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blankseplocked On CCP, The CSM, And Excellence
 
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Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.14 05:07:00 - [1]
 

Google tells me that "Excellence is the state or quality of excelling. Particularly in the field of business and organizations, excellence is considered to be an important value, and a goal to be pursued". It goes on to tell me that "excelling is to surpass someone or something; to be better or do better than someone or something; To be much better than others". So - Excellence is to be much better than others.

The recent CSM minutes have left many - including me - feeling incredibly depressed. Really, has CCP given up on us? Have they given up on Excellence? No polish, no bug fixes, no exploit fixes - nothing for 18 months.. until these unwanted Dust/Incarna features are released?

Well... maybe they haven't given up on Excellence. You just have to look at it from the right direction to see it. Let's start by examining some Excellent things that Eve has:

The Player Run Economy. I know that certain people, usually people who have spent lots of time looking at the market or economy can potentially dispute the "player run" and "economy" parts. Yes, CCP controls the ISK faucets/sinks and the material inputs... but the players do the rest. We even have a real economist studying the game economy. Really... it is Excellence.

Epic Alliances, Wars, And Fleets. I remember a long time ago, when I was in Corus of Dawn (which became YouWhat) there was an alliance mail detailing the BOB vs NC war and all the implications of what each battle meant. The person who wrote it obviously had a spy ring, and come to find out that spy rings, epic tempers, personality flaws, personality cults, emo rage, and an enormous amount of player blood, sweat, and tears are all but the start of this. Really... it is Excellence.

I could go on, but for the sake of brevity I'll stop here. We can all point to our favorite fight, mission, loot drop, blueprint, ship, espionage, corp theft, etc. That's why we're here. Because we love Eve. And now we - through the CSM - are saying that Eve isn't Excellent. We point at Fleet Lag, the new Sov system, Faction Warfare, COSMOS, Low Sec, and much more. Things that to us reek of being unfinished. And we look at the resources taken from this and given to Dust/Incarna and think CCP has given up on Excellence.

But I think that CCP is still devoted to Excellence - a dream that is all consuming and perfect. The desire to go anywhere, do anything from shooting people on planets to serving drinks in bars. Should CCP truly restrict the sandbox to purely Internet Spaceships? Well, I don't think so - so long as they don't neglect Internet Spaceships.

I think that what we have is a failure to communicate properly. Most of the major outstanding problems mentioned in the CSM minutes are pretty minor on the whole. Fleet lag is killer, and resources are already being devoted to it. Faction warfare exploits are rampant and low sec sucks - and CCP doesn't deny these things. They do want to fix them. But they don't have the resources to do it Excellently.

What I'm going to argue here is that CCP does have the resources to fix these things with Excellence. Many people in this game are experts on their fields of interest - and these are untapped resources that can be used to remove the overwhelming bulk of the "grunt work" from the teams. We can come up with solutions that can be completed by a scrum team in weeks instead of months.

What this really gives us - all of us, including CCP - is the Excellence we seek. And nobody really gets left in the rain, and Dust/Incarna pipelines aren't appreciably taken away from.

CCP: Delivering 80% now is better Excellence than Perfection after Dust and Incarna!

-Liang

Genya Arikaido
Posted - 2010.07.14 05:38:00 - [2]
 

What you have is a catch-22 situation in that most of us who have been playing EVE forever (I know, I know...) and hoping for fixes, are so far gone as to having much faith in CCP that we just play the game and find a mediocrum of fun in what is.

We could write up big and impressive ideas to collaborate on to improve the design of EVE in areas we know well, in fact, we've done it. I can think of two topics off the top of my head...one on needed corp tool/ui improvements and another on POS functionality and UI improvements. Oh, and did I mention that they've been there for *years* and not a bit of these topics have been implemented or even discussed with us by CCP?

CCP, your original player base (2003, 2004) is either working at CCP, quit, or so apathetic we don't care what you do anymore. As long as I can ctrl-click and F1-F4, EVE's working.

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2010.07.14 05:41:00 - [3]
 

I agree that EVE is excellent, and apparently CSM are a bunch of self-important complainers. I mean its one thing for them to denounce CCP here on the forums, another thing entirely to show up in person and tell the human beings over there that they're failures because they haven't solved lag or something.

Asuka Smith
Gallente
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Posted - 2010.07.14 05:58:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
I agree that EVE is excellent, and apparently CSM are a bunch of self-important complainers. I mean its one thing for them to denounce CCP here on the forums, another thing entirely to show up in person and tell the human beings over there that they're failures because they haven't solved lag or something.


Are you Lana Torrin?

Ascendic
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.14 06:19:00 - [5]
 

Here is one giant hole in your logic. Last time I checked, fleet battles were borked and have been borked for 7 months.

Still not fixed. And still not going to get fixed. Yep thats right the #1 advertising feature of eve are these epic wars which are currently unplayable.
Rolling Eyes
Sounds excellent to me.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.14 06:21:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Ascendic

Still not fixed. And still not going to get fixed. Yep thats right the #1 advertising feature of eve are these epic wars which are currently unplayable.



While I completely understand your point of view here, you have to understand that CCP didn't say they weren't going to fix fleet lag - instead they said that they are working on it. My post is mostly aimed at the overwhelmingly frustrating parts of the CSM minutes where CCP isn't quite getting the optimal amount of Excellence.

There's a lot that can be done to improve the game with pretty minimal effort.

-Liang

Kyra Felann
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.07.14 06:45:00 - [7]
 

The only part that gave me a glimmer of hope was the part about them trying to support more keyboard shortcuts in the UI and make things less clicky.

Hari Markkus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.14 06:52:00 - [8]
 

Liang Nuren is David Cameron. I wonder who is her equivalent of bumboy Clegg?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.07.14 07:50:00 - [9]
 

Minor nitpick:
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The Player Run Economy. I know that certain people, usually people who have spent lots of time looking at the market or economy can potentially dispute the "player run" and "economy" parts. Yes, CCP controls the ISK faucets/sinks and the material inputs... but the players do the rest. We even have a real economist studying the game economy. Really... it is Excellence.

CCP advertises it (for a good while now) as "Player DRIVEN Economy" (as in, "the source of motive power driving it", not "the guy behind the steering wheel"), and that is quite accurate, players are the fuel for the economy engine, while CCP is the one that controls the direction.


Back to the OP's point...

While theoretically and at first read sounding like a very reasonable idea, I seriously doubt CCP will ever be willing to "unload the grunt work" over on their players, without having a serious degree of control over them.
Just look at the CSM, which is actually more removed from the development process than those hypothetical players helping CCP SCRUM teams would be, and they still had to go through the NDA thing and talk face-to-face to really get anything even remotely done (and we already had one booted for allegedly breaking the NDA, about something so minor we don't even really know WHAT it was).
Now imagine what would happen if some of the players "doing the grunt work" would quietly let some friends or friends of friends know about possible upcoming changes nobody else in the game knows about.
Realistically speaking, I don't think it would end well if you try to do it that way.
Short of hand-picking players and actually giving them a job (which, again, I have a feeling they don't really have the budget for) in order to be able to keep them on a tight leash, it's nearly pointless to even fantasize about it, sadly.
Sure, it could maybe work for some specific areas of the game, but since a lot of things are linked together in ways which only become apparent later on... well, you probably get the idea.

TL;DR :
It was a very idealistic and nice idea, but the practical implementation of it would be a total balls-breaker.
The alternative of throwing more money at it would be feasible, however most likely not budgeted for.

TheBlueMonkey
Gallente
Fags R Us
Posted - 2010.07.14 08:32:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren

Words that sound like a CCP PR alt



You're far too idealistic mate, there's no way the player base could be trusted with specifics of the game.

What CCP need to do is have members of staff that actually play the game and not just plsying the game in jove space\empire\solo.

Create an alt on the db, give it what ever age you want to give it, faux a back storey for kms etc (surely that's not too hard with direcet access to the server) apply to some of the larger alliances and come fly fleet then tell us there's no lag.

Go run cosmos missions and tell us they're fine.
Go join a pirate corp and trawl lowsec.
Go and actually try doing any of the things that we keep screaming about.

gah, I'm trapped in the circle again, this isn't suppose to start till monday ¬¬

**** it, I'm gonna go play civ 1

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.14 08:50:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: TheBlueMonkey
You're far too idealistic mate, there's no way the player base could be trusted with specifics of the game.


Well... I think that there are parts of the player base that could be trusted. Ultimately the selected players' responsibility would be to come up with solutions which are simple to implement - it doesn't have to be super fancy just something that'll make it work until CCP can get around to making it Perfect - which they won't do because 80-90% of the benefit can come from a 5% solution at this point.

Its not that I don't agree entirely with your post.... but I got into a "discussion" with my wife and realized that maybe the source of CCP's problem is that they want perfection while we want something that works. And how can we get that - hopefully without further alienating the CCP development staff?

Also:
Originally by: TheBlueMonkey
Words that sound like a CCP PR alt


Laughing If only that were true I think things would be a lot better on many fronts.

-Liang

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.07.14 09:20:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Well... I think that there are parts of the player base that could be trusted.


While the original intentions may have been altruistic, over time, it will breed nepotism accusations and further segregate the community into an inner circle/outer circle camps. Nice idea, but it doesn't work quite well with us humans.

I must admit, there are a LOT of talented players out there that would happily spend their hobby time supporting and making Eve better in numerous ways. This is an untapped resource. What may be acceptable is a form of an oversight committee, leading, guiding and cataloguing this resource.

In the simplest term, think of it as a heavily/draconianly moderated F & I forum with mentors and heavy devs feedback.
You need to get the culture going before the rest of the pack will follow.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.07.14 09:26:00 - [13]
 

Rather than talking about how the players might be able to provide better solutions, why don't we come up with better solutions? That's what the features & ideas forum is for, after all.

I too would love it if the CSM was taken seriously by CCP as an actual stakeholder, in the order of at least a "chicken" in the typical Scrum methodology "pigs & chickens" scenario. It's a fact of life that people will be tempted to abuse their privileges - T20 did it that we know of, and two CSM members have broken their NDA agreement that we know of. These are just identified risks that CCP needs to deal with - many of their developers also play the game, so it's going to happen again - and not try to over-insulate themselves from by keeping the CSM at arm's length.

In the meantime, keep trying to come up with suggestions as to how faction warfare, lowsec and nullsec can all be "fixed" in terms of gameplay, and trust CCP to solve the technical problems of making huge fleet fights playable.

Features & Ideas, Assembly Hall, CSM - these are the tools we already have at our disposal to change this game for the better.

Zartrader
Posted - 2010.07.14 11:58:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Minor nitpick:
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The Player Run Economy. I know that certain people, usually people who have spent lots of time looking at the market or economy can potentially dispute the "player run" and "economy" parts. Yes, CCP controls the ISK faucets/sinks and the material inputs... but the players do the rest. We even have a real economist studying the game economy. Really... it is Excellence.

CCP advertises it (for a good while now) as "Player DRIVEN Economy" (as in, "the source of motive power driving it", not "the guy behind the steering wheel"), and that is quite accurate, players are the fuel for the economy engine, while CCP is the one that controls the direction.


Back to the OP's point...

While theoretically and at first read sounding like a very reasonable idea, I seriously doubt CCP will ever be willing to "unload the grunt work" over on their players, without having a serious degree of control over them.
Just look at the CSM, which is actually more removed from the development process than those hypothetical players helping CCP SCRUM teams would be, and they still had to go through the NDA thing and talk face-to-face to really get anything even remotely done (and we already had one booted for allegedly breaking the NDA, about something so minor we don't even really know WHAT it was).
Now imagine what would happen if some of the players "doing the grunt work" would quietly let some friends or friends of friends know about possible upcoming changes nobody else in the game knows about.
Realistically speaking, I don't think it would end well if you try to do it that way.
Short of hand-picking players and actually giving them a job (which, again, I have a feeling they don't really have the budget for) in order to be able to keep them on a tight leash, it's nearly pointless to even fantasize about it, sadly.
Sure, it could maybe work for some specific areas of the game, but since a lot of things are linked together in ways which only become apparent later on... well, you probably get the idea.

TL;DR :
It was a very idealistic and nice idea, but the practical implementation of it would be a total balls-breaker.
The alternative of throwing more money at it would be feasible, however most likely not budgeted for.



That's not the way player UI design works at all. There is absolutely no access to any server code and no confidential information is required.

It does work and its been done successfully for years. It was stated as one of the key reasons for another games growth. It simply needs a scripting language, which is very easy to amend, such as LUA. It's even free for CCP. Its a simple language that allows fonts, colours, positioning and all the elements of a UI with absolutely no change or knowledge needed of the server side code. It also very versatile as CCP can control easily any of the LUA features it does not want to use.

When I came here from the other game the first thing I noticed in EVE is how terribly designed the UI is and it puts many people off playing. That's a shame.

Many EVE players are so used to the UI now they don't always realise the shameful state of the game UI compared to even basic, free MMORPG's you get these days.

CCP MUST know this or do they only look at EVE? I can only assume they have decided its too much effort to correct. That means this game will have a limited shelf life and has no change in hell of getting beyond a certain level of subscriptions.




Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.14 12:23:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Zartrader
Originally by: Akita T
Minor nitpick:
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The Player Run Economy. I know that certain people, usually people who have spent lots of time looking at the market or economy can potentially dispute the "player run" and "economy" parts. Yes, CCP controls the ISK faucets/sinks and the material inputs... but the players do the rest. We even have a real economist studying the game economy. Really... it is Excellence.

CCP advertises it (for a good while now) as "Player DRIVEN Economy" (as in, "the source of motive power driving it", not "the guy behind the steering wheel"), and that is quite accurate, players are the fuel for the economy engine, while CCP is the one that controls the direction.


Back to the OP's point...

While theoretically and at first read sounding like a very reasonable idea, I seriously doubt CCP will ever be willing to "unload the grunt work" over on their players, without having a serious degree of control over them.
Just look at the CSM, which is actually more removed from the development process than those hypothetical players helping CCP SCRUM teams would be, and they still had to go through the NDA thing and talk face-to-face to really get anything even remotely done (and we already had one booted for allegedly breaking the NDA, about something so minor we don't even really know WHAT it was).
Now imagine what would happen if some of the players "doing the grunt work" would quietly let some friends or friends of friends know about possible upcoming changes nobody else in the game knows about.
Realistically speaking, I don't think it would end well if you try to do it that way.
Short of hand-picking players and actually giving them a job (which, again, I have a feeling they don't really have the budget for) in order to be able to keep them on a tight leash, it's nearly pointless to even fantasize about it, sadly.
Sure, it could maybe work for some specific areas of the game, but since a lot of things are linked together in ways which only become apparent later on... well, you probably get the idea.

TL;DR :
It was a very idealistic and nice idea, but the practical implementation of it would be a total balls-breaker.
The alternative of throwing more money at it would be feasible, however most likely not budgeted for.



That's not the way player UI design works at all. There is absolutely no access to any server code and no confidential information is required.

It does work and its been done successfully for years. It was stated as one of the key reasons for another games growth. It simply needs a scripting language, which is very easy to amend, such as LUA. It's even free for CCP. Its a simple language that allows fonts, colours, positioning and all the elements of a UI with absolutely no change or knowledge needed of the server side code. It also very versatile as CCP can control easily any of the LUA features it does not want to use.

When I came here from the other game the first thing I noticed in EVE is how terribly designed the UI is and it puts many people off playing. That's a shame.

Many EVE players are so used to the UI now they don't always realise the shameful state of the game UI compared to even basic, free MMORPG's you get these days.

CCP MUST know this or do they only look at EVE? I can only assume they have decided its too much effort to correct. That means this game will have a limited shelf life and has no change in hell of getting beyond a certain level of subscriptions.




The sad thing is, CCP's playerbase would be more than happy to improve the UI for them. All CCP have to do is make the UI moddable and we'll do the rest.

fivetide humidyear
Gallente
Fool Mental Junket
Posted - 2010.07.14 12:44:00 - [16]
 

Some things new to EvE have been awesome, some sub optimal. Wormholes were the last really good thing brought in, but quite a few new things in game have been pretty average and with planetary interaction I think I can here the sound of the bottom of the creative barrel being sc****d.

As a longtime player I would love CCP to spend a year polishing whats already in game, improving server architecture and then finishing off a few of the things they put in (FW, COSMOS, PI,low sec, 5th subsystem for t3 etc.)

It's still the best game out there for my hard earned pounds. The combination of setting, relative lack of big brother control, action and consequence, social engineering and Sleipnirs is just made of win.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2010.07.14 12:45:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
The sad thing is, CCP's playerbase would be more than happy to improve the UI for them. All CCP have to do is make the UI moddable and we'll do the rest.

While I agree that this would enable the playerbase to do some of the improvement work CCP doesn't want to do, it also opens a can of worms regarding cheats, macros etc.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.07.14 12:53:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Zartrader
That's not the way player UI design works at all. There is absolutely no access to any server code and no confidential information is required.

It does work and its been done successfully for years. It was stated as one of the key reasons for another games growth. It simply needs a scripting language, which is very easy to amend, such as LUA. It's even free for CCP. Its a simple language that allows fonts, colours, positioning and all the elements of a UI with absolutely no change or knowledge needed of the server side code. It also very versatile as CCP can control easily any of the LUA features it does not want to use.

When I came here from the other game the first thing I noticed in EVE is how terribly designed the UI is and it puts many people off playing. That's a shame.

Many EVE players are so used to the UI now they don't always realise the shameful state of the game UI compared to even basic, free MMORPG's you get these days.

CCP MUST know this or do they only look at EVE? I can only assume they have decided its too much effort to correct. That means this game will have a limited shelf life and has no change in hell of getting beyond a certain level of subscriptions.
The sad thing is, CCP's playerbase would be more than happy to improve the UI for them. All CCP have to do is make the UI moddable and we'll do the rest.
Hell, for a large portion of it, not even scripting or modding would be required — give us a clear understanding of the capabilities and constraints of the UI system and we can build static or animated mock-ups of it.

While some complex options screens would require a bit more (I'm looking at you corp role interface), a vast portion of the current UI problems is a matter of poor placement and grouping of UI elements; poor colour and contrast choices; unintuitive symbology and iconography; poor font choices etc — none of which needs to be "live" to be redesigned and which can be done "on paper".

Libin Herobi
Posted - 2010.07.14 13:10:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Hell, for a large portion of it, not even scripting or modding would be required — give us a clear understanding of the capabilities and constraints of the UI system and we can build static or animated mock-ups of it.

While some complex options screens would require a bit more (I'm looking at you corp role interface), a vast portion of the current UI problems is a matter of poor placement and grouping of UI elements; poor colour and contrast choices; unintuitive symbology and iconography; poor font choices etc — none of which needs to be "live" to be redesigned and which can be done "on paper".


I agree with that.

Which makes it even more impressive that nothing is done to improve the UI.

Fearless M0F0
Incursion PWNAGE Asc
Posted - 2010.07.14 13:30:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Fearless M0F0 on 14/07/2010 13:53:50
I think most of frustration and whining on the player side are because CCP doesn't communicate what they are doing regarding the issues we care about even when they may have a bunch of devs full-time on it.

Here is an idea: use SCRUM artifacts to your advantage. CCP should be doing Sprint review meetings where each team present what they got done a the end of the sprint... Just have a PR guy sit on these meetings and put what he can reveal in a periodic dev blog for us.

This means, if CCP is doing, let's say 2 week sprints, we have a biweekly sprint-review devblog to tame the whiners YARRRR!!

edit: rephrased the whole thing after drinking some coffee

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.14 13:36:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Aineko Macx
Originally by: Malcanis
The sad thing is, CCP's playerbase would be more than happy to improve the UI for them. All CCP have to do is make the UI moddable and we'll do the rest.

While I agree that this would enable the playerbase to do some of the improvement work CCP doesn't want to do, it also opens a can of worms regarding cheats, macros etc.


Why yes, I suppose it would be terrible for the game if the client allowed cheating and macroing. Gosh, that'd be awful.

CCP Adida


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.14 13:41:00 - [22]
 

Moved from General Discussion

Helicity Boson
Amarr
The Python Cartel.
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2010.07.14 13:50:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: CCP Adida
Moved from General Discussion


hiding the bodies so hillmar cannot see them and will keep believing Eyjo?

Jason W0rthing
Posted - 2010.07.14 15:27:00 - [24]
 

Italics overwhelming.....burning eyes!! Shocked

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.14 17:05:00 - [25]
 

A lot of really good feedback here, but I'm not sure you're really running any more risk of nepotism than we do with the CSM, fanfest, or just living in Iceland. I think at this point its really important to give CCP easy options with which they can achieve something either at or very near Excellence.

Perhaps a process could work something like:
CCP Forum Post/Dev Blog:
We are spending the next scrum cycle on Faction Warfare and we're asking for ideas from the player base on what they'd like to see fixed or improved. Remember to keep this relatively simple - we aren't overhauling Faction Warfare at this time and we're only devoting one cycle to this before we move on to the next issue brought up by the CSM. Get your ideas in here (subforum link) in the next week! Things will be heavily moderated and the developers will give heavy feedback on appropriate ideas.

Player 1:
Faction warfare should be COMPLETELY Redone! YOU GUYS SUCK RAAAAGE /moderator deletes topic and BANS the player from the forums for 6 weeks.

Player 2:
Hey so if you toned down the ECM on the Caldari rats it would help a lot. /15 supports, 25 not supports

Player 3:
Hey so if you just *removed* rats from the plexes and made lots more of them it would help a lot. /18 supports, 100 not supports

Player 4:
Hey, think you guys could fix the remote-repair-your-flashy-friend-and-take-a-faction-hit bug? /100 supports, 3 not supports

CCP:
We've decided that we really like the suggestions from Player 2 and Player 4 and we're going to run with them. Stay tuned and we'll post updates every Friday afternoon before going home!
Week 1: We fixed the remote repair bug and started on the plex timers. Turns out there was a bug in the timer code.
Week 2: We finished fixing plex timers, and we lowered the frequency of these 5 NPCs.
Week 3: We fixed a couple of exploits we received via bug reports.
Week 4: We fixed a few more exploits. It's out the door to QA. If all goes well expect it to hit the server Soon(tm)
Week 6: It's through QA, with a few minor fixes. This will be released in Tyrannis 1.2 on 2010-08-01! Thanks for the help guys!

Come on CCP - Giving us the 80/20 solution now is better Excellence than waiting years for perfection!

-Liang

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.07.14 17:17:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Zartrader
That's not the way player UI design works at all. There is absolutely no access to any server code and no confidential information is required.
[...snip...]
Many EVE players are so used to the UI now they don't always realise the shameful state of the game UI compared to even basic, free MMORPG's you get these days.
[...snip...]

I doubt the OP was talking (only//mainly) about UI design, and I certainly wasn't talking about UI design at all.
UI design is actually one of those "it could maybe work" areas I was mentioning, but that WOULD require some major redesigns in the way the UI is handled in the first place and the way the client "talks" to the server (just see the recent Python-injection-or-whatever-it-was exploit debacle for one example of things that can go ugly) so that things really become the way you describe it.

Right now, if full access to the UI was given, you could probably code (eventually) insanely efficient mining bots (amongst other things), enhance PvP situation awareness beyond anything available in the current client, maybe even write down some networked PvP bots. I can almost see a hybrid multi-account client where the owner is controlling dozens of pilots in a RTS-style PvP op, or maybe alliances requiring people that do enter into fleet ops to install the UI plugin that slaves their clients into the FC's custom client or god knows what else.

It's nowhere as simple as you seem to think it is, there are serious potential consequences that must be considered.

Onomin Vitora
Posted - 2010.07.14 18:42:00 - [27]
 

The problem with the minutes from Iceland is that they left CCP and the CSM with a bad public image. Both parties failed to inspire confidence. Both parties failed to provide something, a token treat even, to be viewed as a positive. Instead, we only heard “what we are not getting” from the document.

Just reading that the Dev staff was alienated and angry in response to elected player reps (who provoked a scene) makes me cringe. It shouldn’t have happened that way.

Woe is me! It’s Christmas! And all they left me was a dirty old pdf… *Phooey!*

I don’t blame CCP for wanting to integrate Dust and Incarna before looking at other major changes to code. Once done, they can look at the more complete game they desire to offer and polish the whole. Along the way some of the major issues may be resolved simply as part of the process.

In truth, there is so much “no” in the document that it’s easy to lose track of what unsaid or noted as an affirmative. We only know for sure that no major changes to code will occur right now. Some fixes might be on tap.

Really, for me the most redeeming feature of the Iceland Minutes was amusement generated by some of the things “you suspect” were covered up by summary blurbs. True or not.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.14 23:11:00 - [28]
 

As luck would have it, this very morning, while taking a break after an extended session of self-important complaining, I wrote a blog posting addressing the very issue of how CCP could use the CSM and player expert focus groups to iterate design proposals.

http://treborofthecsm.blogspot.com/2010/07/shuttle-diplomacy.html

eyeseeyoo
Posted - 2010.07.14 23:24:00 - [29]
 

Off Topic:
Originally by: Onomin Vitora
I don’t blame CCP for wanting to integrate Dust and Incarna before looking at other major changes to code. Once done, they can look at the more complete game they desire to offer and polish the whole. Along the way some of the major issues may be resolved simply as part of the process.


The thing is that thee is no guarantee that they will go back and polish what needs it once Dust and Incarna are done. The meeting in question, in which CCP was asked to"Commit to Excellence" got nothing of the sort from CCP. All we got, and I quote, was:
Quote:
Discussion then focused on an apparent drive by CCP to add new features instead of improving existing ones. CCP stated that once Incarna and Planetary Interaction/Dust 514 are fully implemented, focus will
probably shift far more towards improvement of existing features.


Whats to say that the execs at CCP won't be distracted by their next 'big idea' and forget about excellence all together. The thing to to do is not to let them forget, keep the pressure on, keep reminding them. There have been many blog posts and forum posts regarding this already. We need to keep at them, constantly, permanently. And when subscriber numbers start to fall we can say "We told you so, turn the lights out when you leave. kthxbai."

All that we we the players, through our representatives on the CSM wanted to take from that meeting was a committment, a promise, a pledge. What we got was a 'probably' and some guff about spending more on development than other companies. We don't care about other companies, or other games for that matter.

We care about EVE and the CCP Execs need to get their head around that and get back to caring about EVE as well instead of their bank accounts and anonymous statistics. Stop looking at the bottom line and come back to the game you created, and which you used to give a damn about

The CSM haven't got a bad public image from this, they did what we asked them to in the most supported thread in the history of the assembly hall. CCP have got themselves a bad image from this and it is all their own doing. It was quite clear from the minutes that there are no resources for even minor fixes and anything that does get fixed is a side-effect of other projects (the graphics fixes and memory leaks detailed in a recent Dev Blog for example, came from the mass testing being donn in an effort to figure out how to fix the lag problem).

That being said, hats off to CCP for releasing the mintues at all, they were under no obligation to do so and the ****storm they're weathering now due to their release is far worse than the one that would have come from not doing so.

/rant over

Back On Topic: CCP don't need players to help them fix EVE, they have plenty of talented and passionate people working for them who want to fix EVE and polish till they can see their faces in it, they're just not being allowed to.

certayne
Minmatar
My Little Cynos
Posted - 2010.07.15 00:06:00 - [30]
 

Excellent player run economy. OK.. obviously you must have been recycling POS mods just before PI started.

Epic .. Fleets? WTF game are you playing? I had more fun in 2005 with ISSN than recently on a SHC Angel slideshow night FIVE years later.


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