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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:15:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o
Edited by: 0oO0oOoOo0o on 09/07/2010 18:10:17...
CCP, can you make a change that really matters ? Can you give us the option to buy an attribute remap timer reset for 1 plex, so that we don't have to wait a whole year ? I bet this way you'd "remove" much more plexes from the game than in potential destructions while being in the cargo of a ganked ship.


actually, i'd support that. alternate use for PLEX would most certainly make a difference.

Zarch AlDain
GK inc.
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:15:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Elgaris Dukor
Hello CCP,

Im not sure this is a good change (well mabe for you. I explain later). While you can compare the value of a PLEX to other ingame items they are still not the same.
PLEX are nothing more than kondensed game time. This makes them special towards every other item. If 300m ship explodes its gone but there is no effect outside of the game. If a PLEX gets destroyed 30 days of gametime vanish that have to be bought again! This makes you effectively 15 for every PLEX that gets destroyed.

I do not appreciate this changes, because it is a machanic that lets players consume more gametime without acctually getting more gametime.

Elgaris


They are the same. Isk in game can be converted to any other item including plexes. Any loss of isk equivelant to the cost of a plex is identical as you need to earn the same amount of isk to replace it.

I'd really like to see a way to apply plexes to inactive accounts though - that's the thing needed for them to actually become useful for me and until then I'm stuck using gtcs.

Laodell
Gallente
United Brothers Of Eve
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:21:00 - [123]
 

Now we can gank for game time!!

Empire or otherwise!

Ohhh yeaaaa!

- Dell.

Dacil Arandur
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:23:00 - [124]
 

I like how people in this tread are implying that CCP making a change to a game mechanic that could result in them making more money, or even if the sole purpose was to make more money, is a bad thing.

Don't you guys play EVE? Do your EVE corporations try to make money? Is your character greedy or do you give away all your battleships and hand out free BPCs to everyone you meet?

That's what companies do, good ones at least - they make money.
This is a brilliant change that both makes CCP more money (exactly what they want as a for-profit organization) and adds a new and interesting angle to the game.
They aren't adding a single extra layer of risk to PLEX for people who don't want to take the risk. As has been mentioned, the only people who will risk losing PLEX are the people trying to move it out of their own greed.

Also, in this thread there are a lot of people not understanding the laws of supply and demand. If the price of PLEX goes up, more people will buy GTCs to sell as PLEX... and the price will go back down. It will balance out and we all win.. including CCP.

Elgaris Dukor
Caldari
Femti Runa Eru
ParadoXon Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:23:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Zarch AlDain
Originally by: Elgaris Dukor
Hello CCP,

Im not sure this is a good change (well mabe for you. I explain later). While you can compare the value of a PLEX to other ingame items they are still not the same.
PLEX are nothing more than kondensed game time. This makes them special towards every other item. If 300m ship explodes its gone but there is no effect outside of the game. If a PLEX gets destroyed 30 days of gametime vanish that have to be bought again! This makes you effectively 15 for every PLEX that gets destroyed.

I do not appreciate this changes, because it is a machanic that lets players consume more gametime without acctually getting more gametime.

Elgaris


They are the same. Isk in game can be converted to any other item including plexes. Any loss of isk equivelant to the cost of a plex is identical as you need to earn the same amount of isk to replace it.




No you you cant convert isk to a PLEX. Thats a major misconception. You can trade isk for PLEX and vice versa but you cant convert it into each other. If you buy a PLEX for isk somebody else did buy a GTC and did convert that GTC into PLEX.

Elgaris.

ArchenTheGreat
Caldari
Pulsar Nebulah
Army of Lovers.
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:31:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Elgaris Dukor

No you you cant convert isk to a PLEX. Thats a major misconception. You can trade isk for PLEX and vice versa but you cant convert it into each other. If you buy a PLEX for isk somebody else did buy a GTC and did convert that GTC into PLEX.



True, but from your point of view you just bought game time with your ISK. That ISK came from missioning or mining or you just sold your officer item. PLEX is no different from any other game item or pure ISK as long as there is someone supplying them. And I am sure you will always find someone with too much $$$ and not enough ISK - so no worriesm there will always be some PLEX on market.

jasanpete
T1TS or GTFO
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:34:00 - [127]
 

I think >>

CCP didn't make enough cash this year, So making it possible for pilots to lose a PLEX means they should get more sales, Very clever, if xxxxx% of PLEX sold get destroyed that means CCP will be selling more plex,

BTW love the idea, now i can sit in perimeter and scan people for plex cards aswell as officer mods, Woot CCP

Some Advisor
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:34:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o
Hardly anyone will transport a plex in a ship that is not 100% safe from ganks, there is no point for the pirates to yarr so loud in this thread.



lots of faction gear popped in an UNtanked/fitted iteron V 2 years ago roughly.
i think your name also rings a bell.

and plex is "just" 300m

Flesh Slurper
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:36:00 - [129]
 

This is a good change.

In reality a plex is no different than any 300 mil ish item, so transport it with the same care you would move any other valuable cargo. You also can keep it in the station if you want and not move it.. the choice is yours.

Lederstrumpf
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:39:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Polo Ex
the only problem is that you didnt mention if we can still activate it anywhere. If thats the case then no one will bother to move it


I will move them.

Elgaris Dukor
Caldari
Femti Runa Eru
ParadoXon Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:41:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: ArchenTheGreat
Originally by: Elgaris Dukor

No you you cant convert isk to a PLEX. Thats a major misconception. You can trade isk for PLEX and vice versa but you cant convert it into each other. If you buy a PLEX for isk somebody else did buy a GTC and did convert that GTC into PLEX.



True, but from your point of view you just bought game time with your ISK. That ISK came from missioning or mining or you just sold your officer item. PLEX is no different from any other game item or pure ISK as long as there is someone supplying them. And I am sure you will always find someone with too much $$$ and not enough ISK - so no worriesm there will always be some PLEX on market.


Yes you just said it yourself: "Someone has to supply them". And the only supply of PLEX is comming from real life money. There is the difference. A ship can be repleced by mining the minerals and building it. IF a PLEX is destroyed it can only be replaced by spending real life money!
And it does not matter if you did pay that money or someone else. Its money that goes directly to CCP.

Elgaris.

Comnitus Ultima
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:42:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Comnitus Ultima on 09/07/2010 18:43:12
Originally by: Flesh Slurper
This is a good change.

In reality a plex is no different than any 300 mil ish item, so transport it with the same care you would move any other valuable cargo. You also can keep it in the station if you want and not move it.. the choice is yours.


Right. This strikes me as purely an aesthetic change - they don't want the PLEX to be a "special" item anymore, so they're removing it's "special" attributes. No big deal. People will still use them the same way they always have, except now they can move them to more profitable markets.

Speaking of which, I'm among those who wonder how these changes will affect the price. I say it stays roughly the same, higher in some places and maybe even lower in others. Basically it becomes like every other item in the game - which is what CCP wants. And as for them making more money off the changes? Maybe, if people do decide to buy more PLEXes to replace any they lose. Or maybe they'll pay $15/mo like normal MMO players and won't have anything to whine about.

iudex
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:44:00 - [133]
 

Quote:
Maybe we're a little crazy, yes, but we truly think the benefits outweigh the risks here. One of them is to combat the perception that PLEX is a more valuable item than others in the game which, of course, it isn't (anyone who has lost a titan/carrier/T2 BS/etc knows this full well).
...
Well, really, we don't like items having "special status" in the game.



Is that perception, which you like to combat, really that wrong ? The PLEX actually does have a special status:
If someone destroys a titan/carrier/T2 BS/etc this is no diffrence for you, the CCP.
If however someone destroys a PLEX, you don't have to grant someone 30 days of subscription time, while you had to do this before the deletion of the PLEX. In the end you got ~15$ for free and with no obligation, if a PLEX disappears in a ship destruction process. IMHO that's a substantial diffrence compared to other items for you, the CCP.

Flesh Slurper
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:50:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: iudex


Is that perception, which you like to combat, really that wrong ? The PLEX actually does have a special status:
If someone destroys a titan/carrier/T2 BS/etc this is no diffrence for you, the CCP.
If however someone destroys a PLEX, you don't have to grant someone 30 days of subscription time, while you had to do this before the deletion of the PLEX. In the end you got ~15$ for free and with no obligation, if a PLEX disappears in a ship destruction process. IMHO that's a substantial diffrence compared to other items for you, the CCP.



I disagree, All things in the game ultimately come from someone's time, which translates to game play purchased. So even if someone didn't buy the titan BPO with their own RL $, they still took a lot of people's time to get it, which translates to rl cash.


Dacil Arandur
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:51:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Elgaris Dukor

And it does not matter if you did pay that money or someone else. Its money that goes directly to CCP.
Elgaris.


Explain again why this is a bad thing?
- CCP Makes more money (good thing).
- People who sell PLEX make more ISK if the price goes up (good thing).
- People who buy PLEX to use as game time make ZERO CHANGE (good thing).
- More interesting things to do with PLEX (good thing).
- More risk, more reward through arbitrage between regional markets (good thing).

Not really seeing the downside here.
Why are you so against CCP making more money in a way that makes thing more interesting and fun for us?

Elgaris Dukor
Caldari
Femti Runa Eru
ParadoXon Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:53:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Flesh Slurper
Originally by: iudex


Is that perception, which you like to combat, really that wrong ? The PLEX actually does have a special status:
If someone destroys a titan/carrier/T2 BS/etc this is no diffrence for you, the CCP.
If however someone destroys a PLEX, you don't have to grant someone 30 days of subscription time, while you had to do this before the deletion of the PLEX. In the end you got ~15$ for free and with no obligation, if a PLEX disappears in a ship destruction process. IMHO that's a substantial diffrence compared to other items for you, the CCP.



I disagree, All things in the game ultimately come from someone's time, which translates to game play purchased. So even if someone didn't buy the titan BPO with their own RL $, they still took a lot of people's time to get it, which translates to rl cash.




I hardly disaggree. PLEX do not come from someones time. Whatever you do you can never create a PLEX with ingame mechanics. A PLEX is always created by spending real life money.

Elgaris.

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:54:00 - [137]
 

I can't see people moving these things around in space very often, but there's always going to be one of those boneheads that auto pilots with one in his shuttle through Jita...

Anyway, I'm totally with CCP on this one. Items shouldn't have a special status. Good change, I approve.

Cyrus Doul
E0 Corp
Posted - 2010.07.09 18:56:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Larkonis Trassler


The vast majority of people who buy PLEXs do so for resale (protip: subscriptions are generally much more efficient RL money wise than PLEXs).




Actually lark. Unless there are systems in place such as taxes that stop this. 60 day gtcs are 35 USD which is equal to 2 plex, For me to buy two months on sub it cost me 15 US dollars, for someone in Europe it cost them 27 euros to get a plex. for a Brit to with GPB its only 23.20.

Could be completely wrong, I live in the USA and don't know how much monopoly money you make per hour or if there is some weird tax added to internet purchases. But if it does translate to where you make 10 pounds an hour and i make 10 USD an hour for the same job, Subs only make sense for Non Euro players.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:02:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o
CCP, can you make a change that really matters ? Can you give us the option to buy an attribute remap timer reset for 1 plex, so that we don't have to wait a whole year ? I bet this way you'd "remove" much more plexes from the game than in potential destructions while being in the cargo of a ganked ship.

Supported.

iudex
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:06:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Flesh Slurper

I disagree, All things in the game ultimately come from someone's time, which translates to game play purchased. So even if someone didn't buy the titan BPO with their own RL $, they still took a lot of people's time to get it, which translates to rl cash.




Ok but this isn't in contradiction to my post. No matter how you got that titan, if you lose/destroy it, this doesn't change anything for CCP at this point in time.
If you lose/destroy a PLEX though, you free CCP from the obligation to give someone a 30 days access to the game in the future. This shows that a PLEX (which may be owned by CCP) is more than just a pixel item: it contains a claim/demand/entitlement (or whatever it is called in English)to be granted a 30 day subscription once the holder of the PLEX klicks on it and choses the "redeem" option.

Matalino
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:11:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: TimT7
I can totally understand the change from CCP's point of view, I would like the free money too without having to provide anything (game content) in return.
If CCP wanted to get free money they could spawn ISK to buy PLEX's off the market and dispose of them however they want. There would be no public announcement or even awareness. They would quietly buy up PLEX supplies using alts and make them disappear.

While CCP will gain a small profit from the destroyed PLEX's, I doubt that it will even be enough to offset the increased costs to their GM department in handling petitions from players whining about the loss of their PLEX's, both those that were destroyed and those that were looted. The more I think about it, the more I believe that the intangible costs to CCP will out weigh the tangible profits from allowing PLEX's to bet taken into space.

Larkonis Trassler
Doctrine.
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:15:00 - [142]
 

Edited by: Larkonis Trassler on 09/07/2010 19:16:27
Originally by: Cyrus Doul
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler


The vast majority of people who buy PLEXs do so for resale (protip: subscriptions are generally much more efficient RL money wise than PLEXs).




Actually lark. Unless there are systems in place such as taxes that stop this. 60 day gtcs are 35 USD which is equal to 2 plex, For me to buy two months on sub it cost me 15 US dollars, for someone in Europe it cost them 27 euros to get a plex. for a Brit to with GPB its only 23.20.

Could be completely wrong, I live in the USA and don't know how much monopoly money you make per hour or if there is some weird tax added to internet purchases. But if it does translate to where you make 10 pounds an hour and i make 10 USD an hour for the same job, Subs only make sense for Non Euro players.


Meh, YMMV. It used to be quite cost worth it to buy GTCs in dollars and apply them to your account if you lived in the Eurozone. Now, not so much. A $35, 60 day GTC works out at around 28 Euros, so marginally worth buying if you are funding two individual accounts on a month by month basis by splitting the GTC (if you sub for longer periods at a time you get a discount). But then again, if you are purchasing PLEX in such a fashion to fund your own accounts why the hell would you need to undock with them?

Amarok Tonrar
5ER3NITY INC
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:18:00 - [143]
 

YAY!! Another change for the whiners to whine about!!

Seriously people?? I mean, if you don't like the change, guess what!! You can continue living your Eve lives as if the change never took place! So the way I see it, it's a win times 4!
1. Whiners win cuz they never have to move it.
2. Sellers win cuz they can move it to a more profitable region if needed.
3. Pirates win cuz they get the chance to gank it or get it as a kill drop.
4. CCP wins cuz they got money for basically nothing when it gets destroyed!

And yet...still the tears flow! Wow people never cease to amaze me....

Max Hardcase
The Scope
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:19:00 - [144]
 

Really, who cares ?
People have been blown up with serious ****loads of valuable crap in their cargo hold before. Sometimes items worth considerably more than 300M isk, so really, who cares ?

Personally I have fond memories of an RA officer raven spawn where just the overseer effects that dropped had a ~3B value , let alone the faction modules.




Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:28:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 09/07/2010 19:30:48
Interesting change.

I'd feel more comfortable about it if PLEXes always dropped as loot when the courier's ship is destroyed. It's not that I object to the change per se; it's that there is a big perception difference between 'Person X made a load of virtual items, and damn if they didn't just all vapourise' and 'Person X bought some gametime, and CCP no longer have to honour that'. Feels like free money to me, and you know what they say about that.

Essentially, whilst there is no legal leg to stand on that I can see, one could argue that CCP are effectively taking money and then not honouring their sale obligations, in the abstract, across multiple players (since I assume people are buying & moving PLEXes for trade).

This is a perception argument rather than a logical or legal one (in that if I were arguing with a lawyer, CCP are indeed honouring their direct individual sale obligations), and thus is very much in the eye of the beholder, subjective, and all that. To this capsuleer, it just feels that tiny bit... dirty, in a Google 'do no evil' kind of way.

The rest of it; sure; knock yourselves out Twisted Evil
Originally by: Max Hardcase
People have been blown up with serious ****loads of valuable crap in their cargo hold before. Sometimes items worth considerably more than 300M isk, so really, who cares?

Those items never ever in any of their digital virtual lifetimes ever had any real money value attached. Like it or not, there is a perceptive difference. There is equally a difference between effective value (I spent X time in game, costing this much, thus items produced are worth Y) which is meaningless because currency trade doesn't work like that, and real traded value (this item is genuinely worth X in real currency).

Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:37:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 09/07/2010 19:37:18
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
...

Originally by: Max Hardcase
People have been blown up with serious ****loads of valuable crap in their cargo hold before. Sometimes items worth considerably more than 300M isk, so really, who cares?

Those items never ever in any of their digital virtual lifetimes ever had any real money value attached. Like it or not, there is a perceptive difference. There is equally a difference between effective value (I spent X time in game, costing this much, thus items produced are worth Y) which is meaningless because currency trade doesn't work like that, and real traded value (this item is genuinely worth X in real currency).


note that PLEX neither has real money value attached. you can't legally sell PLEX for money, same way you can't legally sell non-PLEX items for money. same way, their ISK value is what players are willing to pay.

Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:40:00 - [147]
 

Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 09/07/2010 19:50:25
Originally by: Jagga Spikes
note that PLEX neither has real money value attached. you can't legally sell PLEX for money, same way you can't legally sell non-PLEX items for money. same way, their ISK value is what players are willing to pay.

You're not wrong, but this is what I meant about perception. It's impossible to argue that one position is right and the other is wrong, because what we're dealing with is the intangible 'what is this worth?'.

The PLEX was worth something in real currency at one point. The same cannot be said for any virtual made items on the server. It thus has an associated value, in the same way that today $1 has an associated value of 66 UK pence. Nobody defined that except as the collective perception of a lot of people trading it.

Bear in mind that currency is effectively a sophisticated barter system, and the idea that somewhere along the lines the barter is allowed to become 'and you give me that, and I'll give you nothing' doesn't fit that well. In the real world, done directly between two individuals who agreed something different, that is called fraud - so I can understand and empathise with those attaching real monetary value to PLEXes and expressing some concern.

Edit: Just to be 100% clear, I would not support a conclusion that CCP is committing fraud; they're not - but I can see why, at a perception level rather than a legal one, people would be a bit nervous of such a thing, and I'll admit it makes me a tad nervous as well, as a precedent more than anything. It's somewhat flaky in that every month or two I send money to CCP anyway in the hope that they don't decide to turn off the server, over which I have no control, but meh, it's a touch more personal with PLEXes.

I hasten to add, it's not going to affect me one whit; I am merely observing that it feels somehow just that single bit off out of a few bytes of otherwise good change.

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:42:00 - [148]
 

Ok, I do not see the major gain for either the players or CCP for this change, so I'll ask this:

Why the are you spending time on meetings, coding, blog writing and whatever on such petty things as this at a time like now? What suddenly makes this change so important that it can precede other issues that could have done with a bit of attention years ago?

Where the heck is the CSM?

Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:44:00 - [149]
 

Came here expecting a Factional Warfare fix...

Left disappointed Neutral

Amarok Tonrar
5ER3NITY INC
Posted - 2010.07.09 19:54:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Bear in mind that currency is effectively a sophisticated barter system, and the idea that somewhere along the lines the barter is allowed to become 'and you give me that, and I'll give you nothing' doesn't fit that well. In the real world, done directly between two individuals who agreed something different, that is called fraud - so I can understand and empathise with those attaching real monetary value to PLEXes and expressing some concern.


Initially, that may sound right. But the problem with that statement is, your buying a virtual item. An item that really only exists as bits and bytes and therefore, lays within a lot of gray areas. It's not until you apply that to your account that it becomes tangible. What you do with a virtual item up to the time of applying it to an account is still in your control. If you lose it via being killed in a game while having it in your cargo hold, it was a risk YOU took with it and thus should not, and I would think could not, hold CCP liable for that loss. It's the same as buying a GTC from a convenience store. You buy it, and somehow get robbed of it or lose it on your way home, is the store or the game company responsible for replacing that GTC?

Either way, I'm sure CCP has covered the legal aspects of this and thus is really a mute topic.


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