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Titanius Bridge
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.07.08 22:22:00 - [361]
 

I don't think it's a terribly big proposal to ask for some further information than what we've been given. We can't expect to learn it all, but something a little more concrete than we've received so far would a nice, and it wouldn't have to be written in an NDA-breaching manner.

Cobalt Sixty
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.07.08 23:04:00 - [362]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Cobalt Sixty
Edited by: Cobalt Sixty on 08/07/2010 17:57:44
Originally by: Clovermite
Keep the details - it's confidential, I totally understand the need to protect proprietary information. DO, however, point to a specific form of breach.
Why is this so necessary? The very nature of a NDA breach implies sensitive information was divulged to a third party. Releasing information beyond that (the acknowledgement of event) only serves to increase the risk of the sensitive information in question being further exposed.


CCP claims that the idea of the CSM is a better communication between players and CCP. Then it is kinda weird not communicate about the CSM to the players if the entire idea was to communicate.
By way of response:
Originally by: Mel Lifera
Yeah, but I heard this crazy rumor that, like, by "better communication", they were totally talking about regarding gameplay issues and concerns, yo.

and,
Originally by: Sokratesz
You forgo the entire idea, namely that there's things that CCP doesn't want to be public, and that's their bloody right.

- just so you're aware I acknowledge your comment even if your argument was shot down by guns trained on it more quickly than mine could be.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2010.07.08 23:05:00 - [363]
 

Originally by: Dr Lebroi
My summary:-

CSM travel to Iceland for a nice chat with CCP. CSM ask CCP nicely, 'If you do really care about the players, please can you fix all the stuff that makes us unhappy?'

CCP say, 'Sorry we can't, half the company is working on a new game (Dust) and the other half is working on what is sort of a new game (Incarna) so none of that stuff is ever going to get fixed. We did have a quick look at it and realised that we can't fix it anyway because we don't know how, that's why we are working on new games, we're hoping people will forget about all that stuff that's wrong with Eve when they can walk around stations and do FPS type stuff.’

CSM politely ask CCP, 'What's the point of the CSM then as we can only raise current player concerns? These concerns revolve around the game that thousands of people are currently paying a monthly subscription to play; they would like it to work. They are not currently concerned about other games or future CCP projects.

CCP reply 'The point of the CSM is to persuade less intelligent Eve players that CCP are doing something proactive about the on-going problems in Eve. The CSM is buying us time until we give the less intelligent Eve players a new toy. Our marketing gurus have told us that once they have a new toy they’ll forget about lag etc and continue to happily subscribe without complaining. Now CSM, sign this and shut yer cakeholes if you want to keep getting your free trip to Iceland.’

My conclusions:-

Most Eve players don’t know or care what the CSM is. Most Eve players don’t read this forum. CCP have no need to continue with their CSM charade, no one cares. The majority will judge CCP products not by their promises of ‘development’, ‘on-going support’, ‘de-bugging’, ‘streamlining’ or ‘optimization’ they will simply ask the questions, ‘is it fun’, ‘does it work’, ‘is it worth the money’. Whether or not CCP chose to listen to their players or not is up to them, but if their policy of releasing unfinished and untested products continues I suspect they will see the good sense of the public prevail. They will vote with their feet.



Your summary is inaccurate.
First of all, Dust is not being worked on by CCP Reykavik, but by CCP shanghai. A significant part of CCP resources are allocated to InCarna + some new stuff. What we said are we do not know yet how much resources are going to be available for the things we deem important, they may be small or large, we just don't know. We THINK they are going to be small and are going to be unhappy if that's the case, but that's impossible to say before the expansion planning is finished, and that's not happened yet. So rushing and saying we won't get our requests heard is premature at this stage.

Also, your paraphrased CCP reply is incorrect. While there is no doubt that there is a gap between player's perception and that of some of the decision makers within CCP, CCP is giving us the tools to make our voice heard by, among others, appointing someone to attend the regular planning meetings that are held. If it was only paying lip service, they wouldn't do that.
Every CSM that happens, we get more and more influence and tools to make our voice heard. It's a slow process to be sure, but CCP has the balls to try player representatives, so cut them some slack, we'll see how it goes before saying it fails.

All the devs we meet seem genuinely interested in the feedback we give them and responsive to our requests. The big barrier we were yet to go through is getting our stuff into the release planning, and we got it this time. Time will tell, I for one intend to make full use of the opportunity we're given...

Cobalt Sixty
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.07.08 23:15:00 - [364]
 

Originally by: Titanius Bridge
I don't think it's a terribly big proposal to ask for some further information than what we've been given. We can't expect to learn it all, but something a little more concrete than we've received so far would a nice, and it wouldn't have to be written in an NDA-breaching manner.
I don't think you understand the situation. Breaching an NDA involves disclosing sensitive information to a 3rd party without authorization to do so.

It is possible that by disclosing more specific details of the event that CCP could risk increased exposure of the sensitive information involved.

You (all) also have to carefully consider that this most probably isn't something that occurred in-game but in fact quite out of it - a world not administered by CCP but by far greater powers with their own terms and conditions to be followed.




Leil Ren'Do
Posted - 2010.07.08 23:24:00 - [365]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

Your summary is inaccurate.
First of all, Dust is not being worked on by CCP Reykavik, but by CCP shanghai. A significant part of CCP resources are allocated to InCarna + some new stuff. What we said are we do not know yet how much resources are going to be available for the things we deem important, they may be small or large, we just don't know. We THINK they are going to be small and are going to be unhappy if that's the case, but that's impossible to say before the expansion planning is finished, and that's not happened yet. So rushing and saying we won't get our requests heard is premature at this stage.

Also, your paraphrased CCP reply is incorrect. While there is no doubt that there is a gap between player's perception and that of some of the decision makers within CCP, CCP is giving us the tools to make our voice heard by, among others, appointing someone to attend the regular planning meetings that are held. If it was only paying lip service, they wouldn't do that.
Every CSM that happens, we get more and more influence and tools to make our voice heard. It's a slow process to be sure, but CCP has the balls to try player representatives, so cut them some slack, we'll see how it goes before saying it fails.

All the devs we meet seem genuinely interested in the feedback we give them and responsive to our requests. The big barrier we were yet to go through is getting our stuff into the release planning, and we got it this time. Time will tell, I for one intend to make full use of the opportunity we're given...


Personal attack removed.Applebabe
ccp are no saints, let's all get this into our heads pls.

Personal attack removed.Applebabe but she did something that ****ed ccp off enough to do stupid things.
This is interesting. It's interesting to see how ccp will handle this.
If they are unable to cope with this in a way that will satisfy the very people that
pay them, they will prove to be more rotten than we all feared they are.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2010.07.08 23:32:00 - [366]
 

Originally by: Leil Ren'Do
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

Your summary is inaccurate.
First of all, Dust is not being worked on by CCP Reykavik, but by CCP shanghai. A significant part of CCP resources are allocated to InCarna + some new stuff. What we said are we do not know yet how much resources are going to be available for the things we deem important, they may be small or large, we just don't know. We THINK they are going to be small and are going to be unhappy if that's the case, but that's impossible to say before the expansion planning is finished, and that's not happened yet. So rushing and saying we won't get our requests heard is premature at this stage.

Also, your paraphrased CCP reply is incorrect. While there is no doubt that there is a gap between player's perception and that of some of the decision makers within CCP, CCP is giving us the tools to make our voice heard by, among others, appointing someone to attend the regular planning meetings that are held. If it was only paying lip service, they wouldn't do that.
Every CSM that happens, we get more and more influence and tools to make our voice heard. It's a slow process to be sure, but CCP has the balls to try player representatives, so cut them some slack, we'll see how it goes before saying it fails.

All the devs we meet seem genuinely interested in the feedback we give them and responsive to our requests. The big barrier we were yet to go through is getting our stuff into the release planning, and we got it this time. Time will tell, I for one intend to make full use of the opportunity we're given...


Personal attack removed.Applebabe
ccp are no saints, let's all get this into our heads pls.

Personal attack removed.Applebabe but she did something that ****ed ccp off enough to do stupid things.
This is interesting. It's interesting to see how ccp will handle this.
If they are unable to cope with this in a way that will satisfy the very people that
pay them, they will prove to be more rotten than we all feared they are.


Never said they're saints, far from it, however as much fun as bashing CCP is, it's unjustified in this instance. I resent you calling me Inappropriate content removed.Applebabebtw. I've never been a puppet, I'm here to break the dychotomy. What do you prefer? That I get in with the crowd and say "yeah, CCP are idiots, they ignore us, this is just PR" or provide a point of view that's actually thought out and representative of my experience in dealing with CCP for the past 2 years?
Also, I've been labelled a few things, but never ignorant... Whatever...

My opinion about ankhe has been clear for a long while and is visible in many places on this forum and elsewhere, I don't think I need to repeat that (it's in line with yours, only a bit moreso :p)
I agree CCP could handle this "eva being kicked" a bit better, but their maneuvering margin is narrow, and I don't think they could disclose exactly what she did, how they figured it out, etc. Not just yet anyway...

Titanius Bridge
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.07.08 23:52:00 - [367]
 

Originally by: Cobalt Sixty
Originally by: Titanius Bridge
I don't think it's a terribly big proposal to ask for some further information than what we've been given. We can't expect to learn it all, but something a little more concrete than we've received so far would a nice, and it wouldn't have to be written in an NDA-breaching manner.
I don't think you understand the situation. Breaching an NDA involves disclosing sensitive information to a 3rd party without authorization to do so.

It is possible that by disclosing more specific details of the event that CCP could risk increased exposure of the sensitive information involved.

You (all) also have to carefully consider that this most probably isn't something that occurred in-game but in fact quite out of it - a world not administered by CCP but by far greater powers with their own terms and conditions to be followed.


I understand that part. I'm just saying, there are ways to talk about the incident without revealing the information that was under the NDA. They can give us more info while protecting their assets, can they not?

AterraX
Caldari
Posted - 2010.07.09 00:01:00 - [368]
 

Originally by: Titanius Bridge
I understand that part. I'm just saying, there are ways to talk about the incident without revealing the information that was under the NDA. They can give us more info while protecting their assets, can they not?


dosn't seem like you understand that part at all.
Because you keep pushing for CCP to reveal information under NDA, as to why Ankbrokethenda got booted.


Titanius Bridge
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.07.09 00:46:00 - [369]
 

Originally by: AterraX
dosn't seem like you understand that part at all.
Because you keep pushing for CCP to reveal information under NDA, as to why Ankbrokethenda got booted.



That's not the information I'm asking for. Or are you saying the entire situation is under NDA so we have to be left in the dark about the entire set of events?

Dr Lebroi
Posted - 2010.07.09 00:58:00 - [370]
 



Your summary is inaccurate.


I'd love to be wrong, I genuinely hope I am wrong as I'm not one of the 'Eve is dying' brigade but there's been a lot of bad ju ju around recently and this CSM stuff smells real fishy too.

The question remains, will CCP fix the under lying problems or won't they?

I can't really see how the CSM saying to the player base:-

'We know but we CAN'T tell you.’

is any better than CCP saying to the player base:-

'We know but we WON'T tell you.'

My gut feeling is that this amounts to the suppression of bad news for long term players rather than CCP being keen not to spoil a wonderful surprise.

Whatever your colleague revealed (if this has been documented on another website, can someone provide a link?) is probably not related (and CCP have every right to protect their business of course) but why involve player representatives in the development secrets of the company if these very representatives have no real ability to influence the product development policy?

It’s like a man who makes fireworks telling his children where he keeps the matches.

If the player representatives do have the ability to influence product development policy then why are CCP not getting the message? Fix what we have already (a brilliant but flawed game) before you make anything new.

Well maybe this.

CCP has to chase the dollar because thousand of people within the game are not paying to play it as they cheat the system to generate isk.

How many 0.0 alliances now systematically use python injection to modify the client to keep pace with all the others who are at it? They don’t pay to play Eve and appear to be largely un- policed.

How many people use Bots? They don’t pay to play Eve and appear to be largely un-stoppable.

If you were CCP, would you want to fix lag for these people? They cheat the game so they don’t have to pay for it.

The massive greed of players who have sought to exploit the game for their own ends has meant that their opinions now count for nothing. On the other hand, a day old noob is the guy that all the content is being developed for because his monthly subscription pays the wages.

New players bring in dollars without any pre-conceptions about the current state of the game. New players are attracted by marketing, marketing in turn must have a shiney to market so CCP are forced to regularly build said shiney to attract new players.

Maintaining/optimizing/upgrading a former shiney is not marketing news. In 6 months time CCP won’t be launching a huge campaign for new players on the basis of:-

‘Look we cured the lag beast in a game you’ve never played before!’

‘You know that sim city thing on planets? We’ve made it work better!’

‘Hey, we know you don’t know what rockets are, but we fixed em!’

Hence Dust, hence Incarna.

Tellenta
Gallente
versic LLC
Posted - 2010.07.09 01:03:00 - [371]
 

Originally by: Titanius Bridge
Originally by: AterraX
dosn't seem like you understand that part at all.
Because you keep pushing for CCP to reveal information under NDA, as to why Ankbrokethenda got booted.



That's not the information I'm asking for. Or are you saying the entire situation is under NDA so we have to be left in the dark about the entire set of events?


So you understand that she was kicked for breaking the NDA, and you want CCP to disclose what exactly in the NDA sh broke thereby disclosing to you the information they did not want disclosed. Anything she said or did that was not a violation of the NDA is not relevant due to the obvious. Well not obvious to everyone I guess.

Cobalt Sixty
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.07.09 01:03:00 - [372]
 

Originally by: Titanius Bridge
Originally by: AterraX
dosn't seem like you understand that part at all.
Because you keep pushing for CCP to reveal information under NDA, as to why Ankbrokethenda got booted.



That's not the information I'm asking for. Or are you saying the entire situation is under NDA so we have to be left in the dark about the entire set of events?

1) Further revelations regarding the NDA breach may increase the risk that the information that was exposed could be exposed to a wider audience. We do not know the circumstances of the breach - this is true. However, as we do not know those circumstances, we can hardly judge what is and isn't appropriate for CCP to disclose to us about the breach. I think this may be called a "Catch 22" situation.

2) As I suggested earlier, the situation may have moved beyond the scope of the NDA - there may now be other external factors being considered by CCP and Eva Jobse - significant ones.

Titanius Bridge
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.07.09 01:13:00 - [373]
 

Edited by: Titanius Bridge on 09/07/2010 01:17:05
Edited by: Titanius Bridge on 09/07/2010 01:15:19
Thanks for explaining that, Cobalt. It makes more sense. I still don't like being left in the dark, but if it isn't possible, I'm not going to pursue it. I'm just too used to RL authorities keeping things secret that have no business being kept from the public.

Hagen Guralman
Posted - 2010.07.09 01:37:00 - [374]
 

Originally by: Dr Lebroi
My gut feeling is that this amounts to the suppression of bad news for long term players rather than CCP being keen not to spoil a wonderful surprise.


Not necessarily. There are plenty of reasons why companies will not, and absolutely MUST not divulge information. For example, there are rules around how companies recognize revenues after disclosing information related to future projects (I'm not an accountant, so I don't know the exact rules).

Remember, CCP is a company, and it also has rules it has to follow. The NDA isn't just about keeping information secret for PR or marketing purposes, it's also about following corporate law.


Tarasina
Posted - 2010.07.09 02:05:00 - [375]
 

Edited by: Tarasina on 09/07/2010 02:05:48
Originally by: Dr Lebroi


Your summary is inaccurate.


*snipped a few lines*
CCP has to chase the dollar because thousand of people within the game are not paying to play it as they cheat the system to generate isk.

How many 0.0 alliances now systematically use python injection to modify the client to keep pace with all the others who are at it? They don’t pay to play Eve and appear to be largely un- policed.

How many people use Bots? They don’t pay to play Eve and appear to be largely un-stoppable.

If you were CCP, would you want to fix lag for these people? They cheat the game so they don’t have to pay for it.

The massive greed of players who have sought to exploit the game for their own ends has meant that their opinions now count for nothing. On the other hand, a day old noob is the guy that all the content is being developed for because his monthly subscription pays the wages.

New players bring in dollars without any pre-conceptions about the current state of the game. New players are attracted by marketing, marketing in turn must have a shiney to market so CCP are forced to regularly build said shiney to attract new players.

Maintaining/optimizing/upgrading a former shiney is not marketing news. In 6 months time CCP won’t be launching a huge campaign for new players on the basis of:-

‘Look we cured the lag beast in a game you’ve never played before!’

‘You know that sim city thing on planets? We’ve made it work better!’

‘Hey, we know you don’t know what rockets are, but we fixed em!’

Hence Dust, hence Incarna.



Playing the game by purchasing PLEX DOES bring CCP the cash, regardless. Every penny of it. If you pay with creditcard or PLEX, it doesn't matter to CCP.
But I have to agree with you on the last part, the new stuff. New players don't care for old bugs, simply because they don't know about them unless...they are gamebreaking, say makes the game crash, constantly.

Which, it seems, fleet fights seem to do. But new players aren't involved in those right off the bat.

I don't know about you but I research my MMOS before buying the game. Tech support forum and general forum is the first place I go to in any MMO before purchase. After that gameplay.

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2010.07.09 03:17:00 - [376]
 

Originally by: Tarasina

Playing the game by purchasing PLEX DOES bring CCP the cash, regardless. Every penny of it. If you pay with creditcard or PLEX, it doesn't matter to CCP.



This is a common miss-conception.

Yes all PLEX comes from real world spent money so CCP is not "losing isk" to PLEX.

What people fail to appreciate is that as older players switch to PLEX and newer players are the major buyers of PLEX this creates a situation where CCP has to chase new subscribers for cash-flow.

At the expense of having a game worth playing.....
This is likely the reason all the expansions are pure hype for WoW kids and we have gone so long without fixes.


Hon Dao
Posted - 2010.07.09 04:20:00 - [377]
 

Edited by: Hon Dao on 09/07/2010 04:23:30
Which leads into the question, would CCP be more willing to put money into fixing long term bugs, and less into flashy but largely unwanted expansions, if the long term customers were willing to either go back to paying subscriptions, or at least have the price point of PLEXs artificailly shifted, so that CCP weren't so reliant on new customers buying them?

If you're not actually paying towards the running of a game, then why should you have any say in how it should be run?

This of course this makes the CSM even more laughable, and most likely irrelevant in the eyes of CCP, as they represent mainly these non-paying users instead of the new players who do pay.

KaarBaak
Minmatar
Seatec Astronomy
Posted - 2010.07.09 04:34:00 - [378]
 


At some point, based on the actual incident as well as the drama it's created, CCP has to decide whether the CSM brings more benefit vs liability.

Looking more and more like it's just too much hassle with so little return.

KB

Zenst
Hall Of Flame
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2010.07.09 04:49:00 - [379]
 

Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
Originally by: Tarasina

Playing the game by purchasing PLEX DOES bring CCP the cash, regardless. Every penny of it. If you pay with creditcard or PLEX, it doesn't matter to CCP.



This is a common miss-conception.

Yes all PLEX comes from real world spent money so CCP is not "losing isk" to PLEX.

What people fail to appreciate is that as older players switch to PLEX and newer players are the major buyers of PLEX this creates a situation where CCP has to chase new subscribers for cash-flow.

At the expense of having a game worth playing.....
This is likely the reason all the expansions are pure hype for WoW kids and we have gone so long without fixes.




Rolling Eyes

The only misconception is your own.

PLEX are the product of GTC's or brought from CCP, these costs real life money. Iraspective if you pay for the game via subscription or PLEX; CCP still gets payed in real money. Now the more newer players the odds are they will by extra GTC's to sell and that makes PLEX's cheaper, PLEX's can only get into the game one way, and thats from real money.

I hope that explains it, if not have a good think about it, do some research and get back to us on the forums here. Remember, if nobody sold PLEX's then there would be none available to buy ingame and the only way to get them ingame is to pay CCP either directly or via one of there agents to obtain a GTC. CCP get payed no matter what, dont you worry about that.


Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2010.07.09 05:10:00 - [380]
 

Edited by: Dr BattleSmith on 09/07/2010 05:12:34
Originally by: Zenst

Remember, if nobody sold PLEX's then there would be none available to buy ingame and the only way to get them ingame is to pay CCP either directly or via one of there agents to obtain a GTC.



Yes PLEX is a supply and demand market, amazing observation.

Supply comes mostly from new subscribers.
Demand comes mostly from old subscribers.

See?

CCP has control over supply also with the PLEX monthly limited quota.


Without the internal numbers it's impossible to say, my speculation is that most PLEX purchasers are
new subscribers and thus CCP is aware that these new subscribers are key to their cash-flow.

If new users dried up, then PLEX may dry up, then you'd see exactly what you're talking about.
This would force the old users to buy their subscriptions or pay an ever increasing price from traders.
Until this point the cash-flow comes from new users regardless of who is spending the PLEX.

However with CCP chasing new subscribers exclusively with each expansion you won't see this, as you've observed.

Zenst
Hall Of Flame
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2010.07.09 05:45:00 - [381]
 

Edited by: Zenst on 09/07/2010 05:49:24
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
Edited by: Dr BattleSmith on 09/07/2010 05:12:34
Originally by: Zenst

Remember, if nobody sold PLEX's then there would be none available to buy ingame and the only way to get them ingame is to pay CCP either directly or via one of there agents to obtain a GTC.



Yes PLEX is a supply and demand market, amazing observation.

Supply comes mostly from new subscribers.
Demand comes mostly from old subscribers.

See?

CCP has control over supply also with the PLEX monthly limited quota.


Without the internal numbers it's impossible to say, my speculation is that most PLEX purchasers are
new subscribers and thus CCP is aware that these new subscribers are key to their cash-flow.

If new users dried up, then PLEX may dry up, then you'd see exactly what you're talking about.
This would force the old users to buy their subscriptions or pay an ever increasing price from traders.
Until this point the cash-flow comes from new users regardless of who is spending the PLEX.

However with CCP chasing new subscribers exclusively with each expansion you won't see this, as you've observed.





FYI I doubt CCP deliberatly control the price of PLEX as an intention, its mearly a side effect of them selling there product to new customers.

I think we shall leave it there as were tangenting way to much for me to carry on this discussion and its late. But ask yourself, what point your tring to make and does it realy matter and if so, perhaps start a thread related to that issue were it would be more appropriatly discussed by the mass's.

Now sing after me "ding dong the witch is dead".

Laughing

Lysander Kaldenn
Dead Reckoning.
Posted - 2010.07.09 06:37:00 - [382]
 

Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 09/07/2010 06:38:13
This is my favorite thread ever! Personal attack removed.

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2010.07.09 07:00:00 - [383]
 

Okay first off from a legal standpoint they probably can't discuss the matter further or exactly mention what event broke the NDA. European laws in general are much more strict than American law on matters of privacy.

Why they don't just come out and say that and stop the speculation I don't know. The initial statement probably should have included a statement about due to counsel from our legal department we can make no other comment.

On the matter of the CSM, basically waste of time. Just like SWG Senate was pre NGE and pre CU. In truth development companies do whatever they want regardless of input from players. It is just a touchy feely process meant to make you feel good. Such a representation is not sufficiently large enough to base any major game decisions on. Lets just hope that CCP is not being like SOE and going to focus groups that never played the game so that they wreck it down the line.

The ones that really want to go and do it are probably not the best representatives, much like politicians typically don't represent their constituents adequately. It takes a certain amount of narcissism to desire such positions, which often is at odds with the common man.

Cobalt Sixty
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.07.09 07:10:00 - [384]
 

Originally by: El'Niaga
Why they don't just come out and say that and stop the speculation I don't know.

Okay, now go back and read the first line in your own (and same) post:
Originally by: El'Niaga
Okay first off from a legal standpoint they probably can't discuss the matter further or exactly mention what event broke the NDA.

You have essentially answered your own question.

Also, it is a little bit over a day now since the news broke. Perhaps the people directly involved are still discussing things at the glacial pace that is Real Life.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2010.07.09 07:50:00 - [385]
 

Originally by: Dr Lebroi

The question remains, will CCP fix the under lying problems or won't they?


Yes, the question is how and when. It's a matter of prioritization, we're competing for scarce resources. What I described is that we've made progress in getting an equal/better footing in competing for them.

Quote:

I can't really see how the CSM saying to the player base:-
'We know but we CAN'T tell you.’
is any better than CCP saying to the player base:-
'We know but we WON'T tell you.'


The difference is that nobody currently sitting on the CSM have been fanbois.
We all love the game, but most of us have been vocal critics of CCP, both on the forums and during face to face meetings.
As such, if you don't trust CCP, you have however every reason to believe us.

So there's things we can't say. But we can say what we think about it, to CCP and to you.
Exemple 1: Vuk Lau and I bashed the GMs during CSM 3 pretty hard about competence, consistency, fight against macroers, etc. (check the minutes) If these same people tell you now that the data we have shows conclusively that there has been a huge improvement and we're happy with what we see on all those fronts, you have every reason to believe us.
Exemple 2: We can't tell you what the next expansion is going to be about. We can tell you we think it has the potential of being awesome, we can also tell you we don't think that is where resources should have been focused.

Quote:

but why involve player representatives in the development secrets of the company if these very representatives have no real ability to influence the product development policy?
It’s like a man who makes fireworks telling his children where he keeps the matches.
If the player representatives do have the ability to influence product development policy then why are CCP not getting the message? Fix what we have already (a brilliant but flawed game) before you make anything new.


We have the ability to influence the development policy, to an extent.
It's always a balancing act, I can understand that CCP's objective may lean more towards getting new players than the existing players care about.
CCP understands that if we're unhappy about the game, we don't stay to play it.
We're there to talk about where the middle ground should be and what those things are that we care about when talking of improving the game as it is.

Quote:

How many people use Bots? They don’t pay to play Eve and appear to be largely un-stoppable.
If you were CCP, would you want to fix lag for these people? They cheat the game so they don’t have to pay for it.


They are, report them, GMs ban them regularly, whether they are connected to RMT or not. We've advised the GMs to make their efforts known, and they're doing so regularly (to quote a big report: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=687)

Quote:

[...]
New players bring in dollars without any pre-conceptions about the current state of the game. New players are attracted by marketing, marketing in turn must have a shiney to market so CCP are forced to regularly build said shiney to attract new players.

Maintaining/optimizing/upgrading a former shiney is not marketing news.

Hence Dust, hence Incarna.


I'm not a big fan of new and shiny, I campaigned on that, I've told CCP that.

It's always a balancing act, as I said before. CCP needs more players (and to be fair, so do we, in the long run), and they also want to keep those players and us. Our position has been that the balance is a more towards new than towards old.

I'm definitely in agreement with you here. The way I see it there's 2 options, complaining about it on the forums (which we all do), and talking about it constructively with CCP, which we do as well through the CSM. We can't coerce CCP to do anything, but they've shown in the past that they listen, and not only that, but they're giving us the tools to constructively influence the development.

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.07.09 08:02:00 - [386]
 

Edited by: Ban Doga on 09/07/2010 08:02:25
Originally by: Cobalt Sixty
Originally by: El'Niaga
Why they don't just come out and say that and stop the speculation I don't know.

Okay, now go back and read the first line in your own (and same) post:
Originally by: El'Niaga
Okay first off from a legal standpoint they probably can't discuss the matter further or exactly mention what event broke the NDA.

You have essentially answered your own question.

Also, it is a little bit over a day now since the news broke. Perhaps the people directly involved are still discussing things at the glacial pace that is Real Life.



Count to ten and calm down.
No need to attack every posting you don't understand immediately.

The requested behavior was to say "For legal reasons we cannot discuss exactly which event caused a breach of the agreed NDA" not to deliver a detailed report on what happened.

It's about saying that something will not happen instead of just not letting it happen.
People have it easier when they know "why" something is the way it is.

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.07.09 08:10:00 - [387]
 

Edited by: Ban Doga on 09/07/2010 08:12:08
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

Quote:

I can't really see how the CSM saying to the player base:-
'We know but we CAN'T tell you.’
is any better than CCP saying to the player base:-
'We know but we WON'T tell you.'


The difference is that nobody currently sitting on the CSM have been fanbois.
We all love the game, but most of us have been vocal critics of CCP, both on the forums and during face to face meetings.
As such, if you don't trust CCP, you have however every reason to believe us.



I think that's a bit short-sighted.
What reason is there to trust you?
Just because you did not agree with everything CCP did/does?

We know CSM members were selling their influence for PLEX, using insider knowledge to profit personally, violate NDAs.
Is that the basis on which we should unconditionally trust the CSM?

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

So there's things we can't say. But we can say what we think about it, to CCP and to you.
Exemple 1: Vuk Lau and I bashed the GMs during CSM 3 pretty hard about competence, consistency, fight against macroers, etc. (check the minutes) If these same people tell you now that the data we have shows conclusively that there has been a huge improvement and we're happy with what we see on all those fronts, you have every reason to believe us.
Exemple 2: We can't tell you what the next expansion is going to be about. We can tell you we think it has the potential of being awesome, we can also tell you we don't think that is where resources should have been focused.



But how is that different from the messages we get from CCP directly?
They always say the next expansion is going to be awesome.
They always say things are improving in the long run.

And the idea that resources should be put somewhere else is the whole point of the whole "Commit to Excellence" thread in the assembly hall. The number of supporters speaks volumes.
So really: which additional information does this provide?

*EDIT* fixed some failed quoting

Tyrophant
Posted - 2010.07.09 08:14:00 - [388]
 

Good riddance, Ankahasapeemapetilon. I hope CCP chooses to pursue legal action against you as fervently as you wanted to punish people in internet spaceships.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2010.07.09 08:30:00 - [389]
 

Violation of the NDA can be anything from a small indiscretion to a fellow EVE player about some coming feature to full blown industrial espionage. The farther it goes to the latter, the less likely we are going to get any more accurate information on it, at least until it got wrapped up and dealt with, if ever. We may read about it in the news, if it's big enough, albeit that is unlikely.

Xutech
Posted - 2010.07.09 09:42:00 - [390]
 

I wonder if the trouble she has gotten into might have something to do with the content of her portfolio?

If you recall, there was an advert during the Pvp tournament calling for more women to apply for a job at CCP.

Perhaps she overshared information (thats never happened before) from her current employer to her prospective new employer.

It would certainly explain why she was dropped so quickly, and why it would be in CCP's best interests to avoid looking connected to her, and to avoid public knowledge of what she has done.

Really, it would mean that anything that comes out in the future that hints at possible plagiarism would be grounds for a court case.

I could be wrong though.

Then again, she went so far as to consider a position on the CSM as defacto working for CCP.

Is if so hard to imagine that she wanted to bring her A game to a job interview?


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