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Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:32:00 - [31]
 

It also occurs to me that you're drastically overestimating the number of current players that are going to be pulled in by Incarna. We wouldn't be here if we required a "character" to "identify with". ;-)

-Liang

pipvac
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:34:00 - [32]
 

I wish I could honestly say how surprised I was to see how little resource is being applied to fixing the staggering number of current gameplay issues. Sadly, this is exactly what I would have expected.

Money talks I guess, and theres money in consoles. The bones of the game works adequately enough, right? Don't need to tidy up the detail, yea? We have a subscription base hooked already, so lets move on... am I close?


If you want real change... real improvement....real fixes...vote with your subscription, and cancel it. Because money is the only thing CCP understand these days. Quality (or finished product)is a by word for ineffeciency it would seem.

Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:34:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren

- Have you considered offering bonuses for "small fry" fixes (like a new Cyno effect or a FW plex rebalance) that get done in someone's spare time?



Great new Business model - Propose a change you want, CCP sets a price on it in PLEXs and when enough players contribute the feature is delivered.

Got 10billion isk I'd spend on PLEX's (~$450?) for the return of the awesome looking cyno.

Jarnis McPieksu
H A V O C
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:34:00 - [34]
 

With all those resources being spent on Incarna, it better be good.

So far all I've heard is lolRP full body avatars walking around + minigames. Completely irrelevant stuff.

Want an easy way to apply :damage control:? Tell why EVE players should care about Incarna. Right now it seems like CCP is wasting 70% of EVE development resources on something most players don't care about. Until I hear otherwise, I read that devblog as "yeah, we've put 70% of our devs into making The Sims In Space for the lolrp crowd", which unsurprisingly isn't exactly a popular statement for your existing core audience.

The point is, having full body avatars and stuff is all nice, but until someone details what they are good for, what GAMEPLAY will there be, they are exactly as useful as our current portrait images. Pretty pictures with no gameplay functionality.

Or is the reason that you haven't given it any thought? I mean, why bother with avatars and walking, if you are not going to use them for anything? EVE is supposed to be a game, not Second Life In Space.

(and, for the record; 3 accounts, cancelled billing on all of them when CSM minutes were published. This Damage Control devblog is a good first step, but not resubbing based on that, as it effectively confirms what the minutes detailed)

Nyx Opet
Caldari
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:34:00 - [35]
 

so much whine over nothing.

haters gonna hate

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2010.07.16 18:36:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: devblog
EVE Gate

(1 team, approximately 10 developers)

We have one team (at this point) assigned to EVE Gate development and iteration, and that wont change for the foreseeable future. Note that this team is a dedicated Web development team. I had planned on using them to fix fleet lag but was talked out of it.
yous trollin'?

I think if you could separate all forum antics and hysteria into buckets of rational discussion you would find "fix the performance issues that cropped up 8 months ago" very high on the list of real concerns / things that make people want to jump ship.
Indeed, but here CCP Zulu is referring to the fact that the EVE Gate developers are specialized web developers and don't have the background or expertise to performance profile the server code, such as the physics simulation and damage tracking code, in a fleet fight. There are other people that have that as their main task and a lot more work on server performance as a part of their duties. Regarding client performance then CCP Blaze wrote a dev blog recently about the client performance improvements we made in Tyrannis.

JacobsGladedage
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:36:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: LordSwift
Awesome cant wait for incarna. Keep up the good work ccp. ignore all the whining idiots on the forums.

I think it's a cool feature actually. But it is in essence a 3d chat room and I can't see why I would ever use it beyond the initial "Oh lulz this is nifty" new feature moment, so I think it's only natural I'd much rather having them work on something else.

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:36:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Ohmiri
It is true that "complete sci-fi experience" dictates the need for some sort of avatar-based UI for some things, but would it not also mean a new/better UI that is less 3D-space oriented? More schematic, more functional? The current 3D UI is really kind of silly since you can't actually steer and use the 3D in obvious ways. It sure would be a lot easier to program and easier for players to work with.


I do NOT WANT a twitch game. No joysticks in EVE, ever!!!!!

Dirk Smacker
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:36:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Dirk Smacker on 16/07/2010 18:36:55
I fully expected to see:

Existing Features

(0 teams, approximately 0 developers)

Razz

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:36:00 - [40]
 

So since Eve is going to be "feature complete" by 2012, are you saying that we should probably cancel until your games ready by then? Why subscribe for 2 years to a "broken product" when you'll have it all fixed and patched by 2012? I mean I might as well wait for the full eve experience and spend my money then amirite?

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:36:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Virtuozzo on 16/07/2010 18:38:15
Originally by: CCP Zulupark
To be completely up-front about it, I have to say Im quite taken aback by the difference in the meeting minutes compared to my firsthand experience from attending the meetings.



All due respect. The minutes do make clear that discussions and sessions were constructive. Yes, obviously there is the matter of prioritisation, and sometimes also a little visibility of detachment, but you are not mistaken. Communication was constructive.

If there is one thing completely visible from the minutes, it is that on a CSM - Dev level the process was quite well executed.

Sure, there appears to be a little difference in assigning value and communication points to the CSM as stakeholder, because of subtle differences in definitions and opinions, but .. it is a process, right.

The glitch, so to speak, has nothing to do with the detail level. Sure, people do see what they consider symptomatic signs on that level, but the divide is on a higher level. Or I should say, the fundamental level of it all. The difference in awareness on what EVE as a product really is, what that means to customers, and what really is the very thing that makes people believe in EVE. And continue to want to believe in EVE.

It's really pretty simple. You're not selling just a game. CCP is not Blizzard. Your product is an immersion. It is a virtual life. EVE came to being because a bunch of people shared a strong emotional connection on what they wanted to do, how, and what they wanted to do inside it.

The reason customers stick with EVE, and do not vote with their feet (although it is a big sign these days to NOT see threadnaughts on these forums - it goes with the type of product definition, think about it) is because they live lives here, they make the very same emotional connection that the creators of EVE did.

Nathan's comments highlight a fundamental divide, but on the plus side they also show that this emotional connection is still there. It has just been burried under the normal tolls of turning a startup into an enterprise. Players have not seen this emotion for a long time, in fact, all they have seen is "marketing", which because the message has been so visible out of touch with the player realities for so long is today simply written off as bull****.

So, as strange as it may sound. That is a good thing. It gives hope, seeing that emotion.

Still, the thing that many players worry about is not his emotion, or even his statements, but the general statement in metrics relayed of priorities. And while players can perfectly understand commercial picturs (you created a game which attracts the smartest and toughest players of them all right) they are tuning out because the minutes show that at the top of the company an awareness is visible that does not match the awareness of the players.

Zulu, there have been some quite amazing blog posts from CSM members in followup, particularly those from Trebor spring to mind in regards to this particular topic of that "top down definition divide". We can see you asking the honest question, perhaps it would be an idea to check in with them, digest the blogs, maybe just grab a bunch on Skype and stick some heads together.

This ties in with another big observation point from the minutes, that communication and / or language (perspective translation) are suffering. Communication is the key here. With players, internal, and particularly with the CSM.

This is not so hard :-) You were at sessions, you do understand how much easier the availability of direct communications and facetime is. This is not a case of "omg players don't do gamedesign" or "wrong definition blokes", this is just using the best tools that are around for the job. Get each other connected, communicate. Half an hour on Skype does more then a few weeks of emails going back and forth via a single CSM liaison.

CSM, players,they all want to believe. You've got the tools, just get to it :-)

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:38:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Steelshine
Cashing in on Twilight IP by abusing WoD is more important then supporting your flagship game I guess. Honestly can't blame them for going where the money is...
I believe the WoD game has been in the works before the lame sparkling vampires of Twilight came on the scene. WoD isn't anything like Twilight anyway - as a long time WoD player I can say that with full confidence.

Personally, I'm looking forward to it and I wish there was a bit of news from time to time. Can't wait to grab a werewolf character and tear some leeches apart and bathe in their blood.

(And, you better let me play as a Red Talon or Uktena - they're awesome!)

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:40:00 - [43]
 

What I take from this blog is that in all of CCP, there's only one team currently working on in-space features, and they are working on a new group PvE feature. Nice I'm sure, but it misses the point.

Incarna, Dust, and Eve Gate are all big deals for the long-term future of EVE. Your honest fans understand that. Those of us who want you going strong thirty years from now want you to get those things right. But humping them all in a lump and ignoring all of the long-promised fixes (how many expansions ago was a rocket fix supposed to be in the next point release?) really is the problem we are complaining about.

Rejigger your priorities. Free up four or five devs and put them on a team to fix the little stuff we are using every day. You'll have a lot more players still here to see your big features by the time they are done. Really, you will.

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:40:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Sturmwolke on 16/07/2010 18:43:32
CCP Zulu, not wanting to burst your bubble or anything, nor am I wanting to comment on the susbstance of what was written ... but mentioning MIT PhD (twice!) makes you sound like you're trying a little too hard. Very Happy

Moral of the story is, you can have hundereds of MIT guys running around doing something, but it only takes one guy, one bright spark, one ephiphany to solve an issue.

Edit : added moral

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:41:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Evelgrivion on 16/07/2010 18:45:33
It's not exactly fair to present the Incarna stuff as a different game product than Eve Online, since its all part of the same game. Laughing

Other than that, the current allocation of 11%(Question) of the development team towards fixing currently identified issues in performance while no developers are aimed at the content issues identified by the Fifth CSM are the entire reason the player base is up in arms. Critical flaws have developed in playability, and it doesn't feel like enough is being done to address them; the comment about the 18 month plan having no fixes in mind for low sec pushed the anger to critical mass.

Its great to see just what the development teams are working on, but the more prominent advice the player base has for the development teams is fixing the mechanics of the sovereignty system, and fleshing out faction warfare in low security space, as well as the other issues that have shown up rather than try to bulk up eve with even more features. But whatever you do, don't stop caring about Eve, because we care about it too. Smile

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2010.07.16 18:41:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: ceaon
so wait from 300 ppl that work at CCP you only get this 22 ppl on eve ?
With my math it works out to 54 that work directly on EVE.

Darth Sith
Genbuku.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:42:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Darth Sith on 16/07/2010 18:46:49
Originally by: Jack Dant
Quote:
Incarna (9 teams, approximately 70 developers)

In-space features (3 teams, approximately 22 developers)
(feature team, the mission design team and an art/effects team)

EVE Gate (1 team, approximately 10 developers)


And you don't see how the players of EVE (a game about spaceships) might object to your resource allocation?


^^ This

To me getting something like fleet issues fixed or finally a real friggin Cyno effect that doesn't involve that use the spherical animation used for just about everything else, would make me a whole lot happier then walking in a station in what is sure to be yet another "this is only iteration 1 of this feature" that never delivers . Kinda like that space farmville failscade you call PI...

EDIT: oh wait .. I get it! .. Incarna is the shiney carrot to keep a pile of people docked up instead of getting into fleet fights there-by addressing lag. I see what you did there :)

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2010.07.16 18:42:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Where did the remaining 200+ developers go as I'm pretty sure it was over 300 working on Apocrypha?
They returned to their projects after Apocrypha.

iudex
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:45:00 - [49]
 

Quote:
First off, Incarna

(9 teams, approximately 70 developers)

Development of Incarna is something that CCP has committed to for multiple reasons, but the most prominent one is fairly simple.

To achieve our goal of EVE being a complete sci-fi experience we must have full body avatars. When we talk to people who like the concept of science fiction games but aren't attracted to EVE, it becomes obvious that there is a need gap that can best be filled by having a character to associate with rather than a spaceship, and I would venture there are many existing players who want this option as well.



I still don't get why Incarna is a must-have for Eve.
There are plenty of SciFi full body avatar MMOs nowadays (check mmorpg.com). There you get the complete game, hunting, SciFi monsters and weapons, HUGE maps to explore etc. So if we were looking for that kind of SciFi experience we'd play those games while playing Eve for spaceships. The typical MMO gamer isn't restricted to one game nowadays. AFAIK the Eve avatars will only have fluff, no PVE or PVP, so why are you investing so much manpower in such a minor aspect, that never can compete with games where this running-around-in-avatars is the core aspect ? Do you really think SciFi fans will prefer Eve over let's say SW:TOR when they want to run around in a character instead of a spaceship ?

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:45:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Steelshine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Darkness#WoD_MMORPG

VAMPIREZ

Cashing in on Twilight IP by abusing WoD is more important then supporting your flagship game I guess. Honestly can't blame them for going where the money is...


Yes, as I wrote long ago (like a couple of years) this is ultimately why CCP wants to develop walking-in-station. They own WoD, and they want to exploit that property with some kind of MMO. It is, and has always been, extremely obvious from where I'm sitting.

Not that I'm against WiS. I like the idea, it sounds like fun, and it'll pull in a lot of new players who are put off majorly by being confined to being spaceships (and immobile faces). I'm just saying I know the real reason CCP is so into this.


Steelshine
Caldari
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:46:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: ceaon
so wait from 300 ppl that work at CCP you only get this 22 ppl on eve ?
With my math it works out to 54 that work directly on EVE.


Oh, that's much better, 22 is hardly enough for your flagship game, 54 is overkill though.

Rolling Eyes

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2010.07.16 18:47:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Viper ShizzIe
Thanks for proving everybody right about how much you actually care about EVE Online.
I care deeply about EVE Online and so does everyone at CCP.

Ohmiri
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:48:00 - [53]
 

Quote:

I do NOT WANT a twitch game. No joysticks in EVE, ever!!!!!



Me either - I am arguing that more current players would like a less 3D, more schematic UI than a full-body avatar UI that doesn't enhance/improve the deep play features already available. Really, it seems that one spends most of one's time looking at/interacting with the text windows, not at the outside space scene, even in combat.

Some great reply posts here and I'm always encouraged when devs jump back into the discussion.

OwlManAtt
Gallente
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:49:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Where did the remaining 200+ developers go as I'm pretty sure it was over 300 working on Apocrypha?
They returned to their projects after Apocrypha.
The blog post accounts for 142 developers. I think he's asking where the other ~150 went?

zandayus
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:50:00 - [55]
 

the future comes but the realities will linger.blessed are they that expect nothing.for they shall not be disappionted.

Grek Forto
Crosshair Corp
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:50:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Viper ShizzIe
Thanks for proving everybody right about how much you actually care about EVE Online.
I care deeply about EVE Online and so does everyone at CCP.


You better! *shakes fist* Cool

In all honesty though. Dev blogs like this are really good ways to show us players that you are really working on the game. I feel that sometimes there is a lack of communication about what you guys are actually up to. I support more dev blogs like this one! Very Happy

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:51:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Viper ShizzIe
Thanks for proving everybody right about how much you actually care about EVE Online.
I care deeply about EVE Online and so does everyone at CCP.


In spite of some vinegar in some posts, I'm quite sure most or even the absolute majority of players do believe you and the Devs care. This really is not the point of concern.

Folks see the divide in definition on what EVE really is, what makes them and it tick, and how that looks to be translated in message traffic and vision from the top down.

That is where it stings. No marketing can address that, only open communication can.

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:51:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Regarding client performance then CCP Blaze wrote a dev blog recently about the client performance improvements we made in Tyrannis.


So a blackscreening client uses 80mb less.


Thanks for confirming that we'll be stuck with a badly designed sov system, no treaties, half broken fw, broken cosmos, non functioning system upgrades and the many more issues for what is in gaming terms an eternity.
We kinda figured that out from the minutes already though.

ElweSingollo
The Higher Standard
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:53:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: OwlManAtt
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Where did the remaining 200+ developers go as I'm pretty sure it was over 300 working on Apocrypha?
They returned to their projects after Apocrypha.
The blog post accounts for 142 developers. I think he's asking where the other ~150 went?


one would guess World of darkness but hey lets all get phsychehd about playing vampires I guess!

Astomichi
Posted - 2010.07.16 18:54:00 - [60]
 

Fix. Server. Lag.


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