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blankseplocked A simple yet elegant fix to afk cloaking
 
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suspisious
Posted - 2010.07.15 10:46:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: darius mclever
cloak comes with penalties (scan res, target delay, speed under cloak) or on relatively light ships. and as long the ship is cloaked it cant do anything to you. and once you locked it, it cant cloak anymore. so your claim "there is no counter" to it, is wrong.

but back to your proposal. the major gripe i have with all those "probe out cloaked ships", "anti cloak bomb/signal". they favor "blob the cloaky and then go back to careless carebearing".

and you got enough people out there who behave in 0.0 like it would be highsec already.

So I am still in favor of getting more creative to get the cloaky ship to aggress you. Or just ignore them. Rat in groups and such and make them leave bored.


A cloaked ship can do a lot of things to you. He can monitor and report all your activities. He forces you to be more carefull, slowing down system activity. And he can wait as long as he wants for the right moment to strike. The initiative is always with the cloaker. Thats all fine by me exceppt the last one.

The Cloaker always gets the first move. If he doesnt do anything he is compleetly immune. this makes him 100% safe, even if hes afk.
You cant really bore um into leaving if there not there. THere probably on their alt doing other stuff, doing groceries or are here in the forums in this topic saying local is the problem.

I think cloak should remain the way it is. but make it so that you cant be away or face destruction.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2010.07.15 11:59:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: suspisious
but make it so that you cant be away or face destruction.


Which is something this thread does not accomplish.

1. Cloak in a system.
2. Put a cloak in the f1 slot.
3. Put a rock on the f1 slot to make an auto refreshing cloak.
4. Go afk.
5. ?
6. Profit.

Party Scout
Posted - 2010.07.15 13:13:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: foksieloy
Originally by: suspisious
but make it so that you cant be away or face destruction.


Which is something this thread does not accomplish.

1. Cloak in a system.
2. Put a cloak in the f1 slot.
3. Put a rock on the f1 slot to make an auto refreshing cloak.
4. Go afk.
5. ?
6. Profit.


Pressing F1 again would decloak you, And with the 30s cloak cooldown timer, you'd be out of cloak quite a bit so you can be found. Do you even know how cloaks work?

So yeah, the OP has an interesting solution.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2010.07.15 14:37:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Party Scout
Do you even know how cloaks work?


Yes I do.
I was doing a silly explanation (obviously wasn't that funny) for what would actually happen. And that is cloak bots.

Party Scout
Posted - 2010.07.15 15:00:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: foksieloy
Originally by: Party Scout
Do you even know how cloaks work?


Yes I do.
I was doing a silly explanation (obviously wasn't that funny) for what would actually happen. And that is cloak bots.


I consider AFKers and botters at the same level. Neither are playing the game, and should be removed. AFK miners can get something by not playing, AFK cloakers can get something by not playing. Both simply do not fit in a game you are supposed to play.

Not all the blame falls on the players, it falls on the archaic game design that CCP used to make mining, and PI. And in that case. The problem with the cloaks is not the cloak itself. The cloak itself has plenty of disadvantages to make it balanced... I would even say it's a bit nerfed.

The problem lies with what a cloaked ship has the potential to do, and that there is no way to counter that potential. A 100 capital ship fleet has terrible potential, but I can see them, I can counter it, or run from it, or do something. But I cannot do anything against a cloaked ship that may or may not be manned, and can be a threat at any moment.

So yeah, the AFK cloaker can be a constant threat, even if he's not at the keys. The threat is not from the cloak itself, but the potential he carries. And that threat cannot be countered.

Misanthra
Posted - 2010.07.15 15:10:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Misanthra on 15/07/2010 15:10:04
Originally by: Concubinia Scarlett
Go ratting in groups? -Very low rewards, still easy targets, bombers will love em.


Unless suicidal, most sb's do not solo groups.

Also do not rat to the point you can't tank 1 bomb. SB's work effectively only in packs, a decently tanked BS or even bc like drake should not be fearing one lone bomb. If rats kicking your ass to where you can't tank a bomb...warp out.

Do not all warp to 0 on each other. Bombers like group targets...don't give them that. Combat toon flies a raven...if my friend in an SR gun lover setup, I know I can warp in way out from him and still hit targets no issue.

And rewards..depends. MOderate skill level players kill 1.8s not as fast as say a sanctum ho'ing thanatos pilot. 2-3 of them together pop 1.8s quick making them respawn that much faster. ISk returns come in volume of high value respawns given enough time ratting. Or if not seeing that great a return there is the simple fact that splitting a triple 1.8 between 3 people is still 1.8 mil each is getting. If they sat in station twidling thier thumbs fearing the lone hound, they make 0. 0 isk....1.8 mil isk, which of these numbers sounds better?

Frieg Vostroyan
Posted - 2010.07.15 15:23:00 - [37]
 

Thread is pointless. "...fix to afk cloaking".. fix implies that it is a problem, which it isn't.

Nobody can be plagued but something that isn't there, so how is a afk person harming you? If he is afk then you have nothing to worry about, and if he isn't then you have no argument.

So "solution"... get over it.

Party Scout
Posted - 2010.07.15 15:31:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Frieg Vostroyan
Thread is pointless. "...fix to afk cloaking".. fix implies that it is a problem, which it isn't.

Nobody can be plagued but something that isn't there, so how is a afk person harming you? If he is afk then you have nothing to worry about, and if he isn't then you have no argument.

So "solution"... get over it.


Are you a fortune cookie? Do you know that what you just said is completely pointless? Saying an unmanned cloaked ship is no threat is like saying an unmanned titan is no threat. It's perfectly true, but completely useless information unless you know if it is manned or not.

A cloaked ship is a potential threat. At any moment he can move and drop a Cyno.

There is no way to tell if the ship is manned or not, no way to counter it, so the ship is a potential threat as long as he is in the system.

Misanthra
Posted - 2010.07.15 15:50:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Party Scout
A cloaked ship is a potential threat. At any moment he can move and drop a Cyno



true...but depends on the ship you are flying. Personally if a cloaky thinks my raven is worthy of a mom hot drop, I would show that km with pride. Hell birng 2 nyx's...would have to watch out for sharp objects...might pop my ego after needing 2 moms to bring me down lol. Carriers, yes they safe. 1 bs and a bc....got to be a bored cap/super cap pilot to waste your time on that.

For covert cynos...read, remember, recall local intel. got like 10 cloakies in a 5-6 jump radius....might be cyno gang. some caution needed. In the case of one system I was in....we grouped and basically the cloaky left after a few days. We knew he was solo cause we had eyes all over and skies clear 7 jumps out any direction. He knew we knew he was solo cause if he wanted to watch us continue to rat...had all the chances in the world cause rat we still did. So off he went to scare people elsewhere.

Party Scout
Posted - 2010.07.15 16:18:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Misanthra
Originally by: Party Scout
A cloaked ship is a potential threat. At any moment he can move and drop a Cyno



true...but depends on the ship you are flying. Personally if a cloaky thinks my raven is worthy of a mom hot drop, I would show that km with pride. Hell birng 2 nyx's...would have to watch out for sharp objects...might pop my ego after needing 2 moms to bring me down lol. Carriers, yes they safe. 1 bs and a bc....got to be a bored cap/super cap pilot to waste your time on that.

For covert cynos...read, remember, recall local intel. got like 10 cloakies in a 5-6 jump radius....might be cyno gang. some caution needed. In the case of one system I was in....we grouped and basically the cloaky left after a few days. We knew he was solo cause we had eyes all over and skies clear 7 jumps out any direction. He knew we knew he was solo cause if he wanted to watch us continue to rat...had all the chances in the world cause rat we still did. So off he went to scare people elsewhere.


That is awesome. I do not mind when the cloaker comes to fight, and brings ships. That's all fine and good. But he does not come to fight, and there is nothing I can do about it. Anything else I can do something about it. Even high sec, I can wardec some people. I can suicide gank them if they are in a noob corp. I can engage in market PVP, put out contracts for their freighters, fight over WH control. I can do all that, but I can do nothing to a cloaker that may, or may not be a threat. That in itself is unbalanced for a game that offers so many options.

The game is very direct and allows me to do something about anything. I want to take control of 0.0 I can (I may have to fight for it, but I can do it). Yet there is nothing I can do about this.

Admiral Perimeter
Posted - 2010.07.15 16:21:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Admiral Perimeter on 15/07/2010 16:32:11
Edited by: Admiral Perimeter on 15/07/2010 16:28:00
Edited by: Admiral Perimeter on 15/07/2010 16:23:43
Ok, it seems a lot of people have been discussing my post on the first page suggesting that AFK cloaking is fine because it is psychological warfare only.

I feel I need to address some of the responses to it.

I would like to reiterate that an AFK cloaker is 100% harmless. For one, he is cloaked and therefore cannot target or harm anyone, and for two, he is not even at his keyboard. THIS NEEDS NO COUNTER AS THERE IS NOTHING TO COUNTER.

If an AFK Cloaker sits in a system and then finds a lone ratter and pops a cyno to bring in a SC and several carriers, the problem is the SC and the carriers in your system, not the AFK cloaker. Your solution should be to bring 2 SCs and more carriers.

That SC and Carrier can get into your system in any number of ways.

I've lived in 0.0 for 90% of my Eve playing time, and I've dealt with AFK cloakers throughout it.

Any alliance comfortable enough living in 0.0 and capable enough to defend their systems has nothing to fear from these afk cloakers.


Edit: Ok, the second argument I need to address.

The "potential damage" an AFK cloaker can cause (e.g. cynoing a huge fleet to pwn your carebear ratters) is not a legitimate cause to change the AFK cloaking mechanic.

If you cannot defend your system regardless of the way that hostiles get into it, you do not deserve to make isk there. Either packup and head for Jita, or learn how to defend a system.





Ishina Fel
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.07.15 16:26:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Ishina Fel on 15/07/2010 16:26:27
Originally by: Misanthra
For covert cynos...read, remember, recall local intel. got like 10 cloakies in a 5-6 jump radius....might be cyno gang. some caution needed. In the case of one system I was in....we grouped and basically the cloaky left after a few days. We knew he was solo cause we had eyes all over and skies clear 7 jumps out any direction. He knew we knew he was solo cause if he wanted to watch us continue to rat...had all the chances in the world cause rat we still did. So off he went to scare people elsewhere.


Fair point - but there are plenty of areas in the game where this doesn't work. Namely, nullsec systems within jump range of highsec, lowsec, or NPC nullsec with station systems. And that's a lot of systems - possibly around 30%-40% of all nullsec.

The effect you get is that you cannot scout out if there's a hostile cloaker gang in jump range, because they operate from NPC stations. If you know that in that NPC station over yonder, there are 30 people online, 14 of which are red and another 10 which are neutral, you essentially know nothing at all - except that that's room enough for more than one potential covert ops gang potentially waiting for a cyno.

Party Scout
Posted - 2010.07.15 16:33:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Admiral Perimeter
Edited by: Admiral Perimeter on 15/07/2010 16:28:00
Edited by: Admiral Perimeter on 15/07/2010 16:23:43
Ok, it seems a lot of people have been discussing my post on the first page suggesting that AFK cloaking is fine because it is psychological warfare only.

I feel I need to address some of the responses to it.

I would like to reiterate that an AFK cloaker is 100% harmless. For one, he is cloaked and therefore cannot target or harm anyone, and for two, he is not even at his keyboard. THIS NEEDS NO COUNTER AS THERE IS NOTHING TO COUNTER.

If an AFK Cloaker sits in a system and then finds a lone ratter and pops a cyno to bring in a SC and several carriers, the problem is the SC and the carriers in your system, not the AFK cloaker. Your solution should be to bring 2 SCs and more carriers.

That SC and Carrier can get into your system in any number of ways.

I've lived in 0.0 for 90% of my Eve playing time, and I've dealt with AFK cloakers throughout it.

Any alliance comfortable enough living in 0.0 and capable enough to defend their systems has nothing to fear from these afk cloakers.






Yes, because you can keep 2-3 carriers on every system there is an AFk cloaker (or close). 1 frig hull to keep 2-3 cap ships on standby. And best part, he's not even at the keyboard! He's not even playing the game. Awesome game mechanic, simply awesome.

Admiral Perimeter
Posted - 2010.07.15 16:37:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Party Scout
Originally by: Admiral Perimeter
Edited by: Admiral Perimeter on 15/07/2010 16:28:00
Edited by: Admiral Perimeter on 15/07/2010 16:23:43
Ok, it seems a lot of people have been discussing my post on the first page suggesting that AFK cloaking is fine because it is psychological warfare only.

I feel I need to address some of the responses to it.

I would like to reiterate that an AFK cloaker is 100% harmless. For one, he is cloaked and therefore cannot target or harm anyone, and for two, he is not even at his keyboard. THIS NEEDS NO COUNTER AS THERE IS NOTHING TO COUNTER.

If an AFK Cloaker sits in a system and then finds a lone ratter and pops a cyno to bring in a SC and several carriers, the problem is the SC and the carriers in your system, not the AFK cloaker. Your solution should be to bring 2 SCs and more carriers.

That SC and Carrier can get into your system in any number of ways.

I've lived in 0.0 for 90% of my Eve playing time, and I've dealt with AFK cloakers throughout it.

Any alliance comfortable enough living in 0.0 and capable enough to defend their systems has nothing to fear from these afk cloakers.






And best part, he's not even at the keyboard! He's not even playing the game.


Then why are you so afraid of him?

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2010.07.15 16:39:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Ishina Fel

For me, this crosses the line between playing the game and abusing the game.

every character logged in belongs to a paid account. So if I decide to train an alt for that and having it logged in all the time, so its my (legal!) choice.

Party Scout
Posted - 2010.07.15 16:43:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Ishina Fel

For me, this crosses the line between playing the game and abusing the game.

every character logged in belongs to a paid account. So if I decide to train an alt for that and having it logged in all the time, so its my (legal!) choice.


What? no one here is suggesting options to log you off or anything like that. If you want to stay logged in 23/7, that fine, your choice, and perfectly valid. Did you even read the OP?

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2010.07.15 16:45:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Party Scout
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Ishina Fel

For me, this crosses the line between playing the game and abusing the game.

every character logged in belongs to a paid account. So if I decide to train an alt for that and having it logged in all the time, so its my (legal!) choice.


What? no one here is suggesting options to log you off or anything like that. If you want to stay logged in 23/7, that fine, your choice, and perfectly valid. Did you even read the OP?


yes, he wants an anti-cloaker device, which would unclock you. f*ck off with that ideas.

Party Scout
Posted - 2010.07.15 16:49:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Admiral Perimeter


Then why are you so afraid of him?


If I knew he wasn't at the keyboard, then it would not be a problem, hence the OPs suggestion. Did you even read it? It has very little effect on the cloaker if he's at the keyboard, and if I know he's at the keyboard, then game on :)

I'm here to play, it seems the AFK cloaker is not. 0.0 is a full PVP area where I can "force" people to play with me (you know, unconsentual PVP and all), but I cannot do that with the cloaker. What gives?

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2010.07.15 16:51:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 15/07/2010 16:52:12

this is the cloak is for. For preventing being forced to do something.

Party Scout
Posted - 2010.07.15 16:54:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Party Scout
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Ishina Fel

For me, this crosses the line between playing the game and abusing the game.

every character logged in belongs to a paid account. So if I decide to train an alt for that and having it logged in all the time, so its my (legal!) choice.


What? no one here is suggesting options to log you off or anything like that. If you want to stay logged in 23/7, that fine, your choice, and perfectly valid. Did you even read the OP?


yes, he wants an anti-cloaker device, which would unclock you. f*ck off with that ideas.


What? afraid to PVP? in 0.0??? are you kidding me? are you here to play? or what? The thing does not even affect you much if you are at the keys, no one is destroying cloaks.

It seems you are not here to play. What is your purpose, grief? Insult in the forums? what?

Party Scout
Posted - 2010.07.15 17:00:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 15/07/2010 16:52:12

this is the cloak is for. For preventing being forced to do something.


No, that's what you log out for. If you log in the game, then you are there to play. Accept the consequences. This is EVE, hardcore PVP game extraordinaire, but all I see are people running from that and finding ways to grief from complete safety. Awesome... But that is not EVE. It even has mechanics to force you to PVP in high sec (wardecs) so why not this? boy... how brave you are.

SurrenderMonkey
Posted - 2010.07.15 17:04:00 - [52]
 

Step 1. Identify something that is broken.
Step 2. Propose a fix.

You skipped step 1.

Note that "I don't like it!" is not a synonym for "is broken".

Admiral Perimeter
Posted - 2010.07.15 17:05:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Admiral Perimeter on 15/07/2010 17:05:49
Originally by: Party Scout
Originally by: Admiral Perimeter


Then why are you so afraid of him?


If I knew he wasn't at the keyboard, then it would not be a problem, hence the OPs suggestion. Did you even read it? It has very little effect on the cloaker if he's at the keyboard, and if I know he's at the keyboard, then game on :)

I'm here to play, it seems the AFK cloaker is not. 0.0 is a full PVP area where I can "force" people to play with me (you know, unconsentual PVP and all), but I cannot do that with the cloaker. What gives?


I've read this thread, and many like it in the years I've played Eve. This argument is not new.

The solution the OP gives is highly problematic.

What happens when this device pulses when I, a legitimate cloaker(by your standards), am about to uncloak and engage my prey?

What happens when I, flying my blockade runner full of POS fuel and ammo for our staging POS in hostile territory, am flying through a gate camp when the device pulses?

What happens when I am working on a fleet warp in on a hostile POS in in my Covert Ops or Recon ship when this device pulses?

Why does my game have to be compromised because you cannot defend your system properly?

Party Scout
Posted - 2010.07.15 17:09:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Step 1. Identify something that is broken.
Step 2. Propose a fix.

You skipped step 1.

Note that "I don't like it!" is not a synonym for "is broken".


The problem is you have the means to keep ships in system on guard, on stand-by (AFK cloaker). All I want is the same thing (decloak pulse, or something similar).

If you want to keep me on constant vigilance in a system, that is fine. But I want something to keep YOU in constant vigilance as well. It's called balance.

So there you go. Want to play with me? I want to play with you too. Clear enough?

SurrenderMonkey
Posted - 2010.07.15 17:12:00 - [55]
 

Again, that things are not as you want them to be is not the same thing as being broken.

Party Scout
Posted - 2010.07.15 17:14:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Admiral Perimeter
Edited by: Admiral Perimeter on 15/07/2010 17:05:49
Originally by: Party Scout
Originally by: Admiral Perimeter


Then why are you so afraid of him?


If I knew he wasn't at the keyboard, then it would not be a problem, hence the OPs suggestion. Did you even read it? It has very little effect on the cloaker if he's at the keyboard, and if I know he's at the keyboard, then game on :)

I'm here to play, it seems the AFK cloaker is not. 0.0 is a full PVP area where I can "force" people to play with me (you know, unconsentual PVP and all), but I cannot do that with the cloaker. What gives?


I've read this thread, and many like it in the years I've played Eve. This argument is not new.

The solution the OP gives is highly problematic.

What happens when this device pulses when I, a legitimate cloaker(by your standards), am about to uncloak and engage my prey?

What happens when I, flying my blockade runner full of POS fuel and ammo for our staging POS in hostile territory, am flying through a gate camp when the device pulses?

What happens when I am working on a fleet warp in on a hostile POS in in my Covert Ops or Recon ship when this device pulses?

Why does my game have to be compromised because you cannot defend your system properly?


What happens when it rains and I do not have an umbrella? what happens if I trip and break my arm? what happens when I go take a dump and there is no toilet paper (that one is bad)?.

It's called life, its stuff that happens that makes things interesting. If everything just came out as you planned it, it would be boring. Those are just unaccountables that happen. Same thing could happen on your blockade runner if a frig just happened to fly close to you while lining up. Hey, it's life, crap happens.

Admiral Perimeter
Posted - 2010.07.15 17:15:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Party Scout
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Step 1. Identify something that is broken.
Step 2. Propose a fix.

You skipped step 1.

Note that "I don't like it!" is not a synonym for "is broken".


The problem is you have the means to keep ships in system on guard, on stand-by (AFK cloaker). All I want is the same thing (decloak pulse, or something similar).

If you want to keep me on constant vigilance in a system, that is fine. But I want something to keep YOU in constant vigilance as well. It's called balance.

So there you go. Want to play with me? I want to play with you too. Clear enough?


What about pilots who jump clone into your 0.0 stations? Do you want a counter to that too? Do they keep your entire system on lock down as well? I mean, they have the potential to undock in a cyno ship and drop a fleet into your system as well right?

Should we implement a system of popping out anyone docked in a red or neutral station after 5 minutes?

Admiral Perimeter
Posted - 2010.07.15 17:20:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Party Scout
Originally by: Admiral Perimeter
Edited by: Admiral Perimeter on 15/07/2010 17:05:49
Originally by: Party Scout
Originally by: Admiral Perimeter


Then why are you so afraid of him?


If I knew he wasn't at the keyboard, then it would not be a problem, hence the OPs suggestion. Did you even read it? It has very little effect on the cloaker if he's at the keyboard, and if I know he's at the keyboard, then game on :)

I'm here to play, it seems the AFK cloaker is not. 0.0 is a full PVP area where I can "force" people to play with me (you know, unconsentual PVP and all), but I cannot do that with the cloaker. What gives?


I've read this thread, and many like it in the years I've played Eve. This argument is not new.

The solution the OP gives is highly problematic.

What happens when this device pulses when I, a legitimate cloaker(by your standards), am about to uncloak and engage my prey?

What happens when I, flying my blockade runner full of POS fuel and ammo for our staging POS in hostile territory, am flying through a gate camp when the device pulses?

What happens when I am working on a fleet warp in on a hostile POS in in my Covert Ops or Recon ship when this device pulses?

Why does my game have to be compromised because you cannot defend your system properly?


What happens when it rains and I do not have an umbrella? what happens if I trip and break my arm? what happens when I go take a dump and there is no toilet paper (that one is bad)?.

It's called life, its stuff that happens that makes things interesting. If everything just came out as you planned it, it would be boring. Those are just unaccountables that happen. Same thing could happen on your blockade runner if a frig just happened to fly close to you while lining up. Hey, it's life, crap happens.


With this incredibly weak argument, would it not be just as easy to say "Hey, it's life, crap happens" when you lose your ratting ship due to a no longer AFK, nor cloaked, AFK Cloaker?

In fact, I think that would require no changes at all. Very Happy


Party Scout
Posted - 2010.07.15 17:22:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Again, that things are not as you want them to be is not the same thing as being broken.


So being able to present a threat in a system from complete safety is somehow not broken?

I can counter almost any threat in the game. There is something I can do. Economic threats, direct attack threats, heck, I can even respond to evemail death threats. Yet, I cannot respond to that specific threat, and you say its fine.

You threaten me, I want to threaten you as well. Give and take. You seem to want to give, but not want to take. How is that not broken?

Again, no one is asking for the removal of cloaks or anything similar. You can still fly in and pop a Cyno, or gather intel, or whatever you want to do under the protection of your cloak. That is fine. But you have to be vigilant. You stop being careful, you pop. That's what happens in 0.0... Or that is what's supposed to happen... You stop being careful, you die.

Admiral Perimeter
Posted - 2010.07.15 17:27:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Party Scout

I can counter almost any threat in the game. There is something I can do. Economic threats, direct attack threats, heck, I can even respond to evemail death threats. Yet, I cannot respond to that specific threat, and you say its fine.



Again, I would like to ask, what specific threat does a ship which cannot target or shoot at anyone pose?

If you can answer this question adequately, only then, will your argument have any merit whatsoever.

I, for one, have never seen an AFK Cloaker harm anyone.


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