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Timathai
Populist Manufacturing and Exploration
Posted - 2010.08.03 04:03:00 - [571]
 

@ Finnagain Zero-
Lets be clear here. You're the altar boy, and I'm the priest when it comes to creating a viable arguement. You have a well developed style that takes comments and ideas out of their full context, and focuses on a single interprtation of the actual words used, forcing anyone who wishes to argue with you to speak in an overly technical manner, rather than being adult, and conversational in tone. If you can call that a style.

To point; there are issues with CCP and their conduct with the playerbase, and this is a direct result of their involvement in the game on a personal level. If I really felt the need to add fuel to the fire, I could track down the many sites that have posted examples of this, with screenshots of conversations with the dev teams, leaked internal communications, and the entire rig-a-marole. I'd rather see that CCP has a loyal fan base, and try and offer suggestions that support the company, and the player base. They produce an excellent product, but have some issues with keeping themselves from ego stroking.

I also notice that the subjects you lost interest in discussing were rebuttals to your half hearted attempts at playing devils advocate for the sake of being contrary. If you want to play internet guru, dont leave your arguements as soon as you lose ground in them, man up, admit you were wrong. Pick a side, stick to it, and dont force an issue in to quibbling over minutia.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.03 04:16:00 - [572]
 

Edited by: FinnAgain Zero on 03/08/2010 04:21:11
Originally by: Timathai

You're the altar boy, and I'm the priest


Kinky. But no.
Don't strain yourself patting yourself on the back though.

Originally by: Timathai

You have a well developed style that takes comments and ideas out of their full context


I quote the ideas I'm responding to. You just respond to the individual ideas that you want to respond to. I just use the specific text I'm talking about in order to do it.

Originally by: Timathai

To point; there are issues with CCP and their conduct with the playerbase, and this is a direct result of their involvement in the game on a personal level.


No, there aren't. There was a seven year old overt act that CCP has since changed policy on and a scandal with a single dev who gave BPO's to BoB and lost his job because of it. Even if there was a spate of corruption (which there isn't), it doesn't change the fact that you actually want devs to be banned from playing the game. It is impossible to get a visceral sense for the dynamic and balance of the game without being able to actually experience it. If more devs had actually had to sit there and try to drop a TCU, may be we'd have gotten a better sov system.

Originally by: Timathai

I also notice that the subjects you lost interest in discussing were rebuttals to your half hearted attempts at playing devils advocate for the sake of being contrary.


Nope. You didn't rebut anything and your mindreading act fails. I haven't played devil's advocate, I have pointed out where you're wrong.

In point of fact, I stopped discussing your "players provide [something]" because it's a silly proposal and I had no interest in chewing it over. You quibbled over the issue of what "balance" was as differing from "appeasement", while drawing no actual distinction between the two. Players who complain form the data set that CCP would use to "compile statistics". That is, if CCP listened to player complains, they would indeed end up appeasing the people whose complaints made up the statistics. That's part of why direct democracy is mob rule.

Your comment about CCP devs misses the fact that the lack of trust for CCP is a fairly silly policy and IA already exists to police improper dev actions.

Timathai
Populist Manufacturing and Exploration
Posted - 2010.08.03 06:44:00 - [573]
 

@ Finnagain Zero-
I've gone over this blog and seen the manner in which you respond to posts. You take the ideas that are presented, and hone in on a specific set of word usages in order to either force yet another, overly technical explanation on the subject at hand, or, add emotional overtones to your statements meant to incite a negative response in the poster you reply to. Your response to my post was civil, and I'll even give you points on the fact you didnt erupt in to some of the "finer" examples of your biting manner shown in prior posts over my blatant smash at the begining of the post.

As for your claim that you "post the ideas" you are responding to, maybe there is a language difference, but many of the ideas are broader than the few words or sentences you choose to pluck from the post. And, coincidentaly, the words and ideas you use as support often represent only a portion of the idea that you are bashing. many times, I see that you brush over a supporting statement, using rhetoric to cloud the issue in your favor rather than addressing the facts. Which again means that people posting with you in debate of subjects cannot be congenial, or conversational. This is about a game, not a discussion of a higher order.Hell I'm getting carpal tunnel just typing this response.

As for my proposed idea of player feedback on "balance" issues, I need to develop the mechanism and a set of descriptive terms before I can adequately defend it as a viable and needed aspect of the game. I can see your point( as obtuse as you are in forcing someone to lay down every damned detail) in it not being clearly defined between a legitamate balance issue and just another place for players to whine about what they want. We can leave that arguement for another day.

But, again, this forum was about the issue with Ankh. I will be honest, I dont know the person, I found the spam irritating, and the videos and blog trite and without real purpose. As for the NDA issue, I will say that CCP is savvy enough that they wouldnt make that sort of claim if it wasnt something they could back up in court.Not in a technical, interpretive sense, but in a "there is no doubt that there was a breach of confidence " I'm also not saying that they didnt set up a situation where this could occur, they've had a while to get to know Ankh, both in person and in game. It would be quite easy to lead someone by the nose, so to speak. Is it legal? yes. Is it ethical, maybe. If it had not been for previous in-descretions, and a large ban on speaking about those in almost any public forum that you could name,I dont think the player base would have their panties in such a bunch.

And speaking of those issues, I have seen more than whats been named here, but as I said in my first post, I will not go in to them, as they were dealt with. And CCP currently has done one of two things, both of which are the right one in a business sense. They've made sure to cover it up very well, or eliminate it totally from their staff base. Time will tell if there is another issue that comes to light in a similar theme from the past. I for one hope it never does. This is a great game, with a ton of talent that has gone in the making of it. I expect them to be above that petty crap.

Hairy Bum
Posted - 2010.08.03 07:07:00 - [574]
 

@Timathai - hate to tell you this but you are arguing with a fanboi, and a rather irrational one at that (not that by definition there are rational ones, but you get my meaning hopefully). When confronted by these, there is not really much you can do or say to make them understand any other PoV except their own. No amount of posting/quoting/re-posting/truth waving, etc will ever get you anywhere. Face it, like I and many others have figured, he is a lost cause.

Irrespective of what you say or do, no matter how well thought out the rational of your stance - like a petulant child he will react in the only way that he knows how - random bluster, occasional threats, incessant foot stamping and the final act of fingers in the ears to the tune of "la la la, you are wrong".

All you can really do is make fun of him expending so much time, effort and energy over what is .... at the end of the day - a game Laughing

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.03 07:35:00 - [575]
 

Originally by: Timathai

As for your claim that you "post the ideas" you are responding to, maybe there is a language difference, but many of the ideas are broader than the few words or sentences you choose to pluck from the post.


Like I said you (and everybody else) does the same exact thing. I pointed out, for instance, that you and I both respond to the ideas we want to respond to and ignore the rest that we don't want to respond to. In your response... you just mentioned that I post the text of and respond to the issues I want to discuss and didn't discuss the rest. Which is perfectly fair. Selecting which points you want to respond to is part and parcel of a discussion that doesn't take forever.

Originally by: Timathai

As for my proposed idea of player feedback on "balance" issues, I need to develop the mechanism and a set of descriptive terms before I can adequately defend it as a viable and needed aspect of the game.


The suggestion that you made is nonviable as you presented it. I doubt it can be refined to the point of viability, and even if it can somehow, what you suggested is, by your own reckoning, not viable. Pointing out that it was not a good suggestion because it was not viable is not beyond the pale. Nor is it "obtuse" to point out the fact that you just agreed to: your idea is nonviable in its current state.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.03 08:18:00 - [576]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Those who voted for her were not only wrong, they hilariously made sure that instead of a "hardcore carebear" that they wanted to elect, the person who actually fills that seat now is from Pandemic Legion.



Given that - by their own admission, Ankh only got as many votes as she did because PvPers wanted to troll other PvPer - one could say that her consituency is still fairly well represented.

PS if anyone knows what Ankh actually did, please evemail me.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.03 10:32:00 - [577]
 

I'd wager that the PvPers voting for Ank to grief other PvPers were a fairly small number of voters, but that's just a guess. Point still stands that those 'bears who did vote for her got royally karmad*



*a process, I would note, that seems to have driven some of them utterly 'round the bend.

Habaticus
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.03 11:53:00 - [578]
 

Finny me lad, you must change your name to "The Myoptic One."

Oh yes, the small forum segment (compared to total players) of our Sandbox must:

SUPPORT CSM5

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.03 15:03:00 - [579]
 

Myopia has an actual definition, you know. "It sounds cool, and I think it means something bad!" is not a great reason to use a word you don't know.
If you're going to use non sequitors, at least go for the gusto. "You quisling anklebiting debutante!" or something.

In any case, not sure what your other non sequitor about supporting the CSM has to do with anything that's been said recently, but of course EVE's playerbase should support the CSM. Whether they voted for them or not, the CSM are the one and only group of people who have the direct attention of CCP devs as part of the official development cycle and the one and only group of people who can give a unified representation of the playerbase's needs and desires wrt the development of the game to those devs.

Glad we had this talk.

Kangtar
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.03 15:13:00 - [580]
 

Is this entire thread fanbois *****ing that someone who broke the law got booted?

She dropped off the face of the planet the day she got caught, doesn't take a genius to figure out why.

Timathai
Populist Manufacturing and Exploration
Posted - 2010.08.03 17:58:00 - [581]
 

As long as this thread has continued, I think we have hashed out all that can be with our current information at hand. The person in question is silent, CCP isnt adding anything to the conversation, and we all have on our tinfoil hats and have taken off our glasses at this point. (Nearsighted people have difficulty reading highway signs and seeing other objects at a distance, but can see for up-close tasks such as reading or sewing. I got the Myopia reference, and it's no surprise that Finnagain did'nt)

I've said that CCP's past unprofessional actions have had an effect on this issue, and let my self get in to a long winded discussion defending this. It doesnt make it any less true. For those in defense of CCP, your hearts in the right place, and I hope they have changed their stance on how they deal with the playerbase.

For those in defense of Ankh, if you think that a company would make an accusation of that type, involving an actual, real life, contractual agreement, without a solid, bulletproof reason, your tinfoil hat is blocking out the sun.

Regardless of what the circumstances were that lead up to the breach of the NDA, or when it occurred, it did happen. As a professional, and someone in the industry, Ankh should have known better.

Please close this thread, it's wasting our time, and CCP's at this point


FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.03 18:32:00 - [582]
 

Originally by: Timathai
I got the Myopia reference



That would require it to be an actual reference and not a content-free insult. In other words, an actual accusation and not "Lol, I don't like you, now I'm going to use a word that I think means something bad!"
It's about as solid of a reference as the rhetoric about PvP 'extremists' or 'fanatics'.

Ah well.

Hairy Bum
Posted - 2010.08.03 22:25:00 - [583]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Whether they voted for them or not, the CSM are the one and only group of people who have the direct attention of CCP devs as part of the official development cycle and the one and only group of people who can give a unified representation of the playerbase's needs and desires wrt the development of the game to those devs.



Quoting this for sheer comedic value.

CSM has nothing to do with the player base. CSM has nothing to do with providing a unifying representation of anyone beyond themselves and their own petty wants. It's funny how 88% of player sees it as an irrelevancy, how CCP themselves see it as an irrelevancy, but fanbois like you cling to it like you cling to your wooby blanket.

Now that one of the loafers has been turfed, we just have to wait for the rest of the useless oxygen thieves to fall after her. Laughing

Oh and no, no alt supporter for poor sad Eva Rolling Eyes, just a concerned player.

Trolling removed. Zymurgist

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.04 08:36:00 - [584]
 

Originally by: Hairy Bum
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Whether they voted for them or not, the CSM are the one and only group of people who have the direct attention of CCP devs as part of the official development cycle and the one and only group of people who can give a unified representation of the playerbase's needs and desires wrt the development of the game to those devs.



Quoting this for sheer comedic value.

CSM has nothing to do with the player base. CSM has nothing to do with providing a unifying representation of anyone beyond themselves and their own petty wants...


So you keep saying. Can you cite some examples, or is this just PRC doing a rather feeble "everyone knows..." attempt to discredit them?

Specifically: which of the proposals voted in by this CSM are solely to do with their "petty wants"?

Rokkit Kween
Posted - 2010.08.04 13:58:00 - [585]
 

Everything in EVE is PVP.

Industry = PvP
Trading = PvP
Combat = PvP
Forums = (more often than not) PvP

It is the core driving force of the economy. Comparisons with other MMO's don't cut it, because there is nothing like EVE. No other MMO has an economy which models the real world so accurately. It is driven by conflict, at a variety of levels. Playing word games will not change this fact, no amount of claiming that industry and mining are not about competing for limited resources is merely denying reality.

The whole reason EVE is EVE is because of the competition (and yes, co-operation) that occurs between players, any attempt to remove that at any level will remove the thing that makes EVE what it is. If you don't want to play EVE, the solution is simple; don't play EVE. Don't argue for its destruction from within.

EVE is PvP, It is not necessarily combat however.

Hairy Bum
Posted - 2010.08.04 23:04:00 - [586]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Hairy Bum
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Whether they voted for them or not, the CSM are the one and only group of people who have the direct attention of CCP devs as part of the official development cycle and the one and only group of people who can give a unified representation of the playerbase's needs and desires wrt the development of the game to those devs.



Quoting this for sheer comedic value.

CSM has nothing to do with the player base. CSM has nothing to do with providing a unifying representation of anyone beyond themselves and their own petty wants...


So you keep saying. Can you cite some examples, or is this just PRC doing a rather feeble "everyone knows..." attempt to discredit them?

Specifically: which of the proposals voted in by this CSM are solely to do with their "petty wants"?


Didn't realise that the Peoples Republic of China had any interest in Eve - you learn something new everyday Very Happy.

But to the general crux of you post. Pretty much every one of them in this players humble opinion falls into the category of "petty wants". I know that in the 5 or so years I have played this game, I have never experienced any of the issues that keep getting dragged out as reasons behind what is being put forward as "issues" (lag aside). And I'm obviously not alone in this view.

Go through the Assembly Hall and all of the issues are lucky to get more than a smattering of people agreeing or even discussing it. Seriously - look at any issue and out of the 350,000 odd current account holders of the game, the "highest" level of concern elicits maybe 300 posts?? So if these are such "big" issues, why is it that only a very, very small - but apparently very very whiny - minority even bother to discuss it.

And if you want more proof - Trebor posts a request for people to go through the current outstanding list of CSM concerns - and in 3 days has gained only 70 indications of support, and not many more actually bothered to even respond!!

As an aside, the guy is to be admired for persistence, and with Mynxee - they seem to be the only two actually trying to make CSM work. Of this whole debacle, these two are the only rays of sunshine and the only ones truly committed to making this work. They are failing not through any fault of their own, but more pften than not its through the "support" of idiots like that FinnAgain person. Sometimes though you can't choose your friends.

But back on topic. Lag issue aside - as this is the only really serious concern at present - even CCP haven't really been that interested in the "list of complaints". If I was CCP, I would just take every CSM report ever written and just write "HTFU" next to each bullet point.

So why the lack of interest in the 320,000 players who ignore the whole CSM charade? The answer is that these "issues" are all just manufactured by a small group of fanbois keen to push their own agendas to show the world (ie, each other), just how big their epeens are. It is seriously laughable.

You keep asking for some sort of proof to validate claims that I and others make about why this is all just a pathetic waste of time. Well for proof you need look no further than at the current state of the whole CSM process, the current state of CCP promises to "fix" the issues that the CSM keep raising adnauseum and the complete lack of faith in the player base in the current system of "Stellar Management".

Face it, aside from a very few dedicated people, some very deranged and obsessive fanbois, and one or two people at CCP, the CSM could pack up tomorrow and 99% of the player base would be none the wiser as to it's passing.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.04 23:29:00 - [587]
 

Spotted: PRC shill driven utterly insane by the pressure of trying to argue for the game being without flaw and the CSM being horrible, as proven by the fact that CSM wants to fix things and CCP is stonewalling them and nobody else can gather and voice player concerns (which don't exist anyways, because the game is perfect and without flaw).

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.04 23:49:00 - [588]
 

Originally by: Hairy Bum
And if you want more proof - Trebor posts a request for people to go through the current outstanding list of CSM concerns - and in 3 days has gained only 70 indications of support, and not many more actually bothered to even respond!


With all due respect, first of all it isn't a proposal, thus supports are irrelevant. And secondly, in the first 4 pages of the thread, 108 people took the time to go through that 160+ item list and enter their picks.

The people who do take the time to contribute are going to influence CSM's prioritization; the squeaky wheel gets the grease, after all. Which means that if CSM has any effect on CCP dev-time allocations, their pet-peeves will be more likely to get addressed -- and if CSM has no influence, you can bet CSMs like Mynxee and myself will make this abundantly clear. We were elected to be advocates for the players, and we take that very seriously.

If CCP really considers CSM to be a cynical PR exercise, then the current council has clearly demonstrated that it is not cost-effective.

Which is all the more reason for CSM-skeptics to support the efforts of the CSM! Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

Delilah Wild
Posted - 2010.08.05 00:21:00 - [589]
 

Originally by: Rokkit Kween
Everything in EVE is PVP.

Industry = PvP
Trading = PvP
Combat = PvP
Forums = (more often than not) PvP

It is the core driving force of the economy. Comparisons with other MMO's don't cut it, because there is nothing like EVE. No other MMO has an economy which models the real world so accurately. It is driven by conflict, at a variety of levels. Playing word games will not change this fact, no amount of claiming that industry and mining are not about competing for limited resources is merely denying reality.

The whole reason EVE is EVE is because of the competition (and yes, co-operation) that occurs between players, any attempt to remove that at any level will remove the thing that makes EVE what it is. If you don't want to play EVE, the solution is simple; don't play EVE. Don't argue for its destruction from within.

EVE is PvP, It is not necessarily combat however.


Hello Rokkit Kween,

I know we will have to agree to disagree here, but you have written a very clear statement about everything in Eve being pvp. So I think it is useful to tease out some of the implications of what you appear to be saying as a way to identify some of the beliefs of pvp fundamentalism. If you are not a fundamentalist, I apologize and look forward to your clarification.

You begin by using pvp as a metaphor. While pvp usually refers to pvp combat, as opposed to pve combat, you have adopted an expanded meaning that uses pvp to metaphorically describe all game mechanics and social interaction in Eve.

Pvp as a metaphor can be useful. Kresian, for instance, uses it to good effect as a way to discuss the interdependent ecology of Eve's combat, industrial and other features, as well as to emphasize the indispensable role of pvp combat and interpersonal competition. While she and I view Eve from different perspectives, I agree with her on these points.

Yet your use of this metaphor also conflates the meanings of pvp-combat, competition and conflict, as well as understates the importance of cooperation and amity in Eve. I can't think of any good reason to do this. It dumbs down our language for talking about Eve, and thereby creates a less accurate understanding of the complexity and evolution of the Eve universe.

Next you imply that making reasonable distinctions is playing games with words. Well, words are used to make distinctions, and such distinctions are necessary if we are going to accurately describe Eve. I haven't read anyone claiming that Eve is not about pvp combat, competition or conflict. What I have read, and what I believe myself, is that Eve is better understood as a sandbox that incorporates but is not reducible to those features. Honestly, I am not trying to play games here. I'm expressing a different view of what Eve is now, and what it should become in the future.

You move on to intimate that those of us who see Eve as a sandbox with pvp -- a cosmos -- don't want to play Eve, and would destroy it from within. That simply is not the case. Many of us enjoy playing Eve, whether we agree with your overuse of the pvp metaphor or not. Some of us, such as myself, find pvp to be our favourite activity. And since Eve is already a cosmos, your worry about destroying the game from within is overblown. We can develop further elements of this cosmos without sacrificing its pvp combat dimension.

Finally, you note that if we do not agree with your view of the game, we should leave Eve. Please do not make the mistake of assuming that only one view of the game has insight. I've acknowledged the insight that the pvp metaphor can bring to the table, even while pointing out its shortcomings. We'd have a better conversation on this topic if we were all committed to finding the insight in each other's points of view.

Delilah
friendsofeve.wordpress.com

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.05 00:59:00 - [590]
 

Edited by: FinnAgain Zero on 05/08/2010 04:46:55
This is why the word "sophomoric" means "like a wise fool".

Nothing was a 'metaphor', it was a statement of fact.
Industry is PvP, if you don't believe it, try to truck down a freighter full of building materials and jump it gate to gate in a hostile region. Try to build capital ships in a region where the governing powers don't consent to your POS being there. And trade is PvP as well. Try to take the materials you've produced to Jita and see how long you stay at the lowest price without being .01'd. Try manipulating the market and see if someone doesn't crash your profit margin. Take hundreds of millions in losses after you buy up a product and find someone shattering their own profit margin in order to substantially undercut you.

The babble about "cooperation" and "amity" in EVE are somehow different from PvP is just more ignorant nonsense. People working together (to oppose other people working together) hardly invalidates the fact that cooperation is one way to engage in PvP, not somehow different from PvP. If a group of people in Team Fortress II work to take the enemy's intelligence briefcase, it doesn't mean that TF II is no longer a PvP game.

And yes, those of you who join a PvP game and then whine, incessantly, as to why it shouldn't be a PvP game really should go somewhere else. We'd laugh at someone who joined TF II and then complained endlessly about how there was so much shooting going on. Same deal with EVE. Judging by your massive 9 kills (and 31 losses) on Battleclinic you've joined the greatest PvP MMO ever made in order to write sophomore-level word salad about how EVE should be a "cosmos" instead of what it is and what it was designed, specifically and explicitly, to be.

There are any number of "comoses" out there in which you'd be much happier and wouldn't have to advocate for any type of changes. Start with Second Life, it seems to be more your speed.

Hairy Bum
Posted - 2010.08.05 02:26:00 - [591]
 

Who is the PRC by the way? Confused

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.05 21:39:00 - [592]
 

Originally by: Hairy Bum
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Hairy Bum
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Whether they voted for them or not, the CSM are the one and only group of people who have the direct attention of CCP devs as part of the official development cycle and the one and only group of people who can give a unified representation of the playerbase's needs and desires wrt the development of the game to those devs.



Quoting this for sheer comedic value.

CSM has nothing to do with the player base. CSM has nothing to do with providing a unifying representation of anyone beyond themselves and their own petty wants...


So you keep saying. Can you cite some examples, or is this just PRC doing a rather feeble "everyone knows..." attempt to discredit them?

Specifically: which of the proposals voted in by this CSM are solely to do with their "petty wants"?


Didn't realise that the Peoples Republic of China had any interest in Eve - you learn something new everyday Very Happy.

But to the general crux of you post. Pretty much every one of them in this players humble opinion falls into the category of "petty wants". I know that in the 5 or so years I have played this game, I have never experienced any of the issues that keep getting dragged out as reasons behind what is being put forward as "issues" (lag aside). And I'm obviously not alone in this view.

Go through the Assembly Hall and all of the issues are lucky to get more than a smattering of people agreeing or even discussing it. Seriously - look at any issue and out of the 350,000 odd current account holders of the game, the "highest" level of concern elicits maybe 300 posts?? So if these are such "big" issues, why is it that only a very, very small - but apparently very very whiny - minority even bother to discuss it.

And if you want more proof - Trebor posts a request for people to go through the current outstanding list of CSM concerns - and in 3 days has gained only 70 indications of support, and not many more actually bothered to even respond!!

As an aside, the guy is to be admired for persistence, and with Mynxee - they seem to be the only two actually trying to make CSM work. Of this whole debacle, these two are the only rays of sunshine and the only ones truly committed to making this work. They are failing not through any fault of their own, but more pften than not its through the "support" of idiots like that FinnAgain person. Sometimes though you can't choose your friends.

But back on topic. Lag issue aside - as this is the only really serious concern at present - even CCP haven't really been that interested in the "list of complaints". If I was CCP, I would just take every CSM report ever written and just write "HTFU" next to each bullet point.

So why the lack of interest in the 320,000 players who ignore the whole CSM charade? The answer is that these "issues" are all just manufactured by a small group of fanbois keen to push their own agendas to show the world (ie, each other), just how big their epeens are. It is seriously laughable.

You keep asking for some sort of proof to validate claims that I and others make about why this is all just a pathetic waste of time. Well for proof you need look no further than at the current state of the whole CSM process, the current state of CCP promises to "fix" the issues that the CSM keep raising adnauseum and the complete lack of faith in the player base in the current system of "Stellar Management".

Face it, aside from a very few dedicated people, some very deranged and obsessive fanbois, and one or two people at CCP, the CSM could pack up tomorrow and 99% of the player base would be none the wiser as to it's passing.


So in short you cannot provide a single specific example to back up your accusation that the CSM promote their own petty wants? You could have just typed "No" instead of 300 words of flim-flam and fallacy.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.06 12:00:00 - [593]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Shocked

Originally by: Furb Killer
Why would she be banned in game? Larkonis wasnt.


Lark did get banned, it was just a 30-day.


If Ankh got also a 30 day then she's "free" today.

One is tempted to infer from her silence that the punishment was more rigorous...

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.07 03:27:00 - [594]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

So you admit you're just making baseless accusations.


DNFTT

Dariah Stardweller
Gallente
NO U111 Enterprises
Posted - 2010.08.07 11:21:00 - [595]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Shocked

Originally by: Furb Killer
Why would she be banned in game? Larkonis wasnt.


Lark did get banned, it was just a 30-day.


If Ankh got also a 30 day then she's "free" today.

One is tempted to infer from her silence that the punishment was more rigorous...


Or maybe she just thought: feck EVE and quit. It's prolly what I would do if in a similar situation.

Shaemell Buttleson
Posted - 2010.08.07 12:06:00 - [596]
 

Godamnit I want to know!Evil or Very Mad


Timathai
Populist Manufacturing and Exploration
Posted - 2010.08.07 17:47:00 - [597]
 

Originally by: Hairy Bum

CSM has nothing to do with the player base. CSM has nothing to do with providing a unifying representation of anyone beyond themselves and their own petty wants. It's funny how 88% of player sees it as an irrelevancy, how CCP themselves see it as an irrelevancy, but fanbois like you cling to it like you cling to your wooby blanket.

Now that one of the loafers has been turfed, we just have to wait for the rest of the useless oxygen thieves to fall after her. Laughing

Oh and no, no alt supporter for poor sad Eva Rolling Eyes, just a concerned player campaigning against the stupid and the worthless.


OK, this is the wrong aspect to take on the CSM issue. We need an effectual CSM process, not only in terms of the CSM election and vetting process, but in how we approach current player concerns. Many players are very happy with the current state of the game, stemming from the fact that they are limited in their scope of how they play. They do one aspect, and exclude most others to any depth.

This does'nt mean that some of the issues being "whined" about are without merit. I believe that if there was an in-game interface that allowed for an easy evaluation of current balance issues as put forward from the player base, where a player could not only agree, dis-agree or abstain from adding their two pence to the convo,but also puruse the topics at hand, we would see more people taking notice of the CSM process.

As of now, with little transparency in the process, as well as almost no concise gathering of the data on the issues, the player base as a whole isnt going to have a lot of concern with the issues.Rummaging through 100's of posts, with flame wars and trolls mucking up the thread, most people would rather simply work around balance issues, or exploit them, and get on with their game. Only a few people are actually going to take the time to look at deeper issues.

The reason I am so adamant about this particular aspect of the issue is that poor balance in the game results in less actual long term subscriptions to the game. No one wants to play a game that has obvious issues limiting their scope of play. If they are coming to the dark universe that is EvE, with it's many hardships already extant, why would they stay if mechanics issues make that existence in Eve even harder?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.07 22:06:00 - [598]
 

Originally by: Dariah Stardweller
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Shocked

Originally by: Furb Killer
Why would she be banned in game? Larkonis wasnt.


Lark did get banned, it was just a 30-day.


If Ankh got also a 30 day then she's "free" today.

One is tempted to infer from her silence that the punishment was more rigorous...


Or maybe she just thought: feck EVE and quit. It's prolly what I would do if in a similar situation.


Without so much as updating her blog? That seems rather out of character, to put it mildly.

Nylan Faust
Posted - 2010.08.08 11:21:00 - [599]
 

OMG!!! CCP put a hit out on her and she's had to go underground! She's currently co-habitating with militant kangaroos that have set up camp in the hills of Appalachia!!

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.08.09 08:22:00 - [600]
 

Originally by: Nylan Faust
OMG!!! CCP put a hit out on her and she's had to go underground! She's currently co-habitating with militant kangaroos that have set up camp in the hills of Appalachia!!


http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/wat.jpg

Image changed to URL. Zymurgist


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