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DogSlime
Caldari
Wilde Cards
Posted - 2010.07.13 17:21:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Malcanis


Yeah I'm really pleased that CCP flat-out lied to us about that.

Incarna as a low-resource bonus from WoD development? Sweet, nice thinking. Good synergy there.

Incarna as a giant dev-guzzling resource hog that leaves the game mired in rotting pig-**** for 18 months? Not so nice, you ****ing morons. What the **** were you thinking? You took a giant **** all over your core game, then lied to your customers about how much it cost. Who's short-bus genius strategy was that?

(1) **** over the veteran playerbase who run multiple accounts for a long time
(2) In favour of new players who run one account for a few months
(3) ...?
(4) Profit?


If enough people unsubbed and stated why, CCP would act. Problem is, people won't. CCP can either allocate their resources to their shiney new games, or they can make EVE what it should be. They know - they KNOW that they'll get subscriptions to EVE either way.

If the shiney games prove to be more popular (and more lucrative), will they start to invest in EVE again? If the shiney games are a flop, my guess is that they'll redouble their efforts to try to make them successful.

EVE isn't priority one anymore. It would take a very sharp lesson to CCP - and SOON - if they are going to ever make EVE their top priority again. There won't be any such lesson.

Dragon Greg
Posted - 2010.07.13 17:25:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: DogSlime
Originally by: Malcanis


Yeah I'm really pleased that CCP flat-out lied to us about that.

Incarna as a low-resource bonus from WoD development? Sweet, nice thinking. Good synergy there.

Incarna as a giant dev-guzzling resource hog that leaves the game mired in rotting pig-**** for 18 months? Not so nice, you ****ing morons. What the **** were you thinking? You took a giant **** all over your core game, then lied to your customers about how much it cost. Who's short-bus genius strategy was that?

(1) **** over the veteran playerbase who run multiple accounts for a long time
(2) In favour of new players who run one account for a few months
(3) ...?
(4) Profit?


If enough people unsubbed and stated why, CCP would act. Problem is, people won't. CCP can either allocate their resources to their shiney new games, or they can make EVE what it should be. They know - they KNOW that they'll get subscriptions to EVE either way.

If the shiney games prove to be more popular (and more lucrative), will they start to invest in EVE again? If the shiney games are a flop, my guess is that they'll redouble their efforts to try to make them successful.

EVE isn't priority one anymore. It would take a very sharp lesson to CCP - and SOON - if they are going to ever make EVE their top priority again. There won't be any such lesson.


No. What you have to understand is that CCP is at the top making a conscious decision to follow specific business doctrines. The product is great, but it is coming to a choice between doctrines.

They can afford to recycle the subscriber base, quite easily even. And they have factored it in.

DogSlime
Caldari
Wilde Cards
Posted - 2010.07.13 17:31:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Dragon Greg


No. What you have to understand is that CCP is at the top making a conscious decision to follow specific business doctrines. The product is great, but it is coming to a choice between doctrines.

They can afford to recycle the subscriber base, quite easily even. And they have factored it in.



It's business for sure, but the only revenue stream for that business right now is from subscriptions to their service/product - EVE.

Subscribers to the service/product are unhappy with its flaws. They were led to believe that their concerns were important and that the flaws in the product would be corrected. Now they learn that the flaws will stay because the subscribers money is being used to fund another product.

The subscribers want the money they're paying to be used to improve/repair the product they're paying for.

CCP aren't "wrong" - either legally or morally, but there's a conflict of interest. Before the CSM minutes, that conflict of interest was suspected, but now it's been out-and-out stated.

ThisIsNotMyAlt
Posted - 2010.07.13 17:54:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Riflin' Betty
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
Originally by: Riflin' Betty
Word now is that 3rd party forums discussing this topic, such as SHC are blocked for employees on the CCP premises.


did you really fall for that ? haha niceVery Happy


Nope, but you just fell for my trap quite well. We know who you are now.




lol i doubt that :D

Jason W0rthing
Posted - 2010.07.13 18:02:00 - [65]
 

I just can't believe this. Nothing for 18 months. Nice. Not even a roflkets or AF re-balance on the horizon. What I kind of wanted to see on CCP's 18 month plan was some stuff like...

1. Kill the lag monster. Using whatever means necessary.

2. Low-sec expansion (awesomeness)

3. Improvements to FW, re-vamp cosmos

4. Mining expansion. (To completely re-vamp and fix mining)

5. General additional polish such as re-doing POS mechanics, adding a fifth t3 subsystem, etc..

I'm going to have to wait a minimum of 24 months for any of these. Not fun.

Cedori
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.13 18:08:00 - [66]
 

I've already unsubbed to be honest.

All 3 accounts expire in November, if there hasn't been some rather gigantic change in CCP priorities. Not just empty words, but actual fixes/changes by then, well, I will enjoy RL again without the looks my GF gives me from time to time.

ThisIsNotMyAlt
Posted - 2010.07.13 18:19:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Cedori
I've already unsubbed to be honest.

All 3 accounts expire in November, if there hasn't been some rather gigantic change in CCP priorities. Not just empty words, but actual fixes/changes by then, well, I will enjoy RL again without the looks my GF gives me from time to time.


But are you gonna delete your characters ?

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2010.07.13 18:32:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Riflin' Betty
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Oh, please, you think they'd let you touch their baby? By all accounts, they don't let actual devs work on the game in their free time.


Herschel, by all accounts from the CSM, they don't even let the Devs work on EVE in their paid time. not until they finish the dual abortions that are dust and incarna.


Touché...

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2010.07.13 18:54:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: JASON W0RTHING
Nothing for 18 months. Nice. Not even a roflkets or AF re-balance on the horizon.
Fix Rockets in 2012! (Before we all die)

Ab Tallen
The Alphabet Soup
Posted - 2010.07.13 19:18:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
Originally by: Cedori
I've already unsubbed to be honest.

All 3 accounts expire in November, if there hasn't been some rather gigantic change in CCP priorities. Not just empty words, but actual fixes/changes by then, well, I will enjoy RL again without the looks my GF gives me from time to time.


But are you gonna delete your characters ?


That's nonsense. Do you realize that people love this game, but not the direction CCP is trying to take it to? For my part, I don't intend on throwing away four years of stories and development attached to my character, and I love the thought of being able to come back. But as I wrote elsewhere, I'm not going to pay CCP for waiting until they start to clean up the mess produced by the last couple of expansions (never mind the stuff that has been broken for longer than I can remember).

ThisIsNotMyAlt
Posted - 2010.07.13 19:23:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Ab Tallen
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
Originally by: Cedori
I've already unsubbed to be honest.

All 3 accounts expire in November, if there hasn't been some rather gigantic change in CCP priorities. Not just empty words, but actual fixes/changes by then, well, I will enjoy RL again without the looks my GF gives me from time to time.


But are you gonna delete your characters ?


That's nonsense. Do you realize that people love this game, but not the direction CCP is trying to take it to? For my part, I don't intend on throwing away four years of stories and development attached to my character, and I love the thought of being able to come back. But as I wrote elsewhere, I'm not going to pay CCP for waiting until they start to clean up the mess produced by the last couple of expansions (never mind the stuff that has been broken for longer than I can remember).



exactly that is the reason all the "rage quitting" over the past years have not left a mark on ccp. people say "hey i gonna quit and now ccp wont get my money anymore", but what they then actually do is sell their accounts or give them away, so that indeed they are being continually paid for and thus the intention of the quitter is never reached. people allways talk boldly on the forums they will all quit and stuff, but then silently they continue to hold onto their accounts and do in effect do nothing. if your serious about quitting, delete your chars. thus it is assured this account will never be paid for again.

captain foivos
Posted - 2010.07.13 19:43:00 - [72]
 

All I have to say is: what the hell?

Something like 85% of those proposals were met with "We're looking at it" (sure they have) followed by a "We'll get around to it when we have extra time/resources" (which they never do, and we know that and they know that and we know that they know that we know that)

I don't particularly want walking in stations--that looks nice, but it serves no real purpose. I do want meaningful missile POS defenses. I do want rockets that have a place other than the last high slot on a Dramiel. I do want faction warfare that I'd be willing to try because it's worthwhile. I do want a CCP that's less concerned about churning out new content than it is making EVE a good game.

The primary reason EVE is so popular is because it is inherently different than World of Warcraft and other popular MMOs--yet now CCP is following Blizzard's business model of "Expansions = quality", whereas they started out with "Let's make a quality game. What can we do to improve EVE?". Except that that new model misses the point: expansions filled with new features aren't the only thing that makes EVE a better and more popular game. And simply throwing them out there without considering the implications that they have on the overall workings of EVE is beginning to ruin the experience.

Ab Tallen
The Alphabet Soup
Posted - 2010.07.13 19:45:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
exactly that is the reason all the "rage quitting" over the past years have not left a mark on ccp. people say "hey i gonna quit and now ccp wont get my money anymore", but what they then actually do is sell their accounts or give them away, so that indeed they are being continually paid for and thus the intention of the quitter is never reached.


Thank you so much for not reading what I wrote and just spewing the same blah again. I now know it can safely be ignored.

ThisIsNotMyAlt
Posted - 2010.07.13 19:48:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Ab Tallen

Thank you so much for not reading what I wrote and just spewing the same blah again. I now know it can safely be ignored.



your welcome.

captain foivos
Posted - 2010.07.13 20:07:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
Originally by: Ab Tallen

Thank you so much for not reading what I wrote and just spewing the same blah again. I now know it can safely be ignored.



your welcome.


Further proof that you work for CCP.

ThisIsNotMyAlt
Posted - 2010.07.13 20:12:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: captain foivos
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
Originally by: Ab Tallen

Thank you so much for not reading what I wrote and just spewing the same blah again. I now know it can safely be ignored.



your welcome.


Further proof that you work for CCP.


ccp works for me. (no not really :P)

Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.07.13 20:21:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Camios on 13/07/2010 20:36:16
Edited by: Camios on 13/07/2010 20:23:23
I actually don't know how this will end.
I have learned to love EVE as it is, so I want technology, ui and most gameplay fixes to things that already exist.
But the vision for EVE by CCP, that is provided by the creative director (that is CCP t0rfifrans, right?) is really different from ours, they claim to see further and to make the EVE universe more rich and various, with Incarna and DUST.

They go on with their ambitious project about the ultimate science fiction simulator, but this in the end is not what players want: we want a game. We want fights, we want adventure, we want game politics and economics, and we want to have fun. We don't need a nice "philosophically complete" game world. We want to get a funny and deep gameplay.

For example, it is known that Incarna will not allow fights in station. While for CCP philosophical vision this is okay, this is not okay for the players that want to play with it: only carebears have something to do in station.
So, it is understandable that CCP does not want to include a combat system beacause of eye candy (maybe it's hard to have combat animations at the level of a walking animation), but in the end a player wants something deep to do with it, that involves shooting stuff or people.
Even the carebears have to tank rats!

/begin{eve_is_dying}
And when people say that there will never be a sudden mass unsubscription, they are right. But a worst thing could happen, that is player slowly becoming tired if the game, and leaving one by one. This is somewhat aldready happening, but the rate at which people leave is lesser than the rate at which new player subscribe.
This process could change the playerbase composition, killing the most active players of the game (mostly 0.0, lowsec and wh alliances and corporations), with the result of CCP neglecting even more those areas of the game.
/end{eve_is_dying}

and...

FIX the damn lag! Why at CCP they don't understand that 1000+ pilots fleet fights are not fun? Why they didn't even comment on gameplay solutions to lag (thanks Trebor, you're my hero), that are the only ones that would work?
CCP owes us a non-lag-generating mechanic for sov. It is possible to have coalitions split their forces onto a number of solarsystem at once, this is the only thing that will obviously reduce lag without reducing the epicness of the fights. I think it will even increase the depth of the gameplay.

Heroldyn Yhamad
Posted - 2010.07.13 20:31:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Heroldyn Yhamad on 13/07/2010 20:31:39
Originally by: Camios

/begin{eve_is_dying}
And when people say that there will never be a sudden mass unsubscription, they are right. But a worst thing could happen, that is player slowly becoming tired if the game, and leaving one by one. This is somewhat aldready happening, but the rate at which people leave is lesser than the rate at which new player subscribe.
This process could change the playerbase composition, killing the most active players of the game (mostly 0.0, lowsec and wh alliances and corporations), with the result of CCP neglecting even more those areas of the game.
/end{eve_is_dying}


Most active players are 0.0, lowsec and wh alliances? I don´t buy that. Maybe most active on the forums. Cool
Besides there is a statisic I believe in one of the QEN that show only a very small fraction of the playerbase are in 0.0 and lowsec.

I agree about fixing bugs being more important then adding new content but i also think that Incarna and Dust are important milestones for the EVE-Brand.

Magna Monez
Posted - 2010.07.13 20:48:00 - [79]
 

I think the real problem is that they have a bottleneck in developer talent that actually understands the EVE internals and can be trusted to make major changed to the code without ****ing things up.

That is why new people can be put on relatively light weight new stuff like eve-gate, PI etc. (New stuff is also where unit testing and scrum etc. seems to work well.)

- Gameplay Balance (How to avoid the need for massive fleet fights?)
- Lag Fixing (architecture changes)
- UI functionality overhaul

are what is really needed but developers who worked on that originally may have moved on or are now dealing with kids at home and just do not have the time to get in the zone as they used to.

That said there really is no excuse to not have small teams dedicated full time on features that were left half finished like FW.

Mazzarins Demise
Profit Development and Research Association
Posted - 2010.07.13 21:14:00 - [80]
 

No surprise here. CCP needs to continue working on their ambitious projects.

Full steam ahead.

Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.07.13 21:29:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Heroldyn Yhamad
Edited by: Heroldyn Yhamad on 13/07/2010 20:31:39
Originally by: Camios

/begin{eve_is_dying}
And when people say that there will never be a sudden mass unsubscription, they are right. But a worst thing could happen, that is player slowly becoming tired if the game, and leaving one by one. This is somewhat aldready happening, but the rate at which people leave is lesser than the rate at which new player subscribe.
This process could change the playerbase composition, killing the most active players of the game (mostly 0.0, lowsec and wh alliances and corporations), with the result of CCP neglecting even more those areas of the game.
/end{eve_is_dying}


Most active players are 0.0, lowsec and wh alliances? I don´t buy that. Maybe most active on the forums. Cool
Besides there is a statisic I believe in one of the QEN that show only a very small fraction of the playerbase are in 0.0 and lowsec.



1. By activity I mean something that creates game content for other players. Players in empire (apart from pirates and griefers that I respect very much) do not create game and content for others, they play a sort of single player game, and
2. You're right with the statistics, but I just think that this means we need more reasons and possibilities for people to get into lowsec and 0.0.
Everybody knows that lowsec is just a playground with no value, and conquerable space gameplay is boring because of lag.
People stay in empire because for many people it's the best place to stay.

Originally by: Heroldyn Yhamad

I agree about fixing bugs being more important then adding new content but i also think that Incarna and Dust are important milestones for the EVE-Brand.


These milestones have to prove to be worth their expectation. Full body avatars without a combat system is quite pointless to me, and many people. The only form of player interaction will be bumping, gambling and minigames... and DUST has very strong competitors, let's see how many players are they going to get.


Heroldyn Yhamad
Posted - 2010.07.13 21:50:00 - [82]
 

Quote:

These milestones have to prove to be worth their expectation. Full body avatars without a combat system is quite pointless to me, and many people. The only form of player interaction will be bumping, gambling and minigames... and DUST has very strong competitors, let's see how many players are they going to get.



How do you know what forms of Player-Interaction there will be in Incarna? Only because they have only yet shown minigames and chatting doesnt mean that is it. Also why does it need a combat system so desperatly to have meaningfull player-interaction/be competetive?
Research/Production/Market are all mechanics within eve that provide competition amongst players and are based on players interaction with each other in a non combat way. I dont see why within Incarna there could not be a similar mechanic.

Nontheless I think that at any point there should be a dedicated Bug-Fixing dev team within CCP, while other teams focus on new features and also that when the SCRUM goals/features are decided they should look back more at improving old features.

Loi Shaini
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.07.13 22:52:00 - [83]
 

If anyone truly thinks that Eve is dead/dying - they have large lumps of veldspar in their heads. If you look at some of the real train-wrecks out there in MMO land (for example ... StarWarsGalaxies - may she rest in peace) they are all still going, and never got anywhere near the state that Eve is in atm. There is enough in the game in terms of content and shiny things to continue to bring the punters in. And to CCP - that is what matters.

Expansions are there and being worked on because that is what they promised the market. So who is going to be more important - a few whiny internet spaceship flying players or the folks who have their hard earned readies invested in CCP. It's so cute though that some of the folks here - and the CSM - actually believe that they can make any difference.

What some people in here don't seem to understand is that their actual numbers in game mean diddly squat to CCP. They may give you a nice room to play (0.0), some nice toys (that you are already getting bored with) and some fancy titles to flash your epeen's with (CSM), but at the end of the day, if you decide to unsub and leave - there is a whole heap of people out there just waiting to replace you. So go ahead and rage-emo quit - who cares, heck you can burn your stuff and sell your characters and vow never to come back .... and by the time I just typed this you have been replaced by 5 other new players subbing Very Happy .

And if you think you are "special" because you have been here since 2003 or 2004 or 2005 and have "invested so much time" in Eve (both in game and out of game) - then you probably are special, in your own unique way Wink.

Noun Verber
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.13 23:14:00 - [84]
 

I picked up that it looks like Incarna will be staged in (hopefully not like the PI disaster) beginning with new avatar tools in a winter expansion (ie the next one?).

Hopefully they actually finish the feature that's apparently so important to them.

Paint Thinner
The Grubs
Posted - 2010.07.14 06:50:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Paint Thinner on 14/07/2010 06:50:23
Edited by: Paint Thinner on 14/07/2010 06:49:53
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/07/2010 22:30:25
"Speaking on behalf of CCP, Nathan disagreed strongly with the claim that CCP isn’t committed to excellence. He pointed out that CCP probably spends a bigger part of its income on development than most other large, established game companies. He stated that this is a clear sign of this commitment."
No... it really isn't. It's a sign that you do more development, not put more polish on that development.




This right here was easily one of the most disturbing answers in the whole summary.

If cost equaled excellence the New York Rangers would have won 20 Stanley Cups, NASA would have parked a major city on ****ing Pluto by now and Waterworld would have been the next Citizen Kane.

Sure, spending heavy scratch on development shows that you are willing to foot the steep numbers required to make a quality game in this genre. However, that does not mean that said resources are being used appropriately.

DogSlime
Caldari
Wilde Cards
Posted - 2010.07.14 12:41:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Loi Shaini
What some people in here don't seem to understand is that their actual numbers in game mean diddly squat to CCP. They may give you a nice room to play (0.0), some nice toys (that you are already getting bored with) and some fancy titles to flash your epeen's with (CSM), but at the end of the day, if you decide to unsub and leave - there is a whole heap of people out there just waiting to replace you. So go ahead and rage-emo quit - who cares, heck you can burn your stuff and sell your characters and vow never to come back .... and by the time I just typed this you have been replaced by 5 other new players subbing Very Happy


You reckon? 5 Starters for every leaver? That's a serious exponential growth. Unsubbing due to poor product support is not rage-emo quitting.

I doubt I am alone in this... My 5 day re-activation runs out shortly. I won't delete my characters because CCP might decide to do the necessary work on EVE. If they sort EVE out, I will definitely resub and CCP will definitely have my money.

Originally by: Loi Shaini
And if you think you are "special" because you have been here since 2003 or 2004 or 2005 and have "invested so much time" in Eve (both in game and out of game) - then you probably are special, in your own unique way Wink.


Paying customers have a right to expect decent service. There's nothing about "special" in all this. Many subscribers have put up with paying for what they consider to be a poorer service because CCP said that the problems would be addressed. Now CCP are saying that the problems must remain for at least a year - more likely two years.

Libin Herobi
Posted - 2010.07.14 13:17:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Loi Shaini

What some people in here don't seem to understand is that their actual numbers in game mean diddly squat to CCP. They may give you a nice room to play (0.0), some nice toys (that you are already getting bored with) and some fancy titles to flash your epeen's with (CSM), but at the end of the day, if you decide to unsub and leave - there is a whole heap of people out there just waiting to replace you. So go ahead and rage-emo quit - who cares, heck you can burn your stuff and sell your characters and vow never to come back .... and by the time I just typed this you have been replaced by 5 other new players subbing Very Happy


Those 5 people do not join because I leave.
It's not like you have to wait for an open seat so you can join.

A lost customer is a lost customer.
Losing her/him and getting 5 new customers is not better than not losing her/him and getting 5 new customers.

Helicity Boson
Amarr
The Python Cartel.
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2010.07.14 13:45:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: Helicity Boson on 14/07/2010 13:57:42
http://machine9.net/sigs/lolveur.gif

there you go. sig worthy.


Dakisha
The NomNomNom
Posted - 2010.07.14 15:02:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Helicity Boson
Edited by: Helicity Boson on 14/07/2010 13:57:42
http://machine9.net/sigs/lolveur.gif

there you go. sig worthy.




About sums it up really

Auri Hella
Downwind Trading Guild
Posted - 2010.07.14 15:19:00 - [90]
 

These minutes are a depressing read. While the CSM seems to have done their job CCP's attitude is deplorable.


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