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Nye Jaran
Posted - 2010.07.13 15:00:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Captain Megadeath

Then we have WiS or incarna which was the "Duke Nukem forever" of EvE yet now they are prioritising it people rage that they are.......


Speak for yourself. I still haven't bought into the idea of Incarna. I have no desire to walk around a station. I don't want to see people's ****ing shops dotting the floor of a space station. The second that happens, I'll need to consider leaving. I just have to hope that there is another game with the challenge and complexity of Eve by then.

I would rather see 2-part expansions, the first part implements a new core feature, a few patches here and there, then the second part (following the same schedule as it does currently) polishes the new feature and works through the back log of bugs.

3xta5y
Posted - 2010.07.13 15:10:00 - [32]
 

I like to think my subs help pay for broken stuff to be fixed as well as new shineys. Looks like I was wrong.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.07.13 15:15:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Nye Jaran
I have no desire to walk around a station. I don't want to see people's ****ing shops dotting the floor of a space station.
So don't.
Quote:
The second that happens, I'll need to consider leaving.
Why? Because others are doing something you don't care about?

So Sensational
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.07.13 15:19:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: So Sensational on 13/07/2010 15:19:50
Originally by: Nye Jaran
Originally by: Captain Megadeath

Then we have WiS or incarna which was the "Duke Nukem forever" of EvE yet now they are prioritising it people rage that they are.......


Speak for yourself. I still haven't bought into the idea of Incarna. I have no desire to walk around a station. I don't want to see people's ****ing shops dotting the floor of a space station. The second that happens, I'll need to consider leaving. I just have to hope that there is another game with the challenge and complexity of Eve by then.



In other words: omg derr a feautur i dont like in deis game but is optional, anyway i no longer play because i am anger dat dey dont listen to me and fix everything i want and maybe make something new especially from how i want it to been.

Incarna is the best thing that could ever happen to EVE, there's going to be so many people with **** (Milk producing lumps of joy) enjoying that that most of us might actually pick up an internet girlfriend.

Attrezzo Pox
Amarr
The Concordiat
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.13 15:38:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Attrezzo Pox on 13/07/2010 15:42:10
CCP runs a business. One might argue that we (current players) should matter more but anyone who's been around mmos will know how this really works.

We're all hooked. Even if we're ****ed off right now because features aren't "polished" no big deal. Leave. But when Incarna and DUST come out you'll be back, and if you're not there will probably be three people to take your place.

That's the cold, hard, capitalist truth.

Eve is a titan in the MMO world in terms of complexity. It's ALWAYS needed polish. It always WILL need polish. Although I agree with CSM it looked to me like CCP was being as honest as it could be with them. It's working on an expansion on a scale that's never been done in MMOs. Two completely different games bonded to the same sandbox universe. This has never happened. A good part of the reason why is because it's not an effing cakewalk in the park. It's hard. It involves lots of people and work. There was a CCP once long ago that was a small fighter jet. It did some really awesome stuff, changes and "patches" were frequent. But as a company it's always bit off a bit more than it could perfectly chew. It's always been a company that pushes the industry's envelope. Now it's on par with an Aircraft carrier. It manages a playerbase (this is important) in a single server cluster that borders the population of their home country.

The philosophy here is that though there are issues with current systems players will work around them to experience deep new development. If you make new and interesting things. Stuff everyone says "hey wouldn't it be cool if"... If you can do that you'll keep people interested. In 2006 CCP said "Hey wouldn't it be cool if you could walk on stations and planets?"

They're FINALLY putting real work and effort into making that happen and yet you still complain.

Plex are destroyable. Would you rather that or that the monthly price go up? You can't run a spectacular server room and a network on the level of a tier one ISP with coconuts and monkey poo.

YOU think Fleet lag, FW, Sov, and PI are broken. Anytime you get 200+ people in blobs on any game it lags. Be happy they don't limit the number of people in a system. That's technical spectacularism. Any IT guy would be impressed (I am). Fleet lag will always exist because at big enough numbers electrons aren't fast enough. Talk to Stephen Hawking maybe he can help. FW is what it is right now, cope. Apparently, (and interestingly) Gal were bit back a while ago... apparently it's not all THAT static. Some people like it. SOV was just re-vamped. Speaking of which it AND PI were made to do two things. Limit the spacial size of alliances (looked at the zone map? check), and integrate with DUST and Incarna. I guess they better get those expansions out so they can "fix" it huh?

I swear one day I'm going to start up a carebear site where people can paypal me money and I'll buy carebears to send to the whiners on this forum.

Nye Jaran
Posted - 2010.07.13 15:47:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Nye Jaran on 13/07/2010 15:48:19
Originally by: So Sensational
Edited by: So Sensational on 13/07/2010 15:19:50
Originally by: Nye Jaran
Originally by: Captain Megadeath

Then we have WiS or incarna which was the "Duke Nukem forever" of EvE yet now they are prioritising it people rage that they are.......


Speak for yourself. I still haven't bought into the idea of Incarna. I have no desire to walk around a station. I don't want to see people's ****ing shops dotting the floor of a space station. The second that happens, I'll need to consider leaving. I just have to hope that there is another game with the challenge and complexity of Eve by then.



In other words: omg derr a feautur i dont like in deis game but is optional, anyway i no longer play because i am anger dat dey dont listen to me and fix everything i want and maybe make something new especially from how i want it to been.

Incarna is the best thing that could ever happen to EVE, there's going to be so many people with **** (Milk producing lumps of joy) enjoying that that most of us might actually pick up an internet girlfriend.


Sorry, no, if I felt that way, I'd be going all /emoragequit. Obviously, I'm not doing that. From my perspective, Incarna is a waste of development time and effort. To me, Eve is about internet spaceships and pewpew (which I suck at but still enjoy). I feel that Eve is unique and Incarna is a step towards making Eve more like every other cookie-cutter Wow-esque MMO out there (even worse, STO *shudder*). There is a good chance Incarna will move the game in a direction that is contrary to what originally pulled me into the game.

It's merely a matter of personal preference. I'm not saying "OMG INCARNA WTF!", I'm saying that if I end up going to some out of the way station and can't see the end of the station because everyone and their alt have shops set up, I will need to reconsider the state of my subscription, a process of carefully weighing the state of the game, the (possible) blight of Incarna, and the activity level of my corp / alliance.

Spades Slick
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.07.13 15:59:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Spades Slick on 13/07/2010 16:02:53
Edited by: Spades Slick on 13/07/2010 16:02:15
Originally by: Attrezzo Pox
excellent bunch of stuff


Well said. In before the elitist Purists of EVE's fandumb show up and call you a "CCP lapdog" or whatever term the kids are using these days.

Originally by: Nye Jaran
Edited by: Nye Jaran on 13/07/2010 15:48:19
Originally by: So Sensational
Edited by: So Sensational on 13/07/2010 15:19:50
Originally by: Nye Jaran
Originally by: Captain Megadeath

Then we have WiS or incarna which was the "Duke Nukem forever" of EvE yet now they are prioritising it people rage that they are.......


Speak for yourself. I still haven't bought into the idea of Incarna. I have no desire to walk around a station. I don't want to see people's ****ing shops dotting the floor of a space station. The second that happens, I'll need to consider leaving. I just have to hope that there is another game with the challenge and complexity of Eve by then.



In other words: omg derr a feautur i dont like in deis game but is optional, anyway i no longer play because i am anger dat dey dont listen to me and fix everything i want and maybe make something new especially from how i want it to been.

Incarna is the best thing that could ever happen to EVE, there's going to be so many people with **** (Milk producing lumps of joy) enjoying that that most of us might actually pick up an internet girlfriend.


Sorry, no, if I felt that way, I'd be going all /emoragequit. Obviously, I'm not doing that. From my perspective, Incarna is a waste of development time and effort. To me, Eve is about internet spaceships and pewpew (which I suck at but still enjoy). I feel that Eve is unique and Incarna is a step towards making Eve more like every other cookie-cutter Wow-esque MMO out there (even worse, STO *shudder*). There is a good chance Incarna will move the game in a direction that is contrary to what originally pulled me into the game.

It's merely a matter of personal preference. I'm not saying "OMG INCARNA WTF!", I'm saying that if I end up going to some out of the way station and can't see the end of the station because everyone and their alt have shops set up, I will need to reconsider the state of my subscription, a process of carefully weighing the state of the game, the (possible) blight of Incarna, and the activity level of my corp / alliance.


Nye, I'm glad you're willing to have such a moderate reaction to something you dislike so strongly, but please let me clarify. At the top-left corner of the EVE Online website (I know, I'm looking at it right now), CCP calls it "THE WORLD'S LARGEST GAME UNIVERSE" Now, I'm not exactly sure whether or not I will be participating in Incarna's features, but the thing is, it is part of expanding the game world to REALLY encompass a full universe, both in terms of space and in terms of gameplay elements. Yes, EVE Online remains about internet spaceships at its core, but some of us want to see more out of this wonderfully-crafted world than a bunch of cookie-cutter spaceships flying around, either shooting each other or a bunch of colorful rocks. Incarna and Dust are both steps towards accelerating EVE to truly reach a new level.

I know I sound like a CCP hype machine, and I don't care what you want to try to discredit my arguments with (call me a fanboy, or an apologist, or any of that, don't really mind it). If Incarna does end up sucking, I probably will become disillusioned simply because of how much time and resources they've been pouring into it only for a small amount of gain, when they could have been doing improvements on the existing world. I guess that's the difference between me and Incarna-haters, though -- I'm willing to give CCP the chance to blow me away, and THEN, and ONLY THEN, will I judge whether that was a good use of their time.

Libin Herobi
Posted - 2010.07.13 16:42:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Libin Herobi on 13/07/2010 16:46:02
Originally by: Attrezzo Pox
Edited by: Attrezzo Pox on 13/07/2010 15:42:10

The philosophy here is that though there are issues with current systems players will work around them to experience deep new development. If you make new and interesting things. Stuff everyone says "hey wouldn't it be cool if"... If you can do that you'll keep people interested. In 2006 CCP said "Hey wouldn't it be cool if you could walk on stations and planets?"

They're FINALLY putting real work and effort into making that happen and yet you still complain.



There is a subtle point tho.
Most people are not complaining because CCP is working on Incarna or Dust but because CCP seems to neglect working on EVE.
Sacrificing present rewards for future ones may make sense in business (it not always does) but for the players this is still a game.
There is nothing to be had from a feature that will come out in a year or so.


Quote:

YOU think Fleet lag, FW, Sov, and PI are broken. Anytime you get 200+ people in blobs on any game it lags. Be happy they don't limit the number of people in a system. That's technical spectacularism. Any IT guy would be impressed (I am).



Again, people are complaining because the game used to support many more.
How can your customers be impressed when your product shows reduced performance?
"Wow, the new version of this car takes more fuel than the old version - I'm impressed it runs so well"

People specifically compare the current performance to that of Apocrypha. Same company, same product, same hardware (even before the "TQ level up") - no one demands miracles, just the level of performance they already had at some point in the past.

Aerilis
Gallente
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.07.13 17:02:00 - [39]
 

TBH, I think CCP is trying to fix lag, they have like mass tests and stuff... Don't know how much effort they're actually putting into it, but it looks like they're doing something.

The other issues... well....

Aerilis
Gallente
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.07.13 17:10:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Aerilis on 13/07/2010 17:11:14
edit: holy **** i did a double post 8 minutes apart.

goddamn my internet at work sucks.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.07.13 17:27:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Diomedes Calypso on 13/07/2010 17:36:28
Epic fleet battles with thousands of people scattered throughout the world converging to battle for sovereignity is an exciting reason to play the game for years.

The idea that soverientiy will take a multi-day struggle and climax with huge numbers of troops throwing themselves at each other like ancient armies is awesome. Call that a blob if you like, but its not the individual control of ships but the charismatic building of an army, the steadfastness and skills of a leader to retain numbers and morale, the logistical and information wings of an organization that can assure equipped forces to show up, the quick thinking of the FC's directing scouts and timing warp-ins' and outs that really impress me.


Roams are fun enough.. a bit of silly hunting looking for some poor souls traveling un-prepared or plalying cat an mouse to suck a smaller fleet into a confrontation with your larger one. But thats not enough to keep me thinking about the game for months on end and would be easy to move on to internet fps when each battle is just a little scape that means no more than a few rounds of combat on a consule.

Lag might be a given but there is no reason that there can't be large changes in mechanics to assure that when servers are overwhelmed that they fail gracefully in a way that is as neutral as possible to the two sides engaged in a month's long military campaign which is so unique in the game.

I have to agree with the OP.. it really doesn't feel like CCP has an urgency in making the unique and rather awsome in scale parts of the game function at any decent level at all.

You'wot
Posted - 2010.07.13 17:29:00 - [42]
 

Well I think CCP are in a situation where they're damned if they do and damned if they don't tbh. Not an easy industry to stay ahead of as a little company (although CCP has grown over the years) in this financial climate. I'm sure they try to do what they can to keep their game functioning the best they can and you can't blame them for wanting (needing to most likely) to expand upon their product to reach a wider audience. CCP is a business, not your own personal developer which a lot of people seem to think on this forum lol. If anything CCP are still quite in touch with their players compared to a lot of other developers out there. There are quite a few things I'm not happy with in the game but I also respect the developers point of view too. It can't be easy to stay afloat in this market. Ultimately if I'm not happy paying for the game anymore I wont, as much as that would suck after 5 years it's as simple as that.

So Sensational
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.07.13 17:53:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Nye Jaran
Edited by: Nye Jaran on 13/07/2010 15:48:19
Originally by: So Sensational
Edited by: So Sensational on 13/07/2010 15:19:50
Originally by: Nye Jaran
Originally by: Captain Megadeath

Then we have WiS or incarna which was the "Duke Nukem forever" of EvE yet now they are prioritising it people rage that they are.......


Speak for yourself. I still haven't bought into the idea of Incarna. I have no desire to walk around a station. I don't want to see people's ****ing shops dotting the floor of a space station. The second that happens, I'll need to consider leaving. I just have to hope that there is another game with the challenge and complexity of Eve by then.



In other words: omg derr a feautur i dont like in deis game but is optional, anyway i no longer play because i am anger dat dey dont listen to me and fix everything i want and maybe make something new especially from how i want it to been.

Incarna is the best thing that could ever happen to EVE, there's going to be so many people with **** (Milk producing lumps of joy) enjoying that that most of us might actually pick up an internet girlfriend.


Sorry, no, if I felt that way, I'd be going all /emoragequit. Obviously, I'm not doing that. From my perspective, Incarna is a waste of development time and effort. To me, Eve is about internet spaceships and pewpew (which I suck at but still enjoy). I feel that Eve is unique and Incarna is a step towards making Eve more like every other cookie-cutter Wow-esque MMO out there (even worse, STO *shudder*). There is a good chance Incarna will move the game in a direction that is contrary to what originally pulled me into the game.

It's merely a matter of personal preference. I'm not saying "OMG INCARNA WTF!", I'm saying that if I end up going to some out of the way station and can't see the end of the station because everyone and their alt have shops set up, I will need to reconsider the state of my subscription, a process of carefully weighing the state of the game, the (possible) blight of Incarna, and the activity level of my corp / alliance.

They've specifically stated that Incarna is intended to be a purely social experience with the extent of competition going no further than playing lame ass chess minigames and stuff like that. How is it anything like WoW? Incarna is the Second Life side of EVE, where you can shop for clothes and do some roleplaying. It's for the chicks dude, they loved that stuff in SWG and they'll live it here, and it's completely optional and won't detract from your experience at all. Me? I'm going to make my char as fat and ugly as I possibly can and walk around in really tight clothing.

Be more worried about the console kids and DUST because that could really **** stuff up if implemented in the wrong way. Luckily they've said that it will be very limited to begin with, perhaps they'll go soft and slow and make it right.


Axemaster
Posted - 2010.07.13 19:00:00 - [44]
 

Let's take a look at what CCP has done:

Moved the servers to a bigger room.
Improved client graphics rendering speeds.

What does that suggest? Well, I would say it's all preparation for Incarna.

Incarna will probably use a lot more server resources per player than Eve currently does. Why? Because in Eve, you hit "approach", and the computer just does some simple math to determine where you go. The network speed and processing of input is kept to a minimal level. Additionally, the server only has to pass the command to other people on the grid with a timestamp for their clients to calculate your position.

Incarna on the other hand will probably use a WASD or similar interface, meaning that the server requirements will be far higher per person. That's probably why it has been delayed for so long, and it explains CCP preparing to expand their hardware. Additionally, the graphics of Incarna will probably be more complex, hence the work being done on the client graphics.

Now, I know CCP has denied this, but I still expect that Incarna and Dust will eventually intersect and become the crossover between Eve and Dust. CCP will realize the transience of the console market soon enough, and make Dust PC capable. They just don't want to admit it, since that would undermine the console release...

I dunno, I'm not defending their seeming lack of response to the lag issues. But considering all they've got on their plate, it makes sense.

Wrathful Hawk
Warsmiths
Posted - 2010.07.13 19:26:00 - [45]
 

Screw new releases.

So what if i can't walk around in station for another three years, that's how long you've been promising that for anyway, at least fix the actual problems in eve.

I'm becoming constantly more and more disappointment with CCP's lack of commitment to ensuring the game we currently have is the best it can be, rather than throwing more things into the mix to mess more up..

And if you do promise more expansions like Incarna, DELIVER.

Timescales? Pah, you'll get it when you get it..!

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.07.13 19:42:00 - [46]
 

If Eve becomes vulnerable to the fickle trends of mass-market mmo players demanding expensive animation and content that they burn through and then quit, and collapses in a sea of red ink it will be a terrible joke.

They could look back as see that they lost a steady base of long-time players who were screaming as loud as they possibly could to fix what was already in the game and really think "WTH were we thinking about?!"

Losing cutomer interest because they were seeking something new and you didn't quite hit their mark is one thing.

Losing a steady base of subcribers refering new subscribers who really really wanted to keep playing and were screaming at you to give back functionality they had in the past and to polish what they already liked is plain insanity. Especially when the extra resources to maintain yoru product to retain loyal customers would have cost a fraction of attempts to pull in a larger but transient crowd.

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2010.07.13 20:24:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Pikkuhukka
i'd much more like to see wos than existing features be fixed

so yes, incarna coming this winter = <3


There are few things I would like more than to have a meeting with my corporation's officers in a 'real' conference room, finally seeing each other 'in person'. Some of these things include fixing the lag, hybrid weapons, sov mechanics, UI, corp management and a plethora of other defects.

Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2010.07.13 20:41:00 - [48]
 

Even if I was excited about Dust and Incarna to ignore a game not working correctly to begin with

what kind of idiot would I have to be to presume Dust and Incarna will be released in anything other than a half finished state? (this is the running trend for all recent content releases)

And then what will I receive upon my disappointment? Another statement advising they must focus on the NEXT content release and that finishing the product i just waited x years for will take a back seat.

it is an unbelievable logic fail and only someone with a distinguished title could con themselves into believing it makes good business sense to try sell to the customer.

Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.13 21:07:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Sky Orcagna


No one is asking that CCP "get rid of lag" or any such nonsense. All people are asking for is that lag be reduced to the level it was at prior to Dominion. That's an entirely reasonable request and it ought to be an issue on which CCP communicates with the player base regularly. Instead, there's barely been any meaningful communication on this issue for some time.


History repeating: Factional Warfare lag. Maybe around christmas CCP will actually acknowledge the post-Dominion lag debacle.

Kern Hotha
Posted - 2010.07.13 21:47:00 - [50]
 

Dominion sucked. Tyrannis sucked. Fully expecting Incarna to suck. DUST will...who knows, I don't bother with consoles.
Your new player retention is terrible, so just give up on 'new crap to lure in subscribers'.
I've had a lot of fun playing Eve over the years, and realistically don't expect it to entertain me forever, but please fix and improve the core game and stop wasting resources on boring, pointless crap like planetary interaction.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2010.07.13 22:02:00 - [51]
 

It's like a big hot air balloon with a gaping hole. Instead of fixing this hole, CCP are just blowing more hot air into it in the hopes it will be enough to stay afloat. Rolling Eyes

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.07.13 22:54:00 - [52]
 

But how can they turn around now?
After all those months of ignoring, denying, lying(?) how can they now come clean and basically say "okay, you were right"?
How could they ever again do something that (even a minority of) the playerbase does not want?
The tracks are laid and this will continue to go the way it's going...

Ryhss
Caldari
The Excecutorans
Posted - 2010.07.13 23:23:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Axemaster
Edited by: Axemaster on 13/07/2010 00:17:42
Edited by: Axemaster on 12/07/2010 23:57:10
Actually, if you read the sentence directly before the one you quoted...

Quote:
Some examples of game areas which the CSM feels do not meet the expected standard of excellence: factional warfare, treaties, lag, Tyrannis introduction (PI), unfinished content (COSMOS, bounty hunting system)...

Speaking on behalf of CCP, Nathan disagreed strongly with the claim that CCP isnít committed to excellence. He pointed out that CCP probably spends a bigger part of its income on development than most other large, established game companies. He stated that this is a clear sign of this commitment.

The CSM suggested that a perception of excellence is in large part based on player perception and that they felt that players generally do not perceive EVE as being an excellent product nor headed in an excellent direction. The greatly increased null-sec lag was cited as major example, as it has resulted in a situation where fleets of a few dozen players often experience major problems loading up empty systems. Nathan pointed out that CCP is heavily focused on reducing lag and that resources are currently being applied to the problem.

Discussion then focused on an apparent drive by CCP to add new features instead of improving existing ones. CCP stated that once Incarna and Planetary Interaction/Dust 514 are fully implemented, focus will probably shift far more towards improvement of existing features.


Perhaps you should have read more thoroughly?

On the face of it, it's pretty absurd to suggest that CCP isn't trying to fix the lag problem. Especially since it has been stated that a devblog will be coming out soon to address the issue.

A dev blog doesn't fix what's broke. A CCP Devblog is nothing but empty promises.

El Mauru
Amarr
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2010.07.14 01:08:00 - [54]
 

Face it folks. If you are ****ed enough to get worked up over the fact that ccp is acting like a company who likes to be in control of its merchandise, you should probably leave for greener pastures.

You can go for the cheap-skate option no#2 of course - which is writing a comprehensive-detailed huff-puff on why ccp is betraying you - that will also help... lots. I totally wasn't aware of that after thread no 16?

Get a paper-bag -exhale. Play some dwarf fortress or sth. Take a break from whatever activity in eve you are partaking in which is driving through the roof or cancel your account and give me your stuff.

There should be a sub-forum for venting, disappointed, yet still hooked customers where these threads get moved- oh wait- we can use the CSM forums for that.

WhiteSavage
Gallente
Ever Flow
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2010.07.14 01:48:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Captain Megadeath
Got to love the forum masses.

Quantum Rise introduced the Orca but the rest was fixing existing things. The forum raged "CCP we want shinies not fixes" now that CCP will introduce shinies the cries are "CCP fix things before shinies huff puff".

Then we have WiS or incarna which was the "Duke Nukem forever" of EvE yet now they are prioritising it people rage that they are....... Rolling EyesLaughing

Granted there will be no polish team for the next 3 expansions but the people ragin' about this ignore that the winters expansion will mostly be made up of fixes.... Laughing

But face it, quite a few have promised rage-quits over this and that x amount of accounts will be lost because of this but face it, you are addicted and you will not quit en-mass.

Stop acting like spoilt children and HTFU. YARRRR!!


this tbh



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