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Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.15 01:27:00 - [661]
 

Originally by: Dramaticus
just wanna repeat that this dumb broad being removed from the CSM is pretty much the highlight of the CSM
What an enlightened point of view. Such an unexpected and completely surprising perspective from one of the swarm and so well expressed too. I would have expected you to find something one of the swarms delegates had done to be the highlight. Apparently you share my impression that the swarm didn’t do squat save attempt to serve themselves. Not that I didn’t have respect for Bane during the first CSM.

I’m so happy to see you’re trying to expand your mind. I usually think of you fellows as blindly parroting whatever pureed bull plop your leadership is feeding you. So nice to see at least one of the little bees striking out on his own. The brave imagery fair brings a tear to the eye. It truly does. Lone little bee, buzzing along, thinking independently……

Say……..how’s Darius doing these days? Well, I hope.

Very best regards,
Windjammer

Troeg Artheon
Gallente
Starfire Oasis
Infinite Conflux
Posted - 2011.01.15 06:43:00 - [662]
 

Edited by: Troeg Artheon on 15/01/2011 07:02:57
Originally by: Windjammer
Originally by: Troeg Artheon
Originally by: Windjammer

Also, how do you explain the number of votes she received to become a member of the CSM? And not just once. It would seem there are quite a few people who disagree with your point of view.



Ironically, you just lent support to my assertion that you were wrong to say “everyone knows she has none of the former” (referring to common sense). Unless you’re saying all those people supported her and voted for her while thinking she had no common sense.


My common sense tells me that during meetings I should not use utensils as projectiles. Anybody's common sense should tell them not to do that. That's just one example, I won't list any more as there are plenty of examples on these forums of her lack of common sense.


By your reasoning, anyone who has suffered a fit of anger is lacking in common sense. That would include a lot of people. Almost certainly every person in the world including all the leaders. Some of whom have made very public spectacles of their anger including the use of thrown objects. They suffered a lapse in judgment, but it cannot be reasonably argued that they were all without any common sense. Of course, I exempt you from the above due to the shiny little halo you’ve got going there.

As for the rest of your “plenty of examples”? I would hazard a guess that it is sufficient for a point of view to be different from your own for you to judge it based upon a lack of common sense.

-Windjammer


I never said those people who supported her didn't have common sense, they were just lacking in knowledge of her platform and of her past comments/behavior on the forums. Her behavior in all of those mediums show a lack of an internal switch that tells her to shut the hell up when it's not in her best interest.

As an elected member of the CSM she had certain responsibilities, those included representing the best interests of her constituents (i.e those who elected her.) Her inability to control her emotions was indicative of an underlying issue that has been highlighted multiple times in these forums as well as on numerous other sites such as Eve Tribune. She never had the constitution to represent those she claimed she was representing, she only wanted things her way. Like a spoiled child she lashed out when she didn't get what she wanted... that's not how a representative of a majority should behave.

Edit:
Even more so her is the fact that she was kicked off the CSM. We are judged by our actions, and her actions show that she was not capable of representing those who voted for her (unless those who voted for her expected her to get kicked off the CSM.) She failed all those Eve citizens who voted for her, however she stayed true to those who spoke against her.

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.16 23:05:00 - [663]
 

Originally by: Troeg Artheon
I never said those people who supported her didn't have common sense, they were just lacking in knowledge of her platform and of her past comments/behavior on the forums.
True, you didn’t say that…..and I didn’t say that you did. Reread my post, #660 of this thread. What you DID insinuate was that Ankh lacked common sense because she threw a spoon and that anyone doing such a thing was clearly lacking in common sense. I term this a lapse in judgment and losing one’s temper rather than an absence of common sense. By extension your reasoning places anyone who has lost their temper into the category of people who lack common sense. I really shouldn’t have to recap this to correct you. It wasn’t more than a couple posts back.

Originally by: Troeg Artheon
Her behavior in all of those mediums show a lack of an internal switch that tells her to shut the hell up when it's not in her best interest.
Most people would not say they elect someone to “shut the hell up” when the going gets rough and it would be in the politicians best interest to back off. Constituencies elect a politician based upon the politician’s stance. Once in office the politician is expected to advocate for the positions (planks) that the people elected them to advocate for. What the constituency does not expect or want is for the politician to “shut the hell up”.

Originally by: Troeg Artheon
As an elected member of the CSM she had certain responsibilities, those included representing the best interests of her constituents (i.e those who elected her.) Her inability to control her emotions was indicative of an underlying issue that has been highlighted multiple times in these forums as well as on numerous other sites such as Eve Tribune. She never had the constitution to represent those she claimed she was representing, she only wanted things her way. Like a spoiled child she lashed out when she didn't get what she wanted... that's not how a representative of a majority should behave.
I see a lot from you that runs to “everyone knows”, “numerous sites” and “highlighted multiple times”. You sound like someone who has jumped on a bandwagon without actually seeing any proof. I saw considerably more proof of immaturity from a couple other members of the CSM than I did from Ankh. Heck, I see it in the US congress every freaking day. This is not to say that Ankh wasn’t an effective CSM representative any more than it says the others aren’t good representatives.

Let’s investigate this alleged spoon throwing incident. How do you know it took place? Where did it take place? In a break room between meetings? At lunch? During a meeting with CCP or just the CSM? Did she throw it at someone or simply throw it down on the table in disgust. What was the spoon made of? Metal? Plastic? When this incident was first reported on the forums I looked for information on it and found little. Since I didn’t care to spend too much time looking around for information on it, perhaps I missed something. At the time it seemed like a bs rumor. Wouldn’t it be funny if it were just a rumor that more and more people started believing until it became one of those things that “everyone knows”?

Originally by: Troeg Artheon
Edit:
Even more so her is the fact that she was kicked off the CSM. We are judged by our actions, and her actions show that she was not capable of representing those who voted for her (unless those who voted for her expected her to get kicked off the CSM.) She failed all those Eve citizens who voted for her, however she stayed true to those who spoke against her.
The only people who know why Ankh was kicked off the CSM are Ankh and select members of the CCP staff. The other members of the CSM don’t know. I venture to say that most of the CCP staff do not know. Interesting fact; even if they did know, they couldn’t tell what they know without violating NDA’s unless release was granted by someone at CCP with the authority to do so.

CCP has said they will not comment. Ankh has said she contests CCP’s allegation as to breach of the NDA. CSM members have said they don’t know. I’ve pointed out, as have a few others, that technically there are a number of CSM members who could be accurately accused of breach of the NDA. Yet in spite of all this complete lack of information (outside of Ankh and CCP) you, out of all the people in the world, profess have sufficient information on the matter to render a judgment. You know that she violated the NDA. If I wasn’t so busy being underwhelmed, I might find time to be impressed.

You say we are judged by our actions. Ankh did not kick herself off the CSM, CCP did that. You assume CCP was just in their action. You assume that Ankh did something to violate the NDA that others, who have not been kicked from the CSM, did not do. It seems you assume a great deal and know very little.

-Windjammer

Troeg Artheon
Gallente
Starfire Oasis
Infinite Conflux
Posted - 2011.01.17 15:05:00 - [664]
 

Originally by: Windjammer

Originally by: Troeg Artheon
Her behavior in all of those mediums show a lack of an internal switch that tells her to shut the hell up when it's not in her best interest.


Most people would not say they elect someone to “shut the hell up” when the going gets rough and it would be in the politicians best interest to back off. Constituencies elect a politician based upon the politician’s stance. Once in office the politician is expected to advocate for the positions (planks) that the people elected them to advocate for. What the constituency does not expect or want is for the politician to “shut the hell up”.


There are plenty of people I know that don't know when the hell to shut up. There's NO way I would want them representing me EVEN IF I agreed with them on what they were saying. Ever heard of the saying "Discretion is the better part of valor"?

Originally by: Windjammer

Originally by: Troeg Artheon
As an elected member of the CSM she had certain responsibilities, those included representing the best interests of her constituents (i.e those who elected her.) Like a spoiled child she lashed out when she didn't get what she wanted... that's not how a representative of a majority should behave.


I see a lot from you that runs to “everyone knows”, “numerous sites” and “highlighted multiple times”.


I'm not about to start doing research for you to prove my point. A quick Google search will bring up plenty of instances of her rediculous behavior. If you don't want to do that research that's your perogative, honestly I don't care what your opinion is either way.

Originally by: Windjammer

Let’s investigate this alleged spoon throwing incident. How do you know it took place? Where did it take place? In a break room between meetings? At lunch? During a meeting with CCP or just the CSM? What was the spoon made of? Metal? Plastic? When this incident was first reported on the forums I looked for information on it and found little. Since I didn’t care to spend too much time looking around for information on it, perhaps I missed something. At the time it seemed like a bs rumor. Wouldn’t it be funny if it were just a rumor that more and more people started believing until it became one of those things that “everyone knows”?


Read this: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1342770

Originally by: Windjammer

Originally by: Troeg Artheon

Even more so here is the fact that she was kicked off the CSM. We are judged by our actions, and her actions show that she was not capable of representing those who voted for her (unless those who voted for her expected her to get kicked off the CSM.)


Yet in spite of all this complete lack of information (outside of Ankh and CCP) you, out of all the people in the world, profess have sufficient information on the matter to render a judgment. You know that she violated the NDA. If I wasn’t so busy being underwhelmed, I might find time to be impressed.


I never said I had any information showing why she was kicked off the CSM. What I DID SAY is that she was kicked off and therefore incapable of representing those who voted for her. If she did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to get herself kicked off the CSM and it was a big conspiracy by CCP to remove her because they didn't like her or whatever then she was wronged (which I seriously doubt.) Otherwise some action she performed precipitated CCP making the decision to remove her from the CSM. I am making an assumption here, that being CCP isn't stupid enough to remove her without sufficient reason.

Originally by: Windjammer

It seems you assume a great deal and know very little.


That's a pretty big assumption there.

Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.17 19:53:00 - [665]
 

Originally by: Windjammer
Originally by: Dramaticus
just wanna repeat that this dumb broad being removed from the CSM is pretty much the highlight of the CSM


:words:




im sorry that your pubbie queen was little more than some vapid populist donkey

ps i guess darius is enjoying his new job?

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.17 21:26:00 - [666]
 

Originally by: Troeg Artheon
Originally by: Windjammer

Originally by: Troeg Artheon
Her behavior in all of those mediums show a lack of an internal switch that tells her to shut the hell up when it's not in her best interest.


Most people would not say they elect someone to “shut the hell up” when the going gets rough and it would be in the politicians best interest to back off. Constituencies elect a politician based upon the politician’s stance. Once in office the politician is expected to advocate for the positions (planks) that the people elected them to advocate for. What the constituency does not expect or want is for the politician to “shut the hell up”.


There are plenty of people I know that don't know when the hell to shut up. There's NO way I would want them representing me EVEN IF I agreed with them on what they were saying. Ever heard of the saying "Discretion is the better part of valor"?
This is nonresponsive. You say you know people who you would not want to represent you. That wasn’t the issue. The issue/question is, do you want your representative to stop advocating for you when the going gets a bit tough? If everyone on the CSM who should “shut the hell up” did so, it would be really quiet. Ever hear of filibusters, “picking your battles”, “rage, rage against the dying of the light”, etc., etc., etc.? Politicians do not serve their constituency by “shutting the hell up” when their opposition wishes them to do so.

Or how about this observation? Six months after the start of this thread you still feel the need to take a snide little pot shot at someone who isn’t around to defend themselves. To what purpose? Would this, perhaps, have been an excellent opportunity for you to practice what you preach? i.e. “shutting the hell up”?

Originally by: Troeg Artheon
…….honestly I don't care what your opinion is either way.
How about the opinion of people who agree with you? How about the opinion of anyone else who disagrees with your position?

Originally by: Troeg Artheon
Originally by: Windjammer
Originally by: Troeg Artheon
Even more so here is the fact that she was kicked off the CSM. We are judged by our actions, and her actions show that she was not capable of representing those who voted for her (unless those who voted for her expected her to get kicked off the CSM.)


Yet in spite of all this complete lack of information (outside of Ankh and CCP) you, out of all the people in the world, profess to have sufficient information on the matter to render a judgment. You know that she violated the NDA. If I wasn’t so busy being underwhelmed, I might find time to be impressed.

I never said I had any information showing why she was kicked off the CSM. What I DID SAY is that she was kicked off and therefore incapable of representing those who voted for her. If she did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to get herself kicked off the CSM and it was a big conspiracy by CCP to remove her because they didn't like her or whatever then she was wronged (which I seriously doubt.) Otherwise some action she performed precipitated CCP making the decision to remove her from the CSM. I am making an assumption here, that being CCP isn't stupid enough to remove her without sufficient reason.
No, you didn’t say it, you insinuated it by your conclusion and your assumptions. You conclude she was justifiably removed from the CSM for doing something that the others have not done. You base your conclusion, not upon knowledge, but upon assumption. You assume CCP removed her because she was doing something in violation of the NDA that other members of the CSM were not. You assume CCP would have to be stupid to do something like this. The fact of the matter is, CCP can at any time they wish remove any member of the CSM they wish and cite violation of the NDA. They can do this without fear of reprisal because they can be technically correct under the law even if nothing of substance is leaked.

Originally by: Troeg Artheon
Originally by: Windjammer

It seems you assume a great deal and know very little.


That's a pretty big assumption there.
Not at all. It’s an observation of your conclusions and what they’re based upon. You’d be dissected in a court of law. It’s only the court of public opinion that allows you any dignity at all.

-Windjammer

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.17 21:35:00 - [667]
 

Originally by: Troeg Artheon
Originally by: Windjammer
Let’s investigate this alleged spoon throwing incident. How do you know it took place? Where did it take place? In a break room between meetings? At lunch? During a meeting with CCP or just the CSM? What was the spoon made of? Metal? Plastic? When this incident was first reported on the forums I looked for information on it and found little. Since I didn’t care to spend too much time looking around for information on it, perhaps I missed something. At the time it seemed like a bs rumor. Wouldn’t it be funny if it were just a rumor that more and more people started believing until it became one of those things that “everyone knows”?


Read this: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1342770
Very HappyOhhh, yes please. By all means let’s read this. Excerpts from that thread:

Post 2: From someone who is noted as anti-Ankh
Originally by: Sokratesz
oh also ankh at some point became frustrated and threw a spoon at meissa

Post 12: Referring to Ankh.
Originally by: Sokratesz
Basically, she shut up on most of the topics she knows nothing about, and her fw presentation was pretty decent.

Post 19: From the person the spoon was thrown at. From what I can tell it was done so to interrupt a side conversation that was disruptive to the main conversation of the meeting.
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
I didn’t get a spoon in the face, a spoon was thrown at me across the table as an attention grabber. No kitten were harmed.

Post 22: From a CSM present at the event and who expressed disappointment that Sokratesz, an anti-Ankh person, chose to publish an non-event which would predictably be seized upon and blown out of proportion.
Originally by: Mynxee
”Spoongate” was an inconsequential event with certain inciting circumstances. It was no worse than other mild hi-jinks that went on during the meeting and was such a non-event that I—sitting right next to Meissa—did not even notice that it happened until Meissa brought it to my attention.

And while I disagree with most of Ankh’s view of how EVE should be, she’s clearly passionate about the game and worked collaboratively with other CSM delegates during the Summit. Unfortunately, those who haven’t spent time with her on CSM5 can’t judge that for themselves and therefore rely on highly selective (and often over-stated for effect) comments made by others and the “anti-Ankh” history in these forums to fuel their opinions of her.


There’s more. Merely reading the first page or perhaps even the first two pages of that thread is enough to educate you on the event or as Mynxee phrased it, non-event.

Perhaps now you can see how this sort of thing becomes distorted and blown out of proportion to what actually happened. A friendly clap on the back can become an assault. A nudge to a someone sitting beside you can become an elbow jab to the midsection.

This non-event is a far cry from what you and others came to believe it.

-Windjammer

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.17 21:42:00 - [668]
 

Originally by: Dramaticus
im sorry that your pubbie queen was little more than some vapid populist donkey
Considering the source, this isn’t an insult. However, I’m impressed your trainers were able to teach you the words “vapid” and “populist”. It must have been difficult for you.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.18 05:33:00 - [669]
 

So, Wind, let's keep track.

Your argument is that CCP could have just decided to claim an NDA breach existed where none did, and totally made it up, but they have more lawyers so Ank couldn't have won on the facts and gotten them to eat her legal fees, too. And it was probably totally invalid... except you'd also like to claim that "there are a number of CSM members who could be accurately accused of breach of the NDA", even though you don't even know what's in the NDA. But Ank wasn't one of those who could accurately be accused.

And people are unfairly trying to demonize her for merely losing her temper, not that instead of acting like a normal person who loses their temper and fumes a bit or maybe says something rude, she responded like a toddler throwing a temper tantrum, and hurled cutlery at someone. Which you deny, or at least refuse to learn anything about while suggesting that it's a conspiracy and bit of rumor mongering against Ank. And now you're dishonestly claiming that it was "distorted" and "blown out of proportion". Reminds me of a certain "anti-Pirate", rabidly Ank-booster who actually claimed that the facts about Ank's spoon chucking didn't exist and the story itself was a lie since Ank 'only' threw a spoon at someone but it hit the table instead of that person.

(Not that your "metal or plastic, punk?!?" trolling wasn't funny)

And, naturally, the char you're posting with has been in an NPC corp for the last 3 years, solid, with apparently no actual PvE or PvP experience. So post with your main, unless you burned it during the whole Ank campaign in the first place.



Ildryn
Posted - 2011.01.18 18:42:00 - [670]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
So, Wind, let's keep track.

Your argument is that CCP could have just decided to claim an NDA breach existed where none did, and totally made it up, but they have more lawyers so Ank couldn't have won on the facts and gotten them to eat her legal fees, too. And it was probably totally invalid... except you'd also like to claim that "there are a number of CSM members who could be accurately accused of breach of the NDA", even though you don't even know what's in the NDA. But Ank wasn't one of those who could accurately be accused.

And people are unfairly trying to demonize her for merely losing her temper, not that instead of acting like a normal person who loses their temper and fumes a bit or maybe says something rude, she responded like a toddler throwing a temper tantrum, and hurled cutlery at someone. Which you deny, or at least refuse to learn anything about while suggesting that it's a conspiracy and bit of rumor mongering against Ank. And now you're dishonestly claiming that it was "distorted" and "blown out of proportion". Reminds me of a certain "anti-Pirate", rabidly Ank-booster who actually claimed that the facts about Ank's spoon chucking didn't exist and the story itself was a lie since Ank 'only' threw a spoon at someone but it hit the table instead of that person.

(Not that your "metal or plastic, punk?!?" trolling wasn't funny)

And, naturally, the char you're posting with has been in an NPC corp for the last 3 years, solid, with apparently no actual PvE or PvP experience. So post with your main, unless you burned it during the whole Ank campaign in the first place.





Exactly.

Wind go the **** away. Ank is gone. Thank everything. And she no longer needs a bunch of sycophantic followers who can't prove a thing about her innocence. According to CCP she breached the NDA. That is all that we all need know. She is an unstable at best player whom used the pve community to get elected. PVP is what this game is built around.

TL;DR
**** Ank and **** you.

Delilah Wild
Posted - 2011.01.18 19:31:00 - [671]
 

Reading Finn accuse someone else of acting like a toddler is amusing.

No one knows what happened between Ank and CCP. Was an NDA broken or was there a difference of interpretation? On what terms did CCP and Ank finally part? Will one or the other eventually pursue legal remedies?

One day we may have more information to answer this question. Currently we do not. As a private legal matter, that is as it should be.

Windjammer does have the right of it, however, when noting the usual suspects sought to demonize Ank. It is the reason I and others entered this argument in the first place. Whether or not one agrees with or likes Ank, the personal attacks on her were (and are) over the top. Finn's posts exemplify this.

Windjammer has done a nice job of assembling several quotes from the record. My personal favourite, however, is by Mynxee (CSM chair). Hardly a supporter or confidant of Ank, she called the antics around spoongate 'a witch hunt pandering to rabid trolls under the guise of sharing information'. This was part of her self-described rage post which she subsequently modified.

What interests me more than this stale conversation about Ank's past, is what will happen in the future.

Ank may have a defamation case against the usual suspects. They often state that harm done her reputation in game will diminish her employability as a game designer, and they continue to smear her by her real name, long after she is gone from Eve. Claims that Ank is mentally ill are a case in point.

All this says far more about Finn and friend's maturity and integrity, than it does about Ank. It may also end up landing them in hot water. The fact that they are hiding behind internet characters does not absolve them of responsibility.

It will be interesting to see if anything more comes of this.

cheers, Delilah

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.18 20:36:00 - [672]
 

Ah, we have another obvious Ank troll. And if your trolling is as predictable and obvious as always, we know who the alt's main is, too. Speaking of how you troll pretty much without exception when defending a disgraced insane person like Ank, you are actually now reduced to talking about me in the third person and playing a game of "Lalalala I can't hear you!" while you troll and allege that other people are acting like toddlers. A lie/troll you used in the first place because you continually troll for Ank an you can't decide to lie and claim that the factsaren't true, or to simply play dumb and pretend that adults throw silverware at eachother when they are annoyed.

No, your alt does not "have the right" of anything. As I pointed out, all of it's/your arguments are dishonest and/or trolling. Just like you troll and claim that my posts, which are 100% factual are "over the top", just like you and other trolls for Ank claimed and evidently still claim that reality and facts themselves are out to get Ank and "demonize" her.
Yes, reality has a well known anti-lunatic bias, sad but true.

And yes, someone unable to tell the difference between fantasy and reality, who thinks that people who play pirates in a game are really sociopaths in real life? Yep, that person is mentally ill.

Speaking of the intersection of dishonesty, trolling and a completely unhinged view of reality, I eagerly await the lawsuit you keep gleefully threatening. Silly troll.

(oh, and speaking of how you lie and troll constantly, gotten any kills within the las two years to back up your claim if how very much you love to PvP? No?)

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.18 22:16:00 - [673]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
So, Wind, let's keep track.

Your argument is that CCP could have just decided to claim an NDA breach existed where none did, and totally made it up, but they have more lawyers so Ank couldn't have won on the facts and gotten them to eat her legal fees, too. And it was probably totally invalid... except you'd also like to claim that "there are a number of CSM members who could be accurately accused of breach of the NDA", even though you don't even know what's in the NDA. But Ank wasn't one of those who could accurately be accused.
Does your corp and alliance know you’re posting this idiocy with their name for all to see? Surely they’d be embarrassed by it. Reread my post. You’ve either misread or are intentionally misconstruing what I actually said.

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
And people are unfairly trying to demonize her for merely losing her temper, not that instead of acting like a normal person who loses their temper and fumes a bit or maybe says something rude, she responded like a toddler throwing a temper tantrum, and hurled cutlery at someone. Which you deny, or at least refuse to learn anything about while suggesting that it's a conspiracy and bit of rumor mongering against Ank. And now you're dishonestly claiming that it was "distorted" and "blown out of proportion". Reminds me of a certain "anti-Pirate", rabidly Ank-booster who actually claimed that the facts about Ank's spoon chucking didn't exist and the story itself was a lie since Ank 'only' threw a spoon at someone but it hit the table instead of that person.
Reread the quotes in post 667 from members of the CSM that were there during the “non-event”. They’re clear on what happened and the atmosphere of the situation. They’re not my conclusions or observations. Perhaps you’d like to tell those members of the CSM that you think they’re being dishonest?

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
And, naturally, the char you're posting with has been in an NPC corp for the last 3 years, solid, with apparently no actual PvE or PvP experience. So post with your main, unless you burned it during the whole Ank campaign in the first place.
Yes, the Windjammer character is around 3 years old. My mains are a lot older. You might wish to use an alt to post with yourself. That way you wouldn’t have to risk having your corp come here and disavow knowledge of your activity. It’s one thing to have a position. It’s quite another to display your ignorance, prejudice and inability to reason while showing your corp colors and thus reducing the corp you belong to in the eyes of the world.

-Windjammer

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.18 22:21:00 - [674]
 

Originally by: Ildryn
Exactly.

Wind go the **** away. Ank is gone. Thank everything. And she no longer needs a bunch of sycophantic followers who can't prove a thing about her innocence. According to CCP she breached the NDA. That is all that we all need know. She is an unstable at best player whom used the pve community to get elected. PVP is what this game is built around.

TL;DR
**** Ank and **** you.
Thank you for your unbiased, balanced and well thought out words. You’re obviously well in touch with your inner child and tough guy wannabe. You’ve even learned how to use the f word. Good for you.Smile

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.18 22:45:00 - [675]
 

Edited by: FinnAgain Zero on 18/01/2011 22:47:51
Yah, similar writing style, similar trolling style, similar patterns of blatant dishonesty. If you're not Daliah you're a clone.

Now, of course you're lying about the content of your argument, but you'd have to, since you were trolling. If you admitted that I'm right, you'd have to admit you were trolling. So instead you plug your fingers in your ears and try a good ol' Argument From Nunh Unhh!
Tell you what, troll, name one single bit of your arument as I just described it, that you claim is in the least bit inaccurate, and I'll quote exactly where you said it. At which point you might admit you are trolling, or use the typical Ank Commando Gambit of claiming that reality itself is out to get you.

Speaking of how reality is cruelly persecuting Ank and her minions, the CSM members who correctly described Ank's cutlery-flinging temper tantrum were being accurate and I've never said otherwise, troll. You, hoever, are dishonestly describing the events to spin them as much as humanly possible. Because you, just like all the other alt trolls for Ank (truly sad considering that she is not only a disgraced crazy person, but a disgraced crazy person who no longer has anything to do with EVE), have reality itself as your enemy. Just like you want to describe an adult hurling silverware during a business meeting as a "non event".

The facts show that Ank was a child with poor impulse control, given to temper tantrums and throwing things? Well, erm... everybody gets frustrated sometimes. The facts show that Ank was mentally ill and did not understand the division between reality and fiction? Reality is a smear that's out to get Ank, ayieeeee! Even the fact that the Ank Bots are obviously mostly alt trolls? Well, that is to say, hrmmmm... lowell u r posting wit ur main, Lowell!

Post with your main, troll. And try being honest.

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.18 23:24:00 - [676]
 

Edited by: Windjammer on 18/01/2011 23:27:07
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Now, of course you're lying about the content of your argument, but you'd have to, since you were trolling. If you admitted that I'm right, you'd have to admit you were trolling. So instead you plug your fingers in your ears and try a good ol' Argument From Nunh Unhh!
Tell you what, troll, name one single bit of your arument as I just described it, that you claim is in the least bit inaccurate, and I'll quote exactly where you said it. At which point you might admit you are trolling, or use the typical Ank Commando Gambit of claiming that reality itself is out to get you.
There is no need for me to indicate an element of my argument. All those “bits” of my argument have already been written in this thread. All a reader has to do is read them, compare them with what you’ve said and see for themselves how silly you are. Did you imagine you were so clever as to be able to change what I said? Your absurdity is apparent to even a child. How is it that you don’t see that?

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Speaking of how reality is cruelly persecuting Ank and her minions, the CSM members who correctly described Ank's cutlery-flinging temper tantrum were being accurate and I've never said otherwise, troll. You, hoever, are dishonestly describing the events to spin them as much as humanly possible. Because you, just like all the other alt trolls for Ank (truly sad considering that she is not only a disgraced crazy person, but a disgraced crazy person who no longer has anything to do with EVE), have reality itself as your enemy. Just like you want to describe an adult hurling silverware during a business meeting as a "non event".
Please. Call me troll one more time. I’m sure you’ll finally manage to irritate me.Laughing

Again, the CSM members themselves who were there describe the “non-event” (Mynxee’s phrasing in excerpt 22 in post 667 of this thread), describe it in detail, describe the feelings surrounding the situation and the atmosphere at the time. I did not “spin” anything. It’s not my description, it’s theirs. Sorry you can’t work the observations of the participants into your version of reality.

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
The facts show that Ank was a child with poor impulse control, given to temper tantrums and throwing things? Well, erm... everybody gets frustrated sometimes. The facts show that Ank was mentally ill and did not understand the division between reality and fiction? Reality is a smear that's out to get Ank, ayieeeee! Even the fact that the Ank Bots are obviously mostly alt trolls? Well, that is to say, hrmmmm... lowell u r posting wit ur main, Lowell!

Post with your main, troll. And try being honest.
Is there someone I can contact for you? A care giver or doctor? You seem to be off your medications………..or in need of some.

-Windjammer

Delilah Wild
Posted - 2011.01.18 23:50:00 - [677]
 

Sorry, Finn, but it is me, Delilah. I don't know Windjammer, and I don't believe he's Ank. Not her writing voice. I know he's not me.

If Windjammer and my writing voice sound similar to you, its because you are hearing two reasonable people coming to similar conclusions about your screeds.

Windjammer, thank you for taking the time to put together detailed interpretations with extracts. I've tended to make broader points and then reference the threads. Your fine grained analysis is just what is needed.

Cheers, Delilah

Mina Banestar
Posted - 2011.01.19 02:17:00 - [678]
 

At this point is any of this really important, she's been gone for over 6 months and nothing is bringing her back. Can't we please just let this bull**** die already?

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.19 06:10:00 - [679]
 

Originally by: Delilah Wild
Sorry, Finn, but it is me, Delilah. I don't know Windjammer


Ah yes, who would ever doubt your honesty?
Speaking of you constantly lying and trolling, I guess you just forgot to provide proof of all those kills you've gotten, as you so very love to PvP.

Also speaking of your trolling, your pattern is to simply claim that the facts are a "smear" or a "screed" or what have you, without ever actually rebutting them. Because, like the rest of Ank's Troll Brigade, facts are your enemy. Just like you're pretending that your alt account's arguments, which are exactly the same as yours except they include one snipped quote, are totally different. Not that congratulating your troll alt on using the same trolling but claiming that the same exact trolling is now "fine grained".

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Now, of course you're lying about the content of your argument, but you'd have to, since you were trolling. If you admitted that I'm right, you'd have to admit you were trolling. So instead you plug your fingers in your ears and try a good ol' Argument From Nunh Unhh!

Tell you what, troll, name one single bit of your argument as I just described it, that you claim is in the least bit inaccurate, and I'll quote exactly where you said it. At which point you might admit you are trolling, or use the typical Ank Commando Gambit of claiming that reality itself is out to get you.


Yep, as predicted you can't do it because you were trolling. And, naturally, everybody knows that the reality of what you actually said is out to get you and actually quoting what you said would show that it's cruelly falsifying your denial.

As for your trolling about the CSM, only one member described it as an "non-issue", and did so in a rage post that they then retracted. Naturally you're dishonestly describing that, too. And, naturally, you're trolling on the general point as one member's personal opinion of something does not mean that an adult throwing things at a business meeting is a "non-issue". And to point out how you're trolling, you started by claiming or feigning ignorance and still tried to deny what had happened from a position of admitted absolute ignorance. And then when you "learned" about the situation, lo and behold, it just happened to reinforce the view you held when you claimed to not know what had even happened (what luck!). And of course you are dishonestly describing it and spinning it, because like all of Ank's Troll Brigade, facts eviscerate your nonsense. Much like the Delilah account's trolling, you need to claim that the actual, verifiable facts are "overblown", as if "Nuhn uhnn!" was a rebuttal of facts.

And again, this is hilarious. You're actually trolling on behalf of a disgraced, crazy woman who's been totally removed from the game for half a year now. At least troll about someone relevant.


Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.19 07:56:00 - [680]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
More gibberish from the guy who can’t accept reality.
The quote I used from Mynxee in which Mynxee described spoongate as a non-event was taken from a post Mynxee made after Mynxee’s self described rage post. Again, for the casual reader and those impaired as Zero is, the url is http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1342770 and Mynxee’s post was number 22 in that thread. Mynxee did also use the term non-event in Mynxee’s rage post which I chose not to quote from, but can be seen in post 36 of that thread as well as post 22 of the thread found at http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1342770.

Both threads provide true insight into the incident which can be seen by reading the first page or two of either thread. In the later thread you’ll also see Zero arguing with one of the CSM who were present at spoongate. Apparently Zero is incapable of believing anything other than his own delusions even when he gets it straight from the horse’s mouth.

Also, once again, I refer the reader to post 667 in this thread where I am confident anyone of modest intelligence or better will be able to see the sentiments of some of the people involved in “spoongate”.

-Windjammer

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.19 08:22:00 - [681]
 

Edited by: Windjammer on 20/01/2011 02:23:19
Originally by: Delilah Wild
Sorry, Finn, but it is me, Delilah. I don't know Windjammer, and I don't believe he's Ank. Not her writing voice. I know he's not me.

If Windjammer and my writing voice sound similar to you, its because you are hearing two reasonable people coming to similar conclusions about your screeds.
Personally, I don’t mind him trying to convince others we’re the same person. Posts to that end and just about every other post he’s made only serve to show people how foolish he is and the desperation with which he grasps at the merest wisp of a straw. Not to mention how he has to build the molehill first in order to make a mountain out of it.

Originally by: Delilah Wild
Windjammer, thank you for taking the time to put together detailed interpretations with extracts. I've tended to make broader points and then reference the threads. Your fine grained analysis is just what is needed.

Cheers, Delilah
My pleasure and you’re entirely welcome.

Best regards,
Windjammer

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.19 09:40:00 - [682]
 

Edited by: FinnAgain Zero on 19/01/2011 09:42:27
Post with your main.
Quote:
The quote I used from Mynxee


Was her opinion, designed to try to tamp down controversy that she thought would reflect on the entire CSM. But most of us realize that grown adults throwing things when they have a temper tantrum is not normal, and not other people's fault.

Quote:

In the later thread you’ll also see Zero arguing with one of the CSM who were present at spoongate.


Nope. You made that up.
I did not dispute anybody's version of events. I did not dispute anything "straight from the horse's mouth", that a lie. What actually happened was disagreement about the political consequences, which were personal opinions and predictions, which is not the same as disagreeing with the facts as reported by those who were there (the actual "from the horse's mouth" facts).

Realty has a well known anti-troll, anti-Ank bias. It's a smearscreed!

Just to prove my point about how, yes, your argument is trolling, let's look at your earlier bit:

Originally by: denial
You’ve either misread or are intentionally misconstruing what I actually said.


Originally by: The facts
Your argument is that CCP could have just decided to claim an NDA breach existed where none did, and totally made it up
.

Originally by: The proof

The suit doesn’t have to have merit and can be based upon the smallest of perceived violations.


Originally by: The facts

And it was probably totally invalid... except you'd also like to claim that "there are a number of CSM members who could be accurately accused of breach of the NDA", even though you don't even know what's in the NDA.

Originally by: The proof
Quote:
Quote:
CCP would have opened themselves up to a substantial lawsuit if they'd fabricated an NDA charge against Ank. The fact that she said she'd be able to show how it was fabricated "tomorrow", and said that months and months ago, points to CCP not only not fabricating it, but Ank not being able to argue it.

Not necessarily true.
[...]
a plausible scenario in which Ankh may well have been told she’d be putting herself at considerable risk by pursuing a verbal and/or legal campaign against CCP with little chance of success. CCP wouldn’t even have to threaten her.
[...]
I’ve pointed out, as have a few others, that technically there are a number of CSM members who could be accurately accused of breach of the NDA.



Originally by: The facts
And people are unfairly trying to demonize her for merely losing her temper, not that instead of acting like a normal person who loses their temper and fumes a bit or maybe says something rude, she responded like a toddler throwing a temper tantrum, and hurled cutlery at someone. Which you deny, or at least refuse to learn anything about while suggesting that it's a conspiracy and bit of rumor mongering


Originally by: The proof

I term this a lapse in judgment and losing one’s temper rather than an absence of common sense.
[...]
Let’s investigate this alleged spoon throwing incident. How do you know it took place? Where did it take place? In a break room between meetings? At lunch? During a meeting with CCP or just the CSM? Did she throw it at someone or simply throw it down on the table in disgust. What was the spoon made of? Metal? Plastic? When this incident was first reported on the forums I looked for information on it and found little.
[...]
At the time it seemed like a bs rumor. Wouldn’t it be funny if it were just a rumor that more and more people started believing


QED.

Yep... How can we say, as a relative certainty, that Ank violated the NDA? That's horrible! Of course, you can say that a number of the CSM delegates can be accurately accused of violating the NDA. We just can't say that about Ank. Because, well...

Hey, look over there!

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.01.19 11:21:00 - [683]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
As for your trolling about the CSM, only one member described it as an "non-issue", and did so in a rage post that they then retracted.


I was there in the room. I was sitting next to Eva when the spoon was launched. And more importantly, I know what triggered it and who it was actually aimed at. The actual facts reflect better on Eva that most people might expect.

In the larger context of the meeting, spoongate was (as Mynxee pithily put it), a non-event.

WRT the NDA-violation, I can have no opinion on that, since I do not know the facts. However, I spent a fair amount of time with Eva in Iceland during that trip, and found her to be quite different from her Internet persona. I quite liked her.

Ildryn
Posted - 2011.01.19 15:32:00 - [684]
 

Originally by: Windjammer
Originally by: Ildryn
Exactly.

Wind go the **** away. Ank is gone. Thank everything. And she no longer needs a bunch of sycophantic followers who can't prove a thing about her innocence. According to CCP she breached the NDA. That is all that we all need know. She is an unstable at best player whom used the pve community to get elected. PVP is what this game is built around.

TL;DR
**** Ank and **** you.
Thank you for your unbiased, balanced and well thought out words. You’re obviously well in touch with your inner child and tough guy wannabe. You’ve even learned how to use the f word. Good for you.Smile



No problem. It's all based in fact. She was trying to ruin PVP in high sec. She was voted in by the PVE community. And by people like you. People who want to see Eve as a friendly place.

Inappropriate text removed as per the forum rules. StevieSG.


FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.19 16:10:00 - [685]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

I was there in the room. I was sitting next to Eva when the spoon was launched. And more importantly, I know what triggered it and who it was actually aimed at. The actual facts reflect better on Eva that most people might expect.


Interesting. Can you elaborate? The story at the time, IIRC, was that some rudeness/side conversation was going on and Ank was annoyed so she threw something to get attention. Is that not accurate?

In any case, even if in the context of the meeting itself it was a non-event to some people, obviously not to others, but the semantic value (if you will) of cutlery isn't an objective matter. Who did what, why, who it was aimed at, etc... is all factual and well and good, but whether or not something was important enough to be considered or not, isn't. People throwing things out of frustration (or, really, almost any reason) is going to be seen as significant by quite a few, whether or not it was thrown with malice or out of pique. Especially if it's part of a pattern, like Ank's reaction at the first several meetings of the year w hen people disagreed with her or weren't voting her way.

In a nutshell though, the facts are all well and good, but the interpretation is another matter entirely.

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
However, I spent a fair amount of time with Eva in Iceland during that trip, and found her to be quite different from her Internet persona. I quite liked her.


That's too bad, and it raises the question of why, exactlyshe created her internet persona. If she really believed that people who play bad-guys in an internet spaceship game are real life sociopaths, then that is pretty much a delusional disorder. If she didn't believe in real life that people who played the game differently than her were sociopaths, why the **** were there quite so many times and quite so many quotes which were variations on that theme?

If her internet persona was just a ploy to win votes, or appeal to the PvE crowd... that's kind of disturbing.

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.20 02:47:00 - [686]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero

Originally by: Windjammer

In the later thread you’ll also see Zero arguing with one of the CSM who were present at spoongate.


Nope. You made that up.
I did not dispute anybody's version of events. I did not dispute anything "straight from the horse's mouth", that a lie.
Nope, I didn’t make it up. You argued with a CSM delegate in the initial “spoongate” thread and one does not have to go far to see you arguing with yet another CSM delegate, Trebor Daehdoow, who was also present at the non-event. Take a look at you arguing with Trebor in post 685 of this thread in reference to his post 683 of this thread. You still refuse to accept the incident as perceived by the people who experienced it. You continue to insist upon your fantasy version.

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
More rant from the guy who knows better than the people who were at the spoongate non-event. More attempts to twist perception of the facts into feeding his fantasy.
Do try harder, Zero. Your current attempts are doing too much to make you look the fool and leaving me with little more to do than smile and wave you on to your perpetual train crash.Smile

-Windjammer

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.20 03:22:00 - [687]
 

Originally by: Ildryn
She was trying to ruin PVP in high sec. She was voted in by the PVE community. And by people like you. People who want to see Eve as a friendly place.
Oh not this nonsense again. First of all, it should be apparent to you that I’m not a particularly friendly or even nice person. Second, Ankh’s support base was not exclusively the PvE community although some of the PvE community did support her. For instance Ankh was a noted advocate and participant in Factional Warfare (FW). In point of fact, she was the one who gave the FW presentation to CCP and was considered to have done a nice job even by people who didn’t particularly like her. Factional Warfare was intended to be “PvP Light” and a way to get more people involved with PvP and hopefully go in for the harder core types of PvP once they saw their hair wasn’t going to fall out from engaging in PvP. So in a very real sense Ankh supported PvP.

Far from wanting to eliminate anything, she was an advocate for balanced play. In other words, she didn’t want to see either PvP, PvE or Bear activity eliminated in any sec of the game. She strove to make these things balanced and fair to each of the concerned parties. That she advocated some things the pure pew pew PvP community disliked is undeniable, but that does not indicate she wished to eliminate PvP anywhere in the game.

What really lit her fuse, though, was CCP’s determination to devote resources to developing new content at the expense of fixing existing content. Since this is a universal complaint amongst the EVE community she can hardly be faulted for it and should be thanked for it by all EVE participants regardless of their particular choice of activity.

“People who want to see EVE as a friendly place”. Ok, color me confused and in need of clarification by what you mean. In my experience there are very few people in EVE who want EVE to be a friendly place and those people are demonstrably out of touch with the situation around themselves. Re-educated they make fine additions to EVE………or they are persuaded to leave EVE.

Originally by: Ildryn
Tough guy wannabe huh. If you wish to meet me i would be more than happy to help arrange a meeting if you were interested. Then you could determine for yourself if i am just a wannabe or not.
I’m not sure if you want to blow my imaginary video game spaceship up or if you’re threatening real life physical contest. Either way, I’m half puzzled and half amused. Okay, I’m more amused than puzzled, but it’s a close contest………well……..not that close, but in the same neighborhood.

-Windjammer

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.20 09:19:00 - [688]
 

Originally by: Windjammer
again.


Again? Almost as if you participated in the campaign... go figure.
Post with your main.

Originally by: Windjammer

So in a very real sense Ankh supported PvP.

Originally by: Ank
If there are people that need to be treated, it are those griefers, that should be locked away and rehabilitated into friendly productive members of society, instead of running around griefing people left and right because it makes their twisted minds feel aroused.

Originally by: Ank
I just feel disappointed that the killer is capable of doing such a thing. I'll never understand that. Surely people have some kind of concience, and some empathy and compassion towards other people? Maybe they just forget that there's a real person behind those ships. Maybe they don't care. Maybe they're ruthless psychopatich sadists

Quote:
People that use a game to get their enjoyment by frustrating other people definately are antisocial psychopatic virgins.


Hrm... do we believe you when you tell us what Ank really thought about PvP, or Ank when she told us what she really thought about PvP?
Hard to make that call.

Originally by: Windjammer

She strove to make these things balanced and fair to each of the concerned parties.


Ank Campaign Talking Point #7.
Post with your main.

Originally by: Windjammer
does not indicate she wished to eliminate PvP anywhere in the game.

Originally by: Ank
The only whiners are you criminals, who stubbornly refuse to accept the fact that law enforcement isn't *****ing down hard enough on you, and that it is a logical, realistic and proportional response when Concord and the insurance companies take drastic steps to stop you parasiting scum.


Again, who to believe? Your claims about what Ank thought, or Ank's claims about what Ank thought.
Truly, it is hard to choose.



Delilah Wild
Posted - 2011.01.20 11:13:00 - [689]
 

Windjammer's description of Ank's position is right on the money, and the best yet written on this subject. If some of her statements were clumsy or overheated at times (who amongst us cannot say the same), her policy focus in Eve was balance and finishing content.

Now contrast that with Ildryn's moral panic over the 'end of pvp'. Ank's desire to fix the bounty system, or set up a workable player police system, or end insurance payments for suicide gankers are cases in point. One can legitimately argue the merits of implementing any of these, but to bring them up is hardly the same thing as advocating the end of pvp.

As for Ildryn's obvious threat toward Windjammer, I do not find it amusing, as it is personally directed. I do not care what one's position on Eve policy may be, this goes over the line. So assuming it to be genuine, I've reported the threat to CCP, and strongly suggested that disciplinary action be taken. Whether CCP will or not, I cannot say. Even so the incident is now formally on record.

Cheers, Delilah

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.01.20 12:52:00 - [690]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

I was there in the room. I was sitting next to Eva when the spoon was launched. And more importantly, I know what triggered it and who it was actually aimed at. The actual facts reflect better on Eva that most people might expect.


Interesting. Can you elaborate? The story at the time, IIRC, was that some rudeness/side conversation was going on and Ank was annoyed so she threw something to get attention. Is that not accurate?


The above account is inaccurate in a subtle, but very crucial way. I am hampered in replying because to give the details might cause pain to an innocent third party, but I will say this: just before Eva threw the spoon, I threw a :rolleyes: "WTF?" across the room.


Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
However, I spent a fair amount of time with Eva in Iceland during that trip, and found her to be quite different from her Internet persona. I quite liked her.


If her internet persona was just a ploy to win votes, or appeal to the PvE crowd... that's kind of disturbing.


Some 35 years of experience online have taught me that one should never judge a person's RL persona by their forum persona, especially if that forum persona is extreme. And if, for example, her forum persona was a conscious attempt to scam votes, all I can say is - This is EVE, not Hello Kitty Online.

However, it is more likely that she simply had a tendency to over-react to what she perceived as personal attacks. In this I can sympathize, as I suffered from the same tendency when I was her age.

In any case, I've said my piece on the subject.


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