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C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.12 15:29:00 - [1]
 

The meeting minutes for the first CSM 5 summit at the CCP headquarters in Reykjavik are now available. Click here to take a look!

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.07.12 15:32:00 - [2]
 

Thanks for the sticky, Navigator!




Chesty McJubblies
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.07.12 15:48:00 - [3]
 

oO

souhyeahright
Posted - 2010.07.12 16:01:00 - [4]
 

Good and timely communication, but y'all (CCP) could have condensed it a bit. Something like...

Quote:
FAO: the sad, deluded peons that constitute our customer base

We have carefully considered your suggestions, requests, and opinions, and have but one response: Go f*** yourselves.

Love,
CCP


...would have conveyed exactly the same message, and you wouldn't have needed to put in anything like as much effort to produce it. Ho hum.

Shigsy
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.07.12 16:14:00 - [5]
 

Good job mynxee ;)

Dragon Greg
Posted - 2010.07.12 16:17:00 - [6]
 

So .. eh ...

the gist of everything is that:

1. CCP is not going to care for EVE until after Dust 514, so around end of 2011.

2. Because of a few years of, what, hard work? Incarna and Dust are going to take ALL their attention, leaving just room for a little distractions to integrate Incarna and Dust with.

3. CCP thinks the state of the cluster is just peachy.

4. The very instrument they advertised to be awesome feedback and work as instrument for gamedesign and customer represenation has been prenerfed by CCP because all the planning and scheduling has already been done by CCP. In other words, the CSM can now feedback until it sees blue in the face, but CCP is already under way and ain't stopping.

What am I missing?

T'Amber
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2010.07.12 16:39:00 - [7]
 

Thanks to Mynxee and the CSM5 team.

-T'amber

Larkonis Trassler
Doctrine.
Posted - 2010.07.12 16:47:00 - [8]
 

This would be comedy gold if it weren't for the fact that it's quite serious.

Really goes to show just how out of touch the senior staff are with the players and how unwilling they are to enter into any sort of real compromise or debate.

CSM was all about putting power into the hands of the players and making CCP more accountable to them. This appears to have failed.

I'm quite glad the format of the summit was changed and this term's chair has a good set of balls and is willing to tackle the challenges.


Quote:
Speaking on behalf of CCP, Nathan disagreed strongly with the claim that CCP isnít committed to excellence. He pointed out that CCP probably spends a bigger part of its income on development than most other large, established game companies. He stated that this is a clear sign of this commitment.


I think this just about sums up the complete disconnect that the management have.

Dragon Greg
Posted - 2010.07.12 16:51:00 - [9]
 

"CSM asked about in-station fighting or aggressive behaviors. CCP would not promise either in the near term. It has to be kept in mind that the basic idea regarding Incarna is to socialize, not to have an arena. An analogy with airports has been used in the past and that vision was further reinforced in Hjaltiís book, EVE: The Burning Life."

If that is any indication for how CCP do their research, then sit on it for years and then get to work with it, I get scared.. sure nice book, but it is quite old by now. I do hope they actually did some serious and current market studies on MMO's that have failed because of airport analogy development >.<

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.12 16:56:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Larkonis Trassler
This would be comedy gold if it weren't for the fact that it's quite serious.

Really goes to show just how out of touch the senior staff are with the players and how unwilling they are to enter into any sort of real compromise or debate.

CSM was all about putting power into the hands of the players and making CCP more accountable to them. This appears to have failed.

I'm quite glad the format of the summit was changed and this term's chair has a good set of balls and is willing to tackle the challenges.


Quote:
Speaking on behalf of CCP, Nathan disagreed strongly with the claim that CCP isnít committed to excellence. He pointed out that CCP probably spends a bigger part of its income on development than most other large, established game companies. He stated that this is a clear sign of this commitment.


I think this just about sums up the complete disconnect that the management have.


It's all a bit depressing. How can we fault CCP for reinvesting so much of their income into the game? Yet how can we praise them when the expenditure is producing so little benefit to it's customers?

Well on the bright side: at least we know where we stand now. All I can say is, Incarna had better be ****ing awesome, CCP, because if we've put up with your terrible game quality since December 09 and all we get to make up for it is talk in some stupid e-bar, then there will be hell to pay.

Start fixing **** now. Start telling us what you've fixed. Start telling us what you're going to fix next. Star Wars: The Old Republic launches soon, and those guys are gonna eat your lunch unless you shape the **** up.


Larkonis Trassler
Doctrine.
Posted - 2010.07.12 17:06:00 - [11]
 

When you see it...

Quote:

CSM remained unconvinced of CCPs commitment to excellence, even after Nathan's arguments were heard. CCP disagreed strongly with the claim that it isnít committed to excellence and feels that the resources being used to constantly improve Eve Online are a clear sign of this commitment.

Quote:

The CSM suggested a dedicated Ēpolish teamď to be established, with players being informed as to what they intend to work on during each expansion. CCPīs answer to that is that there will be no polish patrol team for the next 2-3 expansions even though players feel there should be.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.07.12 17:22:00 - [12]
 

I am here, on page 1.

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.07.12 17:50:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 12/07/2010 18:02:05
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 12/07/2010 17:58:17
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler
When you see it...

Quote:

CSM remained unconvinced of CCPs commitment to excellence, even after Nathan's arguments were heard. CCP disagreed strongly with the claim that it isnít committed to excellence and feels that the resources being used to constantly improve Eve Online are a clear sign of this commitment.



Yeah we never said CCP didnt allocate enough resources to Eve. We tried to explain that we feel resources are not allocated to the right areas (fixing stuff, making sure existing content is good, etc). However, unfortunately it didnt seem like CCP understood that at all.

Originally by: Dragon Greg

3. CCP thinks the state of the cluster is just peachy.


This actually needs some refining:

CCP Explorer did come to us with code metrics - and it is clear that from a software engineering point of view, the Eve code base is better than ever. However, as we all know, this is not reflected in the game experience. Vuk Lau showed them a video of how to deal with module lag (which actually seemed to surprise some of the devs at CCP), and we talked to the developers who actually work on the cluster code. They do accept that there is more lag than before - both in big fleets and small gangs - and the core cluster team is working on finding out WHY (and then fixing it).

It does seem somewhat telling that CCP comes up with code metrics when we come with complaints about the user experience. The two are not related, and to me it hints at either a disconnect between the devs and the game they make, or an effort to fool the CSM into thinking things are ok. However, the team that is actually responsible for 'fixing the lag' IS aware that it exists and that it is worse than before. Whether or not they can fix it any time soon is a totally different question however.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.12 18:01:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal


Yeah we never said CCP didnt allocate enough resources to Eve. We tried to explain that we feel resources are not allocated to the right areas (fixing stuff, making sure existing content is good, etc). However, unfortunately it didnt seem like CCP understood that at all.



I guess that by now, you and all the other CSMs have realised that fixing this is your primary mission. All the other stuff - fixing this, buffing that, tweaking the other - are secondary sub-aspects of your main job.

Master Akira
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.12 18:02:00 - [15]
 

These minutes are a joke. A joke that is not funny.

Larkonis Trassler
Doctrine.
Posted - 2010.07.12 18:04:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 12/07/2010 17:58:17
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler
When you see it...

Quote:

CSM remained unconvinced of CCPs commitment to excellence, even after Nathan's arguments were heard. CCP disagreed strongly with the claim that it isnít committed to excellence and feels that the resources being used to constantly improve Eve Online are a clear sign of this commitment.



Yeah we never said CCP didnt allocate enough resources to Eve. We tried to explain that we feel resources are not allocated to the right areas (fixing stuff, making sure existing content is good, etc). However, unfortunately it didnt seem like CCP understood that at all.



I agree. There's no doubt that plenty of resources are being thrown at Eve to improve it 'upwards' just not enough (or none at all) to improve it 'sideways' (hence the other quote in my poast).

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.07.12 18:07:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 12/07/2010 18:10:48
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal


Yeah we never said CCP didnt allocate enough resources to Eve. We tried to explain that we feel resources are not allocated to the right areas (fixing stuff, making sure existing content is good, etc). However, unfortunately it didnt seem like CCP understood that at all.



I guess that by now, you and all the other CSMs have realised that fixing this is your primary mission. All the other stuff - fixing this, buffing that, tweaking the other - are secondary sub-aspects of your main job.


We were aware of that before the summit, and in many issues that were discussed (low sec, 0.0, factional warfare, the winter expansion, etc) we brought up the need to focus on existing issues and working with what is already in Eve. It wasn't just during the 'excellence' discussion that we talked about this, it was a red thread throughout the 3 days of meetings.

Unfortunately CCP still seems to focus heavily on attracting new customers (or getting former players to resub) with new content rather than improved existing content - and their increasing subscriber numbers support that belief. It is my belief that properly marketted 'old content' could achieve the exact same thing but with a multi million dollar budget at stake, CCP doesnt seem to be convinced of that. The only way to convince them would be a drop in subscriber numbers, but most of us are still too invested in this game to unsubscribe en-masse.

Dragon Greg
Posted - 2010.07.12 18:13:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Dragon Greg on 12/07/2010 18:17:21
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal


Originally by: Dragon Greg

3. CCP thinks the state of the cluster is just peachy.


This actually needs some refining:

CCP Explorer did come to us with code metrics - and it is clear that from a software engineering point of view, the Eve code base is better than ever. However, as we all know, this is not reflected in the game experience. Vuk Lau showed them a video of how to deal with module lag (which actually seemed to surprise some of the devs at CCP), and we talked to the developers who actually work on the cluster code. They do accept that there is more lag than before - both in big fleets and small gangs - and the core cluster team is working on finding out WHY (and then fixing it).

It does seem somewhat telling that CCP comes up with code metrics when we come with complaints about the user experience. The two are not related, and to me it hints at either a disconnect between the devs and the game they make, or an effort to fool the CSM into thinking things are ok. However, the team that is actually responsible for 'fixing the lag' IS aware that it exists and that it is worse than before. Whether or not they can fix it any time soon is a totally different question however.


You know, all good intentions from CSM and staff aside, that just means ****, when they people making the decisions at CCP on commercial objectives, acquisition targets over retention, and resource allocations have zero clue on the state of the product, or even of its reception by customers in these days of social networking.

There's an interesting thread on SHC, yeah I know, shocking in its own right .. bitter vets constructively analysing meeting minutes, EVE, Dust, Incarna, and CCP, with surprisingly more politesse and aptitude then here. But even there, the same fundamental conclusions are being drawn. It has no importance whatsoever whether Devs want to do the right thing, when the people making the decisions actively or passively wreck the processes involved.

Look, no disrespect to what is visibly a lot of hard work of the CSM as a real team, in spite of the **** we saw here t times, nor to the hardworking staff who try to build this universe. But it is as if at some point there just is a LOT of misinformation, or even emo on the state of the product and those annoying customers who dare to want to enjoy a game respectively. But I guess, that is what you get for staying clear from proper communication and immersion, and yes, maybe as players we ourselves a even guilty of some of the roots of that, after all, for several years people chased after Devs playing the game as if it were a jihad. Sure, sometimes for good reasons in the days of corruption, but at some point that just turned into a spanish inquisition.

Maybe it's an idea to start a little reconciliation on several levels, cause with what EVE is, you can't manage development of the product or the business without living and breathing what you build.

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal


Yeah we never said CCP didnt allocate enough resources to Eve. We tried to explain that we feel resources are not allocated to the right areas (fixing stuff, making sure existing content is good, etc). However, unfortunately it didnt seem like CCP understood that at all.



I guess that by now, you and all the other CSMs have realised that fixing this is your primary mission. All the other stuff - fixing this, buffing that, tweaking the other - are secondary sub-aspects of your main job.


It is amazing, that it seems necessary for players to educate the people behind the brand, on the nature and state of their product, even to educate them on the risk this places on the value of both brand and IP - regardless of hard work of actual developers. These minutes really show where the structural problems are.

Dragon Greg
Posted - 2010.07.12 18:28:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal

We were aware of that before the summit, and in many issues that were discussed (low sec, 0.0, factional warfare, the winter expansion, etc) we brought up the need to focus on existing issues and working with what is already in Eve. It wasn't just during the 'excellence' discussion that we talked about this, it was a red thread throughout the 3 days of meetings.

Unfortunately CCP still seems to focus heavily on attracting new customers (or getting former players to resub) with new content rather than improved existing content - and their increasing subscriber numbers support that belief. It is my belief that properly marketted 'old content' could achieve the exact same thing but with a multi million dollar budget at stake, CCP doesnt seem to be convinced of that. The only way to convince them would be a drop in subscriber numbers, but most of us are still too invested in this game to unsubscribe en-masse.


Can't they see what an incredible commercial risk they are taking with this? I'm not referring to the mythical risk of mass unsubscribing - people LOVE eve, they WANT TO BELIEVE, so those who are invested in it stick around, and do come back.

But getting caught in an ever accelerating rat race of increasing resource capacity while the ratio of resource allocations required for acquisitions is not in proportion to that increase in resource capacity, that's just nuts. Besides, there are structural business development limitations to that which traditionally force enterprise forces to turn their products to legacy mode, and seek other products, typically within the same IP. But those who engage in such rat races, they nor their products survive in the end, because it creates a momentum which is always counterproductive to the original core principles and strengths of the original foundation they established for the IP.

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.07.12 18:37:00 - [20]
 

Quote:
Speaking on behalf of CCP, Nathan disagreed strongly with the claim that CCP isnít committed to excellence. He pointed out that CCP probably spends a bigger part of its income on development than most other large, established game companies. He stated that this is a clear sign of this commitment.


The question that you need to ask Nathan is why are you measuring your development budget against other game companies? Do they have the same business Eve business model, game archictecture and vision that would make such comparisons valid? Yes or no?

At the end of the day, it's a pointless number statistic that serves little purpose.
Ergo: he needs to come up with a better justification.

I think by now, he should have realized that the player/community climate is unhappy and that is being reflected by the pushing that CSM5 is giving. It also doesn't take a genius to gauge the general mood of the forum postings. Let's see how things develop from here - continual denial or some course-corrections.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.12 19:06:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 12/07/2010 19:07:15
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 12/07/2010 18:10:48
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal


Yeah we never said CCP didnt allocate enough resources to Eve. We tried to explain that we feel resources are not allocated to the right areas (fixing stuff, making sure existing content is good, etc). However, unfortunately it didnt seem like CCP understood that at all.



I guess that by now, you and all the other CSMs have realised that fixing this is your primary mission. All the other stuff - fixing this, buffing that, tweaking the other - are secondary sub-aspects of your main job.


We were aware of that before the summit, and in many issues that were discussed (low sec, 0.0, factional warfare, the winter expansion, etc) we brought up the need to focus on existing issues and working with what is already in Eve. It wasn't just during the 'excellence' discussion that we talked about this, it was a red thread throughout the 3 days of meetings.

Unfortunately CCP still seems to focus heavily on attracting new customers (or getting former players to resub) with new content rather than improved existing content - and their increasing subscriber numbers support that belief. It is my belief that properly marketted 'old content' could achieve the exact same thing but with a multi million dollar budget at stake, CCP doesnt seem to be convinced of that. The only way to convince them would be a drop in subscriber numbers, but most of us are still too invested in this game to unsubscribe en-masse.


Aye, you're right. Maybe it might be worth pointing out to CCP that the "Used to play EVE but left because finally lost patience with gamebreaking bug #153" demographic is worth chasing, especially since fixing every such gamebreaking bug adds value to each new subscription.

Depili
Blood Works Inc.
Circle-Of-Two
Posted - 2010.07.12 19:08:00 - [22]
 

I'm confused, first CCP says that they are committed to excellence and then they say no to every request for fixes or polish...

I knew things were bad but the minutes show even greater problems, well I hear that perpetuum is shaping up real nice...

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2010.07.12 19:14:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Dodgy Past on 12/07/2010 19:19:21
Edited by: Dodgy Past on 12/07/2010 19:17:28
Quote:
CSM firmly stated its belief that CCP is on the wrong track in directing their development power into new things that the players have no faith in while acknowledging that the old things need attention. CSM truly believes that CCP needs to pay much more attention to what players are saying. There is a growing frustration among the CSM that CCPís apparent refusal to tangibly address well supported player requests will never change.

Quote:
The CSM stressed that their criticisms are done made because they love EVE and would like to see it go on for many more years. They are worried about the health of EVE; the excellence of the game and the concerns of its community is the CSMís top priority. CSM stated that they believe the CSM is at a critical point in time now. Despite their touted stakeholder status, it is clear even formerly supportive players are losing faith in the CSM process due to nothing changing about the way CCP treats CSM-raised issues. If the CSM is to have any credibility with players, it must be able to demonstrate positive outcomes from its activities.


Good stuff.

Reading through it is amasing how determined CCP staff are to ignore the advice the CSM gives, their defensiveness comes across as downright unprofessional and discourteous as well. Getting the idea that they no longer respect their players.

At least this time around the CSM are forcing CCP to admit that they're letting the game rot in favour of their pet projects which allows us as consumers to decide how much effort we want to dedicate to the future of a game which the management is too tight to alot resources to fix.

Edit:
Apologies to developers, not your decision as to what you are allowed to do.

Jordan Musgrat
Convergent
Posted - 2010.07.12 19:28:00 - [24]
 

I just don't understand, because at one point in time, you had fixed lag to a degree that made everyone jump up and down and praise you, CCP. We were all saying "finally, this game is going somewhere now." And then you introduced a new patch, with new features, and we went back to worse than ever amounts of lag. Maybe the people you're putting on this issue aren't competent, or maybe you really just don't care, but that's all we really want. You don't have to give us tons of new game content every 6 months, we make the game content ourselves, that's the whole point of Eve. Just give us a lag free experience.

mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.07.12 19:32:00 - [25]
 

the devs need to realize that there is no for/against, no right/wrong, and no enemies here. there is only the possibility of working together with what is possibly their most effective market research team for current subscribers(the csm), or not working together with. if there is no recognition that the aims and goals of both ccp and the ccp customers are nearly identical, then there can be no progress.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2010.07.12 19:39:00 - [26]
 

Considering the minutes, the Primae makes perfect sense as a gift, reflecting the stance of CCP (management): Here, have something for free from us, it looks totally cool and is unique and especially made for this new feature and you better be happy about it because it took us much work to do and despite that, we're not going to charge you for it extra. Yet, it is pretty much useless.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.07.12 20:00:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: mazzilliu
the devs need to realize that there is no for/against, no right/wrong, and no enemies here. there is only the possibility of working together with what is possibly their most effective market research team for current subscribers(the csm), or not working together with. if there is no recognition that the aims and goals of both ccp and the ccp customers are nearly identical, then there can be no progress.


Well said.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.07.12 20:14:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: mazzilliu
the devs need to realize that there is no for/against, no right/wrong, and no enemies here. there is only the possibility of working together with what is possibly their most effective market research team for current subscribers(the csm), or not working together with. if there is no recognition that the aims and goals of both ccp and the ccp customers are nearly identical, then there can be no progress.


I kinda think the DEVS do realize that...it's MANAGEMENT that seems to need to "corify" this message. But well said, Mazz.

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.07.12 20:20:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: mazzilliu
the devs need to realize that there is no for/against, no right/wrong, and no enemies here. there is only the possibility of working together with what is possibly their most effective market research team for current subscribers(the csm), or not working together with. if there is no recognition that the aims and goals of both ccp and the ccp customers are nearly identical, then there can be no progress.


Very well put.


Di Mulle
Posted - 2010.07.12 20:23:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Di Mulle on 12/07/2010 20:31:00
Edited by: Di Mulle on 12/07/2010 20:29:25
Originally by: mazzilliu
the devs need to realize that there is no for/against, no right/wrong, and no enemies here. there is only the possibility of working together with what is possibly their most effective market research team for current subscribers(the csm), or not working together with. if there is no recognition that the aims and goals of both ccp and the ccp customers are nearly identical, then there can be no progress.


Well put, just...

What if that target group and their "market research team" is seen by CCP - probably at high management level - as not so important after all ?
As it seems it is the only explanation to me...Sad

All I can say, these minutes have really shaken my trust in CCP (already dented, but just a bit before).

After all, who and how can assure that fate of FOTY Incarna will be better than rest of EVE. Once we are clearly told to stfu, all what's left is forum graphomania... I have a topic for speculation then, what new shiny will doom Incarna to be left in half-finished state forever.


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