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Droxlyn
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.09 14:20:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Droxlyn on 09/07/2010 14:23:49
Edited by: Droxlyn on 09/07/2010 14:21:42
I was just going to stop doing my extraction runs out of fatigue, but after discovering my factories were unevenly chewing through materials too fast, I'm just not going to do any more.

How long do we have until the "Great PI Novelty Crash" when everybody else gets tired of dealing with its tedium and/or bugs?

Drox

P.S. I'm not quitting eve, and no, you can't have my stuff.

Shonali
Posted - 2010.07.09 14:37:00 - [2]
 

Many people are patiently awaiting this 'fatigue' to set in so we can make more isk Laughing

Actually, as a casual player (no time to spend large blocks online), I find the 15 minutes of managing the factories to be a good payback. That and datacores.

Droxlyn
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.09 14:42:00 - [3]
 

I was trying to be on the patient side, but it just isn't going to happen for me...

It didn't help to see 3 days of stuff turn into a half-day's worth of stuff in 24 hours.

Drox

Maluminse
Caldari
Out Siders
Posted - 2010.07.09 15:19:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Maluminse on 09/07/2010 15:19:25
Originally by: Shonali
Many people are patiently awaiting this 'fatigue' to set in so we can make more isk Laughing

Actually, as a casual player (no time to spend large blocks online), I find the 15 minutes of managing the factories to be a good payback. That and datacores.


I agree and await with much hope the impending click induced rage quit of 90% of PI-ers.

I wasn't going to, but someone will, so to the OP: u mad? (sorry)

Morglum
Posted - 2010.07.09 16:45:00 - [5]
 

I am also waiting for that to happen. I happen to enjoy PI very much and am making more money with it than doing level 4 missions solo. I do pick up all the salvage stuff too. Right now, I just watch the market and make what is selling. The market will not be stable for months and months. At times such as this the researcher can make loads of cash. You can to. I make 20 Mil a day easy, and I am not maximizing my process. I am still just playing around trying to see what works and doesn't.

Red Raider
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.07.09 22:11:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Morglum
I am also waiting for that to happen. I happen to enjoy PI very much and am making more money with it than doing level 4 missions solo. I do pick up all the salvage stuff too. Right now, I just watch the market and make what is selling. The market will not be stable for months and months. At times such as this the researcher can make loads of cash. You can to. I make 20 Mil a day easy, and I am not maximizing my process. I am still just playing around trying to see what works and doesn't.


I just thought I would point out that I can easily make 25 million an hour running lvl 4's without salvaging or looting.

cyndrogen
Posted - 2010.07.09 22:17:00 - [7]
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_game_difficulty_balancing

To me Pi breaks the immersive game experience because you notice
the click sink, I have run 100's of missions and mined for hours
at a time and while I clicked a lot I never noticed it as
much as when I started to make Pi materials.

Pi is new and I understand that it takes time to improve
a game mechanic but as of now, Pi is a failure as a game because
it takes you out of the game experience.

Lars Scanier
Posted - 2010.07.10 00:09:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Lars Scanier on 10/07/2010 00:11:59
Originally by: Red Raider
Originally by: Morglum
I am also waiting for that to happen. I happen to enjoy PI very much and am making more money with it than doing level 4 missions solo. I do pick up all the salvage stuff too. Right now, I just watch the market and make what is selling. The market will not be stable for months and months. At times such as this the researcher can make loads of cash. You can to. I make 20 Mil a day easy, and I am not maximizing my process. I am still just playing around trying to see what works and doesn't.


I just thought I would point out that I can easily make 25 million an hour running lvl 4's without salvaging or looting.


How many clicks does that take?

I have 20 planets, with 16 of them loaded with 10 extractors each. So I need to restart 160 extractors a day, at 4 clicks each. So for an hour, while running an anomoly on another screen I need to do 600 clicks to make 50M/day. Not a bad side income.

Tamarana
Minmatar
C.L.A.W.
Posted - 2010.07.10 00:25:00 - [9]
 

I, also, am a bit tired of clicking the extractors.
But, I now understand that:
1) You need Planetology lvl 4 and Advance Planetology at minimum lvl 4 (better 5 5) to be able to place your extractors to the best spots.
2) You need to work with planets in very Low Sec (0.1), 0.0 or WH) to obtain really high extraction rates.
3) For what matter, PI in high sec is mainly "buy P1 produce P2-P3-P4-P5". This is what I'm doing now. With an interesting profit margin.

People with high skill (place the plants correctly) and access to these planets is able, from what I read here, to extract two or three time what I was able to extract in 0.3. So they can go with 30/23h cycles and do as good as me with 15/5h cycles or 5m/30m cycles.
People with access to good planets have a good isk incentive to put their best efforts to extract and turn P0 goods in P1 goods, then sell them. Producing P2 from P1 take up Power and CPU needed by Extractors and Basic Industry Facilities, make the design of the colony more complex and less efficient (but they need less clicks to restart the extractors). Better settle for more extractors and BIF and make it easier to manage.
They can do 200k/hour per installation (maybe 250 k/h) with 30/23h cycles. Put up 5 installations, it is 1 M/h doing ~50 click a day. 720M/30days (with one character).
Not exactly bad.

We, in high sec, can only take the P1 from the market and use to produce the needed P2 to P5 stuff. The profit could be like their, with the same relevant skills and installations/planets. The cons are you would need more money to start and you are more subject to the market forces. Where the P0-P1 producers can not lose (the make less or nothing), the P2-P3-P4-P5 producers that buy from the market can lose if the market move in the wrong directions after they buy (or they can gain if it move in the right direction).

HandSoLow
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.07.10 00:31:00 - [10]
 

I think PI is great and all those who do not like it at all, are the guys and girls I LOVE! Why? Less competition ;)

PI does need to be updated, but I think the basics are great. It does have potential and it is fantastic for those who live in wormhole space.

Mal Lokrano
Gallente
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2010.07.10 01:14:00 - [11]
 

personally I like PI, it allows me to make POS fuel for lower cost than if i bought it elsewhere, considering the opportunity cost is what 15 minutes to set everything up for the day? Sure buying it may be faster but you also have to factor in possible logistics time.

Ky'rena
Posted - 2010.07.10 05:03:00 - [12]
 

lol i love PI and i am running 15 planets. Clicking is really not that bad of an issue as it was to start.

I run duel monitors and while one toon is surveying.. i am selecting a rate on the other and then selecting the next extractor to surveying and then back to the first toon.

At least for what i am focusing on is making POS fuel. Now i never have to buy it again let along go around and collect it all from buy orders.

Forge Trader
Posted - 2010.07.10 07:21:00 - [13]
 

PI is great. Enjoy very much trying to find out what sells, then actually make it in my own factories, get it back to hisec, and sell it for a profit. Also, now making some t2 components for t2 manufacturing.

Missions are so .... boring.

In no way is a game like Eve most fun accumulating isk, at least for me. What is most fun is playing with all the possibilities in the game and seeing what I can do with them.

PI is another game by itself, and CCP is to be congratulated for always looking for some new game play for its players.

Alain Kinsella
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.10 09:22:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Alain Kinsella on 10/07/2010 09:22:19
Originally by: Droxlyn

It didn't help to see 3 days of stuff turn into a half-day's worth of stuff in 24 hours.



This is the main problem for the higher-end producers (usually P3-4). There's still a bug someplace that makes the source *and* end products disappear at times. With P4 production this can be very costly; Anyone heard from Letrange lately?

As for myself, I did well for awhile but my wrist is starting to hurt again. So probably will place it on hold for awhile (and I'm thinking of re-locating that setup too). My mission guy will be out of Cruiser L5 in a week, so that opens up new avenues to play with anyway. ugh

Thorian Crystal
Amarr
Posted - 2010.07.10 11:27:00 - [15]
 

I am somewhat new to Eve. I like PI, but I am quite minimal with it yet. I have put up small bases in High-Sec and produce P1 materials from P0. I sell P1, and get some money, but that is not much compared to what I have done in missions and such. Not encouraging when I see P1 prices go down.

Sure I can click extractors each day few times, but I am not thinking to invest more money into PI until I get something out of it too. That way it starts to get a bit boring as I see PI only for a few clicks's time each day.

I could invest more and train for bigger bases and such, but I am busy doing other things...

Malachi256
Posted - 2010.07.10 21:57:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: cyndrogen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_game_difficulty_balancing

To me Pi breaks the immersive game experience because you notice
the click sink, I have run 100's of missions and mined for hours
at a time and while I clicked a lot I never noticed it as
much as when I started to make Pi materials.

Pi is new and I understand that it takes time to improve
a game mechanic but as of now, Pi is a failure as a game because
it takes you out of the game experience.


Fully agree. PI maintenance is a gaming abomination.

Chara Vega
Posted - 2010.07.11 00:24:00 - [17]
 

Always route products/materials into your spaceport, then into whatever factories you want to consume them. Nothing is ever wasted and you don't have to worry about timing.

Geez.

Ari Chu
Posted - 2010.07.11 00:35:00 - [18]
 

Just quit if you don't like it.

Johnny Santos
Beginning of the End
Posted - 2010.07.11 07:01:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Chara Vega
Always route products/materials into your spaceport, then into whatever factories you want to consume them. Nothing is ever wasted and you don't have to worry about timing.

Geez.


QFT. I run: Extractor > Storage > Fact > Spaceport .... min. clicking... thats for p1 stuff

SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar
Aperture Science inc.
Posted - 2010.07.11 10:57:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Malachi256
Originally by: cyndrogen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_game_difficulty_balancing

To me Pi breaks the immersive game experience because you notice
the click sink, I have run 100's of missions and mined for hours
at a time and while I clicked a lot I never noticed it as
much as when I started to make Pi materials.

Pi is new and I understand that it takes time to improve
a game mechanic but as of now, Pi is a failure as a game because
it takes you out of the game experience.


Fully agree. PI maintenance is a gaming abomination.



Uh oh, I haven't actually done ANY PI AT ALL so I don't really know about all the clicks and time required to run PI but
calling it a 'click sink' is rather strange seeing as the entire EVE Online GUI is focused around mouse clicks (asides from the occasional F1-F8 shortcuts).

Droxlyn
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.11 14:25:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: SFX Bladerunner

Uh oh, I haven't actually done ANY PI AT ALL so I don't really know about all the clicks and time required to run PI but
calling it a 'click sink' is rather strange seeing as the entire EVE Online GUI is focused around mouse clicks (asides from the occasional F1-F8 shortcuts).


I've give you some context:
I have 22 colonies with extractors on them for a total of 283 extractors. Each extractor requires 2 double clicks with a game-enforced delay between each pair of double clicking. Due to this delay and just human speed, it takes about 10 minutes to do a planet. As half of my colonies are on one account and the other half on another, I can interlace the clicking/delay combos to do two colonies at the same time for a minor additional amount of time. It takes me about 30 to 40 minutes to start off one extraction run on all of them.

I do route extractor to space port to basic production facility back to the space port. This does nothing to alliterate the clicking I suffer. I only have to export each 8 or 9 days but usually did each 4 days. My planets use 2 space ports to provide me with this much time. There are no challenges, no real decisions, just doing. It is both boring and tedious. It is worse than if they were to removed the skill queue because if you want to run the faster speeds a lot, you have to return when the game dictates, not when you'd like to.

My 4 factory facilities are much less click intensive as all I have to do is export the finished products(p3s, p4s) and import raw materials (p1s or p3s). The storage space on these planets (the three main ones) gives me enough to run for 3 days before running out. However, due to bugs in PI, this is not guaranteed. (My secondary facility runs for 36 hours before drying up.)

Extractors should run constantly on the 23 hour extraction rate, and to claim your extracts, you would need to do some puzzle game. You can do a few of these games ahead of time and be able to recover a day or so's results if you play a game a little late.

5-hour and half-hour runs can behave as they do now.

96-hour should be eliminated.

Drox

Badmin
Posted - 2010.07.12 00:19:00 - [22]
 

Yea, it was a novelty and yes, i'm tired of it.

I havent dealt with them in over a month. I'm sure there are many like me that find that there are other, more intereseting, wings in eve to explore.

Starla Beach
Posted - 2010.07.12 03:42:00 - [23]
 

I too have quit PI till CCP fixes, yes fixes the tedious click fest. I do believe PI products will rise in price but dont expect PI products to go at a premium. This is pos fuel and pos structures and unless CCP is planning to get rid of pos warfare by introducing a nauseating PI click fest production chain so people dont want to make stuff, and poses become too expensive to produce, goodbye pos warfare plan.

Not likely, but who knows. I think we can expect a change in PI in the future. Ive been playing Eve for too long to not know when people whine CCP gives in.

Ace Echo
Gallente
The Shadow Raiders
Posted - 2010.07.12 06:25:00 - [24]
 

I just make sure I ship down materials in even quantities to my POS. that fixes the problem and I make 15mil a day off of my 4 POS making advanced products.

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
Posted - 2010.07.12 09:58:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Jint Hikaru on 12/07/2010 09:58:50
Edit: scrubbed my post after re-reading the person I quoted.

Nothing to see here, please return to your extractors!

Aphrodite Skripalle
Galactic Defence Consortium
Posted - 2010.07.12 15:44:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Aphrodite Skripalle on 12/07/2010 15:46:06
Originally by: Droxlyn

I've give you some context:
I have 22 colonies with extractors on them for a total of 283 extractors. Each extractor requires 2 double clicks with a game-enforced delay between each pair of double clicking. Due to this delay and just human speed, it takes about 10 minutes to do a planet. As half of my colonies are on one account and the other half on another, I can interlace the clicking/delay combos to do two colonies at the same time for a minor additional amount of time. It takes me about 30 to 40 minutes to start off one extraction run on all of them.

I do route extractor to space port to basic production facility back to the space port. This does nothing to alliterate the clicking I suffer. I only have to export each 8 or 9 days but usually did each 4 days. My planets use 2 space ports to provide me with this much time. There are no challenges, no real decisions, just doing. It is both boring and tedious. It is worse than if they were to removed the skill queue because if you want to run the faster speeds a lot, you have to return when the game dictates, not when you'd like to.

My 4 factory facilities are much less click intensive as all I have to do is export the finished products(p3s, p4s) and import raw materials (p1s or p3s). The storage space on these planets (the three main ones) gives me enough to run for 3 days before running out. However, due to bugs in PI, this is not guaranteed. (My secondary facility runs for 36 hours before drying up.)

Extractors should run constantly on the 23 hour extraction rate, and to claim your extracts, you would need to do some puzzle game. You can do a few of these games ahead of time and be able to recover a day or so's results if you play a game a little late.

5-hour and half-hour runs can behave as they do now.

96-hour should be eliminated.

Drox


THIS !

Just i have 5 accounts with 3 toons doing PI. Thats 15x6 chains.
This clickfest is making me mad.
But still i need the PI stuff to make pos, hangars, silos, moonminers etc. and all the pos fuel.

But i really hate it now. Such stupidity once all chains are running. I feel like a bot doing that and once they will be a macro for this i will use it for sure... I really hope ccp will make this better, at least let the extractors run automatically and forget about the timeline, just let them fill the store up.
At the very least group the same extractors so i only need one click for them.
Grouping ist used for weapons also, so why not for extractors ?

Lemming King
Posted - 2010.07.12 17:17:00 - [27]
 

Entirely too much mindless clicking for extractors IMO. As others have said, there is no thinking required once you have them set up, just repetitive, mind numbing clicking. I think grouping like type extractors is a great idea. If CCP feels the need to keep the time sink fine, but make it less clicks and give me something fun to do while I wait. Maybe a minigame that will affect the yield I get. I would also be fine with 24 hour extracting rate just running continuous or a one click restart and letting the shorter cycles continues as is.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.07.12 17:23:00 - [28]
 

I needed a couple items to add to my POS. Prices were getting really high for thise particular arrays... like 80 million.

So, I decided to build them myself. A bit over a week's work, and I had one and most of the parts for a second. 3 days later, I now have the second.

And while I was doing this almost 2 weeks work, the price of the array dropped from 80 million to under 60 million. The price of the P4s has dropped from 1.5 million average to sub-1 million average. Checking the price charts, I see no bottoming of the P4s starting to take shape.

In other words, lots of people better start rage quitting PI or you'll be able to buy all the parts for a POS for a few million ISK instead of the billion+ it used to cost pre-PI.


LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.07.12 17:46:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: LHA Tarawa on 12/07/2010 17:52:26
Originally by: Lemming King
Entirely too much mindless clicking for extractors IMO. As others have said, there is no thinking required once you have them set up, just repetitive, mind numbing clicking.


There is just as much mindless clicking in mining, manufacturing, invention, buying raw goods, selling completed goods...

Scan, target rock, start laser..

Once you have your spreadsheets set up, it is just a matter of mindless clicking in market, updating prices, then kicking off build orders.

Once you have your stuff made and for sale, wallet, orders, right-click, view market, right click, modify, type in new price, submit, repeat....

Keeping the hanger stocked with raw materials? Wallet, orders, right click, view market, rightclick, modify order...

Industrial, in general, is a time sucking click fest.


Profit per hour requires a time value. The shorter the time value, the lower the total profit.

In short, if the profit per hour of PI is lower than other click-fest industrial activities, do more of those other activities and fewer PI extractions.

Chigger Troutslayer
Internet Spaceship Gamers
RED Citizens
Posted - 2010.07.12 18:49:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Chigger Troutslayer on 12/07/2010 18:50:00
Edited because I didn't post with the same toon... refering to Lemming King

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Edited by: LHA Tarawa on 12/07/2010 17:52:26
Originally by: Lemming King
Entirely too much mindless clicking for extractors IMO. As others have said, there is no thinking required once you have them set up, just repetitive, mind numbing clicking.


There is just as much mindless clicking in mining, manufacturing, invention, buying raw goods, selling completed goods...

Scan, target rock, start laser..

Once you have your spreadsheets set up, it is just a matter of mindless clicking in market, updating prices, then kicking off build orders.

Once you have your stuff made and for sale, wallet, orders, right-click, view market, right click, modify, type in new price, submit, repeat....

Keeping the hanger stocked with raw materials? Wallet, orders, right click, view market, rightclick, modify order...

Industrial, in general, is a time sucking click fest.


Profit per hour requires a time value. The shorter the time value, the lower the total profit.

In short, if the profit per hour of PI is lower than other click-fest industrial activities, do more of those other activities and fewer PI extractions.


I would argue that there is more thought required between clicks for those other activities, an hence more "fun" since this is a game after all.

If you are mining, you are A) try to maximize yield/efficiency. B) semi-afk and couldn't care less / occupied with something else fun C) Stoned out of your gourd watching your lazors pew pew the rocks.

If you are manufacturing you are thinking about material supply and getting the logistics and costing worked out (and I admit starting multiple manufacturing jobs is boring to but I can fill up all my build slots in a few minutes of clicking rather than 20 minutes of clicking, so no as bad).

If you are playing the market you are A) getting paid enough off your profits to justify click-fest that .01 isk wars are, or B) have a good enough item / profit that you are not constantly updating order and not feeling overly clicked out.

My main point was that as is now the extractor part of PI is not fun. There is no thought required other that which cycle time to choose. Those other activities either take some thought to do well or can be done more casually and be less of a grind. There is no other way to get P0's from planets other than click, click click. Sure I can only start them every 4 days if I choose for crappy yield , but what kind of choice is that?


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