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FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.30 18:07:00 - [541]
 

Originally by: Leil Ren'Do
you're also so very wrong.



Don't sweat it, it's just sophomoric word-gaming. You'd see the same crap in almost any 2nd year college English class. "Cosmos blah blah emerging possibilities from the interaction of different post-structural narratives blah blah privileged class holding onto hegemonic dominance by self-serving claims of understanding blah blah..."

EVE is, always has been and always will be a PvP game. It's possible to play Team Fortress II with 15 other guys who are all playing medics. It's still a PvP game. It's possible to mine in EVE. EVE is still a PvP game. Some people simply don't understand what EVE is all about. They come to the game after trying WoW, or whatever, and don't understand that while WoW has PvP and PvE servers, EVE is one big PvP server and there are no options for a 100% PvP-free game. They also don't understand that CCP deliberately made EVE so that it's cruel, harsh and dark and advertised piracy as part of the draw of the game. In their new player FAQ CCP states that Darwinian competition is the very essence of the game.

So rather than adapt they whine. Like Deliliah, they pile dishonesty onto their lack of basic comprehension while they suggest that, for instance, nerfing the already disadvantaged lowsec PvPers is really in "everybody's best interest".
They're people who would be much happier on a PvE server or in a single-player game. Instead they join a PvP game and begin whining that people are allowed to PvP with them. A bit like joining a TF II match and complaining that guys keep shooting your medic.

Krecian
Gallente
Essence of Decay
Black Cartel.
Posted - 2010.07.31 17:19:00 - [542]
 

Like it or not, PvP is the lynchpin of EvE. Without it, much of this game would shut down.

The basic mistake that many in the "it's a sandbox first" is making when they make their arguement is that they assume that PvP is all about blowing up spaceships. I don't they they stop and consider that the player-driven mechanics that bring PvP to other areas of the game.

-Ever jump into a belt to mine only to find it's been stripped of every rock? You just got "PvP'd" by your competition.
-Ever find your buy orders massivly undercut? You just got PvP'd by your competition.
-Jump back into your mission to find your salvage gone? You just got PvP'd by a ninja-salvager.

PvP simply means "Player versus Player". While blowing up each other's ships is a part of this, it's not the only PvP aspect of the game. Every part of EvE is affected by this. Even on the basic level - who is going to buy your barges if they aren't blown up? To pretend that PvP is just an "Addon" to the game is to be willfully ignorant of something that should be plain as day.

To adjust this game away from it's current state to something more WoWish would be to strip it's soul and create another NGE situation in the MMO world.

Ori Blake
Posted - 2010.08.01 01:30:00 - [543]
 

Originally by: Krecian
Like it or not, PvP is the lynchpin of EvE. Without it, much of this game would shut down.

The basic mistake that many in the "it's a sandbox first" is making when they make their arguement is that they assume that PvP is all about blowing up spaceships. I don't they they stop and consider that the player-driven mechanics that bring PvP to other areas of the game.

-Ever jump into a belt to mine only to find it's been stripped of every rock? You just got "PvP'd" by your competition.
-Ever find your buy orders massivly undercut? You just got PvP'd by your competition.
-Jump back into your mission to find your salvage gone? You just got PvP'd by a ninja-salvager.

PvP simply means "Player versus Player". While blowing up each other's ships is a part of this, it's not the only PvP aspect of the game. Every part of EvE is affected by this. Even on the basic level - who is going to buy your barges if they aren't blown up? To pretend that PvP is just an "Addon" to the game is to be willfully ignorant of something that should be plain as day.

To adjust this game away from it's current state to something more WoWish would be to strip it's soul and create another NGE situation in the MMO world.


When I played FFXI I had to compete against harvesters for resources too. Did that make FFXI a PvP game? No. When I played it I also had to compete against people undercutting me at market, sometimes by a lot and we'd have price wars. That make it PvP too? I also had to compete directly against others for a split second chance at claiming a rare mob. Is it a PvP game because of that?

What about robbing the guild bank? Other games do that too, are they all PvP ones? EVE players for some odd reason extend PvP status to things which aren't.

As for PvP itself, it shouldn't be taken out or anything, but it's just not fun for a lot of EVE subscribers. It's too heavily based on numbers and size, and a lot of times its avoided either partially through metagaming or completely by running away or staying docked in station. The last two big "events" in game were suiciding mining barges and U'K getting disbanded.

I think stuff like Incarna is designed to retain people who like EVE, but PvP simply isn't enough. It's smart. Look at Aion for example-it's similar to EVE in being a heavily PvP focused game with less PvE and it's struggling.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.08.01 08:54:00 - [544]
 

Originally by: Ori Blake
Originally by: Krecian
Like it or not, PvP is the lynchpin of EvE. Without it, much of this game would shut down.

The basic mistake that many in the "it's a sandbox first" is making when they make their arguement is that they assume that PvP is all about blowing up spaceships. I don't they they stop and consider that the player-driven mechanics that bring PvP to other areas of the game.

-Ever jump into a belt to mine only to find it's been stripped of every rock? You just got "PvP'd" by your competition.
-Ever find your buy orders massivly undercut? You just got PvP'd by your competition.
-Jump back into your mission to find your salvage gone? You just got PvP'd by a ninja-salvager.

PvP simply means "Player versus Player". While blowing up each other's ships is a part of this, it's not the only PvP aspect of the game. Every part of EvE is affected by this. Even on the basic level - who is going to buy your barges if they aren't blown up? To pretend that PvP is just an "Addon" to the game is to be willfully ignorant of something that should be plain as day.

To adjust this game away from it's current state to something more WoWish would be to strip it's soul and create another NGE situation in the MMO world.


When I played FFXI I had to compete against harvesters for resources too. Did that make FFXI a PvP game? No. When I played it I also had to compete against people undercutting me at market, sometimes by a lot and we'd have price wars. That make it PvP too? I also had to compete directly against others for a split second chance at claiming a rare mob. Is it a PvP game because of that?

What about robbing the guild bank? Other games do that too, are they all PvP ones? EVE players for some odd reason extend PvP status to things which aren't.

As for PvP itself, it shouldn't be taken out or anything, but it's just not fun for a lot of EVE subscribers. It's too heavily based on numbers and size, and a lot of times its avoided either partially through metagaming or completely by running away or staying docked in station. The last two big "events" in game were suiciding mining barges and U'K getting disbanded.

I think stuff like Incarna is designed to retain people who like EVE, but PvP simply isn't enough. It's smart. Look at Aion for example-it's similar to EVE in being a heavily PvP focused game with less PvE and it's struggling.


Krecian made this wonderful post explaining the different aspects of 'pvp' in EVE and then you ruin it with a ****fest like that. Way to go.

Delilah Wild
Posted - 2010.08.01 15:28:00 - [545]
 

Ori's post does a great job of exposing the conceptual and pragmatic problems with pvp fundamentalism. Lets look at this misplaced theology a bit more closely.

FinnAgain is right that CCP uses piracy as part of its marketing for Eve. CCP also incorporates Darwinian struggle as a thematic arc.

While the prospect of battles in space draws many of us to Eve, it doesn't follow from this that Eve is a pvp-sandbox, as opposed to a sandbox with pvp. Epic battles and piracy can take place in either kind of online universe.

So while it may be good marketing, FinnAgain is taking these advertisements a tad too literally, while making a basic error of reasoning.

What motivates this error is a dogmatic belief in pvp fundamentalism -- that the essence of Eve is pvp, and the rest of its activities and players exist to service pvp ambitions.

Pvp fundamentalism is often justified by claiming Eve is Darwinian, that is, hyper-competitive. Unfortunately for FinnAgain and friends, this is a misunderstanding of Darwinism. Darwin had a place for both cooperation and competition in his theory, and 'fitness' was never equated with hyper-competitivism. That is Spencerism (and some other evolutionarily inflected political ideologies). So too, he placed great emphasis on the role of moral and social norms on individual and group fitness. Indeed he thought of pro-social behaviour as arising to promote fitness.

This pvp fundamentalism also leads to an over-interpretation of everything in Eve being 'pvp'. Krecian illustrates this with the notion that mining, buy orders and salvaging are pvp by another name. Such overly broad interpretations are the signature mark of fundamentalist ideologies. In point of fact, mining, trading and salvaging are as much characterized by cooperation as they are competition. So too are virtually all aspects of Eve. Corps, alliances, coalitions, trade agreements, fleets, and their like would be impossible without a high degree of cooperation and pro-social norms. This doesn't eliminate competition. Rather cooperation and competition go hand-in-hand.

So from an empirical and descriptive point of view, Eve is still better described as a sandbox with pvp (a.k.a. a cosmos).

Does thinking about Eve as a cosmos ruin the game, end pvp, or make Eve into a single-person RPG? No. Will it end piracy, stop griefing, necessitate arenas? No. Pvp and non-pvp elements can and do exist simultaneously.

The sky is not falling Chicken Little.

Indeed, from the looks of Incarna and Dust, I'd say CCP is trending towards a fully realized cosmos. Perhaps for precisely the reasons Ori points out.

Delilah
friendsofeve.wordpress.com

Lysander Kaldenn
Dead Reckoning.
Posted - 2010.08.01 18:26:00 - [546]
 

Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 01/08/2010 18:27:06
I play Starcraft 2 as the Zerg. I build as many drones as possible and mine as many minerals as I can, sometimes exceeding 12k mins in ONE game!! I don't build the fighting units because I am a moral person first and foremost.

Krecian
Gallente
Essence of Decay
Black Cartel.
Posted - 2010.08.01 18:44:00 - [547]
 

I like to think myself pretty close to the center on this debate, actually. The only thing I could be considered “fundamentalist” about (nice attempt at rhetoric there, using a word that conjures images of religious zealots beating on “heretics”) is the idea that you shouldn’t drastically change the core gameplay of a game after it gets a sizable loyal customer-base. What constitutes a “drastic” change is up for debate.

I’m sorry if people do not like my broader view of Player versus Player. But to me, anytime you compete for limited resources, the game becomes competitive (yes, even in such games as WoW). However, if I came off as saying the cooperative part of the game has no place here, you are mistaken. This is an MMO, none of us here should be playing to be solo. And yes, this means working together on common goals. As it says in one of my channel MOTD’s “PvP is more fun with a friend”. Hell, those who like to shoot other players are just as dependent on the industrialists to provide them ships – like it or not.

But, without PvP, the game’s eco-system will implode on itself. There is just not enough item sinks for this game to work without it. And that’s why I call it the lynchpin of Eve. It’s not because I like to kick sand in people’s eyes, it’s not because I’m anti-social. Indeed, I’m actually adverse to willingly going into PvP on my own(my corp directors often have to drag me by the ear into a roam). But I recognize it as being the driving force that makes the other activities within the game doable. There is no NPC’s out there to buy up your modules and ships. And honestly, there is few missions out there that are a risk to an experienced pilot.

Thusly, that’s why I call Eve PvP first, because without it, you won’t have much of a game for very long without some drastic changes.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.01 19:23:00 - [548]
 

Originally by: Krecian
The only thing I could be considered “fundamentalist” about (nice attempt at rhetoric there, using a word that conjures images of religious zealots beating on “heretics”)


You have to understand that Deliliah is just an anti-PvP campaigner who is trolling the topic now with sophomoric word games. CCP says it's a PvP game, CCP advertises it as a PvP game, it also is a PvP game. But Deliliah and others support nerfing PvP, so they need to play silly word games that get old after first-year college English courses.
It's just the same old troll, like during the campaign when Deliliah rabidly attacked anybody who pointed out the facts about Ank and claimed that Ank's raging hatred of piracy and desire to nerf it into the ground really meant that she wanted to make the game better for everybody.

Plus the utter comedy of not understanding that the word Darwinian refers to something a bit more up to date than the Origin of Species is just some good troll-comedy there. It's like an idiot trying to argue for why economics aren't Darwinian, since we're not sure which applies, Punctuated Equilibrium or Gradualism! and of course, it's not a "thematic arc" (someone should have given the troll a few more low grades on freshman English papers, she writes like she's trying to apply a post-structrualist critique to mission running) Rolling Eyes

The essence of the entire game is a Darwinian struggle; for resources, for space, for market share, for trade routes, for time, for kills, whatever. Deliliah can troll her heart out and pretend that doesn't count since her Freshman English Comp 101 behavior is still intact and she can pretend that EVE is a "cosmos" (whatever she thinks that means) and it's not a PvP game because they're introducing walking in stations.

Because, obviously, if the Xbox Lobby feature allowed you to chat to people and you were represented via an avatar, Team Fortress II would be a "cosmos" and not a PvP game, either.

EVE is, and always will be a PvP game. Those who don't like that should probably just leave already. It's simply kind of dumb to join up in Team Fortress II and then whine about how there's so much shooting going on.


Delilah Wild
Posted - 2010.08.01 19:33:00 - [549]
 

Hi Kecian,

Your point is both well-made and well-taken.

In other posts I've noted that pvp is indispensable to Eve. This is very close to your linchpin idea as you've so well clarified it.

We might differ slightly, in that I also think other aspects of the game are indispensable and thus linchpins of Eve. Industry for example. But I'm not sure we disagree here, or are simply framing the matter differently. A non-antagonistic difference, so to speak.

Would industry count as a linchpin activity in your mind? Are there other aspects of Eve that are arguably dispensable or indispensable, and would thus affect whether Eve is though of as a pvp-game or sandbox with pvp?

Maybe we should shift a longer discussion of this over to another thread.

I'm glad you enjoyed the rhetorical strategy. Very Happy

Delilah
friendsofeve.wordpress.com

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.01 20:20:00 - [550]
 

Predictable trolling Deliliah, as always.
Try harder. At least make it funny, and not simply pretentious.


Team Fortress II is not a PvP game because:

-It has ammunition. That is a linchpin, and you can't shoot anybody without. Obviously then TFII is not a PvP game, but a game with ammunition and PvP.
-You can build things. Thus, it is not a game with ammunition and PvP, but an industrialist-ammo-PvP game.
-But TFII is also a game that relies on distance away from objects in order to calculate movement and lines of fire, therefore it has space, and thus it is a space simulation. So TFII is really a space simulation game that happens to occur on a planet with gravity.
-And, it isn't really even a PvP game, since you can play a medic all day and never hurt anybody. In fact, entire teams can play nothing but medics if they want. And, in fact, you can even cooperate. Even while shooting people, you can team up? And if you haven't seen a map, you can even explore it with friends. How crazy is that?!?

So, obvious, not a PvP game. What does that make Team Fortress II?
Obviously it is a space simulation game with elements of PvP, cooperation, ammunition, industry, and exploration. Kinda like a cosmos.

Only a PvP zealot would ever say that Team Fortress II was a PvP game.

Delilah Wild
Posted - 2010.08.02 02:37:00 - [551]
 

I love it when FinnAgain underscores my points through example. Thanks Finn! Very Happy

Chi Garu
Caldari
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.02 03:00:00 - [552]
 

Of course it's a pvp game. I don't understand why anyone's arguing that it isn't.

Exibit A: An interview from a few years ago touching on the initial vision for Eve and explaining why pvp is a core element of the game and not just an aspect of it.
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20050923/rossignol_01.shtml

Designed for pvp by pvpers. A pvp game. Neutral

Delilah Wild
Posted - 2010.08.02 03:27:00 - [553]
 

Hi Chi,

Thanks for the link. Very interesting.

I think you'll need something a tad stronger than that to claim Eve is simply a pvp-game. Emphasizing the importance of pvp versus pve is entirely consistent with a sandbox that fully integrates pvp alongside other activities. I don't think anyone on this topic has claimed that pvp is not an indispensable element to Eve. Moreover, this interview is from 2005, and you need to consider the changes to the game since then.

I say this not to deny the importance of pvp, but to place it in context.

Delilah
friendsofeve.wordpress.com


Hairy Bum
Posted - 2010.08.02 04:18:00 - [554]
 

If Eve was just simply a PvP game, why not do away with the whole mining/economy/sec status thing and just let people bash away at each other to the best of their skills?

Oh wait - if it has these other things then that means - taddah!! it's not JUST a PvP game afterall.

Guess the simple gets confused for the complex by the simple on these forums Laughing

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.02 04:26:00 - [555]
 

Nobody, anywhere, has said that the only thing you can do in EVE is PvP. And the reason behind mining/the economy is so that players have to work to produce ships, and they therefore have value, so when you're popped and/or podded you feel it. It's the set of consequences and context that CCP designed in, purposefully, to make PvP richer.

If you don't understand sec status's role in PvP, I'm not even sure where to begin.

Hairy Bum
Posted - 2010.08.02 04:40:00 - [556]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Nobody, anywhere, has said that the only thing you can do in EVE is PvP. And the reason behind mining/the economy is so that players have to work to produce ships, and they therefore have value, so when you're popped and/or podded you feel it. It's the set of consequences and context that CCP designed in, purposefully, to make PvP richer.

If you don't understand sec status's role in PvP, I'm not even sure where to begin.



Forgive me, but the way you - and others - carry on, a bystander would be under the impression that the only thing of any relevance in this game is PvP. If that is the case then many, many players are in fact wasting their time in this game.

What you (and others) seem to ignore is that plenty of people play eve for everything BUT PvP. You could even make a realistic call and say that 75% of the player base couldn't give a toss about PvP, and would still play the game if it was restricted to just 0.0.

I did a typo and put in sec status instead of system status (empire/low-sec/o.o). My mistake.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.02 05:09:00 - [557]
 

Maybe a particularly dense bystander. That's not my fault, though. I'm also not going to spend any effort explaining things to such a (hypothetical) brain donor.

As for you not understanding how system security status factors into PvP, ah well. I'd point out that CONCORD is punitive and not prohibitive, but meh.

Miyamoto Isoruku
Caldari
Original Sin.
Posted - 2010.08.02 05:49:00 - [558]
 

EVE is a PVP game by default, because virtually all of the PVE "content" is mind-numbingly dull. Just sayin'.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.02 06:02:00 - [559]
 

Edited by: FinnAgain Zero on 02/08/2010 06:04:11
TBH, that is kind of my mental reaction whenever anybody says they PvE in EVE, only.

"Why?!?!?"

The PvE content is EVE is absolutely horrible. There are any number of single player games that are much, much better. If you like grind play Disgaea. If you like spaceship pewpew play Freelancer or Freespace 1 & 2. And so on.

EVE, (while the servers actually let you) has the best PvP of any game on the 'net, and after four years I still have my pulse spike and get an adrenalin rush every now and again when I engage a target.

Of course, we don't have any actual metrics on how many people live in 0.0, and how many live in Empire. The best we have are 'screenshots' of character locations, which tell us nothing really. I have, IIRC, four characters in 0.0 now and 10 in Empire. Judging player occupation/nature by the location of all chars in the game is simply loopy.

/$.02

Hairy Bum
Posted - 2010.08.02 07:06:00 - [560]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Edited by: FinnAgain Zero on 02/08/2010 06:04:11
TBH, that is kind of my mental reaction whenever anybody says they PvE in EVE, only.

"Why?!?!?"



Last time I checked, I - and everyone else here - were not you (thankfully - what a sad world that would of been). Stil,l doesn't seem to prevent you from shoving your sad little ideals about the game down everyone else's throat. And last I saw, there was nothing in the EULA about playing the game in any particular style.

Though with that many accounts, maybe your view of the world is slightly skewed to the strange end of the spectrum. No wonder though everyone treats you like a joke Laughing .

Timathai
Populist Manufacturing and Exploration
Posted - 2010.08.02 11:35:00 - [561]
 

Ok, we've established that Eve is a pvp game. Can we get on to other subjects?
Some of what has happened in this situation is blind speculation. We really cannot know for certain what happened until ankh quits the game and posts the issues at hand, and CCP confirms.

What we do know is that CCP has a track record of un-professional actions by members of it's staff. They work very hard to eliminate discussion of past transgressions that have actually come to light. And, one wonders what has occured that has never been known by the player base.

Is it possible that CCP may have taken action within a set of guidelines they interpret and created? Yes. Likely? We can only look at other companies, in any field, and see if the humans running them would take an action of that type to see if that is so.

Aside from pvp issues, or pve issues, we do need some sort of transparency from CCP on a number of issues. I can't see them changing their stance though. I for one would like to know that no employee of the company ever play eve during their employment. It opens the door for too many temptations to abuse their position. I would also like to see a mechanic in the game implemented to bring balance issues to the player base as a whole, one that can be viewed by all in terms of statistics of complaints, the type of issues people are concerned about as an entire community, and not simply the player base that decided to post on a forum buried somewhere inside a huge morass of other content and discussion.

With CCP's track record of unbalancing the game through employee indiscretion, as well as actively seeking to eliminate any vocalization of these events, we as a community of players needs a better, and more open, sytem of management of our interests.
I for one find very little wrong with the mechanics of the game, overall. There are some glaring exceptions, and these need to be addressed. CCP knows that adding shine to the game pads their wallet. I cant fault them for that.
But, in the interests of keeping players in the long term, and cutting down on the amount of ad-space they need to buy from gaming magazines to keep new recruits in, working on the existing aspects to make the flawless game they are capable of, as well as eliminating the issues of mis-trust from the player base should be a prime concern.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.02 15:42:00 - [562]
 

Originally by: Timathai
We really cannot know for certain what happened until ankh quits the game and posts the issues at hand, and CCP confirms.


Almost certainly will not happen. NDA breach is a career-ending accusation and the fact that it's been weeks since Ank's denial and promise of new information "tomorrow", it seems unlikely that she's got anything else to say. And CCP opens themselves up to legal damage/challenge if they release information that they do not have to.

As for keeping devs away from understanding the game by playing it, that's a horrible idea. You want people to design and tweak a game they don't actually understand... because one dev, in the history of the game, gave one decent and a bunch of fairly lame T2 BPO's to his buddies. Very bad idea.

As is "balance by complain frequency." Balance doesn't mean appeasement, it means balance. If they were truly going to 'balance' Piracy/suicide ganking with bears, they'd have to hugely boost the gankers. It won't ever happen, of course, but should they further nerf them just because one of the perennial whines is about how "unbalanced" those dreadful gankers are and how they need to be put in their place?

Trolling removed. Zymurgist

Krecian
Gallente
Essence of Decay
Black Cartel.
Posted - 2010.08.02 19:06:00 - [563]
 

DW – Does PvP depend on Industry? Yes, I believe I acknowledged that. Indeed, the two sides are interdependent on each other in ways that extremists on both sides of the fence refuse to acknowledge. Can PvP exist without industry? No more than industry can exist without PvP without substantial changes.

But still, you cannot push aside PvP as the core aspect of the game. Yes, I acknowledge there are those who have no wish to engage in PvP. I would call those people willfully ignorant given the nature of the game. As I have stated before, Player versus Player goes beyond simple combat. It stretches into trade and industry as well. Really, the only part of the game that has the least amount of PvP is mission-running – unless somebody comes in and takes your loot.

I found myself pondering the Sandbox definition as well today. A game that advertises itself as a Sandbox needs give the players a great deal of freedom to do as they desire. Eve succeeds at this greatly. And many of us (myself included), see the ability to shoot each other being tied to this. You cannot separate the two and call it a true sandbox. I believe those in the hardcore PvE end of the spectrum realize this as well. Is this why I see many of you clinging to the term “Cosmos” instead? A convenient word you can use to spin the meaning of Eve away from its true soul?

But, I suppose that is away from the true purpose of this thread. Afterall, we’re supposed to be discussing the removal of a certain CSM no? A CSM that I truly believe only became as big as she did because the extremists on the PvP crowd gave her attention she frankly didn’t deserve. They might have been better served at keeping their mouths shut rather than opening them and making the PvP crowd look like a bunch of neaderthals. If anything, their extremist attacks only strengthened her position. And honestly, these people really should stay out of the politics of the situation and stick to what they’re good at – being the predators that make this game interesting to folks like me.

As for the removal of Ankh, it is my position that if she did breech an NDA, then they are well within their rights to remove her, elected or not. Our Elected officials need to be held to the same standards as everybody else. To not remove her would send a message to the players that CCP is still not above playing favorites.

Should they reveal what the breech was? There is no need to do so. I find Ankh’s silence after all this time to be telling enough of her guilt.

Timathai
Populist Manufacturing and Exploration
Posted - 2010.08.02 19:35:00 - [564]
 

@ Finnagain Zero- The first thing I would like to point out is that you've been selective in what aspects of my post you chose to focus on.

I should have been more succint when I was discussing a new format for players to assist in redressing balance issues. A "complaint" was'nt described in the spirit of appeasement. It was redressed in the idea of mechanics, and some things that are obviously out of balance. IE; the Dramiel and it's vast superiority to any other frigate in the game. Rockets, and their uselessness. Rockets are so poor that hull platforms that provide bonuses to them get a better dps using weapons not designed for the hull, or race for that matter. And the ability that went so long to make profit via insurance fraud and made suicide ganking a near thoughtless enterprise. Being able to suicide gank, pricelesss. Being able to do it with no consequence other than a security status hit, broken.

Carebears whining about"fairplay" and " why should I be forced to PvP" are about the most useless people in this game, they dont understand the focus of Eve as a whole, and do nothing but provide easy marks.

As for the issue you claim was "one dev gives bpo's" doesnt take in to account the times titans have been mysteriously replaced to pet alliances, the infamous MOO incident, and a series of other events that we wont go in to here; these things are known to the player base, and it does nothing to help the conversation. CCP's pattern of conduct is well established, and needs to be re-dressed.

If the staff at CCP was unable to play the game, or there was a public policy of immediate termination for using their position for interfereing in the game in that manner, I think it would alleviate some of the trust issues the player base has.

Also- providing a system by which players can review balance issues, via a short, succint form, with check boxes that describe the issues in general terms, with CSM able to add new categories based around player trends, is not appeasement.

Appeasement would be to make pvp impossible with the click of a button, or to bow down to any of the other stupid ideas that some of the players have. A base example of the extremes is to make all of eve like 0.0, or that all pvp should be impossible in any place a care bear chooses. But when you have a system that can compile statistics about what players are actually concerned with,(once again in terms of balance, not appeasement)you give the players a stronger voice, and CCP a clearer signpost as to what will improve the game in an immediate manner.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.02 20:20:00 - [565]
 

Originally by: Timathai
@ Finnagain Zero- The first thing I would like to point out is that you've been selective in what aspects of my post you chose to focus on.


Of course. Why should I respond to things that I have no interest in discussing?

Originally by: Timathai

As for the issue you claim was "one dev gives bpo's" doesnt take in to account the times titans have been mysteriously replaced to pet alliances, the infamous MOO incident, and a series of other events that we wont go in to here; these things are known to the player base, and it does nothing to help the conversation. CCP's pattern of conduct is well established, and needs to be re-dressed.


What mysterious replacements? Titans have been petitioned and returned, IIRC, but there was never any form of stealth replacement. As for Moo, come on. That was, what, 7 years ago now?
The only actual events you have to point to were T20 and a public and obvious decision that the devs made to deal with Moo, that they later regretted and haven't duplicated in more than half a decade.

There are plenty of valid complaints to lay at CCP's feet without breaking out the tinfoil.
Originally by: Krecian
Indeed, the two sides are interdependent on each other in ways that extremists on both sides of the fence refuse to acknowledge.


You've invented a fantasy "extremist" in order to construct your argument. Quote one PvPer, anywhere, honestly saying that their ships are created by magic and that nobody has to build them. PvPers, in the main, understand exactly what role industry serves.

Originally by: Krecian

the PvP crowd gave her attention she frankly didn’t deserve. [...] their extremist attacks only strengthened her position.


All, absolutely all of the substantive "attacks" on Ankhybonkeybonkers relied on her own words, her own beliefs, and her own actions. All. Nothing was "extremist". And, it turns out, people were absolutely right. She had some major damage that caused her to be unable to differentiate real life and actions taken in a video game, she was unstable and unable to work with others, and eventually she stepped so far out of line that CCP removed her. Those of us who warned the community about her were right. Those who voted for her were not only wrong, they hilariously made sure that instead of a "hardcore carebear" that they wanted to elect, the person who actually fills that seat now is from Pandemic Legion.

T'Amber
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2010.08.02 20:58:00 - [566]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero

All, absolutely all of the substantive "attacks" on Ankhybonkeybonkers relied on her own words, her own beliefs, and her own actions. All. Nothing was "extremist". And, it turns out, people were absolutely right. She had some major damage that caused her to be unable to differentiate real life and actions taken in a video game, she was unstable and unable to work with others, and eventually she stepped so far out of line that CCP removed her.



I'm beggining to wonder if CCP created a ficticious NDA breach so they could get Anhk out of the CSM and into their damage control team.

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero

Those of us who warned the community about her were right. Those who voted for her were not only wrong, they hilariously made sure that instead of a "hardcore carebear" that they wanted to elect, the person who actually fills that seat now is from Pandemic Legion.



:) If only I'd voted for myself eh. I have more accounts than the difference between mine and mynx's vote counts - and I was the more obvious "care bear" choice right :)


Hairy Bum
Posted - 2010.08.02 22:39:00 - [567]
 

Edited by: Hairy Bum on 02/08/2010 22:43:58
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
All, absolutely all of the substantive "attacks" on Ankhybonkeybonkers relied on her own words, her own beliefs, and her own actions. All. Nothing was "extremist". And, it turns out, people were absolutely right. She had some major damage that caused her to be unable to differentiate real life and actions taken in a video game, she was unstable and unable to work with others, and eventually she stepped so far out of line that CCP removed her.


Bet the lawyers are going to have a field day with you - especially considering that you are making adverse reputational and personal aspersions about a person whose name, profession and nationally are widely known here.Laughing

Just goes to show what sort of a very stupid person you really are FinnAgain.

I hope you get torn a new one by her lawyers. Wink

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.02 23:18:00 - [568]
 

Originally by: T'Amber

I'm beggining to wonder if CCP created a ficticious NDA breach so they could get Anhk out of the CSM and into their damage control team.


It's possible but ultimately very unlikely. An NDA breach is just about as serious a charge as you can make in the games industry, like alleging a doctor never actually finished med school or an accountant is skimming money off the top. If CCP had invented an NDA breach, Ank would have been able to prove it and would have had a massive lawsuit against them. Barring some truly weird circumstances, it sure seems that Ank did something to merit dismissal.

Originally by: T'Amber

If only I'd voted for myself eh. I have more accounts than the difference between mine and mynx's vote counts - and I was the more obvious "care bear" choice right



Heh, that'll teach you not to take full advantage of every single facet in EVE Online Twisted Evil
I do think, of course, that there would've been some much better choices that Ank's voters could have made, which would have still resulted in dedicated 'bears on the council (who would have, also, kept their seats). In the end, the people who voted for her did so with their eyes open, the facts on the table, and the utter unsuitability of their candidate clear. They cut their noses off to spite their faces, so they could say "Nyeh nyeh PvPers, you can't make us do anything!!! Not even if you're backed up by facts, logic and common sense! You you you... griefers!!!"
Tactical error, it turned out.

Krecian
Gallente
Essence of Decay
Black Cartel.
Posted - 2010.08.02 23:20:00 - [569]
 

Oh please, I didn't invent anything here Finn. Extremists exist in every walk of life, doesn't matter which creed, religion, political party, or Eve play-style you belong to. It’s just a fact of the human condition that such people exist. Even you, with the exaggerated style in which I’ve watched you attack people’s posts, come off as one of them. It doesn’t matter if this is what you truly are as it’s the image you are projecting.

Sure, Ankh said these things. However, it’s my view that having personalities extremely unpopular with the hardcore bear crowd denouncing her did more to help her campaign than hurt. If for no other reason, than to watch those who profess how they like to watch other’s cry over internet spaceships get all teary-eyed themselves. Delicious irony such as that would be great giggles to a vengeful carebear.

I will concede you this point; you are right in that PvP’rs in general do acknowledge they are dependent on the industrialist. I think most of them just want the same acknowledgement from the industrialists in return. Indeed, I see events such as Hulkageddon as a awakening to that branch of the community that they too must take their turn in the great cycle.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.02 23:32:00 - [570]
 

I haven't "exaggerated" anything in anybody's post. And even if you believe I "come off as an extremist" in your personal approximation, that still doesn't make me one. The "PvP extremists" are as real as the "PvP fundamentalists" and are both just created as rhetorical crutches.

The same with Ank's campaign; nobody was crying about anything. And as you've admitted: their charges were accurate and your earlier claim about "extremist" attacks is spurious. Unless, of course, you're misusing "extremist" in the same sense you're misusing it where I'm concerned, that is to mean "someone/something I do not personally care for." But that's not a very good definition.
Further, the fact that people voted for her despite her manifest unsuitability, and all the facts on that score being clearly laid out, is their fault. And they got what they deserved.
The Universe has a sense of humor sometimes.

Quote:

I will concede you this point; you are right in that PvP’rs in general do acknowledge they are dependent on the industrialist. I think most of them just want the same acknowledgement from the industrialists in return. Indeed, I see events such as Hulkageddon as a awakening to that branch of the community that they too must take their turn in the great cycle.



This is the point. PvPers, by and large, don't object to people 'bearing (in fact, many PvPers have to bear from time to time to make the ISK they need to shoot stuff), they do object to people who create accounts in a PvP game (EVE Online) and then go bonkers when they find out that there is PvP in this PvP game. People like the late and unlamented CSM delegate who so confused reality with fantasy that she thought people who blow things up in a video game were actual sociopaths, since someone who blows things up in real life would have to have something wrong with them.


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