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Gaogan
Gallente
Solar Storm
Sev3rance
Posted - 2010.07.14 15:45:00 - [1]
 

It seems that CCP really screwed up with PI. The only things that use it other than pos fuels are the building of pos and modules, sov structures, and outposts. How often are any of these done? Not very. As a result there is already a vast oversupply that has caused a crash in the value of pos and sov structures. Infrastructure hubs are already falling under 300 mil each and show no sign of stopping.

Something needs to be done. More uses for these materials need introduced to consume the supply. How about some blueprints to combine the stuff with some minerals and produce some of the horribly undersupplied salvage bits, like armor plates?

Imuran
Zentor Industries
Posted - 2010.07.14 15:51:00 - [2]
 

Dont forget all the items that are used in T2 construction

Greedies
Posted - 2010.07.14 15:51:00 - [3]
 

Many Tech II prints use PI products
Rocket Fuel
Robotics
Construction Blocks
Consumer Electronics
Miniature Electronics
Superconductors
Synthetic Oil
Transmitter

Mini Tee
Posted - 2010.07.14 15:53:00 - [4]
 

When they are so oversupplied then why are prices rising ?

Zenon Mu
Advanced Assemblies and Sciences
Posted - 2010.07.14 15:57:00 - [5]
 

No. CCP really screwed up on the consumption side. As long as major wars do not happen (due to lag, sov mechanics, blob politics etc) and such no big demand for TCUs, SBUs and replacement POS is created, PI goods keep piling up.

Grozen
Caldari
Titan Core
Posted - 2010.07.14 15:58:00 - [6]
 

and ppl say ccp need to boost ex ratesLaughing

Zenon Mu
Advanced Assemblies and Sciences
Posted - 2010.07.14 16:17:00 - [7]
 

And, big alliances also have the capacities to produce everything in-house, without any reason for Jita.

Dr Nefarius
Posted - 2010.07.14 16:32:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Zenon Mu
And, big alliances also have the capacities to produce everything in-house, without any reason for Jita.


Yeah, that sounds really unbalanced. Big alliances beeing self sufficient. Mad

Make them beg on their knees for the highsec bears to come and save them. Neutral


pmchem
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.07.14 16:32:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Mini Tee
When they are so oversupplied then why are prices rising ?


Prices of previously npc seeded, stockpiled P2/P3 items have been rising the past few weeks because it's only rational for them to be priced the same as any other P2/P3 in the long term -- and they started off underpriced due to the stockpiles. In the past few days, those have crashed as some speculators are cashing out to take profits. Many are still underpriced, and good buys.

Prices of non-npc-seeded goods have a steady downward trend. Check P4s, for example. Down, down down. Not helped at all by a current oversupply of POS due to the old reprocessing bug.

Finally, a lot of people doing PI think their 'time is free' and are willing to sell advanced stuff for a loss compared to its inputs. This is more downward pressure on the market as a whole (kinda like macro mining is for minerals).

Butterless Toast
Posted - 2010.07.14 17:12:00 - [10]
 

In addition to people trying to play the market with stockpiles, there are a also many stockpiles of goods in terms of POS fuels and T2 production which people bought to protect themselves from the unstable-starting-out PI market. Until people burn through their consumable stockpiles, their demand won't show on the market. I personally stocked up with several months' worth of supplies.

SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
Posted - 2010.07.14 17:24:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Gaogan
How about some blueprints.......


CCP have already said they are have a team of people looking to expand PI. There are still NPC seeded items which could easily be used in manufacturing which are not. Most noticeably, Planetary Command Centers, Moon Probes, Outpost upgrades, and even Cans... Sure we have Station Warehouse can's but what about BPOs for Giant Secure's.... They are sourced from NPCs only.

There is also the extensive list of items required to deploy an outpost.

Plutonium
Carbon <--- Which has an PI Tab if you do a show info
Hydrogen Batteries
Electronic Parts
Quafe
Janitors
Slaves

Lets not forget.... Implants... Which is a touchy subject because they are supplied by LP Store, but why not leave the "Named" Implants at the LP store, and produce BPOs for just.. Limited, Beta, Basic, Standard, Improved. No reason not to have those player manufactured.

PI had one bad mark on it... The buying power of people speculating. The day Trany was released HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of ISK was sunk into buying POS Structures, melting them down, and either selling/producing other items. It was a genius mark on CCP to sink that much ISK in a single patch. Then after, experience the exactly that again, hundreds of billions again sunk as people purchased MILLIONS of NPC items. I would LOVE to see a report with the amount of ISK SUNK that week It's got to be over 1 trillion.

To name a few "NPC" sold Items with potential, I've also listed what I would make them from planets.

Antibiotics -> P1/P2
Holoreels -> P2
Small Arms -> P2/P3
Carbon -> P0
Electronic Parts -> P2/P3
Hydrochloric Acid -> P0/P1/P2
Hydrogen Batteries -> P2
Soil -> P0
Toxic Waste -> P0

There is more but the list above is a nice combination of items. It is clear CCP obviously where focusing on POSES and Outpost EGG Construction. Things like Electronic Parts and Hydrogen Batteries are still used in T2 construction. So it's clear CCP are not done with PI, they are probably waiting to see how things are going to level out before introducing more.

Red Raider
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.07.14 18:52:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Gaogan
It seems that CCP really screwed up with PI. The only things that use it other than pos fuels are the building of pos and modules, sov structures, and outposts. How often are any of these done? Not very. As a result there is already a vast oversupply that has caused a crash in the value of pos and sov structures. Infrastructure hubs are already falling under 300 mil each and show no sign of stopping.

Something needs to be done. More uses for these materials need introduced to consume the supply. How about some blueprints to combine the stuff with some minerals and produce some of the horribly undersupplied salvage bits, like armor plates?



Yes, everyone should stop producing PI products immediately.

Cool

Quantessa
Posted - 2010.07.14 20:13:00 - [13]
 

It is likely that a number of factors will change over time.

First PI is the new shiny, it was the major feature of the most recent patch. Many people got into it and will get bored. Certainly people will stop running 30 min or 5 hour cycles. Updating all your harvesters 4 times a day is just meh.

Major nullsec war would really stimulate the market. One finished just before PI was introduced. It will take time before the next one starts. This would of course be hugely improved if CCP improved lag and loading in large battles.

Next stockpiles need to get used up. Nullsec alliances have huge stockpiles of structures not least because the rather sloppy implementation of PI allowed structures to be purchased from the NPC, recycled for parts, then those parts could be used to build more valuable structures. I doubt there are many serious T2 industrialists without a year's supply of parts and POS fuel.

Another thing that will happen over the next couple of years is a broadening of PI's remit. Possibly planetary buildings will be a part of DUST so instead of placing an extractor you could place a bunker PIN that your consoleers could operate in when defending your PI setup. Perhaps command centres and other NPC goods will move into player production. At the moment PI isn't significant enough to be worth hiring a load of mercs for, if an alliance wiped out your POS manufacture chain you could just import cheap POS from Jita. They have to make what happens on planets in Eve more significant.

All those are factors which would suggest profitability will rise. (It may still be bottoming out though for now).

The big thing that could destroy PI profitability is widespread macroing. No way would it be worth doing if you're being undercut by someone who gets 46 30 minute cycles per day by botting. On the face of it the interaction looks bottable - I just hope CCP have something clever up their sleeves to stop this aspect of the economy being damaged.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.07.14 20:19:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Quantessa

The big thing that could destroy PI profitability is widespread macroing. No way would it be worth doing if you're being undercut by someone who gets 46 30 minute cycles per day by botting. On the face of it the interaction looks bottable - I just hope CCP have something clever up their sleeves to stop this aspect of the economy being damaged.


Knowing CCP, they would probably require you to enter a captcha on every extractor to start it. Sounds like something they would do anyway.

SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
Posted - 2010.07.14 21:12:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Breaker77
Knowing CCP, they would probably require you to enter a captcha on every extractor to start it. Sounds like something they would do anyway.


You know what, that wouldn't bother me if I could do group all my extractors. So I only had to do it once.

That's saying a lot right there, "I'd rather enter a random group of numbers and letters that are difficult to read and have all my extractors linked to it, then double click each extractor twice..."

I think I might suggest that on the Assembly Hall YARRRR!!

IceFyre S18
Zulu Labs
Zulu People
Posted - 2010.07.14 21:24:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: SencneS
Originally by: Breaker77
Knowing CCP, they would probably require you to enter a captcha on every extractor to start it. Sounds like something they would do anyway.


You know what, that wouldn't bother me if I could do group all my extractors. So I only had to do it once.

That's saying a lot right there, "I'd rather enter a random group of numbers and letters that are difficult to read and have all my extractors linked to it, then double click each extractor twice..."

I think I might suggest that on the Assembly Hall YARRRR!!


+1

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.07.14 21:26:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: SencneS

That's saying a lot right there, "I'd rather enter a random group of numbers and letters that are difficult to read and have all my extractors linked to it, then double click each extractor twice..."

I think I might suggest that on the Assembly Hall YARRRR!!


I'd support it just for the extractor grouping

mental maverick
Percussive Diplomacy
Posted - 2010.07.14 21:39:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: SencneS
You know what, that wouldn't bother me if I could do group all my extractors. So I only had to do it once.

That's saying a lot right there, "I'd rather enter a random group of numbers and letters that are difficult to read and have all my extractors linked to it, then double click each extractor twice..."

I think I might suggest that on the Assembly Hall YARRRR!!


Not a bad idea at all tbh, it would still be a lot less time consuming/frustrating than restarting all of your extractors one by one. All for it tbh.

Wait, what just happened? Did I just agree with SencneS on PI related stuff?ShockedVery Happy

SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
Posted - 2010.07.14 22:57:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: SencneS on 14/07/2010 22:57:53
Originally by: mental maverick
Wait, what just happened? Did I just agree with SencneS on PI related stuff?ShockedVery Happy


Now is your chance to set that in stone, permanent for all of EVE History :)

Edit:- Linked.

mental maverick
Percussive Diplomacy
Posted - 2010.07.14 23:36:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: SencneS
Now is your chance to set that in stone, permanent for all of EVE History :)

Edit:- Linked.


Done.

Now would you pls keep future posting at this level so i dont have to come after you againWink

General Bezelbub
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.15 00:08:00 - [21]
 

Large towers for 160mil each, I love it. Go Go crash

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2010.07.15 01:13:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 15/07/2010 01:15:31
Reasons :

Supply side :
A lot of fuel stocpiles like a lot of people stocked POS fuel for yea or so.
Millions of guidance systems stockpiled. And many Other NPC items
PI super low barrier of entry.
Many hardcore players that trained 10 alts just for PI ( thanks gods (CCP) that we need to restart each extractor, otherwise PI stuff would be worth exatcly 0 )
NO PVP on plantes .
PI stuff dropping from missions ( like 1000 planetary vehicles !) or from NPC haulers.
Building for Corp crowd.
Materials I extract are free.

Demand Side :

Not really many POS or SOV structures needed.
Static 0.0

My predictions are thing are only going downwords. So if anyone invested into NPC items from before Tyranis and are excpecting MEGA profits must wait unitl next changes.

The thing may change when fuel and stuff for t2 production stockpiles are run. But it may last at least a year or so.

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.15 04:32:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: SencneS
Originally by: Breaker77
Knowing CCP, they would probably require you to enter a captcha on every extractor to start it. Sounds like something they would do anyway.


You know what, that wouldn't bother me if I could do group all my extractors. So I only had to do it once.

That's saying a lot right there, "I'd rather enter a random group of numbers and letters that are difficult to read and have all my extractors linked to it, then double click each extractor twice..."

I think I might suggest that on the Assembly Hall YARRRR!!

This would actually in a way be part of the PI Omnibus proposal part that talks about 'less clickfest, more thinkfest' thing.

Once no one is really clicking themselves to death for maximal production then most of the macro-able parts are gone.

Ari Chu
Posted - 2010.07.15 06:16:00 - [24]
 

I'm cool with using the random letters to prevent macros, in combination with a "set all extractors" option.. Especially if the set all extractors had a time delay that scaled based on the number of extractors (like 1 minute per extractor).

The complaints of click fest would disappear, the system would still be largely immune to macros, and it would remain just painful enough to prevent prices crashing more than they already are.

cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2010.07.15 06:17:00 - [25]
 

The problem I already have is that PI is boring!

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2010.07.15 07:01:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: cosmoray
The problem I already have is that PI is boring!
But it helps to balance out the heart-shattering nerve-racking excitement of:

- Mining
- Ice Harvesting
- Hauling tons of crap
- Setting up factory jobs
- Setting up research jobs
- Reading most of the stuff on EO Forums
- Getting the lint out of my navel.

See?

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.07.15 07:11:00 - [27]
 

Ya but realy who did not see this coming? Realy? I mite train for PI in one or two years mite.ugh

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2010.07.15 07:35:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Rip Minner
Ya but realy who did not see this coming? Realy?
I did.

I was kept skeptical as far as PI was, and is, concerned. However no matter how skeptical I am I still try to give whatever CCP brings out an honest try.

Fundamentally, without us hammering at any new feature CCP will be hindered from gaining data and ideas to make something work. Or to drop it entirely. Equally by doing it I'm in a position of actually knowing, not just speculating, how much PI sucks (or doesn't suck as it were).

So in that regards, oh my yes, I saw it coming twice over. That PI would likely suck and losers would claim prescient knowledge over it even though they actually have little idea of if it really does suck.

/Jedi hand wave

Oops, please don't think I'm calling you a loser.

Shidhe
Minmatar
The Babylon5 Consortuim
Posted - 2010.07.15 10:00:00 - [29]
 

PI needs more help. The biggest consumer of PI should be PI - keeping planets happy and economically active. They should use consumer electronics, foods, etc. Maintaining planets should be the key to soverignity in a system. Research should be moved from POS to planets (where, logically, the engineers would live). More applications of PI need to be found, otherwise there will be problems with dust.

Di Mulle
Posted - 2010.07.15 16:31:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Di Mulle on 15/07/2010 16:44:38
Originally by: Shidhe
PI needs more help.

Yep, but not at the expense of other areas of the game. Unless you want to make CCP pay for PI products directly in ISK - which would be stupid, you can get only so much for it without eradicating other fields of economic activity. Or, more exactly, you need to cannibalize other areas if you don't want to pay in ISK even more than now - because PI already is an ISK faucet.

In other words, if you want PI to have same share as T1+cap production has - you need to move lots of mining into planets and thus, largely kill the mining. And so on.

Only other possibility is to introduce completely new category of eagerly demanded goods. Basically, new ships. I don't think EVE needs T4 right now.

Even then you can't make PI share very big. If you hold onto key principle of EVE - nothing gets completely obsolete - you will be struck by a law of diminishing part of a pie. As long as new stuff do not completely replaces old one (as in many other games), but just supplements it, its' share can't be really big just by definition. And the more resource producing mechanisms you introduce, the less share they get.

So the fact that PI is not the biggest printing machine largely is not because CCP failed designing it, in opposite, they designed it according to key EVE principles.

Originally by: Shidhe
The biggest consumer of PI should be PI - keeping planets happy and economically active. They should use consumer electronics, foods, etc.


That is oxymoron. It doesn't matter what is recycled "within" PI, unless you enjoy the process itself without getting paid. If you need to invest 1 mil in PI equipment, then make billions of stuff to keep workers happy in order for them to produce 10 mil worth of product - in the end you spent 1 mil, time and got 10 mil. If you need to buy 1 bil worth of baby dolls to entertain workers, you will not even start that business.

Originally by: Shidhe
Maintaining planets should be the key to soverignity in a system.


In no way it shouldn't. First, here again we would have cannibalizing of other game play, shooting, if put it simple.
Even more, sovereignty is a major force driving player conflict which is an engine of EVE - but there is no conflict in PI. Same can be said about moving action from POS to planets, you just delete the source of conflict.

Now you will probably tell me - oh, don't worry, there will be Dust...

Well, Dust doesn't solve anything, it only makes it worse. Why I should care about sov, if my actions as a pilot does not influence it ? It is like play CS and be unable to shoot, because someone hasn't finished a level in Tetris.

Helping PI would be making it funny and challenging. I.e., everybody can enter, not everybody makes profit, because you need to think in a dynamic environment.

But now this is a hardest thing to do...




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