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Caminja
Posted - 2010.07.12 02:01:00 - [1]
 

Lets have a look at some of the broken t2 items shall we?

Lets see the point of T2 is that a character must train for a longer period of time in order to use them hence why they are 95% of the time BETTER than their t1 counter parts. The exceptions still are what ****es me off - in many of these cases the t2 not only give no benefit but are WORSE. Lets look at armour plates. 1600mm Rolled Tungsten give out the exact bonus of the t2 steel plates. In fact to make matters worse the t2 version uses MORE cpu, powergrid AND weigh 1 MILLION KG MORE that is 27% HEAVIER with more fitting requirements for the same bonus. That makes perfect sense right?

T2 ammo I will only slightly touch on as it is complete mess I dont feel like getting in to right now. The problem is when it comes down to it faction ammo is better than T2 in almost all cases. T2 ammo has drawbacks and does less dps than faction ammo in many cases. Once again completely stupid as faction ammo can also be use in t1 guns so thus requiring less training.

T2 microwarp drives use more capacitor per cycle, have higher fitting requirements and give out the same thrust and speed bonuses. While they do reduce the total capacitor drawback it ends up still crippling your capacitor recharge WORSE than the t1 version. So we have higher fitting costs, slightly greater cap problems, for the same output. Hm another wonderfully balanced item is it not?

Now lets look at some capacitor power relays. The best named t1 in this case is completely better as the t2 version is obviously borked for no reason. The t2 CPR has higher fitting requirements and has a greater shield boost penalty yet produces the EXACT SAME capacitor recharge bonus. So I can train to use a t2 CPR which will be harder to fit and make my ship worse than the t1? Brilliant! I could have never thought of that.

Now lets look at jammers. Once again we find that the t2 jammers have higher fitting costs for an identical jamming strength and optimal. They also cost roughly 33% more cap per cycle. Oh neat I who knew that t2 could be so useful.



tl;dr

CCP get your ****ing heads out of your asses and fix this garbage already. It is completely a$$ backwards and stupid.


Father Grigori
Amarr
Posted - 2010.07.12 02:02:00 - [2]
 

umad?

Chesty McJubblies
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.07.12 02:02:00 - [3]
 

ibtl. Please do not criticise CCP.

BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.07.12 02:10:00 - [4]
 

can I haz your armor plates?

Warlord Master
Critical Density
Posted - 2010.07.12 02:13:00 - [5]
 

overloading, t2 suppose to handle heat better. though, I never tested it to confirm.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.07.12 02:13:00 - [6]
 

Unfortunately, your whine is undone with one simple word: availability.

Caminja
Posted - 2010.07.12 02:17:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Unfortunately, your whine is undone with one simple word: availability.


availability has nothing to do with t1 vs t2 attributes you moron

Selene D'Celeste
Caldari
The D'Celeste Trading Company
ISK Six
Posted - 2010.07.12 02:18:00 - [8]
 

There are remnants of items in pretty much all classes that were never brought in line with the lineup of items we see today (T, Named, T2, COSMOS, Faction/Deadspace, Officer). You can find exceptions in all types of items that are worse than they should be (such as meta 14 officer being no better than faction, etc).

This should probably be suggested as one of the many tweaks/improvements to go into the constantly asked for "bugfix expansion".

Gladys Pank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
Posted - 2010.07.12 02:21:00 - [9]
 

OP has great ideas. I look forwards to playing his entirely balanced MMO just as soon as it is available.

OH WAIT, he is whining about crap that has had endless threads already.

STFU noob.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.12 02:29:00 - [10]
 

something is wrong emergency reboot plz

Tradefagg
Posted - 2010.07.12 02:30:00 - [11]
 

Then i encourage you, one man, to do better than a whole team of trained developers. Please, go ahead.

PS. Don't bite the hand that feeds, idiot.

Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
Posted - 2010.07.12 02:34:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Caminja
T2 ammo blah blah useless drivel


Barrage ammo would like a word with you, ******.

Ascendic
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.12 02:40:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Ascendic on 12/07/2010 02:41:26
Originally by: Trade***g
Then i encourage you, one man, to do better than a whole team of trained developers. Please, go ahead.

PS. Don't bite the hand that feeds, idiot.


You are forgetting WE PAY THE ****ING HAND THAT FEEDS IDIOT.

Ops points are valid and /support

also it is not about perfect balance it is about plainly broken things. I too find it irritating how this has been over looked for how long?

Gladys Pank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
Posted - 2010.07.12 02:46:00 - [14]
 

Why should all tech II be better than best named modules?

Caminja
Posted - 2010.07.12 02:47:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Gladys Pank
Why should all tech II be better than best named modules?


What is the point of t2 if it is not?

Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
Posted - 2010.07.12 03:02:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Caminja
Originally by: Gladys Pank
Why should all tech II be better than best named modules?


What is the point of t2 if it is not?

A T2 module can be produced which helps with logistics and it may also make the module cheaper than the best named. Just because there is a pattern doesn't mean something is wrong just because it does not follow this pattern.

Barkaial Starfinder
Minmatar
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2010.07.12 03:04:00 - [17]
 

Use the named ones that are better than T2 if you can pay.
Problem solved.

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2010.07.12 03:08:00 - [18]
 

how about we make tech 2 named items. would that silence your tears?

Niccolado Starwalker
Gallente
Shadow Templars
Posted - 2010.07.12 04:35:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 12/07/2010 04:35:15
Originally by: Caminja
Originally by: Tippia
Unfortunately, your whine is undone with one simple word: availability.


availability has nothing to do with t1 vs t2 attributes you moron


Tippia is correct really. And you acts like an ass.


SenshiMaru
Posted - 2010.07.12 04:39:00 - [20]
 

I agree, especially on the subject of Tech-II armor plates. However, please feel free to make your own internet spaceship MMO.

Aiwha
Caldari
101st Space Marine Force
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.07.12 04:44:00 - [21]
 

Its a definite advantage. See, we that are smart enough to check fittings and crunch numbers are going to have better fits than people who just load a boat full of T2 gear.


Count your blessings...

Admiral Pelleon
White Shadow Imperium
Posted - 2010.07.12 04:45:00 - [22]
 

Post with your main or shut the **** up.

Scott McClellan
Forum Posters Anonymous
Posted - 2010.07.12 04:56:00 - [23]
 

I really don't see a problem with this, I'll start from the beginning I guess.


1. T2 modules provide more benefit with tech 1 counterparts, often equivalent to best named. T2 may also contain additional benefits (t2 ammo) and caveats (higher fitting) compared to best named.

2. T2 is not the end-all-be-all. Faction and officer fits are available and used by the very rich. I remember when T2 was way more expensive (280m HAC anyone?). Now T2 is cheap, and forms basic fittings for a lot of ships. If you want to go best named you will pay more ISK. One of T2's inherent advantages is that it is far more commonplace, and if you really want best named, you pay out the ass for it.

Case in point

Heavy missile launcher II: 700K ISK in Jita
"Arbalest" Heavy Missile Launcher: 13.3M ISK in Jita.


Similarly with T2 ammo, faction stuff commonly runs 1000+ISK per shot, T2 has come down a long way so that large T2's range from 200-500. Don't even get me started on Dread Guristas stuff, that's at least 50x more dough.

Also, T2 ammo has benefits the faction stuff won't have, instead of simply being "Federation Navy Iron", Spike is a far better sniping round, more damage, more range. Lots of other T2 ammos have their niche (although there are ****ty ones as well)



Caminja
Posted - 2010.07.12 05:17:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Scott McClellan
I really don't see a problem with this, I'll start from the beginning I guess.


1. T2 modules provide more benefit with tech 1 counterparts, often equivalent to best named. T2 may also contain additional benefits (t2 ammo) and caveats (higher fitting) compared to best named.

2. T2 is not the end-all-be-all. Faction and officer fits are available and used by the very rich. I remember when T2 was way more expensive (280m HAC anyone?). Now T2 is cheap, and forms basic fittings for a lot of ships. If you want to go best named you will pay more ISK. One of T2's inherent advantages is that it is far more commonplace, and if you really want best named, you pay out the ass for it.

Case in point

Heavy missile launcher II: 700K ISK in Jita
"Arbalest" Heavy Missile Launcher: 13.3M ISK in Jita.


Similarly with T2 ammo, faction stuff commonly runs 1000+ISK per shot, T2 has come down a long way so that large T2's range from 200-500. Don't even get me started on Dread Guristas stuff, that's at least 50x more dough.

Also, T2 ammo has benefits the faction stuff won't have, instead of simply being "Federation Navy Iron", Spike is a far better sniping round, more damage, more range. Lots of other T2 ammos have their niche (although there are ****ty ones as well)





Your argument would make sense if it was not for the fact that in your example the t2 launcher is still better than the best named one and much cheaper. The problem is only a few mods are borked and for what reason? There really is not one and they should be fixed to be in line with the rest of the t2 ****. Faction and officer mods are a different animal entirely.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.07.12 07:13:00 - [25]
 

Playing online games since the '80s (when they were called MUDs and you'd connect with some 75-1200 baud modem over intercontinental phone call) I have noticed these ever lasting patterns:

- Games are never perfect

- Most players HTFU and adapt and deal with the situation at hand, seen as challenge

- Others sit down and pointlessy cry loud in a corner, awaiting for someone to fix the world for them.


Nice to see "rules" spanning the decades like that.

Actually, thinking again about it, this applies to RL as well, since millenia, just replace "someone" with "Someone".

Maximillion Carter
Caldari
Swag Co.
Sandbox Bullies
Posted - 2010.07.12 07:25:00 - [26]
 

If you think that T2 kit is pants, why not just use the top end T1 stuff instead and stop moaning!

Nobody is forcing you to use it!

MC

Dr Nefarius
Posted - 2010.07.12 07:29:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Caminja


T2 ammo I will only slightly touch on as it is complete mess I dont feel like getting in to right now. The problem is when it comes down to it faction ammo is better than T2 in almost all cases. T2 ammo has drawbacks and does less dps than faction ammo in many cases. Once again completely stupid as faction ammo can also be use in t1 guns so thus requiring less training.




OK, so you're saying t2 ammo should be better then faction ammo? Laughing
hint: look at the price of faction ammo.

I don't see you claiming that faction modules should be less effective then t2 modules, so why with ammo?

Faction ships/mods/ammo all(?) follow one red line: Higher price then t2, better or same effect as t2 and lower skills needed then for t2. Basically if you have more isk then skillpoints faction is the way to go, but it is at a significantly higher price.

Ocih
Amarr
Space Mermaids
Posted - 2010.07.12 07:58:00 - [28]
 

Loot based economies arent good for player driven economies, I will grant that to the OP but its the same with faction ships. They out perform T2 in every way. For ammo its crystals for me and there isnt so much a difference in price, I actually use some T2 crystals. Aurora for example. Still I suppose you are right in most cases. Meta 4 beat Meta 5 on all fronts. If they remedy it, whats the point in Meta 3 or 4? Damned if they do, damned if they dont.

Orion GUardian
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.12 09:46:00 - [29]
 

You Sir are an idiot

Yes some Meta 4 items are better than the T2 counterparts. Live with it. Mostly their benefits lie in better fitting etc. They are after all "High end Tech 1 items" the best you can get without the hassle of inventing and building Tech 2 Items. So why should they be worse?

The great merit T2 has is this: You dont have to loot it. Its easily available in masses and their actual attributes (not fitting and some drawback though) are on par with Meta 4. Its, as Tippia said: All abaout availability and cost.

You are a narrowminded douchebag if you really think of this as a major fault on CCPs part. Please gb2 WoW or something where you got your nice colors that tell you "this is better than that"

Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network
Dignitas.
Posted - 2010.07.12 09:47:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Dan O''Connor on 12/07/2010 09:48:13
Originally by: Caminja
tl;dr

CCP get your ****ing heads out of your asses and fix this garbage already. It is completely a$$ backwards and stupid.



Why don't you ask the guy who claimed he can code all of EVE in a month with no visible bugs? He can probably help you.


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