's not sustainable. The list of broken features is growing steadily.

I guess you're aware that acquiring a new customer is much more expensive than keeping an existing one. Eve has had a healthy, steady growth until two years ago, showing not even a sign of an inflated subscription base. CCP needs to return to the healthy growth again instead of counting on straw fires.
It's deeply worrying that CCP seemed to have abandoned treating Eve as a service, and instead market it like a traditional game, shelling out new "games" (features) to fuel a marketing machine.


I'm missing something here. How is eve being changed by incarna other than the addition of being able to walk/do stuff in a station? Won't everything else be the same as it is now? Or is the argument more on the development bandwidth not being primarily on the current game? Wouldn't a new feature that doesn't draw upon already existing game mechanisms require greater bandwidth? And have they not confirmed that despite this they do still have people working on the issues in the game as is? I'm somewhat missing what everyone is so angry about.


first, i agree with everything batolemaeus said. i was only clarifying the issue not defending the decision.

to answer you dolm the issue is that there is SO much in eve that is needing looked at. Performance for any size of fights is TERRIBLE since the turn of the year with no fix (or even hint ccp understands the issue) in sight.

Take your pick from the thread on the dozens/more other improvements/fixes/balances needed. Many have been waiting years.


From balancing to running the game to making content be what it should be... CCP has a habit of releasing things in a half-assed way and never looking back at them (though when they release it they ASSURE you they are still working on it... just wait a couple more months or SOONtm)

For the most part we do all love the game as it is (basically speaking) and want and understand CCP needing to explore more for Eve and more for themselves as a company.

Concern is with the above maintenance issues I mentioned vs the resources going to new development (Incarna/WiS you mentioned) their new console game (Dust) and new mmo (World of Darkness). Walking in stations is cool, but it isn't internet spaceships, Dust may link to eve but it isn't and won't be eve.

We expect an even balance of priorities and resource application... a true "Commitment to Excellence" for Eve content, we think instead we are simply getting the short end of the stick.

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.18 05:15:00 - [707]
 

Originally by: Dolm De'Mourne

I'm missing something here. How is eve being changed by incarna other than the addition of being able to walk/do stuff in a station? Won't everything else be the same as it is now? Or is the argument more on the development bandwidth not being primarily on the current game? Wouldn't a new feature that doesn't draw upon already existing game mechanisms require greater bandwidth? And have they not confirmed that despite this they do still have people working on the issues in the game as is? I'm somewhat missing what everyone is so angry about.


What is currently working on Eve is the equivalent of a skeleton crew.

If CCP was interested in retaining customers, the best way to do so would be to keep them happy by continually grabbing a broken feature or two and update them. It does not require lots of resources, but spreads love and is a sign of good will. It is one of the most cost effective ways to keep getting money from people.

Instead, as highlighted by the CSM Minutes and this devblog, resources are heavily invested elsewhere. Resources are being spent not on retaining, but on acquiring a new demographic. That's where I object, since I don't belong to the new demographic and instead see my gameplay experience deteriorate at a high pace. I had already quit when a glimpse brought me back for a month of w-space, because it's the only thing that I enjoy that hasn't been broken yet. But even w-space is showing signs of neglect, which is sad considering how much effort was put in and how much it could be improved considerably with minimal effort.


That's what people are sad about. The parts of the game they love are getting worse or even unplayable at the cost of marketing and other projects, because CCP is neglecting their strong and distinguishing selling point. There are literally dozens of PvE centric mmos out there with avatars. There are even more console shooters. There are only very few games that have the sort of player interaction Eve has, and this is the part CCP is neglecting.

Jordan Musgrat
Convergent
Posted - 2010.07.18 05:41:00 - [708]
 

Thanks for the responses guys. I think it would make all of us feel alot better, especially on the fleet lag front, if you would once in a while give us updates on what you're looking into. The more information you give us, the more we'll believe you that you're actually trying to fix it. Maybe a dev post somewhere at the end of every week? Detailing what you did, what you gleaned from the sisi tests, what code you looked at, etc. It would be very helpful, and wouldn't take much time at all from you. It would also be like 95% more communication than we're getting right now :) A little can go a long way.

Hoinus
Gallente
Duty Free Exchange
Posted - 2010.07.18 05:54:00 - [709]
 

All the people complaining about too much team working on Incarna and that it is not 3x as important needs to realize Incarna is pretty much adding another "game" to this and is probably much more work than adding a few feature to something that exist already.

Epitrope
The Citadel Manufacturing and Trade Corporation
Posted - 2010.07.18 06:03:00 - [710]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

One, Epitrope, has commented in this very thread that he has essentially given up on developing his very good, widely used application because he's been stonewalled by CCP for a year now. Other API app developers tell a similar story. Here is his post. The telling quote comes from the end:

Originally by: Epitrope

I don't understand this closed, everything-must-be-secret attitude by the decision-makers. They haven't, that I'm aware of, ever explained why they have this attitude, or even made clear who "they" are.





Hi. I didn't create EVE Metrics; Ix Forres did. I have nothing to do with it aside from being a happy user. From his post, he sounds pretty fed up, and reasonably so.

I'm willing to accept at face value the statement that there is no regret over the API or the data export. That doesn't, of course, translate to excitement over it, either -- I find the fact that no one will accept credit (or responsibility, or blame...) for working on the API recently to be a bit telling. Combine that with what seems to be an extreme shortage of dev time, and the result seems indistinguishable from an actual hostile attitude.

What CCP needs is another developer, like Garthagk, who is enthusiastic about the API and is willing and able to work on it full-time (without reinventing the wheel by changing everything over to SOAP or whatever). There is so much cool data locked up right now that we could do so much with, but we can't get to it. Instead, we get broken promises like EVE Gate being built on top of the same API that the players can use. It's so frustrating to wait and wait and wait (and pay and pay and pay...) and get so little back.

Jada Maroo
Posted - 2010.07.18 06:04:00 - [711]
 

For any CCPeep who'd care to respond, I have a concern.

My concern is Incarna, and what you hope to achieve with it. I love the idea of Incarna and very much look forward to it and I think initially it's going to draw a lot of interest from new blood. But that initial interest is going to be completely squandered if at the same time you don't drastically overhaul the interface and make it more intuitive to players. An awful lot of the new people you get are going to be immediately turned off by the clunky right-click driven submenus menus and other unuser-friendly aspects of the game (drone controls are especially annoying).

Please don't think you can introduce walking in stations and simply overlay the current interface on top of it and be successful. It won't be, and if you think about what you're trying to do and who you're trying to appeal to I think you'll realize that.

I'd ask that you release an Incarna devblog and maybe address some useability concerns so we have some idea what to expect.

Wintron Auto
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.18 06:10:00 - [712]
 

Edited by: Wintron Auto on 18/07/2010 06:38:43
*** THIS JUST IN ***

STOP THE PESSES!

TODAY'S TOP HEADLINE: CCP STILL DOESN'T GET IT!

*edit* because I perhaps could have been clearer, let me explicitly state that I, like I'm guessing many other players, had been trying to hold on to the glass-half-full notion for a few years that, while CCP was constantly releasing other little bits of tinfoil for our game - like remodeling pods, really, how important actually was that? - they had also secretly been laboring to fix the maddening little bugs and "features" that were driving us up the wall on a daily basis. We labor under stupid little glitches like our "selected item" pane sticking up so when we warp to a gate and our range is 750m, the pane thinks I'm still 3500m away, and thus won't let me click the jump button. Or having our overview stick up or show us bugs or show friends as neutrals. Or this or that or the other thing, on and on and on. Every day. And they won't even permit 3rd party alteration, so not only do we have the worst UI ever, we can't go and make it better ourselves.

I'd just blindly assumed that CCP would eventually get around to the things that were driving me up the wall, that they had a guy locked in a basement room all by himself with a flashlight trying to dig through their code and type in a new number for (I guess I might as well say it, though I don't care, how long could it take, 20 minutes to fix?) rocket explosion speed. Or whatever. And that he was almost done.

But no. Now we find out, all of a sudden, that not only have they had few to no people working on most of this s---, but that they don't plan to change that for 18-24 months AT LEAST. Like a third of their man hours are going back into the game from where *all* their subscription money comes from. See what's bugging me? I gotta say, I'm pretty mad. So maybe I should quit my remaining subscriptions and resub one for a month in 2 years (wouldn't want to check back in 18 months because then they'll only have started working on it, maybe) to see whether they've fixed anything that's driving me crazy *today*.

And then they post up a damage control dev blog to smooth it over, like they don't get it. ARE YOU KIDDING?

Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
Posted - 2010.07.18 06:27:00 - [713]
 

Edited by: Zendoren on 18/07/2010 06:38:56
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
I agree, we could definitely have some cool ways of illustrating what's going on. I'm not entirely sure a public bugtracker would have a positive impact, but communicating all our fixes more clearly and especially changes brought on by the CSM has a lot of positive potential. You said it exactly right: "get it out in the open".


Than update the "In Testing" page in the EVE insider section for starters!

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
but I'm not entirely sure how much we're allowed to communicate about the winter release and until I know that, I'd prefer to not talk about it in details.


This was not an issue back in the day when the "In development" page was up-to-date. Just this week you guys deleted the page totally! If the PR people did their gobs and updated these pages with information that was ok-ed for public released, most of this "CCP is becoming introverted" would not be an issue! Personally; I see the issue stemming from the lack of due diligence from the PR department, bad website design (your main forum of communication) and the general anxiety in releasing information to the public from CCP employees as to not raise hopes to only dash them latter down the road.

A proper PR department would alleviate all this by authorizing information that can be released to the public. A clear lack of accountability can be seen in this area as evident by the problems outlined in this thread. Please don't take this personally as it is only an opinion.

BTW, I would love to help out but it seems that my ISD application has yet to be processed. To save some face I will not say how long it has been!!!!!!!



Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.18 06:29:00 - [714]
 

Massive News

Seems word is rapidly spreading about CCP's "commitment to excellence" (you're smiling as you read that aren't you?). In the past if enough screaming was done CCP would reverse course. However IMO since incarna is required to develop technology for WoD MMO (IMO it's actually all about that game) I'm betting there is little chance of that this time.

Zso Sahal
Minmatar
Multiverse Academy
Posted - 2010.07.18 06:29:00 - [715]
 

CCP,

What will it take for you to cut the Incarna team in half, and reassign those 35 people to CSM issues? Flying elephants? I'll go staple wings on dumbo if that'll get it going....

Psihius
Caldari
Anarchist Dawn
U N K N O W N
Posted - 2010.07.18 06:56:00 - [716]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
From the technical perspective, or rather technical management perspective, it's about ownership. A team that takes on a feature must take ownership for that feature from start to finish (and "finish" is a very vague term here since it includes monitoring the feature long after it's live on TQ). I focus on my programmers' ownership and they know that I will come many months or years later with something that needs to be fixed and then the code better be architectured well, clearly written and properly documented. Very Happy

That's certanlly a healfy thing to do :)
As CCP Soundwawe has been writing, you have changed some things in the proceess, you start to interate on things more that one release and teams are free to choose on what to work. I understand it correctly? Rolling Eyes I hope you get to the POS, miningm empire & lowsec related things after Incarna - that part of EVE wasn't looked at with a microscope as long, as I play myself :)

Originally by: CCP Explorer
This was a topic of a significant technical debate within CCP. We ended up with a dual-layer EVE Gate (backend and presentation layer) with the EVE Gate backend communicating with special EVE Gate nodes in the EVE Server cluster via XML RPC. The long term plan is to rewrite the EVE Gate backend in Stackless Python and simply run the backend as a part of the cluster. A part of the network work in Incarna is to add the necessary web framework components to the EVE Framework to make that possible.

I have read initial devblogs, there was some details on the architecture. Good luck with the Python :) And the .NET for the WEB part as I understand was chosen because you allready work with MS software? :)

mrpapageorgio
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.18 07:11:00 - [717]
 

As I have zero interest in any of the new content being worked on (Dust/Incarna), i'll concentrate on another feature that was supposedly being worked on.

When the hell are we going to see a new capital jump effect? It's been almost a year since a dev said it was being worked on, and we have yet to hear even a single word about it since. Are there even any devs at all actively working on this or should I just be content that i'll soon be able to walk around in a game about flying spaceships?

J'J'J'Jita
Ch'Ch'Ch'Chia Corp
Posted - 2010.07.18 07:21:00 - [718]
 

this is interesting:
Quote:
CCP are changing the process so that eventually, solar systems can be moved live to dedicated nodes if the number of users goes above a certain level.


I guess it partly answers my question from January, here:
http://www.eveonline.com/iNgameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1259969
Quote:
What are the technical reasons preventing CCP from using MPI bindings for Python to dynamically transfer a system to a free, reinforced node once it is detected that load on a given many-system-node is rising due to large alliance-versus-alliance fleet actions?

In a brief google search I saw that CCP at least investigated using MPI in 2007 and 2008, presumably to replace some internal communications scheme already in use.


Anyway, since devs are reading this, I'm wondering if you're still using windows server, I guess? No linux on the cluster? For communication between nodes, can you say which implementation of MPI for python you use (if you use MPI)? That is, if your in-house version of stackless doesn't do this itself. There are a few different projects out there.

Good luck.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2010.07.18 07:23:00 - [719]
 

Originally by: MailDeadDrop
Originally by: CCPZulu
Please, also keep in mind that our developers are constantly fixing bugs - small ones, big ones, important ones and obvious ones. But also bugs you‘ve never experienced, never seen and never heard of. The EVE code base is as big as the universe itself and we‘re constantly engaged in cleanup and backend work that the players will never notice unless something goes horribly wrong.

Bolded the part that should stop now. Stop fixing things that no one has ever experienced, and instead use those developer man-hours to fix things that people have complained about loudly for some time now. I mean, really. This is basic project triage and prioritization.


Unless the reason that players never see the bugs is that they're bugs in pre-release code that get killed by the dev teams checking their own work or by QA. I can guarantee, as bad as you think the reactor exploit or fleet lag is, CCP probably kills a bigger bug every day. It's simply the nature of product development - first drafts have all kinds of problems, whether it's a first draft of a novel or a new game feature. And let's not forget, there'll be plenty of bugs out there where they're not seen by many people, but they're easy fixes that someone nails over a cup of coffee. It's a bit of a silly rhetorical point, of course - it's nothing special to fix bugs, it seems to be at least half of what programming is - but it's perfectly valid and in no way indicative of poor management. Frankly, the only problem here is that it doesn't happen more.

Originally by: Dolm De'Mourne
I'm missing something here. How is eve being changed by incarna other than the addition of being able to walk/do stuff in a station? Won't everything else be the same as it is now? Or is the argument more on the development bandwidth not being primarily on the current game? Wouldn't a new feature that doesn't draw upon already existing game mechanisms require greater bandwidth? And have they not confirmed that despite this they do still have people working on the issues in the game as is? I'm somewhat missing what everyone is so angry about.


The whole point is that Eve isn't being changed by Incarna. It'll still be the same old three-legged mutt we love anyways. CCP's marketing of Eve is what's changing. Eve used to grow in a very natural, smooth way - look at the subscriber curve(see QEN Q1 2010, page 8), it was basically a straight line ascending until Empyrean Age(spring '08), which is when it first really levelled off. From launch to Trinity, Eve gained customers by being Eve. From EA to present, Eve has gained customers with expansions - between expansions, it's been flat or even negative. The change is obvious and profound. People don't start to play Eve for Eve any more, they want to play for the new shiny. CCP will take that as proof that they need to focus on shiny if they want to grow, players will take that as proof that there's nothing but shiny left to look forward to. But what I find remarkable is that they didn't used to need shiny to grow. Any of the good expansions of old barely made a blip, because people wanted to play Eve. They don't want to play Eve any more. I don't care what the short-run subscriber counts are, that's a goddamned tragedy, and it's a cancer on this game's long term health. Right now, they're trying to treat that cancer with funny hats. Me, I think it's time that they cut it out and started trying to make the game healthy instead.

Janus Nightmare
Gallente
ECP Incorporated
Posted - 2010.07.18 07:23:00 - [720]
 

Just my two cents here on a couple of issues. First, I get the impression that people believe the CSM should have the authority to tell the CCP teams of developers and executives what to do with the game. That, to my knowledge, has never been the case, and in my opinion quite frankly shouldn't be. My understanding is that the CSM has been, and always will be, a feedback channel for the developers. One of many sources of feedback which includes this forum. That, I think, is the issue that CCP needs to address with regards to the CSM, however smarter, more politically savvy people than I would be required to solve that particular problem as I'd just tell all the haters to **** off and be done with it Very Happy

Secondly is the assumption that CCP has, judging by a number of posts in this thread and throughout the forums, given up on "fixing" Eve or at least devoting large numbers of resources to fixing game bugs. The fallacy in this is the belief that throwing more devs at a problem will magically result in fixes when that is simply not the case. Thinking that vast numbers of devs concentrating on bug hunting and repairing will result in a positive outcome is like expecting the government to fix education shortfalls by simply throwing more money at the problem without providing guidance on how to use it.

Yes, there are problems within the game. Large fleet lag and blackscreening is a major one. Unfortunately, the major problems within the game are, to be redundant, extremely unique to Eve because of the unique server architecture that Eve has. My argument is not that these issues need don't need to take priority, because they do, but I can't help but think that the solution many people want is an instant fix that quite frankly would require the resources of a company like Google. And that leads me to my next point.

Eve is, to be rather blunt, a niche game. It's design, as is, will never appeal to the mass market the way a shooter like Halo will, or even a brand-name game like STO with dumbed down controls, lazy crafting systems, and lots of pew pew with no real penalty for getting your ass kicked. Eve is a game for a special kind of gamer, dare I say nerd, who finds solace in beating the odds, working the social and technical worlds to come out on top. It is, in a very real sense, a game for hackers, scammers, and cutthroats which does not and probably will never have mass market appeal.

We, the current players, thrive in a game like this. The problem is that there are so few of us (let's face it, even half a million active accounts is paltry) that CCP is and always will be limited in its resources unless it finds ways to attract many, many more paying subscribers. And that is the key item that I think many in these forums are missing.

Incarna and Dust are not attempts at dumbing down the game. Nowhere in any discussion I've seen has CCP or anybody else suggested that the actual gameplay of Eve is going to be simplified in order to accommodate new players who subscribe as a result of either Incarna or Dust. In fact, it's possible, although I may be wrong but I doubt it, that both Dust and Incarna will open up entirely new avenues of exploitation for current Eve players. But only if we want to. Not have to. Want to.

But since I'm running out of room, let me say this. CCP is rightfully taking the long-term approach to addressing the issues that are constantly brought up here. They are opening avenues to attract new players, and most importantly, more players. This provides them with the income to hire more resources, hire more developers, and quite probably develop new technologies that will, in the end, make Eve itself an even better game. The mistake we make as a community is believing that Eve is being cast aside, whereas I'm a firm believer that all of these things, Dust and Incarna especially, are designed to help Eve grow well into the future.

BTW, a little tipsy, so ignore my errors Laughing


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