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Nodaddy Notthecupboard
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2010.07.12 23:17:00 - [1]
 

So following the release of the minutes from the CSM5 meeting, which can be found Here
Simply put this is the situation:

Unfortunately CCP are choosing to ignore fixing any current issues in Eve(Fleet Lag etc) or polishing any of the multitude of sh*tty half finished features already added (Faction Warfare, Sov, PI etc) until both Incarna and Dust 514 are fully implemented, from the minutes:
"Discussion then focused on an apparent drive by CCP to add new features instead of improving existing ones. CCP stated that once Incarna and Planetary Interaction/Dust 514 are fully implemented, focus will probably(Laughing) shift far more towards improvement of existing features".

Regardless of the fact the playerbase was assured that the development of Dust 514 was being done by a seperate dev team and would in no way impact this game, it would seem CCP are unwilling to channel any resources (which btw are being payed for by your Eve subscription) into improving this game.

The CSM requested that a small team be created whose sole purpose would be to improve existing features and fix long standing bugs, Quoted here:

"The CSM suggested a dedicated ”polish team“ to be established, with players being informed as to what they intend to work on during each expansion. CCP´s answer to that is that there will be no polish patrol team for the next 2-3 expansions even though players feel there should be".

So basically the best case scenario according to CCP is improvements to the the current game in approx 18 months, taking in to account there will be another 2-3 expansions worth of bugs and half finished features by then, not exactly inspiring.

Would anyone else be more than happy to pay an extra $1/1 Euro in their subscription if it was guaranteed to be used to channel resources into fixing the game we actually play? I know the money we already pay is supposed to be used to improve this game but the fact is, to CCP, new customers>existing customers.

With the exception of mass protest sub cancellations (which simply wont happen in any meaningful number) it seems to be the only solution that dosn't involve putting up with the broken gameplay and half finished features while more new shiny half finished features are repeatedly spewed out.

PS. While I applaud the current CSM for their efforts in regard to trying to get CCP to pull their head out of their Ar-ses, it should be perfectly clear that despite all that stakeholder nonsense CCP have been spouting, they have zero interest in acting on your ideas & opinions regardless of how much merit they may have if it doesn't suit their agenda, the CSM is nothing more than a very successful PR exercise for CCP and if you truly want to make an impact on the well being of this game you must resign as a group in protest of the complete lack of any real influence or respect you actually command, turn the PR machine against them, sure you lose a free jolly to Iceland but f*ck iceland.

TLDR CCP not going to fix current bugs/issues for a few years as generic console FPS 514 and opening a virtual barber shop in Jita take priority & the CSM should mass resign and expose the whole CSM process as the PR circle jerk it really is.

Axemaster
Posted - 2010.07.12 23:56:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Axemaster on 13/07/2010 00:17:42
Edited by: Axemaster on 12/07/2010 23:57:10
Actually, if you read the sentence directly before the one you quoted...

Quote:
Some examples of game areas which the CSM feels do not meet the expected standard of excellence: factional warfare, treaties, lag, Tyrannis introduction (PI), unfinished content (COSMOS, bounty hunting system)...

Speaking on behalf of CCP, Nathan disagreed strongly with the claim that CCP isn’t committed to excellence. He pointed out that CCP probably spends a bigger part of its income on development than most other large, established game companies. He stated that this is a clear sign of this commitment.

The CSM suggested that a perception of excellence is in large part based on player perception and that they felt that players generally do not perceive EVE as being an excellent product nor headed in an excellent direction. The greatly increased null-sec lag was cited as major example, as it has resulted in a situation where fleets of a few dozen players often experience major problems loading up empty systems. Nathan pointed out that CCP is heavily focused on reducing lag and that resources are currently being applied to the problem.

Discussion then focused on an apparent drive by CCP to add new features instead of improving existing ones. CCP stated that once Incarna and Planetary Interaction/Dust 514 are fully implemented, focus will probably shift far more towards improvement of existing features.


Perhaps you should have read more thoroughly?

On the face of it, it's pretty absurd to suggest that CCP isn't trying to fix the lag problem. Especially since it has been stated that a devblog will be coming out soon to address the issue.

Also this:

Quote:
CCP stated that during Tyrannis they found memory leaks which have now been fixed and have been cleaning up after previous expansions. They also stressed that with Dominion there were a lot more and larger fleet fights. CCP has even seen problems with some low number fleet fights as they are not on dedicated nodes and often times fleet fights break out on nodes that are already loaded. CCP are changing the process so that eventually, solar systems can be moved live to dedicated nodes if the number of users goes above a certain level.


If you read through the CSM notes, to be honest, CCP is doing quite a lot to fix the problem. One of the main things they are doing is moving all the old graphics to the new system, which is expected to make Eve graphics run much faster. They are working on the lag as well. So honestly, give them a break. They've heard you.Rolling Eyes

Xyla Kador
Posted - 2010.07.13 00:00:00 - [3]
 

i knew this was CCP's plan since b4 Tyrannis

its been fairly obvious that Incarna and Dust are their major priorities atm

Those two rigth there are major contributers to getting CCP out to bigger markets and hopefully much larger capital with which they can invest on fixing issues

i for one would rather get a new shiny ship b4 training all the support skills if u know what i mean Wink

Creepy Goat
Collateral.
Posted - 2010.07.13 00:02:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Creepy Goat on 13/07/2010 00:04:32
Originally by: Axemaster
On the face of it, it's pretty absurd to suggest that CCP isn't trying to fix the lag problem. Especially since it has been stated that a devblog will be coming out soon to address the issue.


Maybe they are secretly trying to promote more small gang warfare? /tinfoil.

Meh on the plus side if lag does remain a problem in large scale battles, (heck even 70 man fights were lagging), hopefully there will be more fun pvp to be had in the form of roaming gangs and solo.

Anyway I like shinies, not too bothered abou Incarna + Dust, but new ships and features would be nice.

/Optimism YARRRR!!

Off-topic.Applebabe

Your Client
Posted - 2010.07.13 00:05:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Xyla Kador

i for one would rather get a new shiny ship b4 training all the support skills if u know what i mean Wink


Why fly the ship if your support skills can barely keep it alive? Cool

Xyla Kador
Posted - 2010.07.13 00:08:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Your Client
Originally by: Xyla Kador

i for one would rather get a new shiny ship b4 training all the support skills if u know what i mean Wink


Why fly the ship if your support skills can barely keep it alive? Cool


cause human nature makes us like shinnies and wed rather get them ASAP b4 using logic to deduce how daft an idea that is

Creepy Goat
Collateral.
Posted - 2010.07.13 00:09:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Your Client
Originally by: Xyla Kador

i for one would rather get a new shiny ship b4 training all the support skills if u know what i mean Wink


Why fly the ship if your support skills can barely keep it alive? Cool


Dude its cool just fit it with some small railguns to shoot frigates from far away and medium pulse lasers so you can pwn crusiers, you can even fit a cloack and a salvager in the other highs and 2 WCS, a gyro and overdrive in the lows. Oh and dont forget your small shield booster and cap batteries so your lasers are stable k?

This ship will pwn all T3s.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.13 00:52:00 - [8]
 

u have to have a marketing spin every few months so business wise ccp is on the mark

Helio Amor
Posted - 2010.07.13 01:26:00 - [9]
 

I can see CCP putting a lot of focus into incarnia and Dust but still....thats a lot of content to add to an already buggy enviroment. Even more so Im actually surprised eve has been as stable as it has this expansion Apoc and Dom releases were hell. Took quite a few patches to stop those leaks. Most of the patches from Tyrannis Ive seen has been through adding mroe content and features such as the PLEX one tomorrow.

I don't mean to side with CCP or anyone for that matter but CSM has seemed to have an agenda that won't let CCP modify the least bit....I wouldn't take minutes from the meeting by CSM to heart too quick. You are a chosen rep by the player base. This doesn't mean you can go in there asking for things and not be willing to compromise because in the end CCP is the one in charge and will do what they want based on player responce not a CSM responce.

Caminja
Posted - 2010.07.13 01:53:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Helio Amor
I can see CCP putting a lot of focus into incarnia and Dust but still....thats a lot of content to add to an already buggy enviroment. Even more so Im actually surprised eve has been as stable as it has this expansion Apoc and Dom releases were hell. Took quite a few patches to stop those leaks. Most of the patches from Tyrannis Ive seen has been through adding mroe content and features such as the PLEX one tomorrow.

I don't mean to side with CCP or anyone for that matter but CSM has seemed to have an agenda that won't let CCP modify the least bit....I wouldn't take minutes from the meeting by CSM to heart too quick. You are a chosen rep by the player base. This doesn't mean you can go in there asking for things and not be willing to compromise because in the end CCP is the one in charge and will do what they want based on player responce not a CSM responce.


Clearly you are as big a tool as most other eve players which is the whole reason this sort of bs is continuing in the first place. What you dont understand is that it is not the CSM that is uncompromising. CCP has pretty much told the CSM to go **** itself with all the concerns and changes they bring up constantly. As others have stated it is a giant marketing ploy and CCP could give two less ****s about what the players really want. I started playing this game with a great hope that there was still at least one company out there who did still care about the players. This feeling has now been replaced with utter disgust and a bitter after taste left in my mouth.

CCP has become a greed stricken shell of corruption. They continually ignore what players what and continue shoving more content down our throats to try and get more subscriptions without fixing the core problems the game currently has. CCP is pulling the wool over your eyes and if you believe otherwise you are plain ignorant.

As I already stated in response to a GM petiton. I will be waiting for the day the doors blow open on this thing and CCP comes crashing down. As much as I enjoy this game I would gladly give it up to see karma rip CCP a new one.

HarrietMiers
Helljumpers
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2010.07.13 02:02:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Caminja
Originally by: Helio Amor
I can see CCP putting a lot of focus into incarnia and Dust but still....thats a lot of content to add to an already buggy enviroment. Even more so Im actually surprised eve has been as stable as it has this expansion Apoc and Dom releases were hell. Took quite a few patches to stop those leaks. Most of the patches from Tyrannis Ive seen has been through adding mroe content and features such as the PLEX one tomorrow.

I don't mean to side with CCP or anyone for that matter but CSM has seemed to have an agenda that won't let CCP modify the least bit....I wouldn't take minutes from the meeting by CSM to heart too quick. You are a chosen rep by the player base. This doesn't mean you can go in there asking for things and not be willing to compromise because in the end CCP is the one in charge and will do what they want based on player responce not a CSM responce.


Clearly you are as big a tool as most other eve players which is the whole reason this sort of bs is continuing in the first place. What you dont understand is that it is not the CSM that is uncompromising. CCP has pretty much told the CSM to go **** itself with all the concerns and changes they bring up constantly. As others have stated it is a giant marketing ploy and CCP could give two less ****s about what the players really want. I started playing this game with a great hope that there was still at least one company out there who did still care about the players. This feeling has now been replaced with utter disgust and a bitter after taste left in my mouth.

CCP has become a greed stricken shell of corruption. They continually ignore what players what and continue shoving more content down our throats to try and get more subscriptions without fixing the core problems the game currently has. CCP is pulling the wool over your eyes and if you believe otherwise you are plain ignorant.

As I already stated in response to a GM petiton. I will be waiting for the day the doors blow open on this thing and CCP comes crashing down. As much as I enjoy this game I would gladly give it up to see karma rip CCP a new one.


QFT

Bankoff DarkFusion
Posted - 2010.07.13 02:10:00 - [12]
 

EVE is such an unfriendly game that most new members who join the corp my alt runs leave it fairly soon. The steep learning curve and the emphasis on thuggishness in game play are not all that appealing to most people. I have never played a game that had so few women players and I see lots of behavior that my women gamer friends just won't put up with. I don't see much in Incarna or in Dust 514 that's going to change this dynamic.

We're in the middle of an event (Hulkageddon) in which the player base has basically declared war on the weakest elements in the game, miners, many of whom are new players or players who don't want anything to do with PvP.

A lot of the problems CCP has would not require a lot of money to fix. An emphasis on retaining new players rather than having them ridiculed and hounded out of the game would be a start.

What's the point of having CSM if you're not going to listen? But of course, CCP doesn't need to listen, because it can always read the thugs on the forums who agree with anything CCP does.

SammyullJackson
Posted - 2010.07.13 02:30:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Bankoff DarkFusion
EVE is such an unfriendly game that most new members who join the corp my alt runs leave it fairly soon. The steep learning curve and the emphasis on thuggishness in game play are not all that appealing to most people. I have never played a game that had so few women players and I see lots of behavior that my women gamer friends just won't put up with. I don't see much in Incarna or in Dust 514 that's going to change this dynamic.

We're in the middle of an event (Hulkageddon) in which the player base has basically declared war on the weakest elements in the game, miners, many of whom are new players or players who don't want anything to do with PvP.

A lot of the problems CCP has would not require a lot of money to fix. An emphasis on retaining new players rather than having them ridiculed and hounded out of the game would be a start.

What's the point of having CSM if you're not going to listen? But of course, CCP doesn't need to listen, because it can always read the thugs on the forums who agree with anything CCP does.


The Care is strong with this one.

Indy Dugg
Posted - 2010.07.13 02:37:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Indy Dugg on 13/07/2010 02:42:18
CCP fixed alot of **** and ignored some. U cant get rid of lag in a mmorpg... oh CCP had another patch and gave use a new worthless ship.. when u can look at ur planet sructures from 1 million jumps away in another solar system and u dont need to warp to the planet except to pick ur stuff up..lol fraking dots ur messing with.

This game is so kool. Then u realize somethings missing or broke or ur like wtf just happened. (kool beacause it is the only spaceship mmo and i wish i can live out there in real life.) i hate earthlings sorta lolMadz.

noom noom nom Outlaw Star or CowboyBebop. Firefly.

I sit there mineing and watch my mineing lasers on my hulk going through my hull. Or warp to a belt and watch the astriods pop up 1 by 1 lol. Alts.

Ascendic
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.13 02:43:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Indy Dugg
CCP fixed alot of **** and ignored some. U cant get rid of lag in a mmorpg... oh CCP had another patch and gave use a new worthless ship.. when u can look at ur planet sructures from 1 million jumps away in another solar system and u dont need to warp to the planet except to pick ur stuff up..lol fraking dots ur messing with.

This game is so kool. Then u realize somethings missing or broke or ur like wtf just happened. (kool beacause it is the only spaceship mmo and i widh i can live out there in real life.) i hate earthlings sorta lolMadz.


Dear lord someone please put mongo back in his cage before his absurdly low IQ rubs off on me

SammyullJackson
Posted - 2010.07.13 02:45:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Indy Dugg
Edited by: Indy Dugg on 13/07/2010 02:42:18
CCP fixed alot of **** and ignored some. U cant get rid of lag in a mmorpg... oh CCP had another patch and gave use a new worthless ship.. when u can look at ur planet sructures from 1 million jumps away in another solar system and u dont need to warp to the planet except to pick ur stuff up..lol fraking dots ur messing with.

This game is so kool. Then u realize somethings missing or broke or ur like wtf just happened. (kool beacause it is the only spaceship mmo and i wish i can live out there in real life.) i hate earthlings sorta lolMadz.

noom noom nom Outlaw Star or CowboyBebop. Firefly.

I sit there mineing and watch my mineing lasers on my hulk going through my hull. Or warp to a belt and watch the astriods pop up 1 by 1 lol. Alts.


I must say, I loled. Because you seem to think that it's possible to render full collision detection in a MMO on EVE's scale, or possible to make the connection somehow magically faster to transfer server information (IE where asteroids are).

Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
Posted - 2010.07.13 02:45:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Indy Dugg
Edited by: Indy Dugg on 13/07/2010 02:42:18
CCP fixed alot of **** and ignored some. U cant get rid of lag in a mmorpg... oh CCP had another patch and gave use a new worthless ship.. when u can look at ur planet sructures from 1 million jumps away in another solar system and u dont need to warp to the planet except to pick ur stuff up..lol fraking dots ur messing with.

This game is so kool. Then u realize somethings missing or broke or ur like wtf just happened. (kool beacause it is the only spaceship mmo and i wish i can live out there in real life.) i hate earthlings sorta lolMadz.

noom noom nom Outlaw Star or CowboyBebop. Firefly.

I sit there mineing and watch my mineing lasers on my hulk going through my hull. Or warp to a belt and watch the astriods pop up 1 by 1 lol. Alts.


I have no idea what any of this incoherent rambling is supposed to be.

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2010.07.13 02:54:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Caminja

I started playing this game with a great hope that there was still at least one company out there who did still care about the players. This feeling has now been replaced with utter disgust and a bitter after taste left in my mouth.



Anyone else?

So CCP think they can avoid the coming exodus by diversifing their product.

What they fail to realise is they are making their flag-ship product crap in the process.

How diverse does Eve have to be to compete with jump-gate evolution?

Maybe players will stay with CCP if they fix the past 2-3 expansions.


Sky Orcagna
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.13 02:56:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Indy Dugg
CCP fixed alot of **** and ignored some. U cant get rid of lag in a mmorpg...


Nice straw man.

No one is asking that CCP "get rid of lag" or any such nonsense. All people are asking for is that lag be reduced to the level it was at prior to Dominion. That's an entirely reasonable request and it ought to be an issue on which CCP communicates with the player base regularly. Instead, there's barely been any meaningful communication on this issue for some time.

Gigantic blobs have always caused lag and people accept this. But there was a time, not so long ago, when 200 vs. 200 fights (or even larger) were quite playable. The fact that CCP doesn't appear to see this as a major problem in a game where EVERY SINGLE VIDEO TRAILER they create for marketing purposes highlights fleet combat is, well, rather depressing.

It's obvious the current priority is DUST 514 and establishing a foothold in the console market. As usual, PC gamers are supposed to be content with whatever leftovers are tossed in our general direction. It's all about the console dollars.

Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2010.07.13 03:33:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Axemaster
On the face of it, it's pretty absurd to suggest that CCP isn't trying to fix the lag problem. Especially since it has been stated that a devblog will be coming out soon to address the issue.

Would that be soon? Or soonTM?

Why do you suggest it is absurd? I'm sure CCP would 'LIKE' to fix the lag problem, but that is entirely different than 'able to' or 'willing to dedicate resources to'. It is an important distinction.

Originally by: Axemaster
If you read through the CSM notes, to be honest, CCP is doing quite a lot to fix the problem.

So honestly, give them a break. They've heard you.Rolling Eyes

The difference between a dev telling me they see an issue and a dev telling me what is causing it and how he is going to fix it is night and day.

You need to understand that some of CCP reading these posts and hearing us, and devs truly wanting to improve the game is a FAR CRY from their management being dedicated to actually making it happen. Dedicated in light of other priorities and in implementing effective policies to deliver in a timely manner. I'm sure they are trying, but delivering...?









I want you to read just these three excerpts i posted in jita parks csm notes thread and try to see we're not just knee jerk raging but legitimate concern.
The cognitive dissonance between their development assurances/promises and their blatant and self-admitted 'full steam ahead new product' business direction is clear.


Originally by: csm notes
It was mentioned by CCP that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features. This led to a discussion on the balance of customer acquisition through new features versus customer retention through quality and polish.

What that says to me is: according to their 'data' new customers income due to flashy expansions can make them more money than retention of current customers through promised "Commitment to Excellence"tm.
Even if i try to play devil's advocate, it's hard to take anything else away from that.

Originally by: csm notes
CCP disagreed strongly with the claim that it isn’t committed to excellence and feels that the resources being used to constantly improve Eve Online are a clear sign of this commitment.

Resources committed != results.
You know you're on shaky ground when someone is quick to tell you how hard they've worked, but not so quick to share their tangible results.

Originally by: csm notes
CCP warned that care has to be taken regarding expectation management for the players. Issues chosen
for production often have to be cut, which may be harder to explain to players than to stakeholders.
CSM commented that the CSM can aid in managing player expectations with regard to shifting priorities
of backlogged items.

I don't include this because the reality of a business needing to please shareholders and turn a profit eludes me.
However this in conjunction with the other two paint a picture I don't think truly serves either CCP nor the players long term interests.









Management habits as companies grow larger can become frightful. The more successful and older a company gets the more you get people coming in offering the world, gambling big and failing. They focus on maximum profit and if the ship sinks, they move on.

If the powers that be at CCP abandon their past ways of showing a commitment to excellence and trade that in for a "Commitment to Excellence"tm, well you'll find quickly that empty promises and continued guarantees for "it's going to get better we promise!" is all you'll receive. Regardless of best intentions by Devs.

While new product and new customers may show quicker immediate returns, doing this at the cost of a strong will to retain customers, scraping quality for quantity and a WORKING ability to make good on promises to customers is comparable to trying to build a structure ever faster, ever taller, and ignoring the crumbling foundation

Celestine Santora
Posted - 2010.07.13 03:41:00 - [21]
 

Totally not reading this junk but I have to say that "Nodaddy Notthecupboard" is one of the better pilot names I've ever seen

CCP Applebabe

Posted - 2010.07.13 05:12:00 - [22]
 

Thread has been cleaned up. Please keep your post on topic.

Thanks.

Pikkuhukka
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.07.13 07:56:00 - [23]
 

i'd much more like to see wos than existing features be fixed

so yes, incarna coming this winter = <3

WhiteSavage
Gallente
Ever Flow
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2010.07.13 07:56:00 - [24]
 

According to the CSM notes CCP is aware of how the player-base feels and is pushing a lot of time and effort into fixing said problems now and in the future. Our next few expansions, according to the same notes OP quoted from will have a solid dedication to issues like lag and PI...

Some people here seem to be missing the point that there IS a CSM... and that its existence is UNHEARD of in MMO community. People also don't understand much about debugging complex code... it takes a month to create a new feature that everyone can enjoy... and it takes 4 months to identify and fix a small bug that effects a tiny percentage of players.

Instead of reading a sentence, taking it out of context and crying on the forums why don't you give CCP the benefit of the doubt sometimes...

So many MMO's grow and then fail. EVE is the only one steadily progressing in depth and player-base. CCP is doing SOMETHING right.


Saartje Sarel
Posted - 2010.07.13 09:38:00 - [25]
 

Quote:
Would anyone else be more than happy to pay an extra $1/1 Euro in their subscription if it was guaranteed to be used to channel resources into fixing the game we actually play? I know the money we already pay is supposed to be used to improve this game but the fact is, to CCP, new customers>existing customers.


Evidently you havent just lived through 13 years of Nu Labour. No. No and thrice no.

I sympathise with your concerns and largely agree the CSM is a load of hokum hogswash if they wont actually listen. Unless it suits them. Sad that you seem to care so much about crusading to fix what so obviously needs fixing. If they cant see it they are blind, if they can see it dont care, you are. Its a business. Stop paying them or htfu. Online games have always been run thus.

Rothrin
Posted - 2010.07.13 09:42:00 - [26]
 

Cant blame the csm, if 70% of us players voted then they would listen more. Even mega gameing corps like blizzard listen if enough people band togehter.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.07.13 10:00:00 - [27]
 

Do not buy into the "Ooo-shiny"-factor(tm).

Foundation Vox
Posted - 2010.07.13 11:10:00 - [28]
 

You guys do realize this same argument (fix the game before adding new stuffs) is made on the forums of EVERY other mmo known to man. Just say'n.

Haramir Haleths
Caldari
Nutella Bande
Posted - 2010.07.13 13:30:00 - [29]
 

The only thing with max priority should be performance. Otherwise Eve is working fine. So give me more shinies please Laughing

Captain Megadeath
Posted - 2010.07.13 14:28:00 - [30]
 

Got to love the forum masses.

Quantum Rise introduced the Orca but the rest was fixing existing things. The forum raged "CCP we want shinies not fixes" now that CCP will introduce shinies the cries are "CCP fix things before shinies huff puff".

Then we have WiS or incarna which was the "Duke Nukem forever" of EvE yet now they are prioritising it people rage that they are....... Rolling EyesLaughing

Granted there will be no polish team for the next 3 expansions but the people ragin' about this ignore that the winters expansion will mostly be made up of fixes.... Laughing

But face it, quite a few have promised rage-quits over this and that x amount of accounts will be lost because of this but face it, you are addicted and you will not quit en-mass.

Stop acting like spoilt children and HTFU. YARRRR!!


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