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Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.07.01 10:46:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Backho

This is my Raven mission times.



Looks like there's a lot of blitzing in there.
For the purpose of meaningful comparisons, where all ships are killed, it's a little misleading.

Poeser Rufus
Posted - 2010.07.01 10:58:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Poeser Rufus on 01/07/2010 11:05:24
Edited by: Poeser Rufus on 01/07/2010 11:02:00
and you kill all ships in missions because of ... what?

ex:
Gone Berserk will be cleared by most mission runners, even though you won´t earn more by doing so, blitzing is exactly 1/3 of time and 1/3 of bounty (lose 2 frigs for a total of 120k isk)

@below:
thats my point, you can´t compare mission effectiveness when not running missions but ratting missions, this thread is about mission time not killing all there is time.

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.07.01 11:01:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Sturmwolke on 01/07/2010 11:20:28
To the poster above, didn't I just mention "..for the purpose of meaningful comparison .." ?

Ed: Err, dude, his 8 mins for Gone Berserk clearly reflects a full blitz.

Ed2: Say what again? You're not making sense. If I read this thread correctly, Backtho's response was in reply to PokinoCupra's challenge. So, by your books, it's allright to inanely compare blitzes vs clearing the field (as stated by PokinoCupra)?

Backho
Posted - 2010.07.01 11:15:00 - [34]
 

Who cares about not blitzing.

All i care is isk/hour. i want to mission as efficiently as possible. Killing all NPC's is stupid and unnecesary. The only reason you want me to kill all NPC's is because you lack the range to complete blitzing objectives.

I average out at 47.5m isk/hour (at 1K LP/isk, i do exchange for more most of the time).

Lets assume there is a mission
You can kill Battleship A, and get 47.5m isk/hour
OR
You can kill the bajillion battleships lined up to be killed, each having 450,000 (standard bounty).

I take 5 hits to kill a standard 450,000 bounty battleship.
This is 35 seconds, 36.5 including reload.
450,000 isk / 36.5 seconds translates to
44,383,561 isk/hour. Which is lower then my average isk/hour earning.
Therefore, its more profitable to ignore all non-mission objectives, because 47.5m > 44.4m (upper bound)

The reason it is upper bound is because, i will be forced to kill frigates, elite frigs, cruisers, elite cruisers, battlecruisers which all gives less ISK/hour if they are lined up to be killed.

This is made even worst as I pay 9k per shot on my faction missiles (assuming 1K isk/LP) which IS included in my isk/hour calculation.

TLDR
Ravens blitz better
Ravens gets more isk/hour
Tengu is better at killing npc's
Tengu gets less isk/hour

Now Raven > tengu
and CNR > Raven

IE CNR > Tengu in term of missioning efficiency

Dr Nefarius
Posted - 2010.07.01 11:28:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: PokinoCupra
Ok so lets say this.

L4 blockade,
0 jumps to mish.
total time 21 minutes in tengu.
ALL targets dead.
Your time in CNR?



Now I haven't run that mission for ages (using cruise CNR), but I think my time was around 25 minutes. I had pretty ****ty missiles skills (level 4 cruise missles, crappy support skills, using CN launchers, but t1 ammo). So your time is probably not on par with a CNR, even if that missions is against a kinetic-weak opponent.

Also, you are saying tengu is faster in the missions, and not just higher eft stats? Then why do you not care about reloading time, about having to slowly kill elite frigs, about having to use lowdamage-longrange missiles for targets further away?

And most importantly: kinetic damage < all damage types Rolling Eyes
That really makes it a no-brainer. Single damage type is useful if you are a ratter in a specific region. For missions, you will want to be able to switch damage type.

Just to make it easy, look at it this way. Look at tengu dps vs CNR missile dps. Now you might get a little higher number on the tengu. Then look at the ups and downs besides that.

tengu has 2 real ups against the CNR.
Align time and lock time. Align time does perhaps 20 seconds/mission in total. Lock time perhaps 3-4 seconds (CNR doesn't lock frigs).

CNR has a few ups against the tengu.
Insane range, it's just never an issue, pretty neat. No need to use longrange missiles with low dps, and always targets in range. This is great for the lazy missionrunner, and in many missions it will make your killing faster.

Drones, they will kill the frigates and destoyers without you having to lock or do anything, just release them. This is a BIG timesaver, I would say perhaps 2 minutes/average mission.

DPS not dependant on damage type. When you have to run missions against non-kinetic rats, the tengu will loose 20% of it's dps. Now that is a big drop in dps. Idea
And saying you only run missions against kinetic-weak rats, well thats your personal failure that others shouldn't have to repeat. Declining GREAT missions just because your ship sucks against them is not a good option. It WILL have a very noticable effect on your isk/hour. I would say this is my biggest issue with the tengu. Assume that half of your missions is against kinetic rats if you do missions in caldari/gallente space. Then you can just sweep away 10% of your tengu dps.......

Also, as has already been mentioned the tengu will need to reload more often, and will waste more volleys due to higher rof, and lower missile speed. This alone will likely put the tengus missile dps on par with CNR missles dps (before considering the issues mentioned above). Wink

Now, if you have a magic tengu which can do all damage types with high dps, has long enough range, drones, and never wastes a volley.... I be willing to offer good isk for it. ugh

/Dr Nefarius

Von Kapiche
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.01 11:31:00 - [36]
 

OP says:

Originally by: Drastic13
Im not talking about blitzing necessarily, cuz I salvage (just FYI)


I think that kinda assumes this comparison is about killing everything.

Could take some Extravaganza as a test, that's more or less kill everything whichever way you do it.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.07.01 11:38:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: PokinoCupra
and you want to tell me that you are getting 100% from your dps right?
No, but that's just the point: you're throwing out your DPS numbers as if they were universally applicable — people are telling you that they aren't and that in practical use, the (possibly) numerically lower DPS of some larger ships are far more applicable and end up being closer to what you actually deliver on target.
Quote:
even your drones are nonstop working on 100% right? :D
You know, the way I have them wired… pretty much, yeah. Razz

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2010.07.01 11:40:00 - [38]
 

While blitzing certainly is viable tactic, for some ppl it isnt best tactic, so if you want to share your mission times, type if its blitzed or cleared, so we can be sure.
Also - op asked about cnr and tengu - so post here only your times with cnr or tengu, avoid posting if you are flying other ships or some lolfits too with cccs and so.

And for all that theorycrafting about pros and cons - stop it, we all heard it and op still doesnt know how faster is cnr for l4s.

Id contribute with my times, but last misson i soloed and timed with tengu was like 3 months ago... /ae in 35mins, but not optimal skills and no implants/.


PokinoCupra
Posted - 2010.07.01 11:51:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: PokinoCupra on 01/07/2010 11:54:15
Edited by: PokinoCupra on 01/07/2010 11:53:49
Originally by: Dr Nefarius
Originally by: PokinoCupra
Ok so lets say this.

L4 blockade,
0 jumps to mish.
total time 21 minutes in tengu.
ALL targets dead.
Your time in CNR?



Now I haven't run that mission for ages (using cruise CNR), but I think my time was around 25 minutes.






yea for sure, with that damp all around, with speed of CNR while damped to catch rats....
or i guess u used 2 - 3x sensor boosters with targeting range scripts? then your tank is really lowered.
also you are changing hardeners for each mish. did you know that tengu can stand whatever mish in omni? :)

still are mishs boring as hell, you dont have to care about shield while in tengu and you can focus on more important things maybe :D

my time is calculated from moment i accepted mish and stopped counting when i returned.

im not accepting drone mishs because of no bounties, im not accepting caldari / amar ones because of standing loss. its your problem / choice if you do them.

but i have to admit that you will be faster in Massive Attack and in Serpentis spies :)


Dr Nefarius
Posted - 2010.07.01 12:43:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Dr Nefarius on 01/07/2010 12:55:12
Edited by: Dr Nefarius on 01/07/2010 12:53:22
Edited by: Dr Nefarius on 01/07/2010 12:44:21
Originally by: PokinoCupra
Edited by: PokinoCupra on 01/07/2010 11:54:15
Edited by: PokinoCupra on 01/07/2010 11:53:49
Originally by: Dr Nefarius
Originally by: PokinoCupra
Ok so lets say this.

L4 blockade,
0 jumps to mish.
total time 21 minutes in tengu.
ALL targets dead.
Your time in CNR?



Now I haven't run that mission for ages (using cruise CNR), but I think my time was around 25 minutes.






yea for sure, with that damp all around, with speed of CNR while damped to catch rats....
or i guess u used 2 - 3x sensor boosters with targeting range scripts? then your tank is really lowered.
also you are changing hardeners for each mish. did you know that tengu can stand whatever mish in omni? :)

still are mishs boring as hell, you dont have to care about shield while in tengu and you can focus on more important things maybe :D

my time is calculated from moment i accepted mish and stopped counting when i returned.

im not accepting drone mishs because of no bounties, im not accepting caldari / amar ones because of standing loss. its your problem / choice if you do them.

but i have to admit that you will be faster in Massive Attack and in Serpentis spies :)




I usually didn't have the serpentis version of blockade, since I wasn't restricted to a small part of eve.. Laughing They are however comparable in the ammounts of rats.
Also, I didn't swap hardeners, I used an omnitank. And yes I used this to run angel extra bonus room, and enemies abound 5/5. Razz

My times also include everything, including docking etc....

edit:
massive attack and serpentis spies..... Neutral
I don't run ****ty missions.. you see I don't have to accept all serpentis/guristas missions because of damage types ugh

second edit: caldari/amarr missions... LaughingLaughingLaughing
ehhmm.. with other damage type rats, I talk about angels, sansha, blood raiders, drones, mercenaries. I was not talking about the empire factions.

third edit: So I like edits and smilies. Big woop, wanna fight about it? Razz

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.01 13:41:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: PokinoCupra
Ok so lets say this.

L4 blockade,
0 jumps to mish.
total time 21 minutes in tengu.
ALL targets dead.
Your time in CNR?



According to this person, 22m 52s for Angel Blockade. http://eve-search.com/thread/1094787/page/2#51

And that's without T2 launchers/ammo, so there's a lot of room for improvement. This person times from warp-in to warp-out and you timed from undock to dock, IIRC, so we can probably knock about 1.5 to 2 minutes off your Tengu time.


CNR times from the post:
Quote:

All my Times are done with T1 missiles. I have run each of these missions a minimum of 3 times and averaged the times. Times are done from warp in to warp out, and i included travel time for picking up mission items. Some missions my not be listed because on those i just blitzed them so it won't be a fair comparison.

TimeMissionNotes

14m 46sThe ScoreSerpentis
2m 49sSlave traders 1/2Sansha
5m 30s2/2Sansha
12m 24sPirate InvasionAngel
19m 56sMordus Headhunters
1m 41sWar Situation 1/2Amarr
6m 18s2/2Amarr
13m 14sSilence the Informant
22m 52sBlockadeAngel
8m 31sFordu's Folly 1/2
32m 53sThe AssaultSerpentis
4m 54sZazz
9m 20sIntercept the Sabatuers
25m 30sVengenceAngel
9m 26sRecon 1/3Angel
11m 52sDamsel in Distress
16m 37sMassive AttackSerpentis
11m 35sGone Berserk
5m 23sStop the Thief
7m 43sRogue Drone Harrassment
3m 23sAngel Cartel SpiesAngel
11m 37sUnautherized MilitaryAngel
13m 36sSmuggler Interception
42m 16sAngel ExtravaganzaAngel with the bonus room
14m 32s Buzz Kill


Noemi Nagano
Posted - 2010.07.01 14:09:00 - [42]
 

honestly, i am a BIG fan of the Tengu - since I got mine I fly it in nearly all missions (at least vs. kinetic enemies ;) ). It kills fast, it flies fast, it doesnt need refit and it feels fun for me.

Still: a maxed out CNR will be faster in many missions, esp. when there are many BS and/or many Elite Frigs.

In my opinion Torp-Golem, Cruise-CNR and HML-Tengu are all three of use, but if you want only 1 single ship for all l4 missions AND take the fastest ship for the job, its got to be a Cruise-CNR.

Nimsir
Posted - 2010.07.01 14:32:00 - [43]
 

I'll add my 2 cents worth into the conversation.

First lets look at the missile damage from both ships. (using +5 damage and ROF implants).

Tengu: 790dps
4 x CN BCU
6 x T2 HML with T2 Fury ammo

CNR: 775dps
4x CN BCU
7 x CN Cruise launchers with Caldari faction ammo

or,

CNR: 838dps
4 x CN BCU
7 x T2 Cruise with T2 fury ammo

No HAM Tengu because (no offense to Pokino) they suck outside of EFT.

As you can see, the damage from both ships is pretty even when it comes to strait EFT missile damage. So lets look at what makes these ships different.

Missile explosion radius. On my Tengu setup I run 1 T2 rigor and 1 T1 rigor. With skills at 5 and a +5 implant, this brings my explosion radius down to 104. This is giving full damage on cruiser and higher even with T2 Fury missiles. With the CNR if you are running 1 T2 rigor and 2 T1 rigors, with a +5 implant and all skills 5, this gives the Fury ammo a radius of 226, and with faction ammo 123. Faction is going to be pretty close to full damage on cruiser and higher, while T2 ammo is going to suck on cruisers, but be fine on BC and BS.

Now just looking at these numbers, you would probably choose the Tengu as the better ship as it does better damage to more class of ships, but hang on just a second, lets look at the Tengu's weaknesses. 1 damage type and no drones.

I don't run drone missions, and don't run that many Sansha or Blood Raider missions, so the one damage type is not a big deal to me, but if you run lots of missions in Amarr space, this could be a big deal, and clearly the CNR is a better choice for Amarr space mission running.

As for not having drones, targeting and killing frigs is going to bring your mission completion times up, no question about it. How much is going to depend on what mission. And how you choose to deal with them

So the CNR is faster for all missions right? Well not necessarily.

Lets look at the Tengu's strengths. Speed, Tank, and Targeting.

Speed, I don't know why this hasn't been brought up more in this thread, but there are missions where the Tengu's speed is a huge advantage. Worlds Collide anyone? I would bet that a skilled Tengu pilot can have the gate unlocked before most CNR pilots are even in lock range of the rats. There are a few other missions that I run regularly that the Tengu has a big advantage in getting to gates much quicker than a CNR. Its also gaining a few seconds at each gate, and now that CCP has us jumping to more systems to run our missions these are seconds that the Tengu is gaining on the CNR

Tank, Nobody in there right mind is going to say that a CNR has a tank even close to a Tengu. This isn't a huge deal to most experienced mission runners, but it is an advantage the Tengu has.

Targeting, this is only an advantage in a few missions, but having a base targeting range of 115k and much higher scan resolution can be nice.

Bottom line is, I would give an overall slight edge to the CNR if you are running missions solo, but there are missions the Tengu is going to be faster, and I just prefer it over the slow no fun CNR.


Honest Smedley
Posted - 2010.07.01 14:55:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Nimsir
...
6 x T2 HML with T2 Fury ammo
...
7 x CN Cruise launchers with Caldari faction ammo
...
7 x T2 Cruise with T2 fury ammo

Do people really use T2 or faction ammo for missioning when range isn't an issue?
Or do they just set it up that way in EFT for 'teh hai DPSes'?

Goose99
Posted - 2010.07.01 15:03:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Honest Smedley
Originally by: Nimsir
...
6 x T2 HML with T2 Fury ammo
...
7 x CN Cruise launchers with Caldari faction ammo
...
7 x T2 Cruise with T2 fury ammo

Do people really use T2 or faction ammo for missioning when range isn't an issue?
Or do they just set it up that way in EFT for 'teh hai DPSes'?


Depends on ammo consumption rate. They use best faction for Arty/tach/torp and sometimes cruise, the additional speed means more isk/hr and more than pays for the ammo. But no one can afford it for AC, and it's an isk loser.

Backho
Posted - 2010.07.01 15:04:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Backho on 01/07/2010 15:09:17
Quote:
L4 blockade,
0 jumps to mish.
total time 21 minutes in tengu.
ALL targets dead.
Your time in CNR?


The Blockade (amarr space, weak to EM)
Strategy: Jump in, use a core X afterburner boat away. snipe ONLY TRIGGERS AND BATTLESHIPS

Total time : 9 minutes
Bounty 8.7m (out of 19.5m total)
Mission rewards
2.8m isk + 7k LP = 9.8m

ISK/hour = 123.3333m isk/hour

Yours
Total time : 21 minutes
Bounty 19.5m
2.8m isk + 7k LP (similar nego+connections) = 9.8m

ISK/hour = 83.7143m isk/hour.

Raven > Tengu.

again.

As i said.
If you use CNR and shoot all targets, you are just wasting ammo and lowering your overall profits.
Its like using a battlecruiser in a lv 1 mission. a total waste of time. Use the ships like they are supposed to be used.

Caldari missions are LARGEly themed on sniping blitz objectives 70-100km away (almost 30-50%). If you mission in caldari space and NOT snipe, you can only dream of getting high ISK/hour.

TLDR: Use a ship like they are supposed to be used. dont be stupid. Raven has a 113km range to shoot. use it.

Jaxkon Lee
Galactic Trade Industriez
Posted - 2010.07.01 15:14:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Jaxkon Lee on 01/07/2010 15:19:13
Originally by: Honest Smedley
Originally by: Nimsir
...
6 x T2 HML with T2 Fury ammo
...
7 x CN Cruise launchers with Caldari faction ammo
...
7 x T2 Cruise with T2 fury ammo

Do people really use T2 or faction ammo for missioning when range isn't an issue?
Or do they just set it up that way in EFT for 'teh hai DPSes'?

yes. Liang made the argument and I followed the advice and.......Profit!
faction isnt really that high and faster missions are faster isk...
T2 is so nice and cheap too.
I fly a skilled out torp golem over my cnr and also have a tengu...all Liangs fits. very win.. 64k range in a golem is a limitation in maybe 5 missions for 30~40 seconds.sometimes I trade out to cnr. Only use tengu in maybe 3 missions. alot of good advice that makes missioning a real isk maker. even with broken salvage its hard not to love the golem. but this thread isnt about the win that it is. I just want to add that t2 and faction ammo is widely used by mission runners.
edited to add tengu I only use t1 ammo... that thing shoots too fast, with 2 rigorsfrigs pop fast and you waste alot of ammo. cnr shines with CN faction cruises and golem t2 ammo always.

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2010.07.01 15:21:00 - [48]
 

You are wrong bakho, this would be true only if your every mission was blockade. Gl with that. Not to say there is big difference between liquid isk and lp. And theres no question if tengu is better than standard raven /it is/, we are talking about cnr here.

Btw you can warp to 100k in blockade, i think you can use mwd there too.

Also op stated that he is not interested in blitzing, so you are not helping him much.



Backho
Posted - 2010.07.01 15:40:00 - [49]
 

quoting
Quote:
Assuming both are tricked out with nice mods... How much better for fast killing Lvl 4's is a CNR over a Tengu? Im not talking about blitzing necessarily, cuz I salvage (just FYI)


not talking about blitzing necessarily is NOT equal to i dont want to blitz.

Secondly, although all missions are not salvage, im only cranking the numbers to the hour to make everything standardized.

I did say before. My average is 45m-50m isk/hour. My efficiency is approximately 83% on usual 6 hour runs (that means my overall isk/hour is 83% of the theoratical average of the times of the missions i do)

That means my stated missions time will averag at 57.2m isk/hour.

Sure. they will be 120m isk/hour lasting 9 minutes (blockade.
There is also 100m isk/hour missions lasting 11 minutes (recon 1/1)
There will be 80m isk/hour missions lasting 6 minutes (roflattackofthedrone)

Then there is the 50m isk/hour missions lasting 22 minutes (gurista extravaganza)

and 40m isk/hour missions lasting 25+ minutes (vengeance, angel extravaganza).

But when i pick the weighted average (total(mission earning(times)/total(times)), and multiply it by 0.83, it is 47.5m isk/hour.

TLDR. answering the OP
1) Which of those is faster at finishing missions
it is raven
2) which of those will faster clear missions
it is raven
3) which of those will faster earn money
it is raven.

4) So-if-i-dont-care-about-isk-and-i-dont-care-about-completion-times-and-i-also-want-to-change-ships-to-salvage-and-kill-every-ship-in-my-way-ignoring-the-efficient-way-of-missioning-and-wasting-my-time-earning-less-money-while-spending-more-money-on-a-less-cost-efficient-ship

it is the tengu


XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Posted - 2010.07.01 15:49:00 - [50]
 

ITT proof that lvl 4 missions still provide too much isk for little risk

Nerf Lvl 4s more Twisted Evil

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.07.01 15:59:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Backho
Post #49


Methodologies and ship-to-ship comparisons are two different things, and you're confusing these two.
Your post is not valid.

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2010.07.01 16:09:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Backho
...


Op didnt ask if its better to blitz or not, if its better to run mission for bounties or lp, so most of the things you said in your post are pointless in this thread. Im not going to argue what is better here, i just pointed to thing, that your isk/h numbers are possible only if every mission you get is blockade.

And some also people pointed you should write if mission was blitzed or not, so we can compare them.

Btw you mean caldari navy raven, not just raven. Standard raven is poor ship compared to the tengu.

Quote:
Im not talking about blitzing necessarily, cuz I salvage (just FYI)

I assume this means he doesnt want to know which ship is better for blitzing, but which ship is generally better for clearing missions. Makes sense if you consider he probably has low sp alt that sits in destroyer and salvages completed missions while main clears new one, but he still blitzes some missions that have worthless loot or salvage.


Backho
Posted - 2010.07.01 16:16:00 - [53]
 

And im saying my isk/hour is a weighted average of all missions, not only blockade.

And i never timed myself in a CNR, simply because its mostly abit better times, and my LP payout per isk * LP generated is maximised, which, yes, roofs at around 57m isk/hour constant

Im just copy pasting from my spreadsheet when i started missioning, and,like most folks who just started, write down every single isk, isk obtained, times, LP obtained, etc etc etc.

So yes. if you cant beat a raven's isk/hour on 3m SP, you wont beat a CNR with All V+5% implants. EVER.

TLDR:
1) My calculation of isk/hour is a weighted average of all caldari's mission
2) Killing everything is completely inferior to blitzing. Unless you are an M.

Nimsir
Posted - 2010.07.01 16:18:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Honest Smedley
Originally by: Nimsir
...
6 x T2 HML with T2 Fury ammo
...
7 x CN Cruise launchers with Caldari faction ammo
...
7 x T2 Cruise with T2 fury ammo

Do people really use T2 or faction ammo for missioning when range isn't an issue?
Or do they just set it up that way in EFT for 'teh hai DPSes'?


If you're using heavy launchers and you aren't using fury ammo most of the time, you are doing it wrong.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.01 16:33:00 - [55]
 

I'll see if I can get around to it. It'll be a PITA to go get a Serp Blockade though considering I don't live in Gallente space and I'm not welcome in high sec anymore... Twisted Evil

-Liang

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2010.07.01 16:38:00 - [56]
 

Whether is blitzing better than farming bounties or not is completely irrelevant for this thread.

I was talking about this :

Originally by: Backho
ISK/hour = 123.3333m isk/hour


...which isnt true /its irrelevant too for this thread, i just didnt want you to mislead other people/.
Its also hard to believe that with 3m sp, raven and 1000 isk/lp you can get anywhere near 45m/h, but tbh i dont care and i wont continue in this offtopic.




McRoll
Minmatar
Heatseekers
Posted - 2010.07.01 17:04:00 - [57]
 

There's one thing in favor of the Tengu, its that you dont have to skill cruise missiles to fly it. Cruises are **** and only useful for missions in said CNR. Once you sit in a marauder you probably wont ever use them again.

Also, with the times posted, is it that important for you to finish a mission 3 minutes faster? The differences arent that big it seems. So considering that it takes you maybe a couple more minutes with the Tengu I'd go for it because you can make an excellent plex runner out of it and dont have to train cruises.

This is considering you fight mostly close range enemies. If you regularly have to shoot >50 km then CNR obviously.


Nimsir
Posted - 2010.07.01 17:07:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Backho
2) Killing everything is completely inferior to blitzing. Unless you are an M.



This is completely wrong for many cases, and I'll back it up with math.

Lets take 'Gone Berserk' as our example.

I'm going to assume, you are getting around 4k LP from that mission (I think the max you can get in high sec is around 4300), and between bounties and reward, about 5 mill in isk., so lets call it 9 million isk for a mission that you claim is taking you 8 minutes. Thats about 1.12 million isk per minute. That means that to make it profitable to stay in the mission and kill the other 2/3s of the rats you would have to make at least the 1.12 mil per minute.

In my Tengu it takes 3 volleys to kill the 100k cruisers, 6 volleys to kill the 500k BS, 7 for the 750k BS, and 9 for the 1m BS. The ROF for a Tengu is 3.65 seconds, and we will add an extra second to switch targets and start firing, So the total time to kill a cruiser is about 12 seconds, 500k BS 23 seconds, 750k BS 27 seconds, and 1m BS 34 seconds.

The total number of rats would be

6 cruisers, 72 seconds, 600k
4 BS 500k, 92 seconds, 2m
4 BS 750k, 108 seconds, 3m
2 BS 1m, 68 seconds, 2m

346 seconds + 2 reloads 366 seconds, or 6:06

7.6 mil / 6.1 = 1.24mil per minute

or,

9 million for 8 minutes of mission vs. 16.6 million for 14:06 of mission.

Disclaimer: all the 'gone berserk' numbers were from memory, so don't kill me if they are wrong.

I'm not saying its always better to kill everything, but sometimes it is.




Ace2001
Caldari
S E A R
Posted - 2010.07.01 17:12:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Ace2001 on 01/07/2010 17:15:30
Edited by: Ace2001 on 01/07/2010 17:14:49
Originally by: Sturmwolke
Originally by: Backho
Post #49


Methodologies and ship-to-ship comparisons are two different things, and you're confusing these two.
Your post is not valid.


Not only post #49, but his earlier post, number 46, is incorrect as well:

Originally by: Backho
Edited by: Backho on 01/07/2010 15:09:17
Quote:
L4 blockade,
0 jumps to mish.
total time 21 minutes in tengu.
ALL targets dead.
Your time in CNR?


The Blockade (amarr space, weak to EM)
Strategy: Jump in, use a core X afterburner boat away. snipe ONLY TRIGGERS AND BATTLESHIPS

Total time : 9 minutes
Bounty 8.7m (out of 19.5m total)
Mission rewards
2.8m isk + 7k LP = 9.8m

ISK/hour = 123.3333m isk/hour

Yours
Total time : 21 minutes
Bounty 19.5m
2.8m isk + 7k LP (similar nego+connections) = 9.8m

ISK/hour = 83.7143m isk/hour.

Raven > Tengu.

again.


The important parts are in bold. You can't compare killing every single ship mission completion time to blitzing. Complete to complete, blitz to blitz, otherwise no real argument.

Originally by: Backho
TLDR: Use a ship like they are supposed to be used. dont be stupid. Raven has a 113km range to shoot. use it.


That's not entirely accurate. The only way you can get up to 113km range is by using mods/skills. (Hell, with my skills and no targeting mods my Raven only targets up to 90km.)

Edit:

Originally by: Nimsir

The total number of rats would be

6 cruisers, 72 seconds, 600k
4 BS 500k, 92 seconds, 2m
4 BS 750k, 108 seconds, 3m
2 BS 1m, 68 seconds, 2m

346 seconds + 2 reloads 366 seconds, or 6:06

7.6 mil / 6.1 = 1.24mil per minute

or,

9 million for 8 minutes of mission vs. 16.6 million for 14:06 of mission.

Disclaimer: all the 'gone berserk' numbers were from memory, so don't kill me if they are wrong.



You're forgetting one thing though; while the isk per minute might be about the same, he's already got the LP for that mission and has moved on to another, so depending on how much lp/isk ratio he gets, that'd bump his earnings up a bit more.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.01 17:12:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: McRoll
There's one thing in favor of the Tengu, its that you dont have to skill cruise missiles to fly it. Cruises are **** and only useful for missions in said CNR. Once you sit in a marauder you probably wont ever use them again.


Except for the part where the CNR is better than the Golem in many ways... ;-)

Quote:
Also, with the times posted, is it that important for you to finish a mission 3 minutes faster? The differences arent that big it seems. So considering that it takes you maybe a couple more minutes with the Tengu I'd go for it because you can make an excellent plex runner out of it and dont have to train cruises.


Suppose your mission pays 15 mil in bounties and 7000 LP @ 1500 ISK/LP and 1.5M in reward+bonus. The total reward for the mission is then 27 mil. 27 mil in 22 minutes vs 19 minutes is 73.6M ISK/hr vs 85.3M ISK/hr [+11.6M ISK/hr!]. Of course, an equally important part of your mission grind is not spending so freaking much time docked - so the things that you can do to alleviate that cost will help immensely. :)

Quote:
This is considering you fight mostly close range enemies. If you regularly have to shoot >50 km then CNR obviously.


Back when I was missioning in Gallente space (last year?) I did a breakdown of missions best done in Golem vs CNR... about 40% of the missions are better done in a CNR, and of those the difference is profound enough that the CNR easily is the better mission runner across a given stretch of missions.

-Liang


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