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Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.07.16 03:25:00 - [1]

Edited by: Mynxee on 18/07/2010 15:15:01
Revitalization of Low Sec was a cornerstone of my CSM campaign. At the June 2010 Summit, a two-hour session was devoted to discussion and brainstorming about the future of Low Sec. The presentation I gave to jump-start the session incorporated ideas from a Low Sec Focus Group I conducted during my campaign. CCP Greyscale suggested that we "write the big picture story" of Low Sec based on these ideas and submit the story as a proposal. Of course, the time frame for any changes to Low Sec is probably going to coincide with my earthly demise (it really sucks to start playing a game like this when you're already "old"!), but I'm stubbornly optimistic that it just might happen before then.

Anyway, in pondering how to "write" a Low Sec "story" collaboratively with other players, the challenges became obvious:

1. Given the number of people who might want to participate in the development of my "Criminal Industry" Low Sec story, how do we efficiently work together to share ideas, identify synergies between ideas, reach consensus on the best ideas, not stifle creativity, and end up with a story that is conceptually strong, cohesive, and not overly complex?

2. How do we keep the project fun, energized, and on course to produce the "deliverable" (a proposal) within a reasonable time-frame? Furthermore, how do we structure it to accommodate waxing or waning interest or availability on the part of contributors?

3. Tons of good ideas are posted on these forums, in blogs, on Twitter and elsewhere related to making Low Sec better. They don't all interlace, many conflict with each other, and most don't mesh with my "criminal industry" story idea. What will encourage people to lead individual initiatives to develop their own Low Sec stories--yet do that in a manner which produces consistent proposals, any one of which might be the "best" idea for Low Sec but all of which are solid content-wise and structured in such a way as to make CCP's job in assessing and understanding them easier?

All good questions, and all needing some thought before work begins...lest we all drive ourselves nuts paddling in a million directions at once.

So..without over-complicating things and keeping in mind we're doing this for fun on a volunteer basis, my idea is to treat this like any other collaborative creative task I've managed. Describe goals, identify milestones, define processes, enable collaboration and communication, perform regular progress assessments, and adapt as needed to keep things on track. Typical project management stuff. Public documentation of our process details will make it easy for other folks to adapt and use them in their own efforts if they want to.

This thread is for the discussion of challenges, process, and potential tools related to collaborating to write new Low Sec stories. It is not intended for discussion of ideas for Low Sec. That comes later. First, I want to gather workflow for a few days and use them to put together an approach for collaboratively writing the "Criminal Industry" Low Sec story. When done, I'll post that in its own thread and then the fun stuff can begin!

And here you thought I'd become completely disillusioned by EVE. Nope, only half. More importantly, I want to honor the enthusiasm of players who want to "get crackin'" on Low Sec (here's looking at you, Andrea Griffin!). Sure, it might be forever or never that CCP does anything with our ideas, so what? Participating in a structured creative process with a tangible outcome can be its own reward.

UPDATE: Crowdsourcing for Criminal Industry Ideas

Krans Hopeson
Coffee Muggers
Posted - 2010.07.16 10:07:00 - [2]

I suggest that a good start would be to compile, on EVElopedia, some lists:

  1. CSM proposals related to lowsec that are in the CCP backlog

  2. CSM proposals related to lowsec that were rejected by CCP

  3. Significant forum threads from the last couple of years discussing lowsec improvements

These resources could then be examined to see if there are any common themes or concepts that already seem to have the general acceptance of the playerbase, and that could form the basis of a new "big picture story" for lowsec.

Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.07.16 13:14:00 - [3]

Originally by: Krans Hopeson
I suggest that a good start would be to compile, on EVElopedia, some lists:

I agree! Will you link those lists here when you're done? Wink

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2010.07.16 14:06:00 - [4]

Edited by: Andrea Griffin on 16/07/2010 14:07:07
Using the wiki is great for documentation and it would be a good place to keep the official proposal, in whatever state it is. I'm a big fan of wikis in general.

They're not so great for discussing ideas though. The forums work well for this, it's what we're doing right now. Very Happy But unfortunately if the current F&I forum is used for this I think a lot of important threads will drop off the front page. It's hard to keep anything on the front page for more than an hour or two and I would want as much input from as many people as possible - which isn't going to happen when a thread is buried on page 4 after a few hours. Would it be possible to have the CSM ask for a new forum section devoted specifically to the topic of discussion low-sec improvements?

Also, I really liked the idea of the focus groups that Mynxee ran. It's good to have some real-time discussion and a lot of interesting ideas and viewpoints came out of them. Mynxee, would you be willing to do some more of these?

Originally by: Mynxee
how do we [...] end up with a story that is conceptually strong, cohesive, and not overly complex?
By picking a few major conceptual points and basing all of the improvements around those. Take a few things and flesh them out completely.

Originally by: Mynxee
how do we structure it to accommodate waxing or waning interest or availability on the part of contributors
I personally see the CSM as the overseeing entity that keeps the project alive and breathing. You guys take care of the big picture and the proposal itself, and steer discussion. Let the Eve Forum Warriors do what we do best: Come up with a lot of awful ideas and a few gems, offer feedback which is then refined which adds to or modifies the current state of the low-sec story.

Mynxee's presentation is already a great start. It hits the major bullet points that everyone has been talking about for years.

Originally by: Mynxee
Tons of good ideas [...] They don't all interlace, many conflict with each other, and most don't mesh with my "criminal industry" story idea.
Personally, I think low-sec really does need to focus on the criminal aspect of Eve. I'm totally biased though. But, not all criminal activity is pew pew, drugs, and booze. The concept of a black market has been tossed around for a long time, for example. Illeagal research (some form of invention) is another idea that is criminal, but not piracy.

(As a side note, just had an idea to tie criminal groups into FW: What if these things were possible, but only if a criminal group (angels, guristas, etc.) held sovereignty in the system?)

Where the CSM comes in is to decide what the core of low-sec should be and then accept and modify ideas as necessary so that they fit that flavor.

Should be easy. I mean, people in Eve are pretty agreeable, right? Very Happy

Tornado Bait
Burn Away
Posted - 2010.07.16 15:58:00 - [5]

How about a contest? one for each of the points in your presentation.

Something like Top 5 as chosen by a selection committee, which are then voted on by the players. Prizes to be awarded, and maybe CCP can make a little advert in game like they do for CSM elections.

Posted - 2010.07.16 22:03:00 - [6]

If you setup a forum type web page for it, with a voting system, that could streamline what needs to be done.

1. I think you could get representatives from various pirate corps and faction war corps to "vote" for that corps opinion on a matter or to be held responsible for filtering the good ideas from the bad. Sorta like a subCSM panel. Really need to focus on having people who live in low sec here.

2. I am not sure if it will be fun, maybe don't try to sugar coat it? I am pretty sure that the idea of improving low sec will be enough for us to get through it.

3. Rock the vote! While we can agree on some things, there are some things I really don't see eye to eye with, like people who want bubbles in low sec and don't seem to understand that it would only make low sec into really bad NPC nullsec where you take a GCC, gate guns and concord standings losses. If you want bubbles why don't you go to NPC 0.0? Why take away the bubble free pvp? Trust me bubbles would not be good for pirates. - See so some things need to be voted on.

Jasper Mc'Innis
Posted - 2010.07.17 01:14:00 - [7]

As a lowsec dweller for years and a somewhat competent writer, i'd be thrilled to compile a few of my more memorable tales of lowsec goodness (and badness YARRRR!! ofc) for the project. I'm not tech savvy enough to suggest a proper way to present them online, but certainly like the idea.

Posted - 2010.07.17 03:17:00 - [8]

I don't understand what the deliverable is supposed to be here. What does a "story" mean in this context? It sounds to me like what they're saying is, "we DONT want a list of features/design changes." What do they want? Like an actual RP "story" like you can read on any of half a dozen of CrazyKinux's blogs? Some kind of "burn them all" trailer? Or maybe the feature/design changes are okay they just also want an overriding narrative structure that ties them all together (e.g. lowsec is a dangerous borderlands like Tijuana or Tangiers, where X Y and Z rules apply and you can do A B and C...)

Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.07.17 04:08:00 - [9]

By "stories" CCP didn't mean tales of your adventures in Low Sec, but more the big picture story you'd tell someone if you were describing what it was like, the nature of teh environment, what could be done, what activities were possible, etc.

EC JuniorD
Posted - 2010.07.17 04:12:00 - [10]

I would probably say that low-sec is quite boring and nullsec is better. :P

Posted - 2010.07.17 05:27:00 - [11]

Just some ideas:

Consider more than just the criminal element for the back story.

High sec is organized central government.

Low sec is the front lines of the major wars – faction war. Its also where different groups of power meet. (Null sec would be space that none of the 4 major factions really care much about)

In amarr low sec Space there may be certain "heretical" groups. Some good some bad. Just not dominant. One big downside of eves back story is there is only one religion. Its sort of like a blend of our major religions. But it’s a horribly cliché and one dimensional depiction of religion.

Caldari certain corporations that are aren't in favor - some good some bad. Etc.

As far as the mechanics:

Low sec combat should offer alternative mechanics to pvp than null sec. It does this to some extent already by not allowing bubbles and bombs. More variations would be good. Maybe .2 and lower systems have no sentry guns?

The combat mechanics of FW can be made into a fresh way to do combat that you will not find anywhere else in eve. See the thread in my sig for my ideas there.

As far as the other combat mechanics outside of fw. I think the severe penalties need to be lifted a bit.

I think the sec status hits are too big. Can’t go in any high sec space??? That’s too much. Maybe if you pirate in minmatar it will only hurt your minmatar standing and ability to go in *minmatar* high sec. I won’t be a pirate because I think that is a crazy restriction that is a real dampener to combat in low sec.

Ease up on GCC. I never heard a good reason why it has to last so fricking long! 4 minutes is plenty imo.

Add fw style missions for other low sec agents.

Add special low sec lp that can only be obtained by running low sec missions. There should be low sec specific items that you can only buy with the special low sec lp.

Its main competition is npc null sec as I see it. Ask people in npc null sec why they prefer to fight there.

Bellum Eternus
The Scope
Posted - 2010.07.17 07:24:00 - [12]

I think this is a great idea. Very well presented Mynxee!

So, my two cents:

I think that Lowsec should be the most exotic of all forms of space in Eve. Not exotic with respect to materials or complexes or NPCs or whatever, but what you can find there, both people and items.

Lowsec should be the collision point between 0.0 and highsec and as such be the richest and most varied of all areas of space. It should be where both ideologies meet to exchange goods and services and do their business that is best left unmentioned.

There needs to be massive incentives to do business in lowsec for all types of players. What if there was no sales tax for market orders, and no market setup fees? What if there are special (very powerful and effective) items that can only be produced and sold in lowsec? They could be fit/used/flown in any space, but only available in lowsec markets and only produced in lowsec.

There needs to be a story to tie all of this together. Tales of rare and exotic ships piloted by eccentric captains, surrounded by swarthy henchmen who might just shoot you in the face as much as help you out for exceedingly large amounts of ISK.

Lowsec needs to be the Las Vegas or Soi Cowboy of Eve. It's your go-to place for the best of the worst. The best drugs, the best guns, the best girls. On big hooker/biker/cowboy/S&M bar rolled into one, with guns.

All good things start with a good story. Lowsec needs the same. Lowsec should have tails of opposing Empires brushing against each other, making deals with the devil himself to further their cause only to regret it later on. Independents trying to carve their own little section out of the area.

Anyway, that's a start. Feedback?

Shin Dari
Posted - 2010.07.17 09:03:00 - [13]

Edited by: Shin Dari on 17/07/2010 09:03:28
The way to make low sec fun, to have it be independent and profitable, while leaving room for the small guy/corp.


Criminal industrialist
To make this role viable, the production of some items and ships in high sec must be banned:
- Drugs
- Designer drugs
- Warp bubbles
- Bombs
- Pirate Faction items & ships
- Pirate implants
- Propulsion jamming modules
- etc

Black market
Low sec should have its own market. This market should have no taxes.

A pirate can force a target (player) to pay ransom using a ransom contract. For this option to be available, the pirate must successfully scram & web the target. The target gets 15 seconds to agree with paying the ransom. If the ransom is payed then the target can't be targeted by anybody for 30 seconds. Pirate can't be in same corp or alliance as target.

Large Smuggle Gate
Large Smuggle gates link to distant low sec pockets, can be used as massive short cuts through the Eve universe. These gates won't appear on the overview but must be scanned down.

Pirate Faction Space
Pirate Faction Gates are guarded by pirate factions and they link to hidden systems in which pirate factions are the boss. For safe passage an entry fee can be paid to that pirate faction. The fee amount will depend upon the security status and the standing with that faction. All pirate factions want isk. Not paying the fee allows you to be targeted by anyone in their system, and NPC pirate guards will use you for target practice. Pirate factions don't tolerate members of alliances into these systems.
The stations in these systems are the main black market trading hubs. Pirate factions give LP for navy & concord tags. This LP can then be used in their LP store for exclusive implants and T1 & pirate faction BPCs. These stations don't have research installations but do have a great amount of manufacturing installations.

Tributes to the Pirate Lord
Life is good for Redbeard John, all the station and planetary installation owners pay tribute to him, as he is the biggest killer in the system and they all fear his wrath.
[Multiple kills against a single character isn't counted to prevent cheating. Killing station owner characters causes negative scores. The tribute donation is make every Friday after DT]


Concord Guards and 'Mining' them
To properly secure high sec Concord has decided to guard the jump gates going into high sec. These ships aren't top of the line models and can be killed by a determined attacking force. The destruction of the concord vessels will sound an alert on the high sec side.
Concord ships will drop tags and components. How long it will take for massive concord reinforcements to arrive will depend upon upon the local security level. Concord reinforcements will try to chase down aggressors in system for 30 min, so pirates should leave the system asap. NPC Pirate factions pay LP for Concord tags. This can be called Concord Mining.

ps. No sentry guns on gates in 0.1 or 0.2.

Reduce the amount of 'good guy' NPC corp stations in low sec as many have no business being in low sec, and place faction navy around the remaining 'good guy' stations. The remaining good guy stations should be the bridge between the black market and the legal market. The removed stations should be replaced by 'bad guy' NPC stations.


Mercenary Escorts (NPC)
This is a service in stations bordering low sec. Pilot will pay for quantity and duration of the escorts. These will appear as soon as the pilot enters low sec. The mercenary will automatically fleet warp with the pilot. However these escorts will try to warp away if their shields break, as they aren't getting paid to die. If the pilot is killed then he/she will get half their money back.

Pirate Hunting License
Allows pilot to earn money from killing negative security characters in low sec as if they were NPC pirates. Requires high Concord standings.

Heavy Risk...
Posted - 2010.07.17 14:56:00 - [14]

I think the general consensus, as you pointed out, is that lowsec needs a new and unique identity most likely based on a unique mechanic, resource or product that can't be found or produced in highsec/nullsec. The unfortunate part is that this feels like it flies in the face of:

"How do we keep the project fun, energized, and on course to produce the "deliverable" (a proposal) within a reasonable time-frame?"

I honestly don't know how what we all want could be implemented in a reasonable time-frame as creating entirely new game mechanics is time consuming and probably something that would require an expansion just to implement and even begin to balance. So perhaps we need to identify not only a long term goal to revamp lowsec but a number of small tweaks to the existing implementation so that even if CCP is unwilling or unable to give us a major overhaul, we can at least get a few small things accomplished. I know you don't want specifics quite yet but just to give people an idea of things that would be very easy to implement and could help make a difference:

(1) Reducing the duration or changing the behavior of GCC and other timers.

(2) Modifying the behavior of sentry guns.

Sorry, I don't even know if I'm working towards any point here that will be useful or even related to what you requested. Here's my attempt at shoehorning something useful in at the end:

Help CCP and Others Understand: Create some sort of list or collection of experiences that explains what living in lowsec is like for people of different professions/lifestyles and then highlight the biggest issues that occur during this "Day In The Life Of" type document. This could be used to help explain to individuals at CCP who obviously don't live in lowsec, what is wrong with it. Have a CSM member that is familiar with lowsec go through this with them.

Hell's Revenge
Posted - 2010.07.18 14:46:00 - [15]

Mynxee, it makes sense to create a wiki page on this and put lots of people (who are interested) on this project. I don't believe this project is very easy to do so that's why.

On my part all I want to say is yes this is an awesome idea and your on the right track. Also, for the low sec revamp...remove that GCC FFS. It makes no sense in any way I look at it.

Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.07.18 15:12:00 - [16]

As a reminder, I'm not gonna discuss Low Sec ideas in this thread. This thread is about how to organize the discussion and let the most popular ideas bubble to the top.

For that, a crowdsourcing tool is needed; I've looked at a few and for the moment, I think I'll just go with Ideascale since its free and easy. I wanted something that would allow for mind-mapping and voting up / down of ideas plus make it possible to attach threaded discussions to nodes, but found nothing that had it all in one package.

For now, Ideascale will work to capture ideas and get an idea of support for them. When it comes time to perhaps think about idea mapping, then we can see what might work for that purpose.

Go here, register, and login to participate. There's not much there yet because I've not had time to fill in ideas, but everything I add will be directly related to the ideas in my presentation. Everyone else can feel free to add ideas they think fits in the "Criminal Industry" story for Low Sec and we'll see where it goes from there as people add ideas, discuss them, and vote them up or down.

Shin Dari
Posted - 2010.07.18 16:17:00 - [17]

Mynxee, I didn't knew that even existed, its a very good idea.

Bellum Eternus
The Scope
Posted - 2010.07.18 16:26:00 - [18]

Ahhh, this thread is for how to design the processes, not the content. Gotcha. My bad lol. Embarassed

Posted - 2010.07.19 11:53:00 - [19]

Mynxee I am interested in reading the results of the focus group linked above but couldn't get the files to open,

Can you (or someone) confirm what program/format they are in?


Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2010.07.19 22:05:00 - [20]

I'm loving the IdeaScale site. For those who are involved, I ask that if you rate an idea up or down to also add a comment as to why. That is just as, if not more, valuable than the vote itself. If you don't like an idea, perhaps you can recommend some changes that would make it better.

Posted - 2010.07.21 03:27:00 - [21]

Originally by: Mynxee
Everyone else can feel free to add ideas they think fits in the "Criminal Industry" story for Low Sec and we'll see where it goes from there as people add ideas, discuss them, and vote them up or down.

Is this for low sec ideas or only ideas that involve "criminal industry." I think you underestimate how many in low sec are there due to faction war or non outlaws.

To me low sec is the battleground between the the major 4 factions. The pirates and others are just other pvp opportunities. When I fight someone in an astroid belt I don't see this as "criminal" activity. The loss of sec status is just reason to go null sec.

I think it would be good not only to get perspectives of people who live in high and low sec now(beaten to death) but those who live in null sec. Why don't they go to low sec for pvp? Especially those in npc null sec like teaddaze. I bet the answers have something to do sec status and gcc. Those can only be deemed major disincentives to living in low sec.

Posted - 2010.07.21 05:53:00 - [22]

Hey, remember that one year at... fanfest? where the groups broke up and made up different expansion ideas, and one group came up with lowsec mods involving corruption and the 'methnaught' ship and such? And it was wildly popular and the devs asked tons of questions and it monopolized the session?

What ever happened to that?

Do we still have their presentation anywhere in the interwebs?

Oh, this.

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2010.08.12 16:01:00 - [23]

Friendly bump.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.08.13 17:10:00 - [24]

Originally by: d4shing
Oh, this.

^^^ Greatest idea ever.

Ori Blake
Posted - 2010.08.13 19:57:00 - [25]

As long as you all don't forget the Factional Warfare Lowsec Story. Lowsec is more than pirates.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.08.13 20:11:00 - [26]

Edited by: X Gallentius on 13/08/2010 20:15:42
FW and "life of crime" can co-exist. In fact the militias can be "vigilantes" as well.

Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2010.08.13 23:51:00 - [27]

Originally by: Ori Blake
As long as you all don't forget the Factional Warfare Lowsec Story. Lowsec is more than pirates.

Maybe you guys should go there, vote on the ideas and maybe propose your own.

Mister Swift
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Posted - 2010.08.26 08:16:00 - [28]

Bump :)


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